Well I got a call today from the owner at the lps and he said a lady ordered an octo and once it arrived she had lost interest and didnt want it anymore, and it was suposibally a brown caribean reef octo but the owner said it lookes nothing like any octo he has ever saw and he said the legs where missing so he asked me to come check it out so i headed up there and i checked it out and its a mimic well atleast i think from the zebra markings and no the arms werent missing it was curled up! and i started to explain to him how hard and unright it is to keep them and he is willing to sell me him for $40! i dont think i want to watch him die atleast with me! i want it to live but i cant do anything all i have is a 75 gal. that is my reef tank but reef only no fish and then i have my 120 for my cuttle but i dont think the 75 would be suitible for him and i will not put him in with airhead so im caught in this mess i want to do something and have him live the tank its in rite now is a 50 gal. with nothing but LR. and kris is begging me to take him but i dont think my reef tank is rite but the tank he is in rite now is deffinitly not suitable and i also dont want to lose my corals! so please help me out on this should i leave him there and hope the best or should i try and host him in my reef tank? please please please give me a suggestion i dont want him to die and i really dont want him to end up dieing with me in a few days! :confused:

Hey OO, tough choice!!

If it were me I'd take him. Your lfs seems like he knows what he is doing, and you can give him a telling off for ordering mimics. From the sounds of it he doesnt want to trade in them either which is good. :)

gotta go, Ill write more when I get back.

yeah im so confused though i dont know what to do! and he didnt order it on perpose it just came but i did give him a lay down on it and he said if they ever come up on orders or someone asks if he can order one he will refuse thats how he did with pygmy seahorses they where really big here and many people asked for him to order them and he refused so im glad he knows that with the mimic now to!

Could airhead live in the reef tank? That species doesn't get very large.

Nancy

Good heaven's...punctuation !!!!!:grad:

If it came in by accident, it is just a sorry fate...you can put it into a tank if you want, but the chances of it living for more than a few weeks are slim...40$ =few weeks...hmmm.

yeah that could be a possibility but i dont want to move him then have the mimic die in within a short time therefore airhead would go from one home to the next and back but im not sure how good of an idea that would be he has been in the 120 gal. since he was born! would that be hard on him moving like that?

and see your rite cthulhu thats what im confused about $40 for a few weeks of watching an octo slowly die thats what is tha bad thing i wouldnt want to go through that i just wish it would have never came in i would be so much happier if it was home! but i cant do anything and that sux!

Didn't someone else on these forums buy a mimic (or wunderpus?) by accident and keep it for a month or so.

Your LFS should at least give it to you at no cost, although it doesn't seem to be his fault that the wrong octo was delivered.

Nancy

well yeah i agree but hes out there to make money even if he knows it will have a better home with me!

Well, have a chat to the lfs guy again. Im geussing that if you tell him the octo has only a few weeks to live it will (hopefully) be very easy to get him to drop the price.
I would swap him into the 120G, I doubt airhead would mind too much.

Its a once in a lifetime opportunity to get a mimic (without potentially daming their population in the wild even more) so I say see how it goes.

With the lfs not intentially getting him, I think its fair enough to give it a shot. He is most likely going to die a cramped death, so he is better off in a large tank and an informed owner who cares about him.

Maybe you could write an article about how it goes.?

Its a tough call.

yeah i think i might just get him then im sure i can talk him down if not ending up walking out with him at no cost but i will have to explain the whole thing to him! and i hope airhead wont mind the move and he will have a feast on my sexy shrimp i think i might take them out though before he makes dinner of them!

and i know its a once in a lifetime oppertunity but knowing what this octos been through makes it so much worse i would do anything to get him home! even if i do get him at no cost!

so i will give it a try and your also rite atleast i know he will have died in luxury! but yeah i will keep up to date posts on it!

Hey OO, sounds good, sorry I was in the chat room but my friend was on the comp - didnt mean to leave you hanging lol. :grin:

Keep us updated on how this goes, lots of pics ect!!!

oh its okay man! but yeah i will give it ago and keep ya posted! i think i might head up there soon and i just got off the phone with him and he said he got him to eat a crab so good signs but i wont give my hopes up to soon one minuite he could be doing fin the next he could be on the verge of death!

Is this the same LFS with the Nautilus? Could you convince him to donate it to the aquarium? Good Luck.

I don't think you should consider this an opportunity, but rather a rescue. Then make the best of it.

Nancy

I don't think you should consider this an opportunity, but rather a rescue. Then make the best of it.

I agree, but it is an opportunity of sorts, he has made sure that this animal isnt to be aquired by the lfs again, and he is also lucky enough to get a mimic octopus without crossing the moral boundaries we enforce and follow on tonmo. :grin:

Personally I would love a mimic!! - but only a morally aquired one :smile:

Im very interested in how it will work out, why do they have such a short lifespan in captivity?

