Main_board,

It's just fun to bitch! Would you take that simple pleasure away from us? The choir IS for preaching to!

Right, sorry. Try to make people more constructive. How silly of me. Reverend, will ya eva fergive me? :bonk:

Cheers!

In Cthulhu's Good Time.

Glub!:cthulhu:

This is totally off topic, but I would love a full explanation of this Cthulhu creature. Some one should start a thread regarding biographical information. Where is it from (in human creation, not where is he said to reside)? What role does it play in whatever it is involved in? What the heck is it? etc. Anyways...

Cheers!

This is totally off topic, but I would love a full explanation of this Cthulhu creature. Some one should start a thread regarding biographical information. Where is it from (in human creation, not where is he said to reside)? What role does it play in whatever it is involved in? What the heck is it? etc. Anyways...

Cheers!


Just who is this Cthulhu guy anyway? (http://www.tonmo.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3241)

I've seen that thread but always figured that it was about the TONMO member Cthulhu, not the actual creature. Silly me. Thanks.

Just thought I'd add the fun statistic that while 15% of Americans may believe in/support ID, 15% of New Zealanders put down 'Jedi' as their religion when registering to vote in the election this year. That's 52,000 people.

"May the squid be with you, always"

http://www.aaas.org/news/releases/2005/1027kansas.shtml

aside re: main_board's comments-- I'm not intending to be "preaching to the choir" here, just providing pointers to interesting information on the topic, since there seem to be several interested people here, although there also seem to be a lot of people who are tired or disinterested (and a few offended)... if I had any idea of how to actually constructively express my opinions in a forum that might make a meaningful impact, I would.

Kat - A similar study was done here in Canada and 20% put down Jedi as well! Canucks and Kiwi's really are alike!

Cheers!

They are, eh. :wink:

:canada: :kiwiflag:

Just thought I'd add the fun statistic that while 15% of Americans may believe in/support ID, 15% of New Zealanders put down 'Jedi' as their religion when registering to vote in the election this year. That's 52,000 people.

In the UK in the last 2001 census, 390,000 people put 'Jedi' on their forms.

I was one of them!

Shame on you!

:cthulhu:

I perfer to keep my religous prefrences seprate from my fish keeping. I think that this is a little off topic and has been up for way to long. Can we keep this form for octopus and cuttlefish please?

I perfer to keep my religous prefrences seprate from my fish keeping. I think that this is a little off topic and has been up for way to long. Can we keep this form for octopus and cuttlefish please?
if you don't like the thread don't read it. the evolution vs id debate BELONGS on the fossils and history forum.
ps. the great one sneers at your puny force

Don't read these posts, then. You know what the thread is about and if you have no interest in the topic, then you are welcome to ignore it. It's very easy to do. The study of cephalopods is part of biology, and this thread deals with the assault on the foundation of biology and the growing disdain for science in general. Every site with even a tangential contact with science should be encouraging discussions of this sort.

if you don't like the thread don't read it. the evolution vs id debate BELONGS on the fossils and history forum.
Alright, I agree with those sentiments.

ps. the great one sneers at your puny force
Whoa, there. I think that's out of line, bigGdelta, even if in jest. As an atheist, I insist on not being sneered at by the religious, and offer them the same courtesy in kind. We've already lost one member who felt put-upon by this thread, and I'd like to not see a repeat.

Clownfish, I can't conceive of how this thread can really be interfering with your enjoyment of the thousands of threads devoted solely to cephalopods. As I said to another disgruntled member recently, if this thread offends thine eye, don't read it. (The other option, of course, is to pluck out your eye, which I don't recommend.) As someone who's posted quite a bit, here, you know that we're a rambling lot with inquiring minds and strong opinions. If you object to this thread on the grounds that it is off-topic, you've made your point. If your objections are intellectual and religious in nature, please, state your case. It irks me a little that when objections are raised on religious grounds, the objectors seldom argue their positions here. I'd like to read some real arguments, frankly.

BigGdelta and Clownfish, I do hope this little rant hasn't put you both off your feed. This is a societal struggle and it's only natural that TONMO should reflect the larger world. But, please, no sneering, and no calls to be quiet.

Cheers,
Clem

BigGdelta and Clownfish, I do hope this little rant hasn't put you both off your feed. This is a societal struggle and it's only natural that TONMO should reflect the larger world. But, please, no sneering, and no calls to be quiet.

Hear, hear!

I have come to an interesting moral dilemma regarding how to deal with pro-IDers excetera.

I think of myself as down to earth, and not out to offend anyone. However I feel that I dont respect anyone who believes in ID just as I wouldnt respect anyone who thinks smoking is good for your health.

Its hard to describe what I mean, I dont want to be accused of having tunnel vision, but I am at the very end of the spectrum. Although to counter that if ID could be prooved I would believe it.

I dont care what the truth is as long as its the truth.

I suppose it is your environment that determines your place on the spectrum.


I still dont see how a guy who's ID talk I listened to, studied and lectured at University, then decided to throw in the logic towel.

