Hi all. Tintenfisch and I have just returned from a talk we gave on giant squid, giant octopus and other mysterious denizens of the deep, up country a bit. Whilst at the venue someone from the NZ Department of Conservation gave us a chilli bin of squid beaks (at least a thousand beaks) recently extracted (during autopsy) from the stomach of a stranded sperm whale (of length 13m, or ~ 40 feet). Therein were several (2 at least) giant squid beaks, and at least 4 (we haven't really looked at them in detail yet to give precise counts, and they still smell seriously evil and are covered in parasitic worms) of those belonging to Mesonychoteuthis hamiltoni. Those of Mesonychoteuthis just leave those of Architeuthis for dead in the seriously evil stakes - they're considerably larger and CONSIDERABLY THICKER - almost capable of doing the 'cutting through cable' trick that you'll sometimes read about (with respect to Architeuthis).

In the months to come we'll try and describe a few of these beaks online for you (as a small project), as we try and reconstruct what species this whale had been eating, and where it had been eating them; it is really quite interesting stuff!! We also have the stomach contents of three pygmy sperm whales (Kogia) to examine, so the comparison might be of interest to people here.

Mesonychoteuthis is an Antarctic squid species (none is known from New Zealand waters, or at least none is represented in collections from NZ waters), so the sperm whale, stranding in subtropical waters, was likely feeding quite a bit south of New Zealand. I don't know the cause of death of the sperm whale, whether sick or disoriented, but will let you know as soon we find out.
Steve & Tintenfisch

You said you would try to find out where the whale was eating the squid, I was just wondering, how can you tell location from what you have? It sounds like it is an interesting process, and I just wanted to know what it involved.
Thanks!!!
Melissa

I'll take a crack at this question - don't mind me infringing on your forum, Steve. ;)

We can figure out which species of squid are normally/have previously been found locally (in NZ waters) - whether throughout their lifetimes or transitorily, during migration - by going through the squid collections in museums here. The upper limits of their size ranges can also be conjectured from the preserved specimens' sizes at various states of maturity; however, specimens recovered from whale stomachs often represent larger animals than those found in the collections, and sometimes come from species for which we have very little comparative material because they are quite rare within the collections. By checking the capture details on preserved specimens, we can then extrapolate where (geographic and depth) and when (time of year) the whale was likely to have eaten a particular size/species of squid.

If we keep a continuous record of all specimens captured in NZ waters, we get a pretty good comprehensive idea of which species are found here, again whether only during certain times of year or more or less always. So when stomachs yield beaks from species not previously recorded locally (e.g. Mesonychoteuthis), even if the whale beached here in NZ, we can be fairly sure (because the museum collections are extensive) that the squid in question was consumed somewhere outside local NZ waters. The literature then tells us where the squid is generally found or where specimens have been previously recorded, and we deduce that the whale has probably been feeding in that general area. In this instance, Mesonychoteuthis hamiltoni is an Antarctic species, so therefore we believe the whale to have been foraging in Antarctic waters - a theory supported by the presence of beaks from other Antarctic squid species in the same stomach. The whale therefore most likely stranded while on a migratory path between the Antarctic and central-eastern NZ.

It is also possible that Mesonychoteuthis does occur locally and has simply never been recorded - in fact, some very surprising squid have turned up here recently - but until we have an actual specimen recorded here independent of a migratory host, we have to exclude it from the known NZ fauna.

Does that help?

I'm impressed :mrgreen:

For those who might not know, you can often identify a prey item (in this case squid) based on the shape of the beak. Differences in beak shapes, characters, and character states can be subtle, but there is a growing body of literature on the subject to help identify them.

Identifying the natural diet of toothed whale species (by examining the squid diet from stomach contents of stranded dead specimens) has an applied application (in conservation). This is particularly true of rehabilitating stranded whales (the likes of the pygmy sperm whale, such as they do at Mote Marine Laboratory, down Sarasota, Florida). By knowing what squid species are naturally consumed by a whale you can then procure the most appropriate diet for them for rehabilitation. Pygmy sperm whales experience all manner of gastric problems trying to digest squid that are commercially available in the US (and thus available to feed them), so if we can provide the appropriate diet of deep-sea ammoniacal squid (the likes of Histioteuthis, Moroteuthis and Architeuthis) to supplement its diet then rehabilitation will likely be more successful. These squid are normally discarded as trawl bycatch as they have no current commercial value (their ammoniacal tissues render them 'unsuitable' or 'unpalatable' as far as we humans are concerned).

I don't know if anyone has successfully rehabilitated a sperm whale yet, but one day this will be achieved (you'd need an awfully big tank or compound).
O

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm, I could think of nothing better to do on a wet and windy Sunday than be in at work looking at whale stomach contents.

The two Architeuthis were both male at mantle lengths of ~ 1.1m; I've seen many a mature male at this size, with weights ~ 55-75kg. Not exactly huge, but the male only grows to ~ 1.5m ML.

There are at least eight considerably larger beaks attributable to Mesonychoteuthis hamiltoni; seems like the whale had been dining well whilst further south. The beaks look old and quite blackened (as if they've been burnt in a camp fire).

The incidence of Architeuthis beaks in the stomach contents is particularly interesting (both upper and lower beaks of the two being present), as both sets are relatively fresh (although no soft tissues remain). Architeuthis almost certainly migrates into New Zealand waters about this time of the year (but where from is a great mystery), so I wouldn't be too surprised if these two beaks belonged to animals consumed in our waters.

Time to make a prediction: you'll probably start hearing reports (maybe headlines if people are not bored with the squid already, and nothing else is happening in the news) of Architeuthis washing ashore or being caught in fishing nets in about 8 days (15 December) through to Feb (at least).

There are many many many other beaks to identify yet - the story will be really quite interesting.
O

Hi Steve,
This tale of stomach contents and squid beaks is fascinating! Please continue to tell us what you are finding as the story unfolds.

Nancy

There are at least eight considerably larger beaks attributable to Mesonychoteuthis hamiltoni; seems like the whale had been dining well whilst further south. The beaks look old and quite blackened (as if they've been burnt in a camp fire).
Any thoughts as to why these beaks look the way they do? Seems they're remarkable to you, when compared to the others, yes?

Very cool stuff here you two -- thanks!

Tintenfisch will not be happy with me ... coz I'm having fun ... and she's not here to participate.

