I'd love to know what kind of squid this is:

http://www.soest.hawaii.edu/HURL/gallery.html

At the very least, this photo answers the age-old question: How does a squid say "**** off?"

The above site also features some dramatic images of Cirroteuthis and Mastigoteuthis.

Clem

i think i remember seeing a pic of a squid something like that and i think it might've been moroteuthis.... of course i could just be an idiot....

WK,

I thought it might be Moroteuthis as well. The threat-posture taken by the beastie makes it hard to determine what its "normal" proportions are. Are the arms always that long, the mantle always that bulbous, or have both been "inflated" by the squid to discourage the ROV?

I'm guessing that the ventral pair of arms is tucked up behind the squid's head and mantle, and the tentacles coiled within the arm corona; neither set is clearly visible in the photo.

:?:

Clem

That really is a tough one. It is almost impossible to determine the shape of the fins, and rather difficult to count those arms (I can only see 6, and no tentacles). Bizarre! The skin looks quite smooth, the fins quite small, there seems to be no 'tail' at the back (where the fins are drawn out into an acute point), and there appear to be suckers (rather than hooks) along the arms (discounting a gonatid squid).

It seems like they have gone out of there way to post the most difficult picture to identify .... but my gut feeling is that it is not a Moroteuthis (although I haven't a clue what else it could be). I'd like to see more imagery before attaching a name to it.
Cheers
O

Well, for my $2 worth, I thought it was Moroteuthis too, though I thought the mantle looked a little swollen and stubby and the fins not arrow-shaped enough. The colour resembles all the footage I have seen of Moro and the exceptionally long arms look about right to me.

But, what do I know?

Jean, what do you think?

I did a little cutting and zooming on the image in an attempt to pick out helpful details, and numbered the visible arms (see attachment).

Subjected to the most rigorous scientific analysis (paper cut outs, bent and twisted), the paired fins appear to be broadly "heart" shaped, with only a minute point and very little taper.

There does appear to be some texture to the mantle, at least on the dorasl and lateral surfaces; the ventral portion of the mantle appears quite smooth, by contrast. (Smoothed-out by inflation, maybe?)

Also: I think I found a tentacle, but it's very small, almost vestigial looking.

http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/download.php?id=218

Hi guys,

Fraid I'm with Steve on this one! I don't think it's Moroteuthis it doesn't seem robust enough and even with the mantle inflated I feel it would still be lumpy as the warts are formed from almost calcareous/cartilagenous plates and don't smooth out.

Admittedly I've only seenM. ingens and M. robusta but these are both big solid animals and the tentacles are correspondingly big (unless of course your guy lost one and was regenerating). In addition Moroteuthis has hooks on the tentacle clubs.

Any idea on the size of the beastie?? and what depth was it filmed in?? All M. ingens round this neck of the woods tend to be in deep water, hanging round 600- 1400m.

Sorry I can only add to the confusion :bugout:

Cool pic though and what a bizarre posture!

J

reference:
Jackson, G.D., Shaw, A.G. P., & Lalas, C. 2000. Distrubution and biomass of two squid species off southern New Zealand: Nototodarus sloanii and Moroteuthis ingens Polar Biology vol 23(10) p. 699-705

Jean wrote:

Any idea on the size of the beastie?? and what depth was it filmed in?? All M. ingens round this neck of the woods tend to be in deep water, hanging round 600- 1400m.

According to the site at which the photo is presented, the animal was photographed at 417m. No idea how large (or small) it might be. Too bad the ROV didn't have a scale reference point in front of the camera lens.

Jean and Steve, I agree with you: compared to all the Moroteuthis images I've seen, this beastie just doesn't quite fit the profile. And then there's that weird posture. The Moro filmed by an ROV in the Monterey Canyon ("Amazing Suckers") was spotted near the bottom, but swimming horizontally; the arm/mantle size ratio on this mystery squid would suggest an animal whose "default" orientation was vertical.

To heck with it. I'm gonna write to the folks in Hawaii who took this picture. This means war.

