View Full Version : A few questions on giant squids
ace1422001
Mar 08, '06, 6:04pm
I just heard about the giant squid being caught on camera (Very Cool) and was wondering if anyone has tried to repeat this since then. Is it palsable that a tracking device could be attched if another one is caught? Lastly, is there anywhere on the net that I can see the moive tape of giant getting caught for free?
Thanks for Help
Tintenfisch
Mar 08, '06, 6:15pm
Hi Ace...
Unfortunately there's no video footage, but there are about 550 still shots, so you can get a pretty good freeze-frame idea of the escape. The news itself is discussed midway through this thread (http://www.tonmo.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1308), starting on about Page 5 (http://www.tonmo.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1308&page=5). There are definitely plans to repeat this soon (although no one has done it since). Regarding attaching a tag, logistical suggestions are welcome. :wink:
ace1422001
Mar 08, '06, 11:07pm
I was reading on the fact sheets that sprem whales in the antartic are thought to primarly feed on the large spices of squid that live there. Has anyone ever tried to place tracking devices (or maybe a camera) on the whales and follow it to the location one of these squid? This seems logical to me but way too easiy never to have been tried or maybe I have just watched too many sic fi moives where this would be considered easy. Also, what do sprem whales have that humans lack? These whales seen to be able to find giant squid eaily enough why can't we?
monty
Mar 08, '06, 11:49pm
I was reading on the fact sheets that sprem whales in the antartic are thought to primarly feed on the large spices of squid that live there. Has anyone ever tried to place tracking devices (or maybe a camera) on the whales and follow it to the location one of these squid? This seems logical to me but way too easiy never to have been tried or maybe I have just watched too many sic fi moives where this would be considered easy. Also, what do sprem whales have that humans lack? These whales seen to be able to find giant squid eaily enough why can't we?
I think Clyde Roper tried this a few years back, without success. Here's an old article on it: http://www.si.edu/opa/InsideResearch/9684/9684squi.htm
google can probably ferret out the results: no squids seen.
Graeme
Mar 09, '06, 4:45am
Are Architeuthis dux's mantles "solid" enough to allow tags to be fitted?
Graeme
Euprymna
Mar 09, '06, 8:26am
Are Architeuthis dux's mantles "solid" enough to allow tags to be fitted?
Graeme
some tags have been placed whithin the mantle cavity of many species of cephs (see the work of Ron O'Dor) . Not only they can give you a position but also can provide data on jet pressure when swimming, which can be converted into oxygen consumption and give you good data on their energetics in their natural environment! quite amazing!
The problem with archie or messie i guess would be to catch them alive without damaging it, then keep them alive and try placing the tag on them while they are trying to go back in the water :bugout: quite difficult I would guess. UNless you anaesthetize them...
Wish we were at that stage!
eups
some tags have been placed whithin the mantle cavity of many species of cephs (see the work of Ron O'Dor) . Not only they can give you a position but also can provide data on jet pressure when swimming, which can be converted into oxygen consumption and give you good data on their energetics in their natural environment! quite amazing!
The problem with archie or messie i guess would be to catch them alive without damaging it, then keep them alive and try placing the tag on them while they are trying to go back in the water :bugout: quite difficult I would guess. UNless you anaesthetize them...
Wish we were at that stage!
eups
William Gilly talked about his progress doing this sort of thing with humboldts at TONMOcon, as well. Bu they're pretty beefy squids, so there's no problem finding a good place for the sensors, and they're routinely caught by fisherman, so there are both opportunities to tag and people who are happy to be paid to bring the recovered tags back... I'd think that even Architeuthis is not so flabby that it would have problems with tags, though, although some of the gelatinous cephs might be more problematic...
Euprymna
Mar 09, '06, 2:40pm
William Gilly talked about his progress doing this sort of thing with humboldts at TONMOcon, as well. Bu they're pretty beefy squids, so there's no problem finding a good place for the sensors, and they're routinely caught by fisherman, so there are both opportunities to tag and people who are happy to be paid to bring the recovered tags back... I'd think that even Architeuthis is not so flabby that it would have problems with tags, though, although some of the gelatinous cephs might be more problematic...
Also I guess it would be problematic to do some telemetry study with those mesopelagic gelatinous cephs since you will have to release them to their respective depth and could not throw them at the surface and expect them to go down and behave naturally. Anyway, their chance of being eaten on the way down is relatively big!
This would involve ROV deployment and so on...money money..
Humboldts are good since they come up at night for you to put the tags and then they naturally go down to this oxygen minimum layer where they hang out. why??
eups
Steve O'Shea
Mar 09, '06, 2:48pm
The problem with archie or messie i guess would be to catch them alive without damaging it, ......
..... or IT damaging you!!
ace1422001
Mar 09, '06, 6:16pm
The problem with archie or messie i guess would be to catch them alive without damaging it, then keep them alive and try placing the tag on them while they are trying to go back in the water :bugout: quite difficult I would guess. UNless you anaesthetize them...
Wish we were at that stage!