Not sure Tony; may be quite old and digested/affected by the whales digestive juices, or they may be naturally blackened like this - I don't have any experience with Mesonychoteuthis beaks when fresh (the adult is a very rare animal in collections, although is supposed to be quite common down there in the Antarctic). All I can tell you is I wouldn't want to be in the water with this thing .... live or dead!

Well, the latest newsworthy item is a beak from our good old friend 'the giant gelatinous octopus' Haliphron atlanticus. Newsworthy because the sperm whale had obviously been feeding in the Antarctic; Haliphron has only recently been recorded from the South Pacific and is considered to be a tropical to subtropical-dwelling species. So where did this beak come from? The Antarctic, Subantarctic or Subtropical New Zealand? Puzzles! The beak is well worn and looks quite old (so, ?not-so-recently eaten).

There's a beak or two (or thousand) amongst that lot that has me scratching my head. Think I'll call it a day there - best go scrub up.
O

Well, the latest newsworthy item is a beak from our good old friend 'the giant gelatinous octopus' Haliphron atlanticus....
Do you find it interesting that this sperm whale has an octopus (Haliphron atlanticus) in its belly along with all those squid? I've never had much trouble envisioning a whale swooping down into a mass of squid for a hearty meal. But as far as we know, aren't octopus species generally solitary animals?

I guess you just say "a" Haliphron beak, not a bunch. So perhaps he just picked him off, ay? I wonder what other things this sperm whale ate, besides octopus and squid? What does a sperm whale's diet typically consist of? I mean, do they just eat any living thing within their sights, or do they scope out specific prey? I wonder what the likelihood is of one whale dining on such a variety of ceph species, especially the (seemingly?) solitary ones. Or perhaps there are way more of these animals in the ocean than my feeble mind imagines.

Here are some links to the beasties being discussed:

Mesonychoteuthis hamiltoni (http://tolweb.org/tree/eukaryotes/animals/mollusca/cephalopoda/coleoidea/decapodiformes/cranchiidae/mesonychoteuthis/mesonychoteuthis.html) (note the distribution map)

and

Haliphron atlanticus (http://www.mnh.si.edu/cephs/young92/cephs6.html) (note the in-action video)

Hi all! This is fascinating! Wonder how he caught the octopus? Another question, are these beaks digestible??

:) Carol

This is all fascinating! I had the dubious pleasure of seeing a Mesonychoteuthis beak myself a couple of months ago at the Natural History Museum in London. It was almost jet black and looked much more robust and powerful than the beak of Architeuthis.

My question is, are there any squid species that are known purely from beak specimens retrieved from Sperm whale stomachs? That is to say, are beaks occasionally found that cannot be classified and may represent undescribed species?

Absolutely Phil ... there are a few unknowns out there still!

Yes Carol, the beaks probably do digest (certainly the delicate, transparent beak margins have already digested on most of them); otherwise they supposedly are 'purged' from the system, either by vomiting or as # 2's. Having said that, however, if they were 'purged' from the system on a regular basis (supposedly very fast) then what were those Mesonychoteuthis beaks doing in there? I cannot see the whale moving at supersonic speed, from the Antarctic to central-eastern New Zealand in the space of a day or so. Obviously some beaks linger, but just how long they linger is a question I've asked myself repeatedly, and have no answer for. Quite a few Antarctic squid have been recorded from or proximal to New Zealand waters on grounds of beaks identified from stomach contents or regurgitations of these long-distance foraging marine predators (sperm whales and albatross); I don't believe a number of squid so reported from New Zealand occur anywhere near here; two of them in particular, Mesonychoteuthis hamiltoni and Kondakovia longimana (two Antarctic giants), and a third Psychroteuthis glacialis (quite a bit smaller) - all Antarctic dwellers (and there are more that have been reported from NZ waters but are not represented in collections by in situ captured specimens).

O

In response to Tony's question(s) I've had to go to my books (I am no sperm whale biologist). I'll digress a bit (some of this might sound a tad gory), because some of what I've tracked down is rather interesting. I'm quoting Clarke, M.R. 1980: Cephalopoda in the diet of sperm whales of the Southern Hemisphere and their bearing on sperm whale biology. Discovery Reports, 37: 1-324.

Re the diet of sperm whales, well, it is almost exclusively squid (and octopus, like Haliphron). Teleosts (fish) and elasmobranchs (sharks, rays etc.), and crustaceans generally account for a very small part of the whales diet. Not all of these large deep-sea squid that the whale eats are likely to form shoals; many may be solitary my nature (but still far more common than net captures would lead us to believe).

A little bit about the sperm whale anatomy, based on a male of 50 feet length, might be of interest to you (Clarke 1980: 49):
"The complete tract measured 215m from the opening of the oesophagus to the anus. The oesophagus (unstretched diameter 28cm and estimated at 2.2m in length) opens into the first almost round stomach (2m outside diameter). The lining of the tongue, oesophagus and first stomach is extremely tough, white in colour and has a network of furrows. To one side there is an opening (25cm diameter) into the second stomach (120cm internal length) which has a smooth soft lining anteriorly becoming longitudinally furrowed in the posterior half. Just in front of the furrowed region an opening (12 x 6cm) connects the second stomach with the narrow tubular third stomach (120cm internal length). This then opens into an expansion of the duodenum by a constricted opening with a strong sphincter. This duodenal ampulla (70cm across) opens into the small intestine which gradually broadens into the large intestine (at a position 180cm from the duodenal ampulla). The walls of the small intestine (13-19cm circumference) and large intestine (27cm circumference) have thin transverse folds (mean depth 1-1.8cm) projecting into the lumen. At a position 24m from the small intestine the large intestine broadens suddenly to form the rectum (1m in circumference and about 4m long).

The way in which the sperm whales use their mouth must be a matter of speculation but the extreme narrowness of the jaw would cause little drag if it were held open during rapid swimming or 'snapping' at cephalopods. The teeth must be used only for holding the prey because fish and squids in the stomach are often nearly undamaged. Presumably squids caught between the front of the jaws at speed are transferred to the back by forward motion of the whale because the tongue lies far back and the lips are not long enough to close the sides of the mouth so that suction generated by swallowing cannot influence food at the front of the mouth. The highly elastic tongue must aid swallowing. The tough lining of the mouth, oesophagus and first stomach is ample protection against the hooks and beaks of a struggling squid. The food is presumably retained in the first stomach until its struggles are over and then it is passed into the second stomach where digestive juices are poured upon it. Break-up of the tissues is greatly facilitated by the large numbers of nematodes (various species of Anisakis) which force their way into all the softer tissues. Mixed with the flesh there are often large numbers of cephalopod beaks and there is little doubt that these also have a macerating effect on the freshly ingested food."