Clem

.... if they have a movie clip of this we could make an identification for sure (or at least additional stills images).

At that sort of depth (417 m) there HAVE to be specimens of it in collections (that's quite shallow by research standards), so it is very likely to be something that is well known. Because the animal lives closely associated with the sea floor (I know it is dangerous to make this statement/assumption on the basis of a single image/observation), it is very likely that specimens have been captured by fisheries bottom trawl or research epibenthic sled (and deposited in some museum somewhere).

If there were apparent photophores on the mantle and arms, slightly shorter arms (relative to the mantle length), and a better-developed (or more obvious) buccal membrane, I'd be quite happy referring it to Histioteuthis ..... (the shape of the mantle and fins are rather Histioteuthis -like)

...... but it doesn't!

Clem, pull some strings and get some additional images would you :heee:
Cheers
O

If there were apparent photophores on the mantle and arms, slightly shorter arms (relative to the mantle length), and a better-developed (or more obvious) buccal membrane, I'd be quite happy referring it to Histioteuthis ..... (the shape of the mantle and fins are rather Histioteuthis -like)

...... but it doesn't!

Clem, pull some strings and get some additional images would you :heee:
Cheers
O


Steve,


Last night, I watched the Histioteuthis video over at Cephbase.org, and had much the same thought re: the mantle and fins. Perhaps this is Histioteuthis with its arms at full extension ("**** off" mode); could photophores on the mantle be obscured by the bright wash of lights from the ROV?

You'd think that if the squid in question were well-known, it would be identified at soest.hawaii.edu. They labelled everything else in their gallery.

As for additional images and/or explanations: I'm working on it. :wink:

Clem

could photophores on the mantle be obscured by the bright wash of lights from the ROV?

After looking at the Histioteuthis images over at Tolweb, my answer to my own question is "probably not." Even in the glare of submersible lights, Histioteuthis still clearly shows its mantle & arm photophores. Different Histio species have photophores of varying prominence and reflectivity (sometimes because of sexual dimorphism), but they're still hard to miss.

An e-mailed plea for help is currently making its way through hawaii.edu. Should have an answer soon.

Grrr.

Just a thought, but if this were Histioteuthis (and I know no-one is saying that it is), then where are the tentacles? Shouldn't the mantle be covered in clearly visible light organs scattered all over the body and arms? I can't believe the lights from the ROV would drown out all of the photophores. (Sorry Clem, not copying you, I looked at some pictures of Histioteuthis and had a similar thought).

Make sure you get a decent reply from Hawaii, OK?

Five minutes later (literally)...

Ms. Rachel Shackelford has written to inform me that our mystery squid "has been identified as Histioteuthis hoylei."

Thanks to Rachel and to Ms. Tara Hicks, both at hawaii.edu, for chasing down this information.

For details, see Tolweb's Histioteuthis hoylei entry, here:

http://tolweb.org/tree?group=Histioteuthis_hoylei&contgroup=Histioteuthidae

Perhaps I'm just tired, but I still don't see any photophores on the squid that started all of this.


:sleeping:

Clem

Here's the latest from Rachel Shackelkford, Data Manager at SOEST/HURL:


Hi Adam,

Since you guys seem so interested in this animal, I thought I'd send you a couple more images. When I have time, I might see about putting a video clip up on the web too.

The ROV does have a couple lasers, 6 inches apart, used for scale. Unfortunately, in these images I can only see one of them. The other may be camouflaged in the squid. The recollection of one of the guys here who was onboard during this dive was that the squid was about 2-3 ft long.

The principal investigator for that particular dive was Frank Parrish of the National Marine Fisheries Service. The ROV pilots (camera operators) for that dive were Chris Taylor and Dan Greeson, both HURL employees at the time.

Aloha,
Rachel


Thank you, Rachel, for your generous assistance. Such public-mindedness is rare. Thanks again to Tara Hicks, for putting me in touch with the right data manager. The two "new" Histioteuthis hoylei images are attached below (visible photophores included). Rachel Shackelford has also updated the photo caption for the beastie at soest.hawaii.edu.