Here is someone who knows how the system works, - evidence must be given, you must disproove the null hypothesis ect, and then makes the crazy decision to enter a world of make believe, where everything is fact if you can find it in a book that you dont know the origins of.

It boggles my mind. :shock: It makes me very affraid for the future of humanity.
Especially given that America is the man at the helm of the USS Earth.



Clem, you are a very balanced well-thought-out person, I always like your posts- very insightful :grin: , is it acceptable to have a "closed mind" on such matters even if thats what you think is wrong with your opposition?

That was aimed at those who listed their religion as jedi on the census, not at clownfish. Guess I should have quoted Phil there, but my call alert went off as i was posting and I had to save it before I was finished . I just forgot to go back and add the quote.

Haha I was a jedi too!!! I was on camp when I was 12 maybe, and everyone had to fill out a census. ugh. There were a lot of jedi's on that camp trip.

Got to thinking about the jedi religion thing--maybe Lucas is about to pull an L. Ron Hubbard on us.

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!! (Takes on facial expression resembling Munch's famous stolen painting...)

I can see it now. ID is correct-- the midiclorians made us evolve.

As a resident of Hollywood (where there is L. Ron Hubbard as an official street), let me just state that it could be worse. Won't follow Hubbard or anybody else myself - Cthulhu had me at age 9 - but The Force as a major religion? Other than the stupid Jedi rule of chastity (no offense to other folks with chaste religious leaders) it doesn't really lose much against most of the others. In fact, hmm, it sort of appears cobbled together from most of the others... funny, Joseph Campbell never included Lovecraftian monster gods among his important pantheons.

You'll have to admit though, that when you look like Yoda, chastity is probably the only honourable option left...

:lol:

Ah, no wonder Dorothy wanted to get out of there so badly...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051109/ap_on_re_us/evolution_debate

"It gets rid of a lot of dogma that's being taught in the classroom today."

Kansasinine. This allows something at least as bad as dogma into the classroom. This is good news for "No Child Left Behind", I guess. It's impossible to leave anyone behind if you don't ever go anywhere in the first place.

'In addition, the board rewrote the definition of science, so that it is no longer limited to the search for natural explanations of phenomena.' :bonk:

Motion to rewrite the definition of 'octopus' to include the original 8-appendaged cephalopods, plus puppies, termites, pizza, slime mold, and Wayland Smithers.

Any takers?

I am soo sad that I'm the US public school system...

dear aunt Em,
hate kansas. hate you.
taking the dog.
love dorothy





:mad: If the rules won't let you win, then change the rules. that pesky bit about science requiring evidence got you down? Just change the definition of science. Are physics teachers going to have to teach perpetual motion and heliocentrism? The idea of "teaching both sides" seems to appeal to middle America's inate sense of fairness, but science ain't fair--no evidence then no science.

The Onion is such a great source for news...

Study Reveals Pittsburgh Unprepared For Full-Scale Zombie Attack (http://www.theonion.com/content/node/41676)

Wow! :shock:
I had NO idea that it was that bad! Thank heavens I live north of the border. Our zombies are much more considerate then those of the south. They prefer to make polite chit-chat while they are chasing you down. It really does put one's mind at ease about passing over to the other side. :grin:

Back on subject:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051109/pl_nm/election_usa_evolution_dc

The school board in Pennsylvania that approved teaching ID has been thrown out! I didn't even know that they could do that! Hahaha! One of the new board members said "intelligent design will no longer be a part of the science curriculum, regardless of how the court rules."

Cheers!

hey does ID say anything about zombies? maybe the designer will decide to send waves of zombies to attack us. BTW the definition of octopus should also include people suffering from cranial rectosis

Wow! :shock:
I had NO idea that it was that bad! Thank heavens I live north of the border. Our zombies are much more considerate then those of the south. They prefer to make polite chit-chat while they are chasing you down. It really does put one's mind at ease about passing over to the other side. :grin:

Back on subject:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051109/pl_nm/election_usa_evolution_dc

The school board in Pennsylvania that approved teaching ID has been thrown out! I didn't even know that they could do that! Hahaha! One of the new board members said "intelligent design will no longer be a part of the science curriculum, regardless of how the court rules."

Cheers!a rush of brains to the head thank ghod.

On Nov. 8, citizens of Dover, PA, voted overwhelmingly to oust their school board over the board’s support of “intelligent design”.

Well, well, well… look what the rat dragged in…

Televangelist Pat Robertson today announced something interesting today. Quoted from the nice folks at CNN.com: ‘I'd like to say to the good citizens of Dover: if there is a disaster in your area, don't turn to God, you just rejected Him from your city," Robertson said on his daily television show broadcast from Virginia, "The 700 Club."’