..........
Well, I can't quite reconcile the individual lengths of some of the alimentary structures with the total length of 215m for the digestive tract myself, but that aside, it is an interesting account of the anatomy and possible feeding behaviour of the squid. Thought it might be of interest. In case you didn't know, only the lower jaw of the sperm whale has teeth. I've heard also that the whale might skim along the sea floor with its' jaws open, shovelling up/snapping up squid and octopus this way.
...........
With regard to how long the beaks remain in the stomach (Clarke 1980: 52, 53):
'If the average whale eats 10 meals a day it would consume 330 squids a day and the average number of beaks in the stomach [1300] would represent 4 days food. This figure, for both sexes combined, is not very different from a direct calculation of the average rate at which beaks are accumulated in whale's stomachs estimated from their food requirements [between 700-800 squids per day for the average female and 300-400 for the average male]. Dividing these figures into the average number of lower beaks recovered from sperm whale stomachs shows the average female retains the beaks for 2.1-2.5 days and the average male for 1.2-1.6 days' [slightly paraphrased].

So it doesn't sound like squid beaks are retained in the stomach for very long at all. Of course that still doesn't explain the incidence of Mesonychoteuthis beaks in the NZ-stranded sperm whale .... the whale would need to have travelled at near-supersonic speed to reach NZ from the Antarctic in such a short period of time. These are, however, 'averages'.

Hope that answers some of your questions. Haliphron (the octopus) is often recorded in the stomachs of sperm whales, but it is a large animal. Moreover, I had one beak referable to this species only, amongst the thousand plus other squid beaks, so it would appear to be a bit of a loner.
Cheers
O

...struggling...not...to crack joke.... about... strong sphincter!!! :lol:

Mixed with the flesh there are often large numbers of cephalopod beaks and there is little doubt that these also have a macerating effect on the freshly ingested food...
How's that for poetic justice?

That is a staggering amount of squid being eaten by sperm whales. Not too surprising considering their size, but still. When I visited Maui in 1992 I picked up a book on humpback whales which had similarly impressive figures on the amount of food they eat.. I can't locate the book, but I don't believe they eat squid. I do recall that their method of catching food is to swim under a school, and then produce billions of tiny bubbles which shoot upward and serve to stun the school. Then the humpback shoots upward to grab its meal. Reading about the behavior of the humpback was one of the things that got me seriously interested in sea life, and led to the creation of this site! For example, I read about how it is unknown (at least in 1992 it was unknown) why the humpback breaches, but it was observed that their eyes are often open during breaching, so it is speculated that they probably do it just to catch a glimpse of the "outside" world. How interesting!

BUT... I digress. :talker: Back to the amount of squid being devoured here -- I'm not sure how many sperm whales it is estimated there are in the world, but with that figure one could easily calculate the number of squid being eaten on a daily basis, by sperm whales alone (which I would have to imagine is their #1 predator). Which then makes me marvel at the amount of reproduction that must be going on amongst squid!

This is great stuff Steve. Only on the Internet can I sit in landlocked Pennsylvania and converse with a marine biologist in scrubs about his first-hand accounts in dealing with things plucked from our oceans. Thanks!

This is exciting stuff Steve! Although, rather you than me sorting those beaks, I had enough fun :!: with the ones from my squid stomach samples!!

Just a comment, dredging back to my physical oceanography classes, isn't there water of Antarctic origins off the coast of NZ? I'm pretty sure that at least off the east coast of the south island there is Antarctic Intermediate Water (for those who are not familiar with these terms that's kinda like midwater of antarctic origins and it is distinctly different to the other water in this area-----any oceanographers feel free to jump in here, my memory may be a tad hazy!). I guess my point is this; is it not possible that these antarctic species like Mesonychotuethis may occasionally migrate up with this water and be present in NZ waters? Something like a sperm whale is far better equiped to take a "sample" than we are! If this is the case it may in part explain the time thing, the whale hadn't been feeding in the antarctic but in southern NZ???? Some speculation anyway!!

J

Very true Jean. More than anything I'd like these beasts to occur in NZ waters ... and am constantly on the search for them. The Tangaroa (the NIWA research vessel) is currently down there right now, trawling to ~ 1100m at the very bottom of NZ; they have collected some rather interesting squid so far (including fresh-fixed fully mature Todarodes and Nototodarus spp. for Kerry's thesis - if you could relay that to her I'd appreciate it - we did not have any in the collections until now).

Water masses/eddies/gyres are strange strange things. Way down 55°S last year they pulled up a specimen of the 'strictly' tropical to subtropical diamond back squid (Thysanoteuthis rhombus) at a depth of 127m and temp 15-16°C, so even this far south we still encounter species typical of equatorial regions, and very warm waters (although this specimen is so far outside of its previously recognised distribution that I wouldn't know where to look for a possible water mass/eddy/gyre origin).

I still don't have a juvenile Mesonychoteuthis in the collections from our EEZ yet - the minute one of those babies turns up you'll hear me holler for joy. Having said that, though, it is not necessary for the entire life cycle of a species to occur in any given area (cases in point Architeuthis dux and Haliphron atlanticus), so it is possible (but unlikely) that down there ~ 1000+m, 55°S, that the colossal Mesonychoteuthis rules the domain.

The distribution spots on Tony's earlier link are almost exclusively shallow-water dwelling juveniles; the adult is extremely rare!
Cheers
O

Hiya,

I'll let Kerry know that, she'll be rapt! How mature are we talking about with the Nototodarus? This is just curiousity on my part as I got very few mature animals in my samples (of course they were being jigged, inshore and in very shallow water!) I had a few stage 5 animals but most were stage 2!

