Today I managed to talk with a man at Carlsbad Aquafarm who knew about the status of Octopets.

Octopets is no longer at the Carlsbad site - Jim is apparently not even in the Carlsbad area anymore. They think he has not been actively breeding bimacs for several months.

Carlsbad Aquafarm is not considering taking up bimac breeding at the present time, although they may continue with the seahorses. They have not ruled out eventually breeding bimacs, but it's nothing they're considering doing right now.

It doesn't seem likely that Jim is continuing with Octopets somewhere else, but we don't know that for sure. There seems to be only one phone number for Jim, and he isn't answering calls or returning my messages.

I think we should look carefully at what our short and long term options are. Because Octopets was providing tank bred bimacs, no one else stepped forward to also provide aquacultured octos. Some of us are already thinking of that now. In the meantime, it looks like octos will be imported from Indonesia to the LFS. Some briareus are available, but the survival rate doesn't seem to be very good.

Nancy

Carlsbad Aquafarm is not considering taking up bimac breeding at the present time, although they may continue with the seahorses. They have not ruled out eventually breeding bimacs, but it's nothing they're considering doing right now.


Did he say give any details about why they're not considering it? I'm thinking that if it's because they don't have the expertise without Jim, maybe we could work to address that, versus if they've decided that they just don't want it in their facility, we'd have to find another location, etc.... it would also be useful to know if there are reasons they don't want to continue with it that we'd have to address, too... (not profitable, too much work, high mortality rate, too much loss in shipping, ...?)

Well, it would seem our worst fears have been realized. I'll stop by my LFS tomorrow night and see if they've heard back from their distributors about finding a diver to get eggs. Failing that I'll see if I can find one through Fish Supply, or start calling California dive shops.

Dan

Its prob $ and time devoted to them that they dont want to invest. they dont see a big enough market for captive bred octo's or one at all, especialy when it is easy to capture them abroad.

just my 2 cents

we just need someone to start up a similar buisiness. it doesnt have to be as large scale as jims but just enough to support the small market. maybe just have 1 or 2 sets of breeding adults to begin and just use them and the offspring to supply the market. that way the operation can be small enough to fit in someones backyard or house. even if they only get out 50 or so babies a year to the public it would be better than nothing. also what if we all bug the large research facilities until they decide to breed certain species for us and in return we pay for them in order to keep up their research?

we just need someone to start up a similar buisiness. it doesnt have to be as large scale as jims but just enough to support the small market. maybe just have 1 or 2 sets of breeding adults to begin and just use them and the offspring to supply the market. that way the operation can be small enough to fit in someones backyard or house. even if they only get out 50 or so babies a year to the public it would be better than nothing. also what if we all bug the large research facilities until they decide to breed certain species for us and in return we pay for them in order to keep up their research?

The first goal is somewhat realistic as it is closest to what will likely happen. Remember that one breeding pair of bimacs means about 500 eggs, and are only really attainable in southern California. Hiring a diver to steal a single festoon of 10-30 eggs, shipping them across country and raising the hatchlings is a little more realistic. I am certain this will not be a profitable venture, but one done as a hobby that might come close to paying for itself. I'll let you know how profitable it ends up being.

I don't think its worth harassing the NRCC. James Wood's webpage puts it best:

It's not that people or institutions on this list have to adhere to strict government-controlled spending practices or that they could lose their grant money if they sold you a cephalopod, it's just that they don't like you, and they'd rather you not have the opportunity to have one for a pet.

Bugging them isn't going to make them like you any more. And how much would we really have to offer them? If you take the entire recent thread about bimac demand, assume everyone on there will indeed buy one this year (which is certainly not going to happen) you're only talking $500 or so.


Dan

i think the best idea is multiple small scale breeding operations, dan i noticed that you are on the hunt for bimac eggs, say ten more people follow your idea and breed, then there would be close to the supply of octopets.

I think we can raise any large-egged octopus (bimac, briareus and some of the dwarfs) - but we'll have a learning curve. I can find out a lot and have the experience of trying to raise briareus hatchlings. It looks like amphipod culture is easy, too.

So our first step is investigation and learning and some of you might want to fill in with wild caught octos - perhaps these will lay fertile eggs. I'm going to find out more from Fish Supply about their wild caught octos (not the blue rings). Before Octopets, they supplied healthy young octopuses.

