I have a cascade canister on my big tank, I have always had a problems with nitrates and doing some research have found that canisters are one of the reasons why... Is there a safe way to remove it without having a major effect on my tank???????

just take the guts out the canister and run it with rubble in it itll be fine

wont that cause a tank crash if i remove all the filter media??????

no just dont do it all at once do 1 part every couple of days and when empty just put rubble in and put a carbon pack on top so you can change that out every now and then

Canisters have the same drawbacks as bio-balls, they're nitrate factories !
Sponges, while great for your water clarity, accumulate nitrates like crazy. If you really want to keep your can as is, the best thing to do is trash the sponge filters and use throw-away filter pad. But, here's the rub, if you want to eliminate nitrates, you need to change it out at least every 3 days. Who wants to deal with that beating?
Joefish has nailed your second option. Slow and steady removal of the sponges. If you have a nice supply of cycled live rock that's been in the tank for a while, this will speed up the removal. Live sand too? Even better. In fact, if you've got a good supply of both of these, I wouldn't even bother with the rubble in the can. I'd just use it to run carbon and circulate water.( Just make sure you test the water thoroughly right before every phase of the removal. If there's any hiccup in the results, wait a few days and test again. )

I have looked around a fair bit about cannister filters, and I would say that there seems to be a lot of dislike about them among the reef community, that may not be entirely fair.
A cannister filter will begin to accumulate nitrates as it can become blocked very easily,- in order for it to work for, not against you it must be appropiately mechanicially filtered to prevent any particles reaching the media.
I know of many successful reef keepers who use cannisters - and do so without nitrates. I am not sure how often they replace the prefilter, I do believe that many just wash it out. A sponge is not recommended as a prefilter, as munkeybutt said, but I'm not really sure what people use otherwise.

A sponge is not recommended as a prefilter, but I'm not really sure what people use otherwise.

Bingo! That's the problem. These things (Eheim's, Rena's, Fluval's, ect.)come with foam sponge filters as standard equipment. These filters need to be properly cleaned or it can snowball into big problem-o's, i.e. increases in nitrate. I've seen people with 2 sets so they can dry one in the sunshine to sterilize while running the other. Don't get me wrong, I'm not opposed to them. They're great for mechanical filtration but they leave alot to be desired when it comes to biological filtration. I just wouldn't use one on a tank bigger than 55g, but that's a personal opinion.
One more bad rap against. (man, it does sound like I hate these things) I have seen Fluvals on 2 seperate occasions heat up in the impellor housing and try to cook an aquarium like a runaway heater.

Colin uses a very fine prefilter, and he hasnt cleaned his bioballs for 3 years!!, I dont know if he washes the prefilter, Colin?

Ok here is the run down on my tank, Nancy you have seen it, I have a 150, when my LFS closed down i took all the teenagers i could find to help them move out and they gave me the whole show tank full of LR, I was giving it away i had so much. Anyway, I have so much LR now, that i have a 30 gal below the tank i use as part of the sump full of LR and it drains into another 30gal which holds my PS and return. Also in the main tank I have ALOT of LR. Before all this took place i used the canister as a mechanical fitler but now its just a pain in the Butt. Thus why I want to remove the nitrate producing pain it is. OKOK im rambling, to much coffee this morning:bonk: Thus my question on removal....:razz:

If you've got all that live rock its probably already sustaining your tank. Assuming you have a skimmer, I think you shouldn't have to worry about any more mechanical filtration than what it and the prefilter on your overflow are providing.

Dan

:rainbow: :rainbow: :rainbow: Thanks!!!!!! That is exactly what i was hoping for!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Guess i can always use the canister on a FW tank:lol: ...................

Yeah if you have that much rock you dont need the cannister at all, I wish I was in that position!!!

Hi everyone,

I hear that cannister filters and bioballs are getting a beating :lol:

Well, for me to be devil's advocate means that I will stick up for good old fashion filtration on our cephalopod tanks and stick my neck out and say they do a fine job. But let me explain their place in all this...

We are not keeping reef tanks here. A cephalopod which is fed a healthy and varied diet is not a reef friendly animal for the average aquarium and is more than certainly classified as an ammonia machine.

They, by their very nature, produce a lot of ammonia, they eat a lot of meaty foods and they make a big mess while doing so. They also produce sucker disks by the bucketload! This is all anathema for a reef tank!