Why can't a one anaesthetize? If giant squid could be hooked again then why not just rig something up that would inject with something that would put it to sleep then tag it. Let me guess it easier said then done.
Why can't a one anaesthetize? If giant squid could be hooked again then why not just rig something up that would inject with something that would put it to sleep then tag it. Let me guess it easier said then done.
Sounds like a job for Marlin Perkins' poor assistant Jim.... "My assistant Jim will now go and wrestle the tranquilized crocodile into the net. Oh, it looks like the tranquilizer has worn off..." "Having shot the tiger with the dart, Jim will now go poke it with his finger to see if it's completely asleep..." "We've never seen a live colossal squid before, so we've provided Jim with a needle and some tranquilizer that usually works on elephants. Go to it, Jim!"
(see http://www.jumptheshark.com/w/mutualofomahaswildkingdom.htm if you have no idea what I'm talking about)
Castor
Mar 09, '06, 8:29pm
I know exactally what you're talking about, Monty. I used to be glued to that program everytime it aired. Shame it wasn't continued in another form. Sure, there are plenty of other shows on television(great in their own right) but they're no wild kingdom. :(
Ta
Graeme
Mar 10, '06, 10:47am
How on earth do you keep a gaint squid still while trying to insert a tracker into it!?!?!?!?
"Right, stay! stay!... no, no no!! STAY! goood boooy, well done, who's a big squid!? here's a lollypop. Right off ye go!"
Sounds a bit difficult if you ask me...
RKD
bobwonderbuns
Mar 10, '06, 10:50am
that's how I'd do it...:wink:
ace1422001
Mar 10, '06, 9:22pm
How on earth do you keep a gaint squid still while trying to insert a tracker into it!?!?!?!?
"Right, stay! stay!... no, no no!! STAY! goood boooy, well done, who's a big squid!? here's a lollypop. Right off ye go!"
Sounds a bit difficult if you ask me...
RKD
Why not pump it full of drugs? Or stun it with eletricty?
um...
Mar 10, '06, 10:58pm
Or play it audio of Alan Greenspan delivering an economic forecast to Congress?
:sleeping:
bigGdelta
Mar 11, '06, 12:20am
we want to anesthetize it, not put it inot a permanent coma.
There are really big issues with animal anaesthesia. What works for one species may kill another (or you when things go wrong!). For example you can use a certain sedative on elephants (I forget which) and it sedates nicely, but try on a rhino and it gets very aggressive.
We use aqui-S (a clove oil derivative) and various magnesium compounds in the aquarium and we have to be extremely careful with dosage. The slightest overdose and you kill the critter ESPECIALLY molluscs. I would hazard a guess that Messie would need more than Archie as I reckon it would have the more aggro temprement (although I could be wrong :grin: whaddaya reckon Steve? Kat?) and I shudder to think of the amount of sedative you would need!!!!
J
bigGdelta
Mar 11, '06, 11:18pm
Sounds like that project would call for lots of disposa.....I mean volunteer assistants. "And now Jim will enter the tank with the sleeping messie"
Sounds like that project would call for lots of disposa.....I mean volunteer assistants. "And now Jim will enter the tank with the sleeping messie"
Hmmmmmmm we have 4 foreign volunteers at the moment :twisted:
J
Then again, there's no neuron on earth we know more of than the squid neuron; defining the best way to anaesthasize these critters should be a piece of cake, right?
Still better, go down there with a sub and (non jiggy) lure and lights and an omnimax camera :grin:
ace1422001
Mar 13, '06, 3:50pm
So anaesthasize could be difficult, so why not give it a muscle relaxant so it dose not move or movement is greatly reduced. I have heard of electrocuting fish just enough to stun them for research why cant this be done on a squid. They only need to hold still long enough to be tagged how hard can it be?
So anaesthasize could be difficult, so why not give it a muscle relaxant so it dose not move or movement is greatly reduced. I have heard of electrocuting fish just enough to stun them for research why cant this be done on a squid. They only need to hold still long enough to be tagged how hard can it be?
If the mantle doesn't contract.....the squid doesn't breathe!
j
I think this whole excercise would become academic if only we knew how to get the squid's attention in the first place: attaching a tag only requires close contact, not so much complete immobilization, although it would certainly help. Then again, what type of tag are we looking at? One that goes "ping!"? Radio doesn't work underwater...
I think this whole excercise would become academic if only we knew how to get the squid's attention in the first place: attaching a tag only requires close contact, not so much complete immobilization, although it would certainly help. Then again, what type of tag are we looking at? One that goes "ping!"? Radio doesn't work underwater...
sonar does tho! Ron O'Dor has attached satelite tags to squid (into the mantle cavity) And Jayson Semmens has used pingers on octopus and squid in Tasmania (requires a network of receivers tho')
In the larger squid I'd like them reasonably immobile while I attached a tag......these beggars bite and it's unpleasant and the damage to you can be disportionaly large compared to the squid. Also their skin is delicate and a struggling animal is likely to injure itself easily, capture damage can very often be fatal which kinda spoils the research AND gets the ethics committee rather riled up!!!
