Here are two of the 'not-so-nice' messages that I have received over this last press announcement. I must stress from the very beginning that I am a conservationist (near extremist). The thread title is referring to myself as a 'like-minded conservationist'.

This thread follows a post by squidhavefeelings2 (SHF2) on the 'News and Contents Updates' board.

SFH2, I've repeated your initial post immediately below. Thanks for posting this!! Sincerely!

"I felt sad when I read the story.
They should not have killed the squid by gaffing at it and dragging it on board, indiscriminately killing the animal. Now that its dead, cut it open and study it. Fine I have no problem with that. I just wish it wasn't dead.

Also, why must we keep demonizing the poor animal by calling it a "monster". Its just an animal, no more of a monster than a shark or you and I.

I would like to know, if this squid was still alive, would it be possible to still somehow study it in its natural environment ? Is it possible to do what they did with Keiko the killer whale, tracking its movement, etc.

Thanks."

..........
Several others are:

Sir,

I read with sadness the story regarding the capture of the magnificient sea creature. Why is this neccesary I ask? Why can't this rare creature and others like it live in peace, unharmed by man's intervention? You may have something interesting to study but the sea, and the world, lost something very precious. I am angry that this has happened.

...........

I read the article on the "killer squid seen attacking fish in the Ross Sea last week may mark the first sighting of the world's largest and most aggressive squid species." and I am absoultely appaled and disgusted that with such a rare species you found it necessary to catch it, keep it and kill it for your own research. Who is the real Killer/Aggressor. It may be the last species and now there are none. Its disgusting how everyone feels it neccessary to destroy the beauty in on our planet.

.........

Before I go to great lengths to respond to these (and similar concerns), should anyone like to add their concerns to this list please do so.
Kindest
Steve

what the hell? steve, pay no attention. These squid are NOT, i repeat N-O-T rare, as far as has been indicated, with sources saying they make up a huge amount of a food source for giant squid.

And here ssomething for those guys about that also; global; warming is in many cases causing the squid population to increase exponentially.

To writer number one, "how can u call it a monster" or soemthing, heres news, IT IS A MONSTER. IT HAS RAZORS ON ITS ENORMOUS TENTACLES!

Oh, and as far as i know this was trawled up, in a catch of other fish, and or squid; it was not targeted, and added to that Steve did not catch him himself, you in bred morons, he simply collected it when informed.

sorry this was rambling, im tired, but this annoyed me.

My typical response here is "to each his/her own".

I appreciate people's passion in protecting life, etc., but I also believe people should do their research before casting criticism. As tomossan points out (quite abrasively :) ), Steve did not target the animal, but rather was the recipient of the specimen for study after the incident occurred. And it certainly is not the last of the species by all accounts.

While all of earth's creatures deserve at least some level of respect and should be treated with decency, the value of allowing scientists to study our environment (inhabitants included) should not be diminished. We stand to learn a lot about ourselves and our world by taking a closer look where appropriate. I'm all for progression.

Oh, and as far as i know this was trawled up...

tomassan,

it was not just simply trawled up. Some of the media omited certain
facts in theirs. I think Australian Times has more details and is more accurate. Let me quote to you what was reported by the Austrianlian Times, "They were hauling in the fish and they saw this giant thing attacking their catch, so they gaffed it and dragged it on board," Dr O'Shea said. The fishermen refused to be identified for fear of angering conservationists... David Pemberton, senior curator of zoology at the Tasmanian Museum, said he was "very sad" the fishermen had killed the animal. "

Let me also borrow a line here from THE ELEPHANT MAN;
"who are the real monsters ?"

Let say for a minute that the Yeti or Sasquatch is real and
if someone ever found the Yeti or Sasquatch and had a choice between killing it with a gun for his/her 15 minutes of fame or letting it go. I hope they would choose to let it go.


Steve O,
Let me also repeat what I said in another post.
I was glad to see your initial answer to my earlier post saying "most of the work you do is geared towards conservation of the marine environment and its species - not collection of squid specimens, self promotion or the sensationalisation of specimen finds (like this present 'colossal squid')".

Thank you, I applaud you.
And thank you for an opportunity to be educated and discuss this further with you.

Given this hugh Colossal Squid is rare (or rarely found/seen), should it be protected ? Should it and could it, be listed as an endangered specie to be protected ?. I believe Dr Rod Hay (New Zealand) is CITES Regional Representative for Oceania. Do you know him and is he active on any of the Forum here ?

cheers.