Wow. ‘IF’ there is a disaster in their area, huh? This is the same guy that told residents of Orlando, Florida that they faced “hurricanes, earthquakes,”… and, get this… “terrorist bombs” for the open display of rainbow flags signifying support for homosexuals. The final threat there worried me. It’s the underlying, unsaid “wink wink, nudge nudge” to potential whackjobs looking for people to kill – its undeclared support for terror that worries me, and for remarks like that we should all watch Robertson closely. A few weeks ago he called for the assassination of Venezuelan leader Hugo Chavez. Now, as a brazen affront to science and freedom of political choice, he threatens the people of Dover.

Is this the face of intelligent design? Of course not. Here’s to hoping that someone brings back the “civil” in civil discussions.

John

It's sad that a crazy/evil/confused old $#!k like that can avoid being locked inside the proper instutions simply by his constant reiteration of the 'G'-word. Maybe we should think about taking him (and his ilk) out? And I'm not talking about kidnapping, Pat.

I keep hoping that with his history of shady dealings, agressive takeovers of other peoples' ministries, insanely tactless public statements, and suspicious investments (at home and abroad), that sooner or later he'll take HIMSELF out. Hmm. Been hoping that for almost twenty years now. Surely there's got to be some really good compromising dirt on this guy. It isn't like he keeps a low profile.

I'm sure people see through the schtick after a while...ID was rejected even here in Arizona. (guess I better be on the lookout, huh?)

I wonder why Roberts and the like all seem to feel like they know more about god than anyone else ?

Religion belongs in the church and in the home...not at school.

and if you don't feel the same way I do, I'm quitting and leaving. LOL...

greg

Again, rather than into the origins of man, the religious should do well to look into the origins of religion: a truly liberating experience. With regards to scrupleless people like Pat Robinson, they prey on ignorance and fear, which doesn't give them much credit in my little book. He would probably do well to put on "Jezus, he knows me" by the aptly named Genesis :twisted:

Just when I think the televangelists have sunk to the lowest point possible, they prove me wrong by getting even sleazier. Remember when Falwell blamed 9/11 on gays and liberals?

Maybe I'm out of line here, but Robertson isn't really Christian. He lives in opulence while dispensing judgement from his ivory tower. He calls for killing, he revels in destruction and the human values of war and injustice. The Christian faith has two very distinct commandments: 1)Love God, and 2) Love one another. As he seems to be against commandment 2) and if we assume that Bible-based Christianity is correct, then you cannot hate mankind and love God.

LOL - Then again, mixing faith and logic is rather explosive.

Look folks, I just want to say that one can be religious and still not ignore or hate the world around them. Since so many Christians (and members of MANY other faiths, mind you) are so full of anger and despair misdirected at the world around them, they inadvertently become enemies of the very creation they supposedly are trying to defend.

The best way to put it is this; science is a great tool for knowledge. Religion is a great path for those who choose to follow it. But the very reason they must be seperate is that while each idea rose for the same reasons (to answer questions about the world), the paths both have taken are very distinct and different means to solve very different issues. I mean, c'mon -would you eat a chicken leg in order solve a differential calculus problem?

Great minds like Richard Dawkins and Ernst Mayr keep the lights of science burning bright while being very respectful of religion. Hopefully, great relgious leaders will follow suit.

Like I said, here's hoping...

John

Fujisawas sake they've started. just found this
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2005/04/08/DDG27BCFLG1.DTL

Unitarian Jihad Name Generator

http://homepage.mac.com/whump/ujname.html
just call me
The Howitzer of Forgiveness

:shock: :shock: :shock:
Whaaaa...? Is this for real? I just couldn't believe that article. Hilarious! More power to them. I just love the concluding paragraph:

"Startling new underground group spreads lack of panic! Citizens declare themselves "relatively unafraid" of threats of undeclared rationality. People can still go to France, terrorist leader says."


Cheers, Sibling Cutlass of Warm Humanitarianism

I guess the column hit a nerve. reasoned discussion for all. or not. ok, some reasoned discussion, maybe.

http://www.livejournal.com/community/unitarian_jihad/

I mean, c'mon -would you eat a chicken leg in order solve a differential calculus problem?

If the problem required me not to pass out from hunger or die of starvation before coming up with the solution, and a chicken leg was the only nutriment available, then you're damned wrong that I wouldn't.

:razz:

This is heartwarmingly funny and a lot less off topic that it seems, says The Claymore of Looking at All Sides of the Question :grin:

Tolerance between accidental ape-creatures? Who cares?! Unitarians seem to have a "To whom it may concern" attitude toward religion and the entire notion of deity. If they choose this, so be it. Certainly, it would do an awful lot toward promoting tolerance and understanding among the hairless apes accidentally dominating this planetoid, but really, who cares?

Cthulhu has no use for any of us, save those of us He reaches in dreams, who organise to reach Him the next time His Holy Tower rises, to awaken Him so that He may devour and destroy across the globe, devouring all in His path. Only then can the cephalopods take their rightful place once again as the supreme, true rulers of this world.