Clem

http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/download.php?id=236

http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/download.php?id=237

....and thank you too Clem :thumbsup: !!! Yes, I'm very happy referring the animal to Histioteuthis now (now that the photophores are apparent).

When we first started our work on live squid years ago I was often observed scratching my head - the live animals are very different from the preserved museum specimens and you had to learn an entirely new suite of characters/character states and mannerisms to identify them (without handling them). Nowadays I still scratch my head, but that might be the company I keep :wink:

It is very difficult identifying genera on the basis of single images, especially when important systematic characters cannot be discerned. Nice that this identification can be confirmed.
Cheers
O

I'm soooooooo glad it's been ID'd and not as a Moroteuthis species!!! I was just waiting for smoeone to ID it as the incredibly rare Moroteuthis fuzzballii:lol:


I'm afraid I'm still slightly in the "why would anyone ask ME??" state :oops: I believe we grow out of it tho' don't we????????

J

I'm afraid I'm still slightly in the "why would anyone ask ME??" state :oops: I believe we grow out of it tho' don't we????????

J

Jean,

In my opinion, the good ones never grow out of it.

:roll:

Clem

A recent image search turned up two more squid sans identification, which I've attached below. One of the squid was scooped up in a net by a fly-fisherman, from the water's surface near Inhaca Island, Mozambique.

The other one appears on a very strange web-page, devoted to speculations on how the alien creatures from James Cameron's "The Abyss" could have generated a controlled tsunami. The pictured squid was said to have been trawled from the Gulf of Mexico.

The Mozambique teuthid's eye, pictured in close-up, appears to have a large photophore on its surface; the other squid, rather poorly photographed, appears to have been fatally confused by its context.

To see the photos in their original contexts, click on the links below.

:?:

http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/download.php?id=244

http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/download.php?id=243

http://www.africanfishing.com/indigo/
http://www.innerx.net/personal/tsmith/DolphinAbyss.html

That first picture: no idea.

The second, perhaps it is a juvenile Thysanoteuthis (Diamond backed squid) or possibly a Sepioteuthis. I basing this on photos in Mark Norman's book.

Mind you, I was completely wrong last time and I'm probably completely wrong now!

Phil, between the two of us, we might get somewhere. I had no guesses about the Mozambique squid, and one guess for the Gulf critter: Pholidoteuthius adami. Despite the not-so-great quality of the photo, you can make out lots of little bumps on the mantle; these dermal pads are consistent with Pholidoteuthis morphology, as are the large fins, round head and slight tentacular clubs. P. adami is also common in the Gulf of Mexico. (For more details, check out the link below.)

Any other USOs out there? Besides the ones Steve and Kat like to drop hints about? :roll:

Clem

http://tolweb.org/tree?group=Pholidoteuthis_adami&contgroup=Pholidoteuthidae

Clem, I think you might be bang on target with Pholidoteuthis. Having looked at photos of the diamond-back this afternoon, I don't think I've got the other squid right. The fins don't look pronounced enough though it is hard to tell in the photo.

Why do I even pretend I could hazard a guess? I have not got the faintest idea about either of them!

Oi! Self-deprecation! Phil, your sepioid suggestion might not have been far off the mark. There are bathyteuthids known as "comb-fins," whose fins extend nearly the full length of the mantle, supported by very thin ribs. Hard to be sure, but in the first photo of the series, it looks like the Mozambique beastie might have such fins. The second photo in the series shows a hard line running around the mid-line of the mantle: perhaps the fin folded down against the body?

Clem

....hmmmmmm

Well, again they've gone out of their way to take photographs that miss all of the systematic characters you need to make an informed identification.

The Gulf of Mexico beast - interesting. The scales are too small for it to be Lepidoteuthis, and it does look as if it had tentacles (the two narrow limbs, partially in shot); Lepidoteuthis by this stage (mantle length - even though no scale is provided it is obvious we are not looking at a paralarva) has only 8 arms (the tentacles would be several mm long, filamentous and not visible) ; so, Lepidoteuthis can be discounted.