I'll probably get in real trouble for posting this, but here goes.

The discovery and study of the vast and diverse forms of life on this planet ultimately lead humanity to a greater understanding of our fragile planet and of life itself. I believe that the pursuit of this has helped helped humanity become what it is. Whether that be monster or otherwise is not really the place of one person to judge, so I won't.

However, I will say that scientific research, especially research on animals, has helped us develop medicines and gain a better understanding of our own biology...an expert from this site can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think I read somewhere that giant squid have the largest brain axions on earth, and scientists have been using them to develop a better understanding of our own brains and how to treat brain disorders. Wow! What a fantastic thing it is to be able to do that!

Granted, I'm more or less a simpleton when it comes to big ethical questions, but if a loved one of mine ever is successfully treated or spared death because of what humanity has learned from the animal world, then I for one am grateful.

Ok, let the hash slinging begin...

squid, point conceeded, i was wrong about it being trawled up; but even then its nothing at all to do with Steve; in fact he may be doing these squid a great favour by the research he has done on them.

and again, i stse the fact that these squid are thought to make up a huge part of a sperm whales diet; from what ive read so far, they are NOT rare.

Also, until im proved wrong i dont feel that this kind of beast would have felt fear, or anguis as it died, and so its death does not concern me; as usual in my opinion dying is the problem, not death.

anyway, its good that you care about creatures, but still, its a bloody great monster.... while i dont want them decimated, neither do i feel an emotional bond with it :D

oh, and im sorry for being abrasive; i was tired, and i got a lil bit annoyed at that heh

tomassan,

no problem. Its cool.
I hear what you're saying also about the importance of scientific research. Once its dead, yes, we should study it.

I say do not kill it unless you are sur you can eat it!!

:roll:

Who be you Oh Kaharoa spy? For those who don't know I have a sneaking suspicion this is a cobber in disguise, aboard a jolly-wee vessel R.V. Kaharoa, run by NIWA (my previous place of employment) - I've spent many an enjoyable trip aboard that fine boat!

no; id kill a dinosaur, with no intention of eating it. Or an alligator. OR a giant shark. Or, if i was in the water, and had the means to, a Meso.

selective killing is not natural; it is a product of civilisation to presume you can only kill what you want to eat

i was going to leave this topic alone, but another favorite animal (shark) was invoked, i had to.... killing for self preservation is not a construct of civilization, im sure it happens all the time...not eating the shark or alligator is just wasteful since they both have some good meat (not to mention you could get some shoes or a suitcase while youre at it...) never tried to eat a dinosaur so i dunno, and Steve says they havent tested for ammonia content of the meso so i still have time to tweak my new and improved batter....:)

id kill a dinosaur, with no intention of eating it. Or an alligator. OR a giant shark. Or, if i was in the water, and had the means to, a Meso.

so you could ice a dinosaur, gator or shark without help? WOW! i guess im nowhere near the toughest customer around here :)

dang - i wish i had gotten to the other threads first.....

Steve,

I think that it is quite useful to think for a minute about the real issues that this kind of comment raises about biology and exploration as well as conservation.

It is ironic of course that the state of affairs with squids in general and this species in particular is that I'm sure you'd be ecstatic if in fact it were possible to collect this and and Architeuthis and many other species and keep them alive for even a little while to learn about them.

That being said, I'd be quite interested in your views about how a scientist can do things we are all interested in-- understanding the incredible diversity of life that lies still unexplored beneath the seas, educating people about its importance, and getting support for the work from people with money, while not just being a cataloger of things in jars.

It seems that one of the important contributions you are making to the whole field is spreading the knowledge, and that comes with a whole load of two-edged swords. The same media fests that will get you invited to give talks, get documentaries shown on TV, draw school groups into museums and biology classes will, of course, lead to horrible misquotes, distortions, and omissions. But really, one of the things that is distinguishing your approach compared to lots of other teuthologists is your enthusiasm for getting your findings out as fast as possible to as many interested parties as possible, including of course all of us amatuers. This is I think an important trend in many fields of science, as much about broadening support for research as involving enthusiasts like us in little bits of the research.