Nancy

I doubt that there are going to be ten others out there like me. Keep in mind a hatchling bimac can eat 3 amphipods a day. Twenty hatchlings will eat 60 a day which ends up costing over $1000 a month if I were to buy them. Anyone who wants to raise hatchlings is going to have to set up one major pod farm to handle that first month or so. Really, multiple feed systems, since I'll want mysis for the first few weeks, too. Living in a coastal area I should be able to harvest some feed, but it might not be worth my while.

Dan

if only i lived by the ocean.......(and had a couple grand laying around)

Amphipods don't seem so difficult to raise -
http://www.aquaculturestore.com/info/samph.html

Nancy

This news is distressing. True, I don't have an octo pet, but I have enjoyed reading about this creature among you. True, too short lived, but with no supply... ! This is terrible!

I'll be "lurking" and hoping you can find a solution. Perhaps your solution will be even more interesting than the past sources. I hope so.

I've never been able to scale up amphipods, but what about mysid shrimp? They breed readily in my tank.

My existing tanks are the other way around: plenty of amphipods feeding on detritus in the night, but I rarely ever spot a mysid. A large mysid operation is pretty complex, actually. They require hatchling artemia twice daily and the young continually need to be separated from the adults.

The amphipods, on the other hand, will do just fine on flake food. I'm thinking about setting up a 30 gallon breeder tank for them. I don't know if setting up a dedicated mysid hatchery will be worth my while for the few weeks they would be eating them. They're cheaper to order than amphipods so I might just do that. When I have some more details of my hatcheries I'll post them in my bimac thread.

Dan

if only i lived by the ocean.......(and had a couple grand laying around)

Or an eager venture capitalist. :boat:

about the amphis. i know someone who is testing a new amphipod/coapapod culture idea that works amazingly well. instead of starting with a few in your tank and letting them breed this is based on the same principal as sea monkey eggs. they are dry when you get them and there are thousands of them. you place them in the water and within a week your tank is covered in so many that sometimes thats all you see. this is supposed to be on the market in like 2 months! i didnt believe him at first but ive watched the progress in his tank and its unreal.

joefish, that seems like that's something I might be interested in, as I am sure that many others are also, can you give some detail as to where to find them when they become available? Tanks a tonne for the info.

I own an LFS and must say that I have seen next to zero cephs on my lists in the last 5-6 months. Only ceph listed is the blue ring.

I do business with 2 of the "big players" in LA as well as 6 or so other assorted importers and transhippers.

Hopefully the loss of octopets will help spark either another octo farm, or better collection availability.

If I see any on lists, Ill be sure and let folks know so they can harrass there LFS.

Joel
Waves Marine & Reef

yeah ill let yall know about the coapopod stuff when it comes out. my friends said hed try to get some of the stuff for me soon so ill get to let yall know how well it works first hand.

thats funny, i just started working at a lfs, and we have bluerings, "brown". and "bali" octo's on our list

Wow...No more Fed Ex trucks from Octopets...That is indeed sad.....Wonder why bluerings seem to be so easy to order in? Maybe because they are more close to the shore? Last time I was out in Pa, they said they too had just ordered a bluering for a customer. Don't know why shops do or even offer these little guys.

Because bluerings are pretty and inexperienced poeple like to but cephs into tanks that are usually too small, not escape proof and have no idea where a Bluering comes from. (Let's hope that they at least know not to let the Bluering bite them...)

http://www.liveaquaria.com/product/prod_Display.cfm?pCatId=534 perhaps?

http://www.liveaquaria.com/product/prod_Display.cfm?pCatId=534 perhaps?


Notice they're out of stock. They came from Octopets, too.

Dan

Arr octopus.... Where did you get to?

Yeah, live aquaria has been saying "coming soon" for like 3 months now. I bet they too were waiting for octopuses from octopets.

Ben

Depression setting in.. Im very tempted to buy a blue ring. :razz: Anyone find any sources or is this the end of the octopus?

No, this is not the end of our octopuses. Maybe we were wrong to depend so much on one source.

Some of our members are interested in breeding octopuses, or at least raising hatchlings. This will be one source for the future.

But, the LFSs are getting wild caught octos in - it's not impossible to find one. There seem to be more available on the local level than from the big online stores. I think we all should report in on the availability of octos at local LFSs and keep everyone informed.