We get Pholidoteuthis boschmai here in New Zealand waters; I've never seen an adult with tentacles (they are always lost/jettisoned/?autotomised at capture); but whatever it is it certainly is not this species. I've not ever seen P. adami (other than pics in books) - but if that is a colour photograph (I am having trouble - am quite colour blind; things look very brown/purply or black to me) then I doubt it is a Pholidoteuthis (the colour of which is very (indisputably) red for both P. adami and P. boschmai). The way the skin has abraded from the posterior portion of the mantle (the pointy end; where the skin goes from scaley and dark to smooth and white) is very Pholidoteuthis-like (I think there's something interesting in this area in live Pholidoteuthis that is lost during capture; either fantastically delicate skin, something glandular or something structural; I'd love to know what it was).

It could very easily be a species of Mastigoteuthis (including those referred to Echinoteuthis or Magnoteuthis); I've seen large things just like this before, this colour (if a colour pic) ... and in fact am describing one right now. I really need to see the 'tail' on the beast, a close-up pic of the sucker rings and a squiz at either the mantle- or funnel-locking cartilage to make an ident (in fact the locking cartilage would suffice to make an ident).

Re the other pic, I've seen one Thysanoteuthis rhombus only (bizarre, taken from 50°S - well outside of its recognised distribution). What struck me when I first looked at it was how similar it was to Sepioteuthis in overall facies. In fact Thysanoteuthis was first described as a Sepioteuthis, so we weren't the first to make that mistake. I'll either/or this myself right now (though the eye is a give away).

I think the other squid you refer to (the one with ribs down the fins) ... is that Chthenopteryx? Chthenopteryx is a very distinctive (and small) squid .... not a lot like this brute I'm afraid.

Disclaimer "everything written above could be total nonsense"
Cheers
O

...I really need to see the 'tail' on the beast, a close-up pic of the sucker rings and a squiz at either the mantle- or funnel-locking cartilage to make an ident (in fact the locking cartilage would suffice to make an ident).

What's a squiz?

:|

Clem

Sorry Clem, that's 'Steve speak' for 'good look'.

Hiding away in an office or spending most of my time in solitude (at sea/home) I tend to invent my own language.
Cheers
O

oh gawd, it must be infectious, I also use "squiz" for 'look see' :shock:

J

Have a squiz at the big, red cobber on this page:

http://oregonstate.edu/~palaciod/galcet2k/photos.htm

Should be a box of fluffies to ID this one.

Thank goodness they took the time to caption the Nyctiphanes simplex larvae.

:roll:

Clem

Hmmmmmmmmm.

Stab in the dark, but most likely a spent/mature female Moroteuthis, and based on the attenuated tail, one of either M. robsoni or M. robusta.

Hard to say though .... would like to check out the tentacular club armature (to look for hooks).

Where do you find all of these?
Cheers
O

Steve,

I noticed that the first arms are noticeably smaller than the rest on this Moroteuthis. Is that common to all Moros?

As for where I find these pictures, I just run a Google image search, using the word "squid" with different modifiers. Lots of pictures of disappointed looking fishermen hoisting Dosidicus. There's a few images of your more hirsute self, as well.

Clem

Please don't encourage him to wear the hair suit...

Alright, Kat, I'll make a deal with you: I won't mention it, if you'll tell me whether or not the first arms of Moroteuthis are typically smaller than the rest.

Deal?

:roll:

Fair enough.
I've just looked at ~8 Moroteuthis of varying species (and am fume-giddy to prove it), and in all but one (which may be new) the first arms are shorter than the rest, and range from marginally to significantly narrower.
There's my end of the bargain... now ix-nay on the air-hay uit-say.
Much obliged ;)

I've just looked at ~8 Moroteuthis of varying species (and am fume-giddy to prove it)...