Biologists always have a hard time explaining why they have to kill so many things to study them, but compared to that entomologist Irwin killing millions of insects in the rain forest to find a single new species, it seems like finishing off a dying squid is pretty small beer. But I would say that the emphasis on classification over habitat and ecology is a tension in your field; who knows if we'll ever know enough about these creatures and how they live to know if they're threatened til its too late?

Whew.

Thanks everyone for your posts; they have given me something to think about. I will respond soon.
Cheers
Steve

I be the one who looks as though I have eaten the most squid! I have to keep on eye things to report to the powers that be!

What I want to know is what these big squiddies should be called? I have been searching my dictionaries and am now confused (situation normal).

Giant = unusually large
Colossal = enormous
Enormous = Very large

Does this mean therefore that a Giant Squid or a Colossal Squid is the bigger - semantically speaking?

Cheers

OKAY.... my :twocents: :

I'm behind you Steve. The fact that these people are even THINKING that you're some kind of "Steve-O the Squid Slayer" is both misguided and stupid.

Ignore them... Truth is, you will never be able to please everyone all the time, and to be honest, the mass media will tend to sensationalize everything no matter what you do. Biologists are not killers. People who study the natural world are unfortunately beset upon by all sides by those who don't understand science, nor understand how painful it is to watch those lifeforms you care for so much be torn to pieces by forces both natural and unnatural. You didn't kill the squid. And that squid's sacrifice may go a helluva long way more towards protecting it than sitting in some lab looking at sonar images. Personally, I envy you.

I stand by what I've said before; people only care about what they can truly experience. This "Messie" is something the whole world should know about. Its every bit as beautiful as it is frightening. Its the unknown... its what fuels the heart of any real scientist.

Hate mail be damned...

Anyway, I should go start working on my own "Squiddies" (Those who have seen "The Matrix" know of what I speak :twisted: )

Peace and Ika, Sushi and Sake,

John

Giant = unusually large
Colossal = enormous
Enormous = Very large


....would that be you R?

My dictionary defines them as:
Giant = remarkably or supernaturally large (I must have a bigger dictionary than you)
Colossal = of immense size; huge, gigantic
Enormous = unusually large in size; immense or vast

Immense = unusually large; huge, large; vast; without limits; immeasurable

We could go in circles here .... :roll:

So, as colossal has more letters I hereby decree it to be larger than plain-old giant. Moreover, colossal means gigantic even, and this has to be several orders of magnitude gianter than giant, in addition to being both immense and immeasurable.

....problem is 'supernaturally large' sounds pretty big also.

Science doesn't kill... People kill.

I'm not against science but I think sometimes we need to examine and question the scientific research. Science must be balanced with social responsibility. Albert Einstein said that if he knew that his work in nuclear physics would lead to the invention of the nuclear bomb, he never would have studied physics!

"Hell is paved with good intentions, not with bad ones." — George Bernard Shaw

Some of the Bone Heads (vertebrate Paleontologists) around here use prefix's such as Super and Ultra.

:nautilus:

Steve - supernaturally large sounds kind of cool, but this isnt a phantom squid... (maybe archi could qualify for that) in one of my dictionaries, the first couple definitions deal with the people of fiction/fairy tales who were of great size, maybe thats where the supernatural comes from....

Architeuthoceras - i always kind of liked that progression...as long as someone doesnt jump the gun and go from super to hyper.....

shf2 - why cripple science by throwing social responsibility in? obviously, prudence is needed, whats the point in killing a lot of animals to learn about them if your studying significantly impacts them...(either in # or in the populations behavior) plus societies are constantly changing, bending certain rules, throwing out others.... id rather have scientists get answers and need help dealing with people than being socially conscious and accomplishing little if anything....

SHF2:

I'm sure Einstein's comment about the destructive potential of applied physics and his "complicity" in the endeavour was sincere; on the other hand, he readily assented to Leo Szilard's request that he use his influence to warn FDR of the very real threat posed by the Third Reich's own pursuit of fissile munitions. Ultimately, Eisntein, Szilard and (especially) Niels Bohr embraced the idea of complementarity: science, embodied in the Bomb, provided the means by which nations and individuals might destroy one another, but also yielded a deeper understanding of the inter-relatedness and mutual dependency of things. The "stuff" of nuclear weapons is also the stuff of life.