:cthulhu:

This is heartwarmingly funny and a lot less off topic that it seems, says The Claymore of Looking at All Sides of the Question :grin:

I ran across the Jihad while on a forum about Crazy Pat and the Dover elections (sounds like a bad cover band) and thought Ya know, this is what the debate needs--militant moderates to make everyone sit down and have a rational discussiion instead of veiled threats, calls to be quiet, and people taking their balls and going home because they don't like opposing viewpoints.

Show me some evidence of ID and I'll eat me a big heaping plate of crow, but show me the evidence-- don't just say life is too complex and the odds against it are too great for it have happened by chance so it had to have been designed. Longshots happen.

A case in point, a few years back a friend of mine was driving to work, hit an inch deep puddle and skidded off the road into a 5 ft deep ditch and ended up with the front end of her truck under water. She got out and walked across the road to a nearby house to call a tow truck. While she was making the call another car came along, hit the same puddle and slammed into the back of her truck-- pushing it out the other side of the ditch and saving the motor from water damage. The car was totaled, the truck had a small dent on the bumper. Longshots happen.

Evolution kicked me in the teeth about a year and a half ago when my mom came down with methicillin and vancomyicin resistant staph while undergoing chemo and nearly died. If that particular bug was designed then we should have some strong words with the project manager.

Science changes to fit the observed data. No, Darwin didn't get it 100% correct but neither did Newton or Einstein when they worked on gravity. If evidence for ID comes along then biologists will fit it in to evolution and we'll get a new theory including intellegent design. that's what science does.

Ok getting off my soapbox now.

Just watched a harvey birdman episode on adult swim where captain caveman sued to get evolution taught.

I just learned about an interesting part of Deuteronomy:

'No Ammonite may be admitted to the congregation of Yahweh.' --Deuteronomy 23:3

http://ideas.4brad.com/node/303

Nice.:lol:

For your amusement:

http://www.ourmidland.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=15701321&BRD=2289&PAG=461&dept_id=472542&rfi=6

One could address each of the six points in turn, but it's not worth the effort.

Almost as bad as reading a Dan Brown "novel":smile:

http://www.cnn.com/2005/EDUCATION/12/08/creationism.professor.ap/index.html

Almost as bad as reading a Dan Brown "novel":smile:


I must be missing something here...you mean, EB-52's aren't real?

Hey Everyone,

Part inspiration from this forum, part not wanting to write on any of the other topics, I just finished a philosophy essay on the debate of whether creationism should be taught in the science classroom of public schools. Granted, the arguments aren't the strongest but time was limited so I did as best I could.

Importantly, I just wanted to point out that this issue really isn't as obvious as many people might think. I am a evolution/science believer (thats funny :lol: ) but even when I took a more in depth look at this there are some arguments to be made for teaching creationism. The best arguments against (that I'm aware of) are what does teaching creationism really achieve and that the science curriculum already includes very little time on evolution so dividing up that time for creationism isn't such a hot idea. If there was more time though, I think that teaching creationism has some merits, assuming the material is presented properly.

Anyways, I thought I'd post it here to see if anyone would like a pretty generalized look at some arguments against (even though, as stated above, I believe there is some wiggle room). Many many thanks to a friend of mine for editting, idea suggestion, and titles. I just gotta post some of them. My favourits were:

Accidents Do Happen

This Essay Has An Intelligent Design but God Didn't Write It

It Took Me Six Days Just to Create this Essay

Amen to Evolution


Theres another great title, but I used it in the essay and I didn't want to ruin the surprise of those who wish to read it.

Cheers!

I must be missing something here...you mean, EB-52's aren't real?

Urm, that's Dale Brown.... Now there's a real writer :lol:

BTW, nice little piece Jesse, I enjoyed reading that.

What? There are more Brown's ???? Nah, I'll stick with the plasma cannons and EB'52's, thanks.

Part inspiration from this forum, part not wanting to write on any of the other topics, I just finished a philosophy essay on the debate of whether creationism should be taught in the science classroom of public schools. Granted, the arguments aren't the strongest but time was limited so I did as best I could.

Importantly, I just wanted to point out that this issue really isn't as obvious as many people might think. I am a evolution/science believer (thats funny :lol: ) but even when I took a more in depth look at this there are some arguments to be made for teaching creationism. The best arguments against (that I'm aware of) are what does teaching creationism really achieve and that the science curriculum already includes very little time on evolution so dividing up that time for creationism isn't such a hot idea. If there was more time though, I think that teaching creationism has some merits, assuming the material is presented properly.


Pretty good essay. I think it would work better if it was a bit longer, but I assume the length was appropriate for the assignment. On some level I agree that teaching creationism alongside has some aesthetic appeal in terms of "balance" and "learning critical thinking," but realistically, even in the ID form, it's so unscientific that it's an apples to oranges sort of comparison. And as you point out in the essay, given that scientific validity is not a criterion for what is or isn't taught, how do you choose what version of creationism to teach? People seem to be arguing that the only criterion is the loudness of its proponents, which, unfortunately, probably puts creationism ahead of flying-spaghetti-monsterism. Of course, it occurs to me that we do teach naive, wrong theory in a historical context-- it's not considered bad to teach that before Copernicus, people thought the Sun went around the Earth: it's just taught as a historic belief that, when investigated scientifically, turned out to be wrong. In that context, then teaching it seems fine.