Any likely to be spent? A couple of my stage 5 females were possibly spent as the histological sections of the ovaries showed no eggs or even early or late stages and the ovarian tissue was very degenerate (some damage was due to freezing of course) The digestive gland was flaccid and the rest of the tissue (eg mantle) was soft not "rubbery" like the less mature individuals. I didn't find any males like that. Having said that these possibly spent animals were not in the dreadful condition of a spent Moroteuthis This was good and bad!! Good cos I didn't have to dissect it but on the other hand there is no mistaking a spent individual in Moroteuthis :D

Cheers

J

The ship returns on the 23rd December Jean; I think Kerry is here 15-21 December, so she'll miss them herself. I'll get them dispatched to you pronto at any rate (I think 4 large fresh-fixed Nototodarus; the rest have been frozen [didn't send enough buckets on the trip :( ]; I have no idea of size [as in ML] or sex at this stage). Were you not finishing up......very soon like, like before Christmas ...???? Just received some nice ommastrephids from Tonga too ... though don't ask me what genus at this point in time; they 'flew' onto the deck of the ship one night (like I'd heard of flying onychoteuthids before, but ommastrephids?).

I actually had a specific request in for fresh-fixed spent/fully mature Moroteuthis ingens; not sure if I have a spent individual fixed, but certainly did get some mature ones (and 2 x M. robsoni too). They really go grotty when they're spent (ingens; I've never seen a spent robsoni), but whatever specimens I have seen have all been frozen first ... and I think that makes them doubly grotty - it'd be nice to see if they had a cranchiid type appearance when fresh-fixed (superficial similarity only).
Toodles
O

I've just received a preliminary autopsy report for the sperm whale.

It had become stranded early (7am) 28 November 2002 on the southern side of Mahia Peninsula, NZ; by 5.45pm the animal had beached itself, and sadly had died.

It was a fully mature male, 13m in length, of an an estimated weight 30 tonnes. The cause of death really isn't known, although it is presumed the animal drowned when it became stuck on its side in the surf. Judging from the number of scars on its head and wear on the teeth it was an old animal, yet it appeared in good health and had few parasites and a good blubber layer.

Steve

Hi All!

I had a question, but it was answered in the autopsy. I noticed the whale beached in the morning and died in the evening of drowning. Sad it could not be helped. I'm assuming because of the weight there was nothing anyone could do?

This whole conversation is sooo amazing to me! I really am enjoying all your comments.

Carol

Hi Steve,

thanks for the info, I'll bug Kerry to see the beasts!! As regards my thesis, well you know what they say about the best laid plans!! The stats have turned seriously nasty and the dept is having to upgrade the stats packs to deal with them so I won't be submitting before christmas :cry: But sometime next semester when I can get my head round this multivariate stuff!!

J

Hi all. I am pretty new to cephalopods but I find them very interesting. I am enjoying reading this subject! So much interesting information! Wow! I can hardly fathom a sperm whale having to eat 300 plus squid a day! Amazing. Is it like and elephant in that it eats most of the time and sleeps some of the time? As for the large antarctic species of squid the whale consumed, how big are they? Sorry for my ignorance on the little questions. Hope some one doesn't mind answering them.
Some one (Jean?) mentioned that the larger antartic squid may be found closer to NZ if a cool water current flows there. Is that like in the arctic where glacial meltwater sinks under the warmer ocean water and flows elsewhere?
Interesting about the blackened beaks. I wondered too, if the color was normal or caused by digestive juices. Will be interesting to find out. By the way, how big is that beak?
Am looking forward to reading more on this subject. Thanks for sharing!

Krissie

Carol, unfortunately the approximate 30 tonne dead weight of this whale prevented them from doing anything. One hopes that by keeping them doused in water between tides that they will 'refloat' on the next tide; it didn't happen here.

Krissie, will try and feed you a little more information on those beaks soon, including info on sizes - however the standard way of referring to beaks by their rostral length would make the beaks sound very small indeed. Next year we'll augment that 'guide to characters/character states etc.' [added by tonmo: see link here (http://www.tonmo.com/science/public/measurements.php)] with some beak illustrations/photo's so you'll understand what we're talking about a little easier. (It is difficult stuff, and I have to keep referring to books myself.)

Re the Antarctic water, yes, a bit like Arctic meltwater - a direct feed/body of water of Antarctic origin (the Antarctic Circumpolar Current) flowing from the Antarctic North to New Zealand ... but where it goes afterwards I'm not sure (it hugs the southernmost side of the Campbell Plateau, southernmost New Zealand, then heads East). I'll do a spot more reading on the subject and post something a little more detailed than this soon. It is possible that Antarctic species occur at depth off southernmost NZ, but until we get down there, 55-65°S with big nets that go 1000m+ we'll not know for sure (and the seas can get pretty volatile down that neck of the woods).
Cheers
O

Very cool, squid flying onto the boat!! I've read about this sorta thing happening before (maybe Mark Normans book??). It'll be very interesting to find out what spp they are! Aren't ommastrephids known as flying squid??

catch ya

J

Not sure Jean - the one I thought was the 'flying squid' (or what the fishermen have referred to it down here) has always been Onychoteuthis 'banksii' (F: Onychoteuthidae). I've had a few of these delivered to me with all manner of wild and wonderful claims of flight .... thought the chaps had lost the plot when they first relayed the story to me.

....best do some more digging on the subject .... I think I'm digging myself into a hole :D

Very interesting stuff! I'm fairly new to these boards but I've really enjoyed reading this topic. By way of introduction, I'm the guy with the Architeuthis tattoo here (http://www.tonmo.com/imagetattoos.php). Anyway, back to the squid...

Not that I'd presume to be able to tell anyone here anything about squid but, according to Cephalopod Behaviour by Roger T. Hanlon and John B. Messenger, there are several species known as 'flying squid'. Here's a relevant quote from the book:

"Sometimes jetting takes a squid out of the water and there are several 'flying' squids known (e.g., oegopsids such as Onychoteuthis spp., Dosidicus gigas and some other ommastrephids); these animals may then glide tens of metres..."

(By the way, I really like the Cephalopod Behaviour book. There's quite a bit of interesting information and it's presented well enough that I can understand it despite having no formal background in biology.)


A thought occurred to me on the subject of how long beaks are retained inside the sperm whale. Assuming that the beaks are broken down rather than purged, would it seem reasonable that bigger, thicker beaks would take longer to digest than smaller ones? If that's true then perhaps the figure of 1.2 - 1.6 days for beak retention in a male would really only apply to an average sized squid beak. A thicker bigger thicker beak, like that of Mesonychoteuthis, might last considerably longer. Of course I have absolutely no idea how much longer that would be but perhaps that could explain why these beaks survived the trip up from Antarctica at less than light speed.