Perhaps the ideal of "social responsibility" should be junked as a goal. After all, whose society is really at issue? Seems to me that social responsibility is just a slightly more palatable term for an agenda that is still, at its root, deeply anthropocentric: preservation for our sake.

WhiteKiboko: A case can be made for imposing a few societal constraints every now and then, if only to encourage the development of approaches and techniques that do not require the exploitation of extant organisms. On one level, the current leaps being made in the medical applications of genetic research and computer modeling have been driven by the social injunction against experimentation on living human beings, giving science the means to observe and predict the actions of living systems without destroying them. Far from "crippling" science, the injunction against human experimentation has bred ingenious approaches leading to profound changes in both theoretical and applied science, with not a little social introspection emerging as a happy by-product. Sometimes, a little "no" leads to a big "yes."

SHF2: Thanks for starting this valuable conversation.

Clem

Humungous Squid? Nuh - not at all appetising.

Prodigious Squid - has a certain ring to it.

MEGASQUID -now we are talking!!!

Who said yours is bigger than mine? My Websters is about 5" thick.

I'll have to delve deeper into this matter.


R. :)

SHF2,

You hit the nail right on the head. Most people have a complete misunderstanding of what science is, i.e., they consider it as either good or evil. Science is a systematic search for empirical knowledge, and therefore has no inherent ethics. That's both a strength and a weakness depending on how you want to deal with it from a philosophical standpoint. Science can show us how to build a nuclear weapon; ethics will determine whether or not we use it.

In the end, its all about personal responsibility and ethical and moral views. In the end, we choose the path.

Sushi and Sake,

John

Thought it be yee R! Welcome to TONMO :D

Mine is the Collins Dictionary and Thesaurus (in one volume even). It's only 7cm thick, but it's in real tiny print (it's not the same as the other picture books they have on Kaharoa)! I think it's better than yours :madsci:

There seem to be several debates happening around us right now - we're sandwiched. Have you just been off northernmost NZ doing the seamount voyage?

Cheers ears ....

Sorry everyone else, I'll get back to my original post soon. Am ever-so-slightly losing the plot at this end.
O

I would just like to say that I would eat a dinosaur. I would also pay to see a shark fight a gorilla.

How about "UBER-SQUID! :P

UBER-Squid sounds a bit grave for this purpose.

Seeing as these things seem to hang around New Zeland waters (at least soome of the time) how about "wheke whakaharahara"

Excuse me if this is a bit of a heath robinson translation but my Williams Maori dictionary is only about 1" thick!!



The Spy!

I would also pay to see a shark fight a gorilla.

the gorilla wouldnt stand a chance....unless it was Grape Ape (from the cartoon) as for the uber issue, shouldnt it normally have the dots (cant remeber the name, and yes i know they a pain to pull up)

prodigous squid does have a nice ring to it, but then again so does KibokoSquid... :)

Right you are, it should be über-squid (the dots are called an umlaut). :grad:

How about "Super Hype Funkadelic Action Squid with Kung Fu Grip"?

Sushi and Sake,

John

I couldn't figure out how to do the umlauts! :heee:

I still like the name though.

Octomatt...

Are there a lot of Cephs in Minnesota? :P Any Squibbons out there?

Sushi and Sake,

John

Oh, and WHO is the FIRST Minnesotan Ceph-nerd? :lol:

Back to the original thread :roll:

I read with sadness the story regarding the capture of the magnificient sea creature. Why is this neccesary I ask? Why can't this rare creature and others like it live in peace, unharmed by man's intervention? You may have something interesting to study but the sea, and the world, lost something very precious. I am angry that this has happened.

...........

I read the article on the "killer squid seen attacking fish in the Ross Sea last week may mark the first sighting of the world's largest and most aggressive squid species." and I am absoultely appaled and disgusted that with such a rare species you found it necessary to catch it, keep it and kill it for your own research. Who is the real Killer/Aggressor. It may be the last species and now there are none. Its disgusting how everyone feels it neccessary to destroy the beauty in on our planet.
...........

I've enjoyed your responses, but I'm afraid that I cannot ignore letters like those above. One disgruntled person on the radio or television can spell disaster for a research programme, so I have spent quite a bit of time in the past trying to pacify people (the letters I received this time around were quite tame compared to some in the past). There are times when I just have to walk away from an argument, as it is obvious that common ground will never be reached.

