alright it has been about 2 months now and my tank isnt ready yet.
i have a 29 gallon tank and about 3.5 lbs of live rock plus crushed coral for gravel. the ammonia started to rise, then i added some new live rock and right away the nitrite started rising.. it was rising for about a week or 2, then my water level was going down and the salinity was going up so i added some fresh water to bring it back up and the nitrite went straight to 0... its been about a week and a half now, the ammonia is still high and the nitrite is steady at 0 :S how am i supposed to fix this??

What type of filtration are you using?

Dan

its an undergravel filter

Well, you have an interrupted cycle, and you are going to have to wait a while longer. Just out of curiousity, how come you went with an undergravel? Octos are notorious for disturbing the sand bed, rendering the plate somewhat useless...??????

What type octi are you planning? (sorry if you've already told us............my memory is shocking!!) 29G is small for most species.

J

I get the feeling that under gravel filters are really out of style in SW setups because there are so many critters that live in in the sand. If I was setting up a 29 for a pygmy, I'd get a canister filter or an easy-to-octoproof powerfilter like one of the newer Tetras.

Dan

Its for a pigmy octo I think. Adding the new live rock probably shuffled the bacterial populations a bit when it was added. Based on your water samples you will have to wait until the new rock is totally cycled, (which will probably be faster than the initial partial cycle.)

I had a UG on my fresh water turtle tank and it was useless. Never going back to those again :grin: .

I hate to say it, but isn't that a very small amount of live rock for a 29 gallon tank???

I hate to say it, but isn't that a very small amount of live rock for a 29 gallon tank???
Yeah I missed that - I didnt wanna try and convert kg per litre into pounds per gallon in my head.
Mystic_January you should have at least 15 pounds of live rock in there I think. Didnt someone say 0.5 pounds per gallon for an octo is ok? For the Beriln method your tank requires about 30-45 pound.

The tank as it is will not have enough bacteria to process waste.

well, actually i went with an undergravel filter because that is what came with my tank when i bought it lol, i do have another filter if i need it, from my old small 5 gallon tank. but the reason why i dont have that much live rock is because i need the room for hitching posts, im planning on getting some seahorses. i was going to get an octo, but my tank is small and i dont have that much money to put into rock etc. and pygmy octos are hard to find, and from what ive heard they are a pain in the arse. ... and 30 lbs of live rock :S thats 300$ right there.. 10$/lb.. seems a bit much especially since seahorses dont really have a need for it and need the room instead for something to hitch on. if my tank isnt going to cycle with only 3lbs of rock, is there anything else i could do??

my tank isnt going to cycle with only 3lbs of rock, is there anything else i could do??

No, I don't think there's anything you can do to prevent this disaster.

one way is time and water changes like 15 percent. 1-2 times a week. should help with ammonia. also i would reccoment more filtration like a over sized canister filter for a 29 gallon tank and let cycle with the tank (pry about 80 dollars and load it with ammonia and active carbon chips in like pantyhose or something) run with tank for amonth or so it should help with ammonia levels. thats how i deal with any ammonia levels in my 150 gallon octo tank with a carribean reef octo i have haad for 7 months. but that is only 25 percent of the filtration for my tank. if u have nay more questions please ask.
greg:goodbye:

Well I'm on a pretty extreme budget too :grin:, the solution I came up with was to make my own base rock - then make it "live" in the sea. Making it was pretty fun, and I plan to make more. The annoying thing is it takes time - you have to let it cure. I dont know whats gonna happen to mine as I'm curing it in the sea.
http://www.fnzas.org.nz/fishroom/1-vt9368.html?start=0


As for other budget alternatives - my suggestion would be a deep sand bed ie preferably more than 4 inches deep. This is actually a very good method of nitrate control, and I'm thinking it would be better than using the UG.

What does everyone else think? Given the situation I would say that a deep sand bed is a good option.
I would use the grating from the undergravel filter in the top area of the sand bed to act as a barrier from digging.
And I suggest 6 inches, but at least 4 inches deep.


I'm not really aware of any tanks that rely (almost) totally on DSB filtration, so perhaps Dan or Colin have some words of wisdom?

Can you say Anaerobic Decay ? With a sand bed that deep, you would at least smell it !
I would say, start over from scratch, and just cycle the tank with mollies or damsels the old fashioned way...or part with the cash necessary for the live rock. 10 bucks a pound is awfully steep though, it must be some really nice stuff ! (about 5 bucks here in AZ )

well the canadian dollar would put what to an american is only 5$ up to 10$ canadian. :( i definately dont want to start over again. i already had to start over again once, and im getting impatient. i thought it was 1lb of live rock per 10 gallons, i also red it was 1 lb per 5 gallons, so maybe if i get 3 more pounds it will work??

but i deinately dont have 300$ stored away for some crappy rock.