Many reef keepers these days, subscribe to such methods as Berlin, Sheng and others which rely on live rock being the only filtration in a tank with some skimmer action or sometimes without a skimmer altogether for the totally 'natural' tank. The tanks i set up last year are running on live rock only. No skimming, just live rock and hefty circulation and the odd water change. But then again, there is about 200 gallons, 150kg of rock and only about 15 fish.

The average lifespan of a reef tank is measured in years and in the long run, something which is producing a stack of nitrate is not welcome, so i wouldnt use a cannister or bioballs in a reef tank again. However, i certainly would in a large fish tank with messy predators.

The average cepahlopod tank has a lifespan measured in months and having such a large messy predator in a tank is far too much for liverock alone. In fact, I would suggest that after an octopus for example, has lived out its life in a tank, that it may even be best if the tank is stripped down and re setup before another cepahlopod is added???

If you are using bioballs the prefilter should ideally be washed on a weekly basis or at least while doing monthly water changes.

Unless you have a tank in excess of 200 gals and a stack of live rock, efficient skimming and good water movement i wouldnt stop using a cannister filter. Even it is in a mechanical fashion to physically trap and remove lrge dirt particles or in a chemical fashion as a place to house carbon or rowaphos etc.

I have ran out of time as i need to go to work this monring but any arguments or comments are welcome to help clarify all this

cheers
colin

Hi everyone,

I hear that cannister filters and bioballs are getting a beating :lol:

Well, for me to be devil's advocate means that I will stick up for good old fashion filtration on our cephalopod tanks and stick my neck out and say they do a fine job. But let me explain their place in all this...

We are not keeping reef tanks here. A cephalopod which is fed a healthy and varied diet is not a reef friendly animal for the average aquarium and is more than certainly classified as an ammonia machine.

They, by their very nature, produce a lot of ammonia, they eat a lot of meaty foods and they make a big mess while doing so. They also produce sucker disks by the bucketload! This is all anathema for a reef tank!

Many reef keepers these days, subscribe to such methods as Berlin, Sheng and others which rely on live rock being the only filtration in a tank with some skimmer action or sometimes without a skimmer altogether for the totally 'natural' tank. The tanks i set up last year are running on live rock only. No skimming, just live rock and hefty circulation and the odd water change. But then again, there is about 200 gallons, 150kg of rock and only about 15 fish.

The average lifespan of a reef tank is measured in years and in the long run, something which is producing a stack of nitrate is not welcome, so i wouldnt use a cannister or bioballs in a reef tank again. However, i certainly would in a large fish tank with messy predators.

The average cepahlopod tank has a lifespan measured in months and having such a large messy predator in a tank is far too much for liverock alone. In fact, I would suggest that after an octopus for example, has lived out its life in a tank, that it may even be best if the tank is stripped down and re setup before another cepahlopod is added???

If you are using bioballs the prefilter should ideally be washed on a weekly basis or at least while doing monthly water changes.

Unless you have a tank in excess of 200 gals and a stack of live rock, efficient skimming and good water movement i wouldnt stop using a cannister filter. Even it is in a mechanical fashion to physically trap and remove lrge dirt particles or in a chemical fashion as a place to house carbon or rowaphos etc.

I have ran out of time as i need to go to work this monring but any arguments or comments are welcome to help clarify all this

cheers
colin

:bonk: Well I have sat on the fence with this decision for a long time now. The constant changing of the filter media, the nitrate problem, etc......is why I started this thread, to see who does what. I have always had a canister and have spent big $$ on them to be bigger than what i needed, to over filter. Now that I have so much LR, I did some research and found an enormous amount of info leaning on both sides. I don't think I have enough water movement in the tank, but I'm a helpless over doer:razz: Think smarter not harder. But this one is driving me crazy.... I don't want my tank to crash, what a nightmare that is. I don't want to under filter my tank, makes to much work. I get so much pleasure out of my tank, hell its like having another child to take care of, I love it. I guess I just want to do whats right for the tank and its inhabitants....man I'm confused:confused:


by the way ...I love the spell check so early in the morning:razz:

Hmm--maybe I should add a canister or a bioballs to my system.

Will bioballs be effective at all underwater, or must the water trickle?

Dan

Yeah Dan I was thinking the same thing, I have a normal cannister filter, ie its not a w/d.