I am just making all of this up but, from where I sit (next to a small rubber sperm whale and giant squid in an apartment in California), it seems like a possibility.

It's a good point Jared, but 99.99% of the beaks in the stomach contents are in 'excellent' condition. If they were broken down via digestion then I would imagine there would be beaks in all stages of digestion (which doesn't seem to be the case); as such, purging would appear the most likely way of beak removal.

But wait until next year when we've had the opportunity to review the latest stomach contents in more detail. I think the story will become even more interesting. I've also been assured that the stomach contents of any subsequently stranded toothed whale will be heading our way ... so I think we'll be kept rather busy and rather smelly for quite some time yet.
Cheers
O

The following is an old but very interesting story with some parallels with modern whale behavour and diet. Thought I'd paste it here.

Discovery of fossilised vomit first evidence of dinosaur's diet

12.02.2002 10.07 am

A dinosaur-like animal that looked like a dolphin and swam like a fish can add another string to its bow – it was frequently as sick as a parrot.

Scientists have discovered the oldest fossilised vomit of ichthyosaurs, an ancient marine reptile that lived 160 million years ago by feeding off squid-like prey with indigestible shells.

The scientists unearthed the regurgitated stomach contents of ichthyosaurs in a clay quarry near Peterborough, north of London, which has provided the researchers with a fascinating insight into the feeding habits of these long-extinct creatures.

"We believe that this is the first time the existence of fossil vomit on a grand scale has been proven beyond reasonable doubt," said Peter Doyle, professor of geoscience from the University of Greenwich.

It seems that ichthyosaurs regularly regurgitated the harder elements of its meal, rather like an owl coughs up a pellet of indigestible bones and fur after digesting its prey.

The vomit "splat" contains the distinctive shells of belemnites, the nutritious shellfish on which the ichthyosaurs fed, which have been partly digested by the reptile's gastric juices.

"The Peterborough belemnite shells, viewed under a powerful electron microscope, have revealed acid-etching marks caused by the digestive fluids from the gut of the marine reptile," Professor Doyle said.

"This proves that the belemnites had been eaten by a predator. The fact that most of these belemnites were juveniles reinforces our view that they did not die of old age," he said.

Ichthyosaurs were to ancient reptiles what dolphins and whales are to mammals – an animal perfectly adapted to a fully marine life which evolved from a terrestrial ancestor.

Professor Doyle, who made the discovery with Jason Wood of the Open University, said the fossil vomit clears up a long-standing mystery of what happened to the shells of its belemnite diet.

"It is highly unlikely that these shells passed through the ichthyosaur's intestines and were excreted as droppings, as they would have damaged the soft tissue of the reptile's internal organs," Professor Doyle said.

"The only alternative is that the shells were vomited out, in much the same way that modern-day sperm whales regurgitate the indigestible beaks of squid they have eaten," he said.

SOOOO....... Whale vomit!!!!! Makes sense when you compare to owls which vomit the pellet.

Although must say, I wouldn't want to be in the path!!!!!:mrgreen:


Carol

:) You wouldn't really want to invite one of them home for dinner would you. It could be worse - they could be vegetarian and eat tonnes of diced carrot and sweetcorn.

Time to make a prediction: you'll probably start hearing reports (maybe headlines if people are not bored with the squid already, and nothing else is happening in the news) of Architeuthis washing ashore or being caught in fishing nets in about 8 days (15 December) through to Feb (at least).O

Well, I've just returned from picking up samples from the Tangaroa (NIWA research vessel), and apparently a 15 foot Architeuthis was caught ~ 50°S [off the Auckland Islands] ~ two weeks ago [~ 8 December] by a fishing vessel working alongside; not sure where the specimen is yet, or if they even kept it - the vessel that caught it returned to New Zealand to unload several days ago. It looks like it is going to be another 'normal' year down here for GS.
O

Really! Was it living? Let us know any details as you learn them... Thanks Steve!

WOW steve you seriously are my personal hero!!!! This is no sarcasm...this is simply amazing stuff!!!! I may not be able to comprehend all of this right now...but will someday with your help!!!!

Tonmo has brought me so much closer to my dream!!!! You help me live it until i can be there in the flesh!!!!! :D

Holy guacamole .... now why doesn't anyone in my immediate circle of friends speak so highly of me? Oh, that's right ... they know me better. Even I don't like myself!

What're you studying Sharpcuda?
O

Hello Steve did not mean to make you blush lol :oops: :oops:

I have learned alot from Tonmo and you though!!!
I am getting a BA in Zoology...Heading towards icthiology or invertebrae zoology. If I could only make up my bloody mind :x :?: lol

....well, I'm ever so slightly biased when it comes to your 2 choices, so I'll stay out of it. HOWEVER, if you make the right decision :wink: and want to work on some aspect of ceph biology, systematics or culture in NZ in the future then sing out (but there are many other invertebrate groups to work on that I am interested in....).

....back to the thread though, we should have an update on the squid beaks from the old whale stomachs by the end of Feb.

:) Thank you so much Steve really. My problem is I Think I have to many interests lol !!! Never a dull moment...!!! Can't wait to hear more about the squid beaks though!!! Should be interesting indeed!!!

Danielle

Well, it looks like we'll receive the stomach contents of another whale very soon - this one a pygmy sperm whale (Kogia breviceps). I understand that in addition to beaks within the stomach contents we have a few whole squid - something that will certainly make squid identification easier!

As soon as we get the Architeuthis stomach content work complete (another thread) we'll move on the original sperm whale stomach contents (this thread), and then the new Kogia contents. We'll attach a few pictures so that you can see the nature and extent of the task for yourselves (there's a lot of beak to examine).

Us

Gidday all,
We'll have some pictures of the beaks posted by week's end (by which time I will have either finished the roll of film or figured out how to rewind it in the middle ;) ). Be glad most of you are on the other side of the planet, though - any closer and you'd smell 'em for sure. :yuck:

..... 2 days to go ..... (she put slide film in instead of print, and 36 exposure instead of 24, and she calls me disorganised :x )

For a man with no camera himself, your gratitude is astounding.

:boohoo:

I do have a camera .... but I haven't got a lens. Now I wonder what happened to that? :notworth:

OK, here they are! These beaks are from the sperm whale stranded on Mahia Peninsula. There were seven lower beaks from Mesonychoteuthis and two upper and one lower from Architeuthis. You can see from the comparative photos that Meso (on left) leaves poor ol' Archi (on right) for dead.