I find a lot of crappy rock is actually beneficial and beautiful. I assume this is your first salt water tank. It is a learning experience and usually ends up being a very expensive (and addictive) hobby.

Also, I hope you were not planning on having seahorses and an octopus in the same tank. This will not work out well.

I would HIGHLY suggest buying more live rock and a canister filter. It sounds like you don't even have a protein skimmer - if not, get one.

Can you say Anaerobic Decay ? With a sand bed that deep, you would at least smell it !
I would say, start over from scratch, and just cycle the tank with mollies or damsels the old fashioned way.

I'm afraid I would also have to agree, however, it may not be as bad or slow as a completely new setup. Mollies would be my first choice, damsels are :evil: creatures, and hard to catch.

Good luck!

Feelers--

I'm a believer in DSB for reefs, but I don't think its the way to go for ceph tanks. For one, even with an under-gravel plate halfway down, an octo would find his way under it, and the last thing he or she needs is a big gulp of ammonia, hydrogen sulfide or any other reduction products :) I also wouldn't rely on a DSB for primary filtration. I think you should call a spade a spade and use a DSB for nitrate reduction.

The other thing is a reef tank is a slow, long-term nitrate generator--its a closer allegory to the natural environment. A ceph tank is very episodic: Lets say you get a small octopus, little filtration needed. It slowly grows and as it does your bacterial colony grows with it as they have more and more food available. In 6 months the octopus dies and all those bacteria starve to death. Essentially you're going to have irregular nitrate boom and bust cycles. I don't think this is well suited for the deep sand bed (and also keep in mind the dsb needs to cycle as well, remember those are bacteria that do the reducing, too).

I remember Colin once said that he thinks you should re-cycle between cephs, and I believe this is why.

If you are interested in experimenting with DSB, there is an easy way. If you go to ReefCentral and check out Anthony Calfo's forum, there's a thread about the "Deep Sand Bed in a Bucket." The idea is you plumb two small bulkheads through the top of a bucket, fill it with sand, and run water through with a powerhead. Flow has to be fast enough that detritus doesn't setttle. Easy to add, easy to remove.

Dan

well the canadian dollar would put what to an american is only 5$ up to 10$ canadian. :( i definately dont want to start over again. i already had to start over again once, and im getting impatient. i thought it was 1lb of live rock per 10 gallons, i also red it was 1 lb per 5 gallons, so maybe if i get 3 more pounds it will work??

Hmmm. I've always used at least a pound per gallon.

Ceph tanks can be simple, until you start to throw wrenches into the mix...remember, they like to move stuff around, totally unlike a reef tank(where the inhabitants are much calmer)...so a can filter and a thin bed of sand is typically the best.
greg

okay i realize this is a octopus website but I AM NOT GETTING AN OCTOPUS, my tank is too small for one :( all i want is a couple seahorses. can anyone give me advice for seahorses??? do they even like live rock?? because my tank is small i dont have alot of room for both rock and hitching posts, i dont want a reef tank, i just want a couple seahorses. im going to get a starfish and a golbie or w/e for waste clean up. an undergravel filter ive been told will do fine for them.
i dont have a skimmer because i dont think im really going to have that much waste and if there is i will hook up my second filter. if i absolutely need 30lbs of rock, is there a different method to cycle the tank without taking the rock that I already have out? i have a little sea-worm thingy living on one of my rocks lol i enjoy watching it move its little arms around, and i dont want to get rid of it.

I think an undergravel filter would do ok, I've never had much faith in ther, OTOH an 1 1/2" of sand should be able to house more than enough bacteria to carry out the nitro-cycle. How about the greener type filters, i.e., live plants? I'm not sure on the particulars, but I've heard from a couple guys into reefs how they are little miracles. Can anyone else confirm this? What kind are you looking at getting? Kudas are the most popular, as far as I can tell. I assume thiss, because of availability. Well, I'll leave the rest up to the experts.

"I reject your reality, and substitute my own!" :D

i think im going to go to www.seahorse.com and get a couple mustangs, they seem the hardiest.

I have seen under gravel filters on sea horse tanks and they were doing well. Everyone here generally don't reccommend them for octos- but for seahorses who wont dig in sand and dont require premium water quality they do the job.

You dont need to take the existing rock out, when you are cycling a tank with no inhabitants you can do what you want - as nothing's gonna die. But things like adding new rock will stir the cycle as everything re-adjusts.

AAAAAAARRRRGGGGHHHHHH
Where,oh where, is that smilie that we need ???? Bang!

apples and oranges, eh?