Anyway, thanks for sharing your essay with us...

I think it would work better if it was a bit longer, but I assume the length was appropriate for the assignment. On some level I agree that teaching creationism alongside has some aesthetic appeal in terms of "balance" and "learning critical thinking," but realistically, even in the ID form, it's so unscientific that it's an apples to oranges sort of comparison....Of course, it occurs to me that we do teach naive, wrong theory in a historical context-- it's not considered bad to teach that before Copernicus, people thought the Sun went around the Earth: it's just taught as a historic belief that, when investigated scientifically, turned out to be wrong.

Yeah, there were definitely more areas that I could have explored, and wanted to, but time and assignment restraints wouldn't allow it. And along those lines, we always learn in chemistry about the history of the atomic model. None of those theories turned out to be true, but we are still taught them (which drives me crazy). Thanks for the comments.

Cheers!

And along those lines, we always learn in chemistry about the history of the atomic model. None of those theories turned out to be true, but we are still taught them (which drives me crazy). Thanks for the comments.

Cheers!

Don't feel too upset; as the human mind and its associated consciousness is a system within the greater system of the actual (objective?) universe, it is by definition only possible to grasp part of the story. As a result, the best we can ever hope for is to achieve understanding to the best of our abilities of the behaviour of reality: science is only really able to address queries as towards the how.

"Why?" questions may sound like questions, but that's only semantics. A question with no answer is not really a question; it just looks like one (as in: "what's the colour of Wednesday?", never mind the synesthetic's answer to that one :hmm: ).

The essence of a model, be it of evolution or the atomic structure, is that it models the behaviour of reality as we subjectively experience it through either our senses or sensors we derived to expand the latter's functional abilities. Einstein may have found that gravitational pull can be adequately described by assuming the curvature of spacetime by mass, but he never worried about why gravity exists: it simply is. I also guess Einstein was a closet ID proponent:grin:

I had a professor once who told us this simple mantra:

"All models are false. Some models are useful."

Today's scientific knowledge is not the end-all be-all. The "wrong" models of the atom you were taught about are--in the great scheme of things--not all that less correct on an absolute scale than today's model. Yesterday's models are just less useful. In 50 years today's models probably won't be useful for the things we try to do.

I believe this is true whether we're talking about the atomic model, the golgi aparatus or physical processes inside the Earth.

Dan

I dont see how ID can be taught in a scientific context - unless it is for the purpose of showing "bad science" in action - which is exactly what we are taught here. Both in high school and at Uni, we were shown a comparison between good science - ie hypothesis testing, evidence, references ect, and bad science - ID.

I think that ID is there for one thing - and one thing only - to bring religion back into the fray.
I dont see many (if any) secular proponents to teaching ID, and the argument that it creates a balance sends the wrong message.

The only reason its still under focus is because the very powerful Christian base in America is funding it and promoting the idea.

If I came up with a wacky idea , got enough of my friends to support me and put pressure on everyone to teach it, it doesnt mean it should be taught in a science classroom.

I think many in the scientific community are too scared to get the negative PR (from the rightwing religious) that is associated with anti ID statements, this in my veiw is babying them.


ID / Creationism = scientific bollocks.

Science needs to grow some teeth, perhaps remove religion from being taught in churches - see, it isnt too nice being invaded by another institution. :grin:


Interersting point about scientific models - I remember being annoyed about the atomic model - but I think it's used as a stepping stone - you cant just chuck people straight into the deep end. Although in retrospect the information was taught as truth, we werent told that this was watered down science - which should have been apparant.

I do agree with you that under its current presentation it is being taught simply to try and convert students or bring religion back into a place where it doesn't belong. However, I'm not saying (I don't think anyone on this forum is) that ID/creationism is science. I'm not saying it should be taught as science. What I do think is that if there was enough time in the school curriculum (which there isn't) than there are some secular points to be made for teaching creationism. (I certainly didn't think so when I set out to write this essay, but I've been proved wrong before and it'll happen again.) You present both theories to the students, show how each one has evolved (:lol:), how each one is supported, and you end up teaching the students how to looks at things objectively, develop their reasoning skills, and show them how to tell real science apart from junk science. Practically speaking, this will not happen anytime soon.

Cheers!

Well, I have been formally briefed in the (science) classroom on the main ideas behind ID/creationism - as you say its probably one of the best examples of bad science, and this is exactly why I was taught it.

I dont think that's quite the spin the pro ID people are looking for. :grin:


Luckily the NZ system is actually secular!!! , I can see teaching ID as an example of bad science probably wouldnt go down too well in the States!!