Its a cheap chineese eheim 2028 knockoff, for about 1/8th the price. Its good for a tank up to 1200 L apparently.

http://www.deepblueaquarium.co.nz/EquipmentPhoto/jebao918S.jpghttp://images.google.co.nz/images?q=tbn:6jbnLc_TNRkJ:www.webzoo.net/db/bilder/x72200527798.jpg

Spot the difference? haha, the left one is my cheapo. US about $97.
Im real happy with it, but I was told not to use it(by reefers). I will be filling it with nylon pot scrubbers - they have more surface area than bioballs I have read, and provide easier flow, meaning they dont block as easily.

dbbga - Why dont you try slowly removing it, take some readings, then chuck it back if you were better off with it?
As long as you do it all slowly I dont think your tank would crash. Maybe you can help people like me come to a decision on whether to use it or not!!!


As a related question, what happens if you put live rock in your cannister?

well, i'd guess that if you put live rock in the filter it would get clogged very quickly and that would defeat the purpose of having it in there. The reason the rock needs a good flow in a tank is partly to prevent clogging and dead spots. But then, I haven't tried it... possibly these dead spots would be good for anaerobic bacteria converting nitrate to nitrogen?

My cephalopod right now is about 80 UK gals. It has about 25kg of live rock. Mechanical filtration is done by a fluval 1 internal filter. An aquamedic 1000 multi skimmer is witched on for about 2 days a week and a 10 - 15% water change monthly.
Vigorous water movement is provided by air stones.
It only houses 4 sepia bandensis.

I dont think I would try this set up with an octopus which is going to get big like a bimac, briareus or vulgaris etc.... there would be too much waste for the rock to cope with alone

Colin what are your water parameters like? - at nil or are there nitrates present?

whats the maximum acceptable limit for nitrates?

I have a different opinion of bio balls, but we've been over that one before ! (hate em)
Canisters, though, I am quite fond of...but I don't run them fulltime, either. Using them with the cleaning pads and a lot of carbon a few times a week, for a couple of hours, really removes a lot of stuff from the water, and causes no spike in nitrates.

Personally, I don't really care for Fluval's very much, and tend to gravitate towards the Rainbow/Lifeguard or Magnum can filters...much more aggressive, and meant for intermittent use.

greg

Ive mentioned this before with limited response but maybe this is the place to throw a spanner in the works an say ....since the canister is for housing anti-phosphate media, carbon and a mechanical filter

what are peoples thoughts on replacing with a sepaerate mechanical filter, then using two reactors (ones made by two little fishies but loads of other reatailers out there) so you can fluidise the ferrous iron and carbon and get more out of them rather than them getting dry at times with a canister?

Please tell me im talkin rubbish if you think so, no one seems to have an opinon on this, either good or bad.

Nice one

I dont think I have ever had a tank with nil nitrates... ever and dont think it is much of a problem for cephalopods as long as extremes are avoided... probably best to aim for under 50ppm

I have a different opinion of bio balls, but we've been over that one before ! (hate em)
Canisters, though, I am quite fond of...but I don't run them fulltime, either. Using them with the cleaning pads and a lot of carbon a few times a week, for a couple of hours, really removes a lot of stuff from the water, and causes no spike in nitrates.

Personally, I don't really care for Fluval's very much, and tend to gravitate towards the Rainbow/Lifeguard or Magnum can filters...much more aggressive, and meant for intermittent use.

greg


Greg,

So when your canister isn't running do you just have a prefilter, skimmer and the LR doing the work?

Reefkeepers tend to think of maintaining their system as balancing an ecosystem. It seems ceph-keepers should view their tanks as more of a life-support system.

Dan

My tanks are mostly modified reef setups...so yep, I use a prefilter, skimmer, and a lot of LR...fairly heavy water flow.
Using the rainbow/lifeguard flush filter does an astounding job of picking up detritus in just a few minutes, but it can be messy !

Have always had trouble with eheims and fluvals, I know it is just me though, as all of my friends love them.

greg

My tanks are mostly modified reef setups...so yep, I use a prefilter, skimmer, and a lot of LR...fairly heavy water flow.
Using the rainbow/lifeguard flush filter does an astounding job of picking up detritus in just a few minutes, but it can be messy !