Here's a little info we've been putting together on Mesonychoteuthis in prep for next week's news (keep your eyes peeled!):

Number of adult specimens known (reported): 6 (all but one recovered from sperm whale stomachs). Juveniles are not uncommon from surface waters to ~ 1000 m depth.
This species was first described on the basis of two arm crowns recovered from sperm whale stomach contents (Robson, 1925).
Estimated mantle length: 2-4m; total length to 30 feet.
Based on a combination of beak dimension, and both factory ship and photographic observations, Clarke (1986: 202) suggests Mesonychoteuthis attains a mantle length in excess of 2 m, possibly exceeding 4 m.
The occurrence of Mesonychoteuthis beaks in stomachs of female and small male sperm whales is intriguing, as these predators normally occur north of 40°S, while the squid are primarily reported from south of 40°S. Therefore Mesonychoteuthis, presently known from Antarctic waters, could extend as far north as 40°S, with the Subtropical Convergence delimiting the species’ northern distribution (Clarke 1980).
The male sperm whale stranded on Mahia Peninsula 28/11/2002 was 13 metres (~ 40 feet) in length, and contained 7 lower Mesonychoteuthis beaks in its stomach. It had probably only recently migrated back from the Antarctic, and had likely made few migrations to the region in its life.

References:
Clarke, M.R. 1980. Cephalpoda in the diet of sperm whales of the southern hemisphere and their bearing on sperm whale biology. Discovery Reports 37: 1–324.

Clarke, M.R. (Ed.) 1986. A handbook for the identification of cephalopod beaks. Oxford University Press, Oxford. 273 pp.

Robson, G.C. 1925. On Mesonychoteuthis, a new genus of Oegopsid. Cephalopoda. Annual Magazine of Natural History 9(16): 272-277.

http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/download.php?id=68

http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/download.php?id=69

http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/download.php?id=70

Oh, and here's a bonus shot of your favorite Teuthologist hard at work. ;)

(Eds note (SOS): watch for (Author's note (Tfisch)) more progressive wrinkles and hair either fall out or go greyer over the coming 4 years ....... that's probably how long it will take Tintenfisch to finish her degree if I keep distracting her from her hard work by making silly amends to her TONMO posts! Sigh indeed)

:read:

http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/download.php?id=71

Oh, and here's a bonus shot of your favorite Teuthologist hard at work. ;)

I think the caption to this should be "Do Ya Think I'm Sexy?" :mrgreen:

Funny, but the only other time I saw that gesture was in POKÉMON cartoons, when one Pokémon would diss another by pulling down one lower eyelid like that. Obviously, it is the Japanese version of giving someone "the finger". Is Steve-O' being rude here, or does he just have a piece of beak in his eye?

:cyclops: :squid:

Actually it's the punchline of a joke and is supposed to be the equivalent of 'the finger' in Gorilla.
But as this is a family forum... we'll just say Steve-O was displaying his red-rimmed insomniac eyeballs to the world.
:bugout:

..........and that pic was on a good day

Don't look now, but Elvis has made his way to the TONMO.com Meet the Staff page:

http://www.tonmo.com/meet.php

:elvis:

Doubling up on another post, but doing so because the whale in question is the specimen from which we'll 'soon' report the beaks.

We've just received notice that another sperm whale has stranded, and that samples will be on their way. Never a dull moment in New Zealand (anyone want to come and study here).

Of particular note on the attached 3 images (with permission to use granted to us by Debbie Freeman of the NZ Department of Conservation) is the extent of scar tissue on the animal's head. Because of the regularity of spacing and linear nature of many of the scars it has been suggested that they are the result of inter-male aggression (that the scars are caused by the aggressors teeth); however, not all of those scars are that regular. Is it possible that the talon-like hooks on the Mesonychoteuthis arms and tentacle clubs are responsible for making these scars? There are a few Architeuthis scars there too (the round ones), and this animal had certainly eaten two Architeuthis quite recently.

Will keep you posted on developments
Us

http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/download.php?id=4066

http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/download.php?id=4067

http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/download.php?id=4068

Yeah, those look like some serious battle scars. I can definitely see the sucker scars as well. In Whale 2 there are four parallel scars that almost make a "J"... the first three are almost evenly-spaced, but the fourth is a bit stray. Do they seem too apart for teeth marks?

:shock: :shock: :shock: "LOOK INTO MY EYE"!!! If it was me it would be because i needed a serious visine treatment.
It is so nice to see you two having fun with your job...even among all of the stench!!! :meso: :bonk:

that was weird i tried to post this thread under steve's eye picture. Oh well the site must be on crack right now!!!

:cyclops:

No, you posted it to the right place! Steve's eye picture is on page three of this thread -- all new notes get added to the bottom of the note thread. So the site is drug-free!

...as is its Webmaster... :rainbow:

LOL Tony. Sorry I just got confused...one of those days!!! Your is perfect as always!!! Must have been yhe eyeballs that confused me! :shock: :shock:

As if to prove that they really do take whales for "scientific purposes," here's a Japanese page that shows the stomach contents of several whales, including a sperm whale with catholic taste in squid:

http://www.e-kujira.or.jp/newsrelease/release-04b.html

Clem

well atleast they have a variety of squid to dine on, thats encouraging....it seems Tani was playing Jonah..... better luck next time...

stick and move, stick and move


:cthulhu: :heart: :beer:

.....watch this space :mrgreen:

While we're watching this space...

Kubodera Tsunemi, the teuthologist who last year received the Architeuthis specimen captured (and photographed) while still alive, maintains an on-line catalogue of cephalopod beaks. (http://research.kahaku.go.jp/zoology/Beak/index.html) Opening the pages with Altavista's Babelfish translator (http://world.altavista.com/) will make it readable, if unintentionally poetic. There's many hours worth of material for the amateur cephist to take in, but it's well worth a look.

Clem

Indeed, watch this space in days to come; it is time to resurrect this popular old thread.

We'll process ~ 25 whale stomachs this coming week. It will take some planning and a few months, but eventually we will come up with a TONMO exclusive - our very own key to identifying cephalopods, both squid and octopus, using beak morphology - an online article to assist people with identifications based on partial remains.