On further consideration, mostly prompted by the atomic models comments, I think my earlier comment about "maybe ID/Creationism could be taught as an outdated model" was wrong. The example of various atomic theories (I personally like the plum pudding model!) being a stepping stone to understanding is an excellent one-- and in some sense it applies to many of the theories still mentioned-- the terracentric view of the solar system and even the flat earth model are actually useful on some level as approximations. ID/Creationism doesn't actually provide a useful model at all-- they just declare an unusable and untestable fact that must be accepted on faith. At least in the flat earth model, it's based on some observation that when you look around, the earth looks pretty much flat-- it's actually arguable that it takes a great deal of imagination and faith to imagine the curvature of the earth, particularly from the days when there weren't satellite pictures of the earth and globes and whatnot as learning tools. There is a good deal less evidence for creationism or ID... the notion of design is a subjective interpretation more than even an observation of how things obectively appear, as opposed to, say, the mathematically objective fact that any given point on the surface of a sphere like the earth is "locally flat" to a pretty good approximation.

Yeah, model wise it definitely does not stack up. And again, I don't really mean it to be taught in the science class as much as maybe a philosophy class, history, or religions class, where they can take the time to explain how it was originally used, that we could only imagine what was really going on, and then show how now-a-days it doesn't stand up so well scientifically.

Three cheers for secular New Zealand! (not to mention that it doesn't just rocks anyways)

Cheers!

I had a professor once who told us this simple mantra:

"All models are false. Some models are useful."

Personally, i think supermodels are useful.... :roll:

Three cheers for secular New Zealand! (not to mention that it doesn't just rocks anyways)

Its all action down here, Priministerial limosines unlawfully speeding to rugby matches, pot-smoking Members of Parliment and 1/3 of the governments total debt held in student loans!!

Everyone should come on down, :beer: I'll throw a party with the money I'm gonna save on the new (and utterly ridiculous) interest free student loan. Not good news for the tax payer - but great for me!!!

Gotta love it:lol:



It is unfortunate that the ID thing actually seems to be gaining ground, last I heard a couple of places had started teaching it. Do you guys still get those stickers in the front of bio books saying that "the theory of evolution is a theory, and should be critically examined?"
There is now a push for the same in physics books - with that intellegent gravity thing rearing its ugly head again.

Thankfully the books are not available for teaching here until those small offending stickers are removed :grin:

The major problem occurs in the southern states, for obvious reasons. And yes, I do believe that some of those states still produce textbooks with stickers inside them. Absolutely ridiculous!! What I really really can't believe, though, is that you say the intelligent gravity thing is gaining momentum?!?!?! Soooooo happy to be a Canadian, by-and-large its still pretty secular up here. We just don't care about too much, I mean whats the use getting worked up over something...:grin:

Cheers!

We just don't care about too much, I mean whats the use getting worked up over something...:grin:

Yup--just sit back, crack a beer, and watch the US hand over the 21st century to the rest of the world on a (silicon?) platter. Most of the spoils will probably go to Asia, but I hope :canada: can manage to catch more than its fair share of crumbs.

Don't even get me started. Hey, I have an idea: let's ban stem cell research...after all, it works, and makes sense. Now let's start teaching one religion in all of our schools.
Now let's have a war.

after all, we have to protect our unborn fetuses from radical religious fanatics by blowing up schools somewhere else, right?

Stop me if you've heard this one before:

Okay, so this biology professor in Kansas gets his butt kicked by two men offended by his recent e-mails where he derided 'intelligent' design. He now claims that he was forced to resign his professorship.

So sayeth CNN.com:
A recent e-mail from [Dr. Paul] Mirecki to members of a student organization referred to religious conservatives as "fundies" and said a course describing intelligent design as mythology would be a "nice slap in their big fat face." Mirecki apologized for those comments.

The actual e-mail was worded as so:

“Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2005
Subject: I.D. & Creationism class to be taught at KU this spring!
To my fellow damned,
Its true, the fundies have been wanting to get I.D. and creationism into the Kansas public schools, so I thought “why don’t I do it?”
I will teach the class, with several other lefty KU professors in the sciences and humanities. Class is:
REL 602 Special Topics in Religion: Intelligent Design, Creationisms and other Religious Mythologies.
Tuesdays 7:00-9:30pm. Smith Hall room 100. Open to undergrads and grads.
Enrollment limited to about 120. 3 credit hours.
The fundies want it all taught in a science class, but this will be a nice slap in their big fat face by teaching it as a religious studies class under the category “mythology”. I expect it will draw much media attention. The university public relations office will have a press release on it in a few weeks, I also have contacts at several regional newspapers.
Of course, I won’t actually be teaching I.D. and creationisms, but rather I’ll be teaching ABOUT I.D. and creationisms as modern mythologies, indicating that these ideas have no place in a public school science class, but can certainly be analyzed in humanities classes for their function in society. Basic approach is my usual: anthropology with a focus on religious thought and behavior.
Any ideas for textbooks, guest lecturers and panels would be appreciated.
So far, six faculty have eagerly signed up to lecture. I can probably pull Chancellor Hemenway into this also, especially in the light of his public comments supporting evolution.
Doing my part to p*ss of the religious right,
Evil Dr. P.“

Puerile and a bit childish? Of course. But not a beat-worthy offense. Nor was it an offense worthy of being fired. The thing that troubles me is that no one - not the school trying to save its own butt by turning on one of their own, not the professor in question, nor the ‘men’ who attacked him – no one has stopped to ask themselves a simple question: “Why?”