Have always had trouble with eheims and fluvals, I know it is just me though, as all of my friends love them.

greg


My 75 gallon system has a similar "reef-like" setup and I want to push it up a notch for an octo. Right now I have around 70 lbs of live rock and a Turboflotor 1000 in the 30 gallon sump. After the advice posted in this thread, I'm definately going to add some active filtration. Since my PVC system for the skimmer puts part of my overflow into the skimmer and just pours the other part into the sump, it would be very easy for me to add a bioball tower about 6" x 12" x ~20" tall next to the skimmer. I don't know how effective that would be, but if a canister would be better I'd pay for it.

Dan

Well, there are a lot of people with quite a lot of experience (like Colin) who have had good luck with bio balls...I never have. I use the can filter to remove detritus from the tank itself, kind of like a shop vac...don't know if it would be worth the $$ to use in the sump or not.

greg

Greg, would you be so good as to share some details about your tank, specifically its volume, how many pounds of LR and what your flow rate is?

I hate to push on this too hard, but I'm really interested in finding some baseline numbers of good, proven setups.

Dan

Tanks are all down right now, as the big move approaches (nothing sucks more than moving...aaarrrgghhh)...but, the tanks are/were:
55 gallon, 50+lbs of fiji rock, almost 700 gph in flow (this one was set up for three years without incident, and will be the bimac tank at the new house)...20 gallon sump, Rio pumps, 1" of sand on the bottom.

2 50 gallons, 50 lbs + of mixed rock, 400/350 gph flow, no sump (mixed fish tanks), 2" of sand on bottom.

37 high tank, 40 lbs of fiji rock, 200 gph, 10 gallon sump, 1/2" of sand...this will hopefully be the little cuttle tank in the new place.

We are going to adding on a 125 gallon tank too, but it is a plant tank for Piglet (my bichir)

I use a rainbow lifeguard portable system for the bottom vaccing weekly...has worked out really well for me !!

Tanks are all down right now...

That is a lot of flow, indeed! Good luck with the move. The tanks turned out to be the least painful part of my cross-country move this fall. Just this week I noticed I have a small conchoidal fracture on an edge of my 30, presumably from the move. Its been holding OK for a few months, but we're going to replace it this weekend to be safe.

Dan

Ouch! Nothing more fun than coming home to a house full of smelly salt water soaked carpet !!!

Damn. I get busy for a few days and miss a great conversation!
Scouse: your thinking is sound , although I've never done it, it should work. Would make an interesting experiment. If you try it, lemme know what happens.
I'm still new to the octo thing, so I guess what really matters is what level of nitrates the little dude can take before it stresses him out. I know fish can take quite a bit. I've heard from good sources that SeaWorld has 'trate levels in their fish only tanks that would make you head swim (no pun intended).
Just incase anyone's interested I've had the least amount of troble with Magnum filters, with a good micron cartridge and a carbon bag. If I was gonna use one on a cheph tank, that's prob'ly the way I'd go.

So what type of flows are acceptable? I have a massive return I think, my tank is 300L and my return is 8100lph (2142gph). But thats at zero head, its a luguna pond pump. I have yet to work out how high my return will need to go, so the flow will obviously lessen because of this.

I like overkill, and this was the only place I could afford it lol :grin:

On the side of the box it came in, or perhaps on their website, they should list the pump output at different heights...at a guess, I would half the output at around 24" or so...

I try to go with 1 to 1.5 the gallon return of the total of the tank as a "thumb" rule.

In addition to the height you're moving the water up, you lose a lot of energy with each 90 degree elbow. I forget the usual approximation, but somewhere around one or one and a half feet of hydraulic head per PVC elbow?

Dan

it really depends alot on the size of the spinner and magnet assembly...some of them can push a fair bit at each joint, others just wuss out.

hello,,,

New to this salt water thing and octo's in general, but i have a spare 55 gal that over the next 6 months or so would like to set up for an octo.

I do have a turtle, a red eared slider, in a 90 gallon tank, with about 50 gallons of water of in it, and a dozen or so fish (depending on what he munches)

Between his pooping, the fish are constantly trailing little presents, and all the food that gets spit out or what ever when he eats, the tank stays fairly clean, and nitrates stay relativley low.

And i run an XP3 and a middle sized Eheim cannister filter.

is there that big a difference with salt water set ups?

I would think if that set up could keep up with a 18 year old turtle, an octo wouldnt be much harder?