Perhaps mimics need the sort of strong currents, desert-like conditions, and high sunlight of their native submarine turf. Also, they are probably evolved to enjoy the specific burrow-dwelling fauna from their area, so my guess would be that professional aquarium attempts to raise them would need to include these animals in addition to replicating the undersea climate they hail from. Granted, that's a complete layman's guess, but it would make some sense.

This should be looked at as a rescue, and should be carried out. Provide that octopus with the best care it can receive. You don't want the LFS to sell this animal to just anybody, and you seem to respect these animals.

Ive done a wee bit of research on the net, and found that the probable cause of many mimics quick death - is the technique to capture them. Cyanide is used to flush the octopus from its' den, and apparently the health affects only become apparent further down the line.

Perhaps the shock of moving to a new tank coupled with the cyanide poisoning is why many die within days.

The mimic tank doesn't require any rocks (well for filtration it does obviously), and an 8-10 inch deep sand bed is the "reccommended" minimum.

Temperature should be constant and water quality should remain high.
Dont change salt brands as some brands may kill them.
Subdued lighting is reccommended.

Apparently they like to swim around alot and may get frustrated and ink if they crash into the glass too much.

Colour changing is only to completly black, and this is only while angry or frustrated.

They may (but are unlikely to) have toxic venom, no-one really knows as a bite hasnt been properly documented - from what I could find.
The reason they are unlikely to be poisonous is assumed from comparison of other mimicing organisms, but is still just an educated geuss.


Thats the info I could find on short notice :grin: , some animals have been given to the NRCC, and still died within days.

Oh, and lastly no mimicry has been reported outside of their natural environments - and apparently they make dull pets.



O'O, I know I told you this in my pm, just thought everyone might be interested.

Sad, really.

The rationalization that this is a rescue is exactly the logic (illogic) that keeps Wunderpus and Thaumoctopus in the pipeline. It is easy to say that the damage is already done and what will it hurt if I buy the animal and enjoy it or that it's life will be "better" in my tank than in the LFS owners or someone elses. Nonsense! This animal has been taken out of its habitat and will never reproduce. While we don't know how many of them there are in the wild, it is probably not a common, abundant species and even moderate collection pressure could be damaging.

The only way, short of restricting their importation, that the capture of mimics and zebras is going to be deterred is if there are consequences for wholesalers and retailers who traffic in them. If you pay the shop owner even what he paid for the animal, there is no disincentive for him not to do it again, and even worse, for the importer and wholesaler not to continue to pay collecters and shippers in Indonesia to provide these animals. The best way to dampen the trade in these beasts is to let these "mistakes" die unsold in the shippers or shop owners tanks. It is a sorry fact that financial loss is probably the only short-term message that will work.

I know that this seems harsh, but I have been watching these animals being imported for several years and the fact is that there are many more coming into the trade now than ever before. There are too many stories on this and other sites about shop owners selling mimics for a 1000% profit (a $50 animal sold for $500) and there are too many examples of people deluding themselves into buying a mimic with the rationalization that it is already in the shop - I can give it a better life - so what will it hurt. I'm not an expert on the psychology of mimics, so I really don't know if it is a better life to live for six weeks in a home aquarium (probably with the wrong substrate), or die in six days in the shop owne's display aquarium. I do hope that it will be better for the survivial of the species if collectors, importers, wholesalers and retailers can't sell them and are forced to take a loss.

Obviously the best solution to this problem is to get all "zebras" (since most people can't tell the difference) onto a protected list, but given that this probably won't happen anytime soon, don't buy them - even if it is to offer them a "better life".

Sorry to be so blunt about this, but the past few years I've been writing posts about this and the problem is worse, not better. Frustration is setting in.

Roy

You're talking into the wind...these people who import animals could care less about the welfare of the captives, or their wild cousins.
I get so pissed I have to not check in now and again, because things like this keep popping up.

Agreed...frustrating beyond belief.

Well said Roy,

hand on heart I'd leave it in the shop. I have been offered wunderpus several times in the last year. All I do is remind them that they are delicate short-lived animals that are potentially very rare.

Conservation is easy
Dont buy anythning that isnt raised on a "Farm"
no out of the wild animals
I buy from Octopets because thats the only place i can confirm that breeds these cretures for the express purpose of pets.
now
get a wonderpus breeding farm and ill probably shell out another 1200$+ to get teh right equipment and another 200 for the animal it self
until then ferget it

:glass: To all three of you !!!!
Couldn't agree more.

greg

Yes, it would be better to just leave the octo in the shop, as painful as it would be personally. Only if the owner takes a financial hit on the octo, even if delivered by mistake, will he make sure that he never gets another one.

So do you think if the owner simply gives it away, taking the financial loss, it would be wrong to take it? Would we be promoting the trade in these species?