Cheers
J
Kohlis
Mar 14, '06, 5:58am
Do we know what the big ones eat? Other squid, I've heard? Maybe you could prepare some nice bait for them to eat, and secretly insert some tracking device into it? That way, the animal would take care of the insertion itself, without anesthesia or electric shocks, and the volunteers wouldn't have to wrestle.
I figure it like this: Take a tasty, medium sized squid, put a radio/sonar/ping/pongtransmitter thingamajig in the mantle cavity and lower it on a string into the abyss. Maybe put some hooks on it too, so it sticks in the giants tummy for some time. These hooks should be biodegradable and fall apart after a while, so that the device can come out the back door.
Then, the device floats up to the surface to be collected, full of exciting information. Neat, aint it?
cheers - Erik
Euprymna
Mar 14, '06, 8:34am
Then again, what type of tag are we looking at? One that goes "ping!"? Radio doesn't work underwater...
Yeah a pinger but there are many types of taggs that have been developed to work underwater and that have been used for cephalopods. If you are interested, check www.vemco.com for some example of telemetry equipments for marine animals.
There are tags that:
1) send out a signal in response to a signal - transponders,
2) store data that can be recovered on recapture - archival tags,
3) signal its position with radio or acoustic pulses - pingers,
4) encode information in continuous signals - telemetry tags,
5) store information for release when saturated - radio pop-up tags etc...
It is true that radio-frequencies, are rapidly absorbed as it passes
through even a few centimeters of seawater but acoustic
frequencies pass easily through water and Ron O'Dor has been mainly using RAPT tags (Radio Acoustic Positioning Telemetry) to track squid octo, cuttle, nauilus. As Jean said you need receivers though!
But it's really amazing that with this technology you can know where they go and what propels them by telemetering jet pressure! and thus by calibrating jet pressure with oxygen consumption in respirometers know how much energy they consume...check this article for a recent example of such study:
http://www.scirus.com/srsapp/search?q=secret+AND+life+AND+apama&t=all&ds=jnl&ds=web&drill=yes&sss=jnl
As i understand, the main challenges in developing more efficient tags is their sizes. For Archi or messie...it shouldn't be a problem! we could put a mobile phone in there no prob!
I figure it like this: Take a tasty, medium sized squid, put a radio/sonar/ping/pongtransmitter thingamajig in the mantle cavity and lower it on a string into the abyss. Maybe put some hooks on it too, so it sticks in the giants tummy for some time. These hooks should be biodegradable and fall apart after a while, so that the device can come out the back door.
Then, the device floats up to the surface to be collected, full of exciting information. Neat, aint it?
Yeah, they do it for deep water fish that you cannot bring back to the surface due to swimbladder problems! But the prob with inserting the tag like for cephs this is that unlike fish, they do not swallow prey whole because their oesophaguses pass through the middle of their brain! Only a large archie could swallow a finger sized tag without completely destroying it in small pieces!
eups
Kohlis
Mar 14, '06, 10:03am
What is an oesophagus, and what is it doing in the brain?
ace1422001
Mar 14, '06, 11:09am
So the use of drugs on a squid is too risky. So whats wrong with electrocuting them to stun them then bring it to the surface and instaling a tag.
What is an oesophagus, and what is it doing in the brain?
The oesophagus is the bit of the GE tract between mouth and stomach: in case of squid the "brain" (for want of a better word) is quasi donut shaped surrounding the oesopagus on its way into the mantle....
See in Green:
Steve O'Shea
Mar 14, '06, 1:28pm
Also their skin is delicate and a struggling animal is likely to injure itself easily, capture damage can very often be fatal which kinda spoils the research AND gets the ethics committee rather riled up!!!
.... yet we can stick a trawl through them and wipe out thousands! Rather bizarre situation really.
Tintenfisch
Mar 14, '06, 2:14pm
Regarding the oesophagus, yes, the problem would be getting a tag through it intact - it is quite a small tube (relatively speaking - for Meso and Archi, about the size of your thumb). But on the other hand, it must be pretty stretchy, since we have found bits of things in the stomach (caecum) that look like they shouldn't have fit through. For example, yesterday I found a little M. ingens (about 12cm total length) where fully 1/3 of its weight was comprised of gut contents, which proved to be the remains of another squid of the same size! ... Chopped into bite-size pieces, of course, but what was interesting was that large pieces of the victim's arms were still hanging together by membranes; imaging swallowing a series of large meatballs (whole) strung together by strands of spaghetti. Very strange. And man, are they mean little beasties. :shock:
.... yet we can stick a trawl through them and wipe out thousands! Rather bizarre situation really.
Totally. BUT as far as I know the fishing industry hasn't got an ethics committee :hmm:
J
Euprymna
Mar 16, '06, 11:57am
imaging swallowing a series of large meatballs (whole) strung together by strands of spaghetti.
Very Nice analogy :lol: !!
How do they do it? With the help of the radula?
eups