Many people truly believe that fish comes in filleted form in a supermarket. Try spending time on a fishing boat. Many people believe that the fish that they are buying in a supermarket is fresh. First it is caught, often battered and bruised in a net (alongside all manner of other invertebrates and fish [they call it bycatch and it can be a significant part of any net catch]), then either filleted and frozen aboard the vessel, frozen whole, or thrown on ice and placed in a hold for quite a few days before the vessel returns to shore (sometimes the fish holds stink of rotten fish). Fish that was frozen whole is then defrosted in order to process it (fillet); that placed on ice is sent (hopefully directly) to a processing plant and then filleted. Both are then refrozen and dispatched to a supermarket/or other distributor. Then it is defrosted and placed on trays for you to pick the best fillet for dinner (but maybe not sold on the first day - it probably goes into a chiller at some point). Fresh? NOT ALL FISH IS TREATED IN THIS WAY, BUT A LOT IS!!!!

If you have the Blue Planet series (Deep Trouble) check out the images of deep-sea fish (orange roughy) being taken to the rubbish dump by the truckload, as these fish were surplus to requirement or could not be processed in time. Check out the images of bycatch from the prawn fishery, or those of unwanted (no commercial value) fish discards going over the side (bycatch), or those turtles caught in abandoned nets. There is a price that the environment pays in order for the masses to purchase fish in a supermarket.

This Mesonychoteuthis was a single individual. Undoubtedly more have been caught and discarded. I cannot stop a fishery (the fishery techniques can be modified to minimise bycatch), but by promoting this magnificent animal, sensationalising it in fact, I can heighten peoples awareness that they exist (and there are many more considerably smaller species that are caught, equally worthy of conservationists attention, that sadly don't get press coverage).

At least people know about the animal now; something might be done (and by conserving/preserving one large species in the marine environment, hopefully many others will be preserved by default, being included within the larger species range).

I hope that by responding to people about their concerns that they will see my point of view, but as I said earlier, this isn't always the case (especially when dealing with people that for ethical reasons do not eat meat; NO DISRESPECT INTENDED).

Steve

you cant reach everyone... 40%-60% of the population reserves the right to remain ignorant....

Steve -

"Deep Trouble" was an incredible addition to the Blue Planet series. I recently watched it and really learned a lot. I recommend it to all!

Matt

PS: to John: Tintenfisch is Minnesota's FIRST ceph nerd! :)

Octomatt:

No kidding?! I could have sworn she was German or from some other European nation... I should read the bios! :P

Steve:

I know that one grumbler can make a difference, but its true that you will never be able to please everyone. In another post I mentioned the frustration of playing politics with conservation, and I still stand by that. Cephs are not the most well-represented species when looking at oceanic conservation issues. Like sharks, they suffer from bad P.R., and its not going to be easy to shed that image in the eyes of people. Face it; cephs aren't exactly the societal view of "cute".

Before anyone fires off something nasty my way, I want to say that I know this by experience. ANYTHING made to LOOK good is what people want to conserve. Spin is everything in our mass-media society. People for the most part would do little to conserve resources, life forms, etc. if there wasn't something in it for them. Even our interest in cephs here in TONMO is in part due to our aesthetic interest in these creatures. We LIKE them. Those of us who aren't researchers get something out of the deal; a pleasure from dealing with them and people who share in our interest. Not a bad thing at all, but not entirely altruistic.

Case in point: I hate cockroaches. I think they're vile, horrific vermin whose very existence is engineered to bug ME. I've studied them, and I realize their importance to our ecosystems. One's species does not survive half a billion years without being of SOME importance to the world. However, there is still part of me that wouldn't be too sad to see them wiped out. I realize how wrong it is to think that way, but for some reason I know I can't help it. Fear often clouds judgement.

Think about it like this (average person's POV): "Conservation of dolphins? YES! They smile, they're cute. Conservation of Sharks? MAYBE... Discovery makes a big deal out of "Shark Week", and people are beginning to see that sharks are important, and wonderful in their own way. Conservation of cephs? ... ?" Mysterious and alien, they conjure images of both fear and fascination. I believe that if we can, we need to use spin to bring cephs to the public, and those of us who know a thing or two about conservation and related issues must be prepared to find and use "sheild species" if need be to protect cephs and the ocean itself.

I don't envy you Steve... The battle for conservation is nasty and fraught with political and social pitfalls. I think there is light at the end of the tunnel, but it will be a long, strange trip. I hope to join the fight some day.