Why would the supplier send this particular species to someone who had ordered a "brown octopus"? Maybe if dealers started identifying species and sold by species name, things would improve as well.

Captive bred is the way to go and I'm hoping other species will eventually be available, like briareus.

Nancy

Giving it away is an option, but only if the recipient understands that if she/he makes it public that they are keeping the animal, it will only fuel the desire of some other aquarists to acquire one. I think it better to lead by example and just say "No!".

I do want to say one more thing on this issue so as not to appear hypocritical. I do occasionally acquire and keep rare octopus and stomatopods for study and to provide museum specimens. Some times these come from commercial sources. It is a difficult decision whether taking such an animal for the scientific information that might be gained out weighs the potential harm that encouraging collectors might cause. I don't make such decisions lightly and I do everything possible to ensure that the supplier understands why these animals should not be collected and sold.

Roy

Well for my two cents the LFS guy seems pretty good. He has stated that he wont be getting in any more "Zebras" and it doesnt sound like he wanted it in the first place.

Its all very well to say dont buy them - (which is a good idea). However in this case O'O was rung by the LFS guy who clearly didnt want anything to do with this species.
He could have sold it for $300 or more, but instead asked O'O for help, at a loss to his own pocket.
I dont think this is a typical transaction, and one that (based on what he's said) isnt going to happen again.

From what O'O's said about his track record on keeping nautalis this is the type of LFS person that the world needs more of.


I think the best way to protect this species is to breed them too. Aquacultured octos are far more appealing to everyone, and would probably be the most effective way to stop mimic importing.

There is no question that we would like to see mimics cultured, but they are a small egg species that probably are not likely to be bred any time soon. I know of only one female that has even laid eggs in captivity.

Roy

yeah i totally agree with these posts! and he offered it to me at no cost so i took it because many of customers where wanting to get there hands on it once they saw it and he passed on the info i gave to him to them and he agrees with me so he found that it may have a better home with me for the little remainder of its life but it really does not matter right if its going to die do you think the octo really cares what kind of home hes in no! but it would make a better shot on keeping it around longer even if its a few minuites well this probablly don't make any sence but i see it in a way, and its wrong but what would be better then some random joe that comes in and wants it for all i kno he will stick in a freshwater tank who knows? or put it in a tank that might be pushing the limits but possibly similar i have read many of posts and i know the needs to actually have the thing end up with a chance of survival and i have done what i could to adjust my tank from what i read wether it works or not its all worth a try! and you all know how the public is, they are compulsive buyers and they dont care about anything but apperance so no matter what it is if it looks neat they are willing to pay top dollar for it! so really the only reason i took it is cause i thought it might have a better chance! and i know you guys are probablly fired up but i have said this many of times nothings immpossible! well sorry if this made some anger but i just did to my knolage what i thought was rite!

Well, from what O'O has told me, The lfs guy was offered $400 by a random, and he refused and explained that these animals shouldnt be traded.
Then he GAVE the mimic to O'O!!!

I personally think that the LFS guy is a legend. Definately the best outcome from an unfortunate situation. :grin:

My lfs once got a "mimic" octo in, but it turned out to be a bobtail squid.

Haha, man that's one bad ID!!

For $400 I'll gladly get anyone a bobtail!!

Are bobtails hard to keep? *Offtopic*

Jean would be able to comment on how hard they are to keep. (Her aquarium has one) :grin:

From my short experience with them they hide in sand all day, and are quite easily sent into shock which will kill them.

I would imagine that they are harder than octos but easier than squids. They are quite small and delicate, I don't imagine they make the best pets.

Are they active at all? Or in the sand all day?

I was looking around on Rc and found this, http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=717162 interesting!

I think they are active at night. In the day time they bury themselves in the sand with only their eyes exposed.

Here is Jeans one - (this is the same species that I had a brief encounter with)
http://www.tonmo.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1635&d=1131591922

Feelers is right as a pet bobtails are booooooring........unless you're an insomniac! They just sit around all day buried in the sand....what fun to get aquarium visitors to spot them! :twisted:. That photo was taken just after it was placed in the tank so it was still pretty visible..can't see it at all now, unless you know where to look and even then it's hard to spot!
J

We've been a bit off topic here - O.O., now that you have the octo, take as good care of it as possible. I know you plan to do this. You'll have to learn as much as you can about it. This decision must have been stressful for you and the LFS owner, hope not for the octo.

You might want to search on "mimic octopus" and look at Big Red's posts. His mimic turned out to be a wonderpus. He did keep it for at least a month.