For instance, I know Fish Supply is getting a few in and we've had good experiences buying from them. Also, they ship well.

Nancy

i wouldent go so far as to say this is the end of the octopus, but to say that octo's are taking a vacation at the current time would fit. or well captive bred ones that is. live cought are still coming in

Marine Depot still says they have two octopus in stock. They claim them to be Octopus bimaculatus but I doubt they can differentiate it from O. bimaculoides.

I have gone back and forth a little bit with them about their octopuses via email. I casually remarked at one point that there's a market, albeit small, for captive-bred octopus, and a larger fish company that already had all the equipment and employees could probably make a bit of profit off them.

They politely corrected me, letting me know there is little interest in octopus at this time.

Dan

That's interesting.

I don't think we've seen a single O.bimaculatus in the past several years, so I imagine it's our friendly O. bimaculoides.

So maybe those of you who need octos should indicate more interest to the suppliers.

Nancy

I doubt that there's a market for a octo-as-a-pet industry that's profitable without having the price per octo raised. Either we get more poeple into this hobby or we'll have to signify that those that want octos as a pet would rather pay more than have no octos. As long as they can sell enough octos to go pass the break-even point and gather some proft, the'll start thinking about it.

What is the difference between O. bimaculoides and O.bimaculatus? Is it size? I remember something about the false eyespots being different.

Ben

I doubt that there's a market for a octo-as-a-pet industry that's profitable without having the price per octo raised. Either we get more poeple into this hobby or we'll have to signify that those that want octos as a pet would rather pay more than have no octos. As long as they can sell enough octos to go pass the break-even point and gather some proft, the'll start thinking about it.

If you raise the price, you sell less octos. When you're hatching hundreds at a time, you might as well sell as many of them as you can for as cheap as you can to get maximum revenue. Maybe a half dozen TONMO'ers will pay $100 for a bimac, but at the lower price you would have sold dozens to the "WhErE cAn i gEt a BloO RiNg" crowd.

The reason that Octopets was selling them real cheap is the same reason why internet startups lose hundreds of millions of dollars per year starting up...take Vonage, which lost over a $100m in the last three quarters. They've spent about $120m on marketing. As a result, a couple years after inception, the company has over one million subscribers. If they had started out trying to be immediately profitable, they'd have a few thousand customers and make a few million dollars or so. Now, in a year or two they can cut back their marketing and bring in hundreds of millions of dollars in profit.

I think octopus breeding could be profitable, but only under the right conditions. You need an aquarium fish operation that's big enough to have plenty of people standing around. I would say it is within the realm of many larger fish shops. This is how I interpret what Marine Depot told me: "Yeah, maybe we could make $500-$1000 a year on it. But for the amount of money that moves through here, that just isn't worth the effort." And they're right.

Even if a sole-proprietor had the equipment and the feed farm to start at no-cost, a year's worth of income wouldn't feed him/her for a month, much less a year. If we see captive-bred octopus again, it won't be someone's day job.

What is the difference between O. bimaculoides and O.bimaculatus? Is it size? I remember something about the false eyespots being different.

Without going back to the library, I think the "link" structure of the eyespots is most diagnostic. They have small eggs with planktonic larvae, but you can hardly tell that from looking at them. I know I've heard it mentioned that the maximum size is different, but since that varies so much between different wild populations of O. bimaculoides, I'm skeptical of how useful this is.

I can't come up with a good reason why their octopus wouldn't be O. bimaculatus, though. The two species have a similar range, and I don't know about relative abundance. I kind of hope someone buys one or both of Marine Depot's octos and takes some pictures :)

Dan

Hi, the name's Paul and I live at the beach in San Diego County. I'm just getting into aquariums and was researching octopuses as an option for my classroom tank (I'm a beginning grade school teacher, no $, and finishing the classroom tank requires $) and that's how I ended up here.

During lobster season (October to mid-March) I go out at night in my kayak with hoops/bait and pull up lobster (to eat). I usually pull up an eel or two every other day, and the last two weekends in a row, I've pulled up an octopus. I have no idea what kind they are. The first one was small - about 2" head and a 1 foot span. The second one had about a foot large head and it's span was over 6 feet. At least that's how it looked when it was running amok on my kayak in the darkness. It nearly kicked me out of my boat and into the ocean too.