What is the point? The professor decided to take the low ground, and be insulting and childish. Web sites are already taking sides in this case and are trying to point out that creation-science websites are often full of lies, and scathing, vitriolic hatred of any who oppose their ideas. So… two wrongs now make a right?

The professor needs to take some responsibility. He used pointed, loaded language in an e-mail that only the truly stupid could have ever believed would be non-public. Being an educated man of science, he could have figured out a better way to open debate. He could have made a strong, scientific case for his opposition to ID and creation science. Could have, should have, would have. Whatever.

I have to admit that I tend to be hard on scientists and educators when it comes to issues of ethics. People who are leaders in their fields need to lead by example, and need to be the better person when dealing with those who oppose them. I am seriously disappointed with this professor. In an age where some religious leaders are too powerless to promote good and others just promote pure evil, we need genuine good leaders of the educational elite to act as role-models. Way to go for science! With friends like these you don’t need enemas.

(Just trying to see if you’re paying attention!).

And the school? Well, in typical Kansas “change-the-rules-as-you-go” fashion, they stabbed this guy in the back, rather than help him out and open dialogue between groups. Oh, and they cancelled the ID and creationism as mythology class too. To them I say - Bravo, folks. I’m disappointed in you as well for the reasons described in the above paragraphs. Grow a backbone. They’ve been around since the Cambrian. Oh, and that was a BIT longer than 6000 years ago.

And to the men who beat the professor? Wow! Boy, are YOU religious! If you believe in a devil, I’m sure he’s thanking you for doing his work. Way to be leaders! Way to set religion back 1000 years! I’m glad that the spirit of the 60’s is alive and well… Too bad it’s the 1860’s.

Am I wrong in just wanting a little more civility in the world?

Tired and annoyed, and drinking a sake toddy...

John

Make that a dai ginjo, I'll mirror the event over here in the cold wet Netherlands.

Hmmm, calls for some accompaniment.

No ika, just oh toro, oh no, endangered species,..., urrrr.... cod? No No No!!! Farm raised salmon? Bluech!!! Besides, can't have all that antimicrobial resistance ocurring... OK, I'll settle for a vegetable tempura, organically grown of course...

Whats the deal with sending emails like this? Can they fire people for using the word "fundies" in private emails?

Granted this isn't a very professional email, (far from it) :grin: , but what was he actually "fired" for? I suppose "unprofessionalism" would be the best call, however it still wouldnt require such harsh action.

When they say forced to resign, it would have been interesting to see what would have happened if he'd refused to go.

Its a very odd situation -

With friends like these you don’t need enemas.
:grin: Now there's a sentence!! :grin:

For those in need of some insightful and more balanced rebuttal:

http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/dennett05/dennett05_index.html

http://mikethemadbiologist.blogspot.com/2005/02/id-hits-times-op-ed.html

Granted, mad Mike may at first glance not appear to be devoid of polemics, but he stakes some fair claims.

Nice links, ob. They are well-written and - what do you know? - very civil and respectful. Now why can't they make the news? That's what bothers me about our society in general - the squeaky wheel gets the grease instead of upgrading the system. *sigh*

I appreciate the insight.

John

OK, I'll settle for a vegetable tempura, organically grown of course...

Try tempura shiitake mushrooms. I can send you a recipe if you like.

I liked that first article, nice find OB.

What? Insightful and respectful ???? What?
We are having pork chops (dry rub, of course) and a selection of cheeses tonight (gotta love that smoked gouda stuff) with a nice cheap bottle of Liebfraumilch (4.99? Sold!)

How's the hangover clearing? You usually spend at least that amount on pain killers the following day, so it's only a steal at 4,99 at first glance :hmm:

I suggest strong black and wholesome jamaica blue mountain :coffee:

Moving off topic here, it seems...

I'll go trawl the web then, shall I?

UMD's Steve Salzberg in the 2 Nov Philly Inquirer:

"Scientists in my lab and others can tell you that developing a vaccine for the flu absolutely requires that we understand its evolution. We can also tell you that the flu doesn't "care" if we believe in evolution. It will keep evolving anyway, and it will kill us if we ignore it"

And, perhaps less poignantly, but as applicable:

"Another recent poll revealed that less than half of the U.S. population knows that the Earth revolves around the sun. Does this mean we should teach that the sun revolves around the Earth? What these polls do highlight, sadly, is the failure of science education."

PS:

Try tempura shiitake mushrooms. I can send you a recipe if you like.