We've been at a whale stranding all day - 13 male sperm whales off West Coast, Auckland, NZ; will be there again tomorrow to process the stomachs of 11 of them. Have heaps of pics of colossal and giant squid battle scars on their heads ....

.... and we smell terrible!

Till morrow
Us

Ye gods...

Wow, I'm sorry Steve... I read about it on the news here. While I understand that its good to get your hands on specimens, I don't envy you the task of seeing all those animals dead.

Let us know if you find anything interesting, okay?

John

Saw you on the news last night! When I calmed down after hearing that some lowlife had chainsawed off a jaw :x:x:x:x

Be interesting to hear what's in there!

J

All very interesting stuff :)

Just a quick note as a lot of Japanese language-only pages get posted here - you can post a link directly to the translation by adding the URL to:

http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/urltrurl?lp=ja_en&url=

like this (from one of Clem's posts):

http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/urltrurl?lp=ja_en&url=http://research.kahaku.go.jp/zoology/Beak/index.html

Someone passed that trick on to me today so I thought I'd share ;)

Emps

Saw you on the news last night! When I calmed down after hearing that some lowlife had chainsawed off a jaw :x:x:x:x

To read a New Zealand Herald article about the whale stranding (and jaw poaching), click here. (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/storydisplay.cfm?storyID=3534557&thesection=news&thesubsection=general)

Emps, thank you for letting people know how to route non-English pages directly through the translator. I was simply too lazy to work it out myself.

Clem

Clem: Its not actually very clear as they jam a frame around things as I'm sure they'd rather use their site in its full glory - this way is more convenient ;)

Steve: You said earlier:

Of particular note on the attached 3 images (with permission to use granted to us by Debbie Freeman of the NZ Department of Conservation) is the extent of scar tissue on the animal's head. Because of the regularity of spacing and linear nature of many of the scars it has been suggested that they are the result of inter-male aggression (that the scars are caused by the aggressors teeth); however, not all of those scars are that regular. Is it possible that the talon-like hooks on the Mesonychoteuthis arms and tentacle clubs are responsible for making these scars? There are a few Architeuthis scars there too (the round ones), and this animal had certainly eaten two Architeuthis quite recently.

Do you have any plans to take samples from whale skin to explore this aspect as it doesn't appear to have been much studied? I did find this picture:

http://seawifs.gsfc.nasa.gov/OCEAN_PLANET/IMAGES/squid_whaleskin.gif

which is, I believe, from:

John Murray, Johan Hjort, (1912) The Depths of the Ocean. Macmillan, London:

http://stommel.tamu.edu/~baum/ocean-books/ocean-books-mn.html#murray-hjort:1912

but there doesn't seem an awful lot else on this (at least as far as my limit knowledge goes ;) ).

I would imagine with all the captive cetaceans that there have been studies into scarring and the aging of scars (I would imagine younger scar tissue would looked stretched) and it could provide another line of investigation - a bit like cetacean forensics ;)

Emps

While I understand that its good to get your hands on specimens, I don't envy you the task of seeing all those animals dead.

From the outside and, worse, inside... here's a rundown of what we've been up to. I imagine everyone's wondering what that funny smell is anyway. :?

On Monday the Department of Conservation, organizing the clean-up and burial of these animals, were still removing the jawbones (which go to the local Maori, except one being flown to New Zealand's National Museum to be displayed with the rest of the skeleton), and we did our first stomach retrieval... which is, really, an appalling process and a long one if you don't know the exact location of the stomach. Turns out the stomachs we examined in these whales were all in different locations (probably affected by rolling around in the surf, which side they were lying on, etc), anywhere from 'gassing out' at the mouth to right up in the ribcage to about midway down the abdomen. To find the first one, we had to follow the intestines, which are 215 m long, approximately the thickness of a human leg, and full of stuff you don't even want to think about. As it turned out, the stomach (second of three, where the beaks accumulate) was empty.
On Tuesday, however, we examined the stomachs of ten more whales (which is why you can probably smell us, wherever you are at the moment), and found anything from 5 beaks to half a bucketful, so we've collected some good data and increased the known sperm whale stomach contents in New Zealand elevenfold. There look to be some large cranchiid beaks in there, possibly Mesonychoteuthis but no enormous ones, and we won't know for sure until we sort them and examine them closely.
It was a fascinating experience, once you got beyond the tragedy of it, the revulsion at what you were actually wading through, and the smell.
Some photos...

http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/download.php?id=1291

http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/download.php?id=1292

http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/download.php?id=1293

More; these are of the insides, so not for the faint of heart.

http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/download.php?id=1294

http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/download.php?id=1295

http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/download.php?id=1296

eeewwwwwww :yuck:

man .......I wish I lived closer I'da broken out my gummies!

J

.... and just a few more. Last evening I had a shower, a bath (with detol), a bath (with soap) and then a bath (with every imaginable sweet-smelling concoction I could throw in there) ...... and I still reek!!

We got some pretty fantastic samples - enough to keep someone busy for a couple of years if they were to do the job thoroughly. Surely there must be someone out there in that big-old world that could come and work on these samples for a Masters degree. Funding is the issue right now - we have several applications in ourselves (for funding), and one about to go in on our behalf.

http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/download.php?id=1300

http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/download.php?id=1301

http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/download.php?id=1302

.... and just a few more. Last evening I had a shower, a bath (with detol), a bath (with soap) and then a bath (with every imaginable sweet-smelling concoction I could throw in there) ...... and I still reek!!



try something with lemon in it! It cuts most pongs! Maybe tomato juice would work........I believe it does for skunk smell!

J

and just a few more. Last evening I had a shower, a bath (with detol), a bath (with soap) and then a bath (with every imaginable sweet-smelling concoction I could throw in there) ...... and I still reek!!

Steve
The trick is not to use hot water - that opens the pores & lets all that nice smell in. Look on the bright side - you're guaranteed a seat to yourself on the bus for a while! (more cold showers will help) :mrgreen:

Hi,

This is a little off-topic, but Tintenfisch's bull picture was interesting. Don't mean to offend anyone, but why is the penis extended? Considering the mechanics of whale mating, is this normal for the death throes of a sperm whale?

John

Hi John. We weren't there on day 1 so don't know whether the protrusion of the penis is 'normal'. What has (had) happened in the interim is that the animals started to bloat, and perhaps (perhaps!!!) the penis protruded from the belly (it did so on every animal; all 12 were male) simply because of a build up of gas/pressure inside.