I do dive once in a while so I could also look for eggs.

I am also awaiting my collection permits from the department of game and fish. I'm not sure of the legality of this, but perhaps we could help each other - Send you eggs or octopus, get $ or equipment for the classroom tank?

Just a thought.

-Paul

P.S. Of course the octopus were released back into the ocean.

Hi, the name's Paul and I live at the beach in San Diego County. I'm just getting into aquariums and was researching octopuses as an option for my classroom tank (I'm a beginning grade school teacher, no $, and finishing the classroom tank requires $) and that's how I ended up here.

During lobster season (October to mid-March) I go out at night in my kayak with hoops/bait and pull up lobster (to eat). I usually pull up an eel or two every other day, and the last two weekends in a row, I've pulled up an octopus. I have no idea what kind they are. The first one was small - about 2" head and a 1 foot span. The second one had about a foot large head and it's span was over 6 feet. At least that's how it looked when it was running amok on my kayak in the darkness. It nearly kicked me out of my boat and into the ocean too.

I do dive once in a while so I could also look for eggs.

I am also awaiting my collection permits from the department of game and fish. I'm not sure of the legality of this, but perhaps we could help each other - Send you eggs or octopus, get $ or equipment for the classroom tank?

Just a thought.

-Paul

P.S. Of course the octopus were released back into the ocean.

Sounds like you've done your research!

There is a BOAT LOAD of info here!

What was the approximate water temp, wondering if that was a GPO you may have pulled up. They like colder water. Great to have you aboard.

Felix.

Hi Paul, welcome to TONMO!

If you go collecting like this with a tangible connection to the school, I'm sure you want to be completely legit. I can see the headline now:

"California man indicted--shipped native species across country, school profited"

It looks like I have an egg source for this season (knock on wood), but you might ask the fish and game people about it for the future. Unfortunately I think its the kind of thing they would say no to at first principles without reasoning it through. They're animals that aren't threatened and you'd never have to take more than 10% of any given mother's brood. I consider invasiveness a non-issue here because you wouldn't be sending things anywhere that Octopets wasn't. It wouldn't hurt to see what they say since you're dealing with them for permits anyway.

Dan

Hope they permit octo eggs for shipping. Awaiting the good news.
Not sure what else to say...
Eric

on that same note im also getting an international and foriegn waters collection permit from the us costoms department in order to bring back octos and corals from the bahamas for personal use. if i do manage to get this done ill be more than happy to send some eggs your way if i ever end up with them

What is the difference between O. bimaculoides and O.bimaculatus? Is it size? I remember something about the false eyespots being different.

Ben

You can tell by the eyespots.

O. bimaculoides looks like chain links.

O. bimaculatus looks like a sunburst.

Otherwise they look the same, except O.bimaculatus gets twice as large.

Hi Paul, welcome to TONMO!

If you go collecting like this with a tangible connection to the school, I'm sure you want to be completely legit. I can see the headline now:

"California man indicted--shipped native species across country, school profited"



:shock: :lol:

I'd like to avoid that!

Today while tidepooling with the girlfriend, I ran across another one.

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e210/Blesum/DSC00295.jpg
About a two inch head...

http://photobucket.com/albums/e210/Blesum/th_DSC00298.jpg

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e210/Blesum/DSC00297.jpg

-Paul

Fantastic pics! Oh how I miss San Diego!

Great photos, thanks for posting them !
greg

:shock: :lol:

I'd like to avoid that!

Today while tidepooling with the girlfriend, I ran across another one.

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e210/Blesum/DSC00295.jpg
About a two inch head...

http://photobucket.com/albums/e210/Blesum/th_DSC00298.jpg

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e210/Blesum/DSC00297.jpg

-Paul

That's awesome Paul. I held a 1-inch baby over the weekend (Saturday) at Bird Rock. He was SOOO cute. It took every fiber of my being not to bring him home and setup a new tank. He was literally half the size of your pinky finger. I gave him a nearby hermit crab and he pounced on it. I love how they look just like miniature adults, even as babies...

thats funny, i just started working at a lfs, and we have bluerings, "brown". and "bali" octo's on our list

this isnt exactly helpful unless you know the source. There are thousands of vendors. What list were you viewing?




Paul like I said earlier in this post, I own an LFS. Id happily trade some product to get you going for a small octo.

Feel free to PM me if your interested.