FLASH:Epidemic of Squid Huffing Ravages Antipodean Youth

...and in all but one (which may be new) the first arms are shorter than the rest, and range from marginally to significantly narrower.

Thank you, Kat. Let us know about that odd Moro.

Since we can't see much of the tentacular clubs on the latest un-captioned squid, a positive ID can't be guaranteed per Kat and Steve's rules of engagement. I don't see any of the fleshy warts on the mantle that adorn Moroteuthis robsoni. M. robusta looks like a good, provisional bet.

There's a fine Japanese squid site, www.zen-ika.com, at which one can find integrated morphological briefs, distribution maps and (mostly) color photographs of the teuthids we've considered in this thread. Even for those of us who don't know the language, the site is easy to navigate and eminently user-friendly. Here's a link to their species index:

http://www.zen-ika.com/zukan/search-e.html

Clem

Clem, an alternative identification could be a spent female Ancistroteuthis 'lichtensteinii' (also an onychoteuthid); it differs from Moroteuthis in being smooth skinned (there are other differences). The specimen does have a definite 'onychoteuthid' look to it.

Ancistroteuthis from New Zealand is quite small (not like this brute), but I think we'll find the New Zealand taxon to be new (true A. lichtensteinii is a reasonable-sized squid).
Cheers
O

Ahh, thankee, Steve. The plot thickens.

Apart from the lack of a visible hectocylus, are there other, visual cues that shout "spent female?" If so, what are they? I've not a clue.

Here are some nice squid beaks from Alaska. Two sets are identified, one is not:

http://marine.alaskapacific.edu/octopus/specimens/beaksquid.html

The identified specimens are from Berryteuthis magister, which reaches a maximum known ML (mantle length) of 25cm. The unidentified beak is twice as large as the Berryteuthis set; large squid in the Gulf of Alaska include Moroteuthis robusta(yawn), Taningia danae and Todarodes pacifica, with maximum MLs of 200cm, 140cm and 50cm, respectively.

Any champeen hoss-head beak-sifters out there? Ms. Bolstad?

:?:

For those following this thread with regard to the photo of the Living Giant Squid... this thread has been split, and the discussion is now here (http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=1358).

Click here (http://www.env.duke.edu/IncipientRift/graphics/squid.jpg) to see what a Duke University research team described as, first, a "baby giant squid," and then later as "a normal squid." It is in fact a cirrate (finned) octopod. The Duke team doesn't provide the depth at which the photo was taken, but their group was performing mapping and sampling work of the Incipient Rift, a tectonic feature on the seafloor in the equatorial East Pacific. Dredged samples and photos were taken at an average depth of 3,000 meters.

:?:

Clem

It is way hard to put a name on those things on the basis of a picture as most of the characters used to identify them aren't apparent.

What I will say is that it definitely is not Luteuthis, Opisthoteuthis or Cirroctopus, and that it is unlikely to be Cirroteuthis muelleri or Grimpoteuthis (both in the strictest of senses) - debate could wage here (unlikely, but not impossible - I'd say 40% likely to be, 60% unlikely). It doesn't leave many described genera (Cirrothauma, Stauroteuthis and Enigmatiteuthis [even though someone recently considered the latter a synonym of Grimpoteuthis, they NEVER looked at Type material - very poor systematics as far as science is concerned - it's like me a synonymising match- and cigarette boxes because I couldn't see past the fact that both were boxes]).

In the pic the eyes are discernible, but they're not 'normal-sized' by the looks of things; this makes it more like Cirrothauma, but the area is poorly sampled and there could be all manner of new species (and genera) in the region; I've seen pics of cirrates that do not fit into any known genus, so there is plenty left to describe/discover.

What does this thing eat? That looks pretty barren countryside down there.

Hey Phil!

Remember that little debate we had about the diversity of ceph body forms some time ago? I think we're seeing everyone else on TONMO having it for us! :lol:

Good photos. I wonder what zen-ika has to say about it?

Sushi and Sake,

John