It was quite a horrendous job cutting into the abdominal cavity of these brutes to get to the stomachs, as the they basically exploded when the cavity was first penetrated. It sounds barbaric, but there is so much information contained therein that it would have been equally criminal to have left them intact; you have to make the most of a bad situation.
Cheers
O

Steve,

Exactly. I mean, i've helped dissect a gray whale calf, and the damned thing burst open in an orgy of blood and... well, I'll leave the rest to your imagination. I was saddened by the loss of this beast, but to simply leave it there for the flies was also wrong. The amount of information you can get from a dead specimen means you don't have to go out whacking the live ones. :)

Sounds like quite an adventure...

John

Saw you on the news last night! When I calmed down after hearing that some lowlife had chainsawed off a jaw :x:x:x:x

To read a New Zealand Herald article about the whale stranding (and jaw poaching), click here. (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/storydisplay.cfm?storyID=3534557&thesection=news&thesubsection=general)

Sorry to resurect this thread but I saw this news article and it rang a bell - is there really such a demand for whale jaws?

Plea over missing whale bones

Zoologists are seeking the public's help as they try to discover how two jawbones disappeared from a 56ft whale washed ashore on an island.

The skeleton of the fin whale was removed from the beach on Coll, in the Inner Hebrides, earlier this month.

It was taken to the National Museums of Scotland (NMS) research facilities at Granton in Edinburgh - but the 12ft long jawbones are nowhere to be found.

The disappearance was described as "a most unusual zoological phenomenon".

NMS would not speculate on the possible fate of the bones, which weigh about 250kg.

Already dead

However, a spokesperson said experts were "intrigued" about where they had gone.

It is thought that the fin whale was already dead by the time it arrived on the beach at Coll at the beginning of February.

The operation to remove it from the beach saw the blubber and soft tissue removed from the skeleton, which was transported by truck and ferry to Edinburgh three weeks ago.

Finding these jaw bones would help fill a massive gap in our collection
Andrew Kitchener
NMS curator of birds and mammals

Staff at Granton will spend the next few weeks cleaning the bones before the whale joins the NMS research collections.

Andrew Kitchener, curator of birds and mammals, said that the NMS does not have a complete fin whale skeleton.

"Finding these jaw bones would help fill a massive gap in our collection," he said.

And he added: "The disappearance of these jawbones is a most unusual zoological phenomenon.

"We would be very grateful to anybody on Coll who might happen to stumble across them."

The fin whale is second only in size to the blue whale, the biggest mammal on earth.

Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/scotland/3578187.stm

Published: 2004/03/29 10:36:48 GMT

© BBC MMIV

Emps

An evil little kitty told me that the teeth fetch something like NZ$1500 each, and that there are 50 teeth in each jaw.

Looks like we'll be resurrecting this thread again .... yesterday I received a call re the stomach contents of one sperm whale that stranded on Chatham Islands, due East of Wellington (many miles offshore), and today I hear that a bull has stranded on a beach to the northwest of where I'm at. I'll soon be doing the Jonah thing again, either later this avo or early morrow (to extract the beaks from the stomach); could be worse - it could be mid summer, with core temperatures inside the whale of ~ 40°C. I feel ill already, and I haven't even picked up a blade ...

:mrgreen:

Happy hunting!

Sir Dr Umm......., why don't you trundle on downunder and help ... and possibly stay a while, researching all of these beaks for a thesis?

I'm working on (slowly) accumulating $$$ and a little knowledge.

Sir Dr Umm......., why don't you trundle on downunder and help ... and possibly stay a while, researching all of these beaks for a thesis?

[kicks :oshea: under the table] Steve!!! For Cthulhu's sake, ix-nay on the 'undle on down'-tray!! :goofysca:

Ouch!

As there are very few images of Architeuthis sucker scars on the hides of whales I thought I'd post a few here.

I think (still not 100% sure; will know tomorrow) that we are dealing with a small female, length 12m, weight ~ 15-20 tons. Local iwi are doing something with the carcass, so I cannot access the stomach until morrow. More info soon.

http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/download.php?id=3281

http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/download.php?id=3279

http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/download.php?id=3280

Always cool to see that. Are there diagnostic features in those scars, or do we just assume that Architeuthis caused them becasue of their size and shape?

I wish I had skin that thick. :cry:

I've never seen pictures of whale scars - thanks, Steve! The suckers are large. I really don't want to meet Archi on his turf. :goofysca:

Melissa

Here are a couple of pics of Steve taking the beaks out the stomach. This is in our new wet lab Yay!!!!! You have no idea of the stench, unless of course you've been in close proximity to decomposing whale.

http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/files/steve-whale-stomach01.jpg



http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/files/steve-whale-stomach02.jpg

:shock:

.... I VERY rarely use gloves (I like to feel what it is I am handling; there's a lot of information in texture); that will give you an indication of just how revolting that job was!! The 4th floor of our building evacuated pretty quickly, just from the stench of that wee sample. The smell is seriously eveeeel!

The squid beaks are stuck to that thar piece of stomach lining; I'm just picking the last few off. Great research topic .... any takers?

I've a wee 35 second video clip that I'm sending to Tony (too large to email) that will show you just what we get up to in the field (what's involved in collecting these samples). Not nice!

uh...the stomach looks nasty :? and i thought they were biggewr than tht...

The stomach is considerably larger than this; this is only a small fragment that I'm extracting residual beaks from.

The whale proved to be female, ~ 12m long. One of these days we'll get some sensational info online, describing the squid composition of their stomachs.

Hello Steve,

Does this look like an Architeuthis beak to you?

Big Black Beak From Physeter Stomach (http://www.micromacro.co.uk/natural_history/html/marine/nh3007.htm)

Looks awfully robust and black..

Cheers,
Clem

It looks more like a Messie beak to me. The examples I've seen have been pitch-black and very robust looking.

It looks more like a Messie beak to me.
Yup, that's what I thought, too. The attachment points for the buccal muscles are seriously large. The scientist who collected it might not have been familiar with Mesonychoteuthis.

I'd really like a resin casting of a Messie beak. Wouldn't you?

Clem

I'd really like a resin casting of a Messie beak. Wouldn't you?

Clem


Oh yeah!!!

J

can't believe I didn't bring my clarke out to university with me. What was I thinking? I would definitely third the non-Archie agreement, though some expert opinions might be well appreciated....hmm?

Cheers!