Nancy

LE me just back up Nancy here and say that now you have the octopus you should carefully note down as many observations as you can about the animal... what it ate, how often, where did it hide, did it bury in sand, did it try to climb out etc etc all these things will be very useful

cheers
colin

I think you did the right thing. The alternatives to you taking the octo were all worse, the the owner came through and gave your the octopus. It's some effort for you to accomodate this new ceph - I hope it all works out.

Also, I don't think the Ceph Care forums of TONMO.com are a place where people would be encouraged to request flashy octos that they shouldn't have, so you're safe in posting about it. Are you sure about the identification?

There is a sort of person who wants to impress people through keeping unusual or dangerous animals - I've encountered them on other forums, but even there they're not very common. Then there are the people who saw the TV show and are very curious - when I gave the talk in Baltimore, I had a question from the audience about mimics. It turned out there was one for sale in the Baltimore area (at a high price). I warned everyone against purchasing this octopus and explained why.

Nancy

I for one would love to see as many pictures and maybe even videos of this mysterious animal as you could collect. As long as the more experienced members of the board don't think the footage would promote more people to try and keep mimics, this could be a great chance to share scarce information.

Well, it is a double edged sword, isn't it?
If you buy one of these captive octos (already dead to the wild population), you might learn more about it.
But, when you do buy it, you are encouraging the dealer/wholesaler/collector to get more...to sell to other people.

Well, it is a double edged sword, isn't it?

Thats the life story of home aquaria and a lot science!

Interesting thread, lots of good points brought up on both sides. I tend to agree with Neogonodactylus, but also see the others points. Man, glad I'm not in that position! By all means, please do keep us posted!

Cheers!

Well yes all of these posts make alot of sence and i agree with them! but just to clear this up to everyone, sure they might look cool and sound cool but if you only knew what they go through to arrive at the lps then you would to agree with me that mimics are not the way to go the only reason i got mine was for study and a rescue perpose there is no show about him infact there is only one person that has even saw him other than me, its up in my room and the door is locked i dont want anyone messing with him and or possible encoragement to getting one! thats why im iffy about pics and video but the only way i would put them up is if people wouldnt get into wanting one. look guys you dont need one okay an octo is an octo some with more characteristics than others but they all have eight legs trust me you would be better off with a bimic but you might also say who is this guy to be telling me this? rite but look how would you like to have cyanide poured on you and your house? hmmm cool huh... NOT! then imagine going on a 20 hour flight to the other side of the world! now umm do you think you would be able to survive that! NO! the cyanide would have killed you within minuites! but if you guys here think it would not have much affect then sure i would gladly put some stuff up although there will be many of members that will do anything to get one after i do so i dont know if its a good idea! and i will keep posted on osiris by the way thats his name ha ha feelers helped me out with that its the egyptian god of the dead!

well i hope this whole thread made everybody think, i hope it mad you think that mimics are not really that cool once you see what they go through if i could choose to take a bimac over a mimic i would take the bimac and thats what you all should do to! so please understand that the mimic should be left to nature!

thank you guys for all the help! and i will keep you posted!

but if you guys here think it would not have much affect then sure i would gladly put some stuff up although there will be many of members that will do anything to get one after i do so i dont know if its a good idea! and i will keep posted on orion by the way thats his name ha ha feelers helped me out with that its the egyptian god of the dead!


Er, isn't Osiris the Egyptian god of the dead? Orion is a constellation of "the hunter"-- wikipedia says he's also a Titan in Greek mythology.

Anyway, from a purely greedy standpoint, I would love to see pictures of and hear stories about Orion, and I hope he does well in your tank. But I'll understand if you are worried about that. It seems to me that if the pix and videos are included in this thread or one that explicitly states that you/we don't believe these animals should be collected and sold as pets at all, it might be OK-- in fact, maybe people looking for videos when deciding about them would be exposed to the reasons not to support the trade, etc. Alternatively, maybe they could be posted in some restricted way so that only registered TONMO users were allowed to see them, or there was a very explicit notice about them, or something.

Also, although it sounds like your LFS guy is pretty reasonable already, I was thinking it would be a good idea to show him the discussion on this thread, since he's in a position to have some influence on the trade (and I think he came across as looking very responsible and reasonable in your descriptions.)

:welcome: Orion ( we don't have a mimic/wonderpus smilie!)

oops i put orion yeah its osiris i meant to put that ha ha! typo! and see that would be totally fine to put some vids and pics up i just dont want it to send the wrong message that its okay to keep them cuz its not! so i will keep track of everything, water changes food ect. everything and anything even every crab and shrimp its ate when it comes out and when it hides, if it inks just everything that you can think of will be written down! i hope to have a huge research paper photos and all within in the time i host my little buddy! and hey monty thats an awesome idea i will let him read this when i go to the lfs again so he can get a better understanding and different view points!

but are smilies just gif's? if so i could make hundreds im really good with paint shop pro and this gif animator! so if thats the case just give me ideas and i will make them into smilys!