Please do :grin:

http://today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=scienceNews&storyID=2005-12-20T171314Z_01_EIC059334_RTRUKOC_0_US-LIFE-EVOLUTION.xml

I am mildly amused that they used a blue-footed boobie to illustrate this story...

Of course, the religious right seems to have moved on to other areas-- although with this one, you don't need a science background to understand the issues:

http://today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=topNews&storyID=2005-12-18T171053Z_01_MOL849993_RTRUKOC_0_US-HOLIDAYS-AMERICA.xml&archived=False

lol... I come from an area where "hanging of the greens" would have a WHOLE 'nother meaning :wink:.

Not that I 'partoke' of the doobage, mind you.

That's 'zombie' for all you Aussies. I have NO idea what they call it in Nuzi, but I know that in Humboldt County they call it... Hmm... Oh! 'Economic Saviour'. Kinda sad, really.

lol... I come from an area where "hanging of the greens" would have a WHOLE 'nother meaning :wink:.

Not that I 'partoke' of the doobage, mind you.

That's 'zombie' for all you Aussies. I have NO idea what they call it in Nuzi, but I know that in Humboldt County they call it... Hmm... Oh! 'Economic Saviour'. Kinda sad, really.
we call it fish here in MS.

I think it is way cool that the judge in the dover case was appointed by dubya.

Fanning the flames are conservative talk show personalities bemoaning the secularization of Christmas. Fox News anchor John Gibson chimed in with a book "The War on Christmas: How the Liberal Plot to Ban the Sacred Christian Holiday is Worse than You Thought.

We get Fox news as a filler from 1am - 5am, and I have watched it a few times. They dont even try to hide how pro republican they are :grin: . It's pretty funny - especially with all the terrorist reports and Iraq stuff, - it makes up half the programming.

OMG - just have to say I saw "Martha" for the first time, somehow it managed to get put on daytime tv. Hahaa, its like housewife brainwashing - the short part I saw was about naming her new cat.

As for me I'll be holding out for "Five finger discount shopping with Martha", now there's a show!


I have NO idea what they call it in Nuzi Do you mean NZ? Well, there are some pretty funny ones - electric puha (puha is a type of water cress) would have to be my favourite. :grin:

As for me I'll be holding out for "Five finger discount shopping with Martha", now there's a show! :grin:
shoplifting - It's a good thing........:razz:

I like Martha, actually. Good lawn furniture. God knows there's always a use for that. A friend of mine procurred a great outdoor bar for his tiki hut in the back yard via Ms. Stewart. One thing you can say about the lady is that she only puts her name on quality products, and isn't that the important thing if you're a consumer?

And Fujisake - never inhaled? Not once? Remember, anything you did under age 23 doesn't actually count in California - I believe the "youthful indescrection" cutoff is 25 or something...

I wonder if Martha knows that her indoor wardrobe things are widely used as grow rooms for magic mushrooms? - I thought that was pretty funny. :grin:

Phew!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4547734.stm

I'm particulary amazed by this comment:

"That's a terribly slippery slope if we're going to say in a democracy, in a free country, that people who are motivated by religion are excluded from the public script." :mad:

Its funny that he cant see that forcing his beliefs on someone in the public system isnt a "free" or "democratic" way of doing things.

It's crazy how long its taken for such a ruling to happen.
I just dont understand some things - like the Oath - "One nation under God" - how can that not be religious? (and therefore unconstitutional).

I cant see how even extreme rightwingers can pretend that a sentence with "god" in it isnt religious. But it's still there. And on coins.

It is so bizzarre. :lol: , it does however make for some interesting threads. :sly:

Hey, as long as he gets to spy on people whenever he wants, he's happy.

a christian republican judge appointed by bush says ID is religion not science. And he found that the board lied under oath. this is the best news in weeks

*sigh* They lied.

I can't believe it. It just boils my noodle to think that they LIED. Didn't they think, for one NANOSECOND, that LYING MIGHT BE A BIT AGAINST THEIR RELIGION?

Gee whiz.

*sigh* They lied.

I can't believe it. It just boils my noodle to think that they LIED. Didn't they think, for one NANOSECOND, that LYING MIGHT BE A BIT AGAINST THEIR RELIGION?

Gee whiz.


That's what's most amusing. Its easy to rationalize lying to the state patrol wabout how fast you were going, yet raising your right hand and swearing your oath to your god...jeese, that's getting pretty close to "bearing false witness"

Dan

I guess the commandmants don't apply to them. And the christians claim they are persecuted by the evil humanists.

Surprised to see this familiar news clipping on hali pop up "on the other side":

http://www.trueauthority.com/explorer/explorer_april2002.htm

Great pic :wink:

Scroll further down to be introduced to a 4 meter insect, must 've been watching too much Kong, I guess :grin:

:shock: Wow, I knew gladiators were predators but 4 meters, that's one big bug. makes you wonder why it took so long to discover them. I mean if you got these giant bugs taking down natives somebody should have noticed. :razz:

a creationist cryptozoology site - when 1 pseudoscience is not enough.