Well, that's my :twocents:... Peace, Love, and Ceph Conservation

Sushi and Sake (but hold the Tako-Yaki)

John

No kidding?! I could have sworn she was German or from some other European nation... I should read the bios! :P


You know, I get that a lot. Steve thought I was German even after I met him in person, right up until I told him I was from the States. Must be ze akzent. :roll:

Oh Ya, Tintenfisch. Dat Minn-a-SO-tah accent gets me in da wurst trouble sometimes, too, ya know. Folks think I'm from Scanda-HOO-via. You becha.

:lol:

Oh, fer dumb! :wink:

Doc,

Saw your doco on Discovery the other day and loved it mate (Architeuthis?).

You know you are going to have slings and arrows directed at you but you do have your (silent, till now) supporters.

There are those of us out there who share the thrill of your successes and shed a tear at your dissapointments. You will never know.

Fight the good fight mate.

From a bloke who used to catch blue ringed octopii with a net made from fly wire mesh and a coathanger in bare feet at 8 years old :bonk: The rings were the lure! (ok, I'm an Aussie)

Neil.

Thanks Neil
Cheers
O

Steve et al,

Have you all seen this http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A57139-2003May14.html 90% of the BIG fish has disappeared! Sad. Why can't we just farm fish only ? :(
Last night on TV, they were interviewing some US fishermen and they said that the US is already not going into the deep waters and that problem was with fishing practices of other countries. I guess its easy to blame others but I wonder if folks down under can comment on this.

cheers.

Here's another article on that:

Study reveals plunge in big fish numbers (http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=20030514-014438-1306r)

it would be nice, but i cant imagine that its practical for some of the bigger fish like tuna or a shark...

it would be nice, but i cant imagine that its practical for some of the bigger fish like tuna or a shark...

....the big question is "do we really need to eat tuna and shark?". If fish is on the menu (and to me they all taste the same) then can we not eat some cultured substitute?

Not coming down hard on anyone at all, but I don't think we need to eat everything simply because it is there or because we can catch it, especially when cultured substitutes taste the same (I am a heavy smoker though [as close as I'll ever get to becoming a vegetarian], so cardboard and crayfish have the same culinary appeal for me).
O

shark i really cant comment too much on, its nothing special, you would have to ask in the direction of asia.... as for tuna, i really cant think of something that could be a replacement and also could be farm raised... when i say tuna, i mean yellowfin, i dont think its cost effective for me to try bluefin anytime soon....

This morning's Los Angeles Times comes with a very grim headline: "Seas Being Stripped of Big Fish, Study Finds." 90% of giant tuna, marlin, swordfish and other large species, are now gone. The study is the result of a 10-year survey, reported in the latest issue of Nature.

We've screwed things up but good.

Clem

And of course when a population booms in its last final desperate effort to restore numbers (OK, that was anthropomorphic - but stocks do tend to increase just before they crash) it's very difficult to convince people that the species is really in trouble, since they're pulling in record catches.
I believe this is the case with the American Lobster (Homarus americanus) on the East Coast / New England at present, augmented by a severe outbreak of shell disease.

And of course when a population booms in its last final desperate effort to restore numbers...it's very difficult to convince people that the species is really in trouble, since they're pulling in record catches.

Excellent point. The recent uptick in cod stocks off the coast of Massachussetts has been seized upon by opponents of strict regulation, as a pretext for the resumption of large-scale (re: industrial) cod-fishing.

I believe this is the case with the American Lobster (Homarus americanus) on the East Coast / New England at present, augmented by a severe outbreak of shell disease.

...and by the sadly common practice of "scrubbing" the roe off of egg-carrying females. Occasionally, an offender is caught in the act, or with scrub-brushes dotted with roe , but there's too much coastline, not enough wardens and way too many violators. Stories of shotgun-toting lobstermen guarding their buoys and traps may be apocryphal, but they do capture the mood.

Clem

....the big question is "do we really need to eat tuna and shark?". If fish is on the menu (and to me they all taste the same) then can we not eat some cultured substitute?

Not coming down hard on anyone at all, but I don't think we need to eat everything simply because it is there or because we can catch it, especially when cultured substitutes taste the same (I am a heavy smoker though [as close as I'll ever get to becoming a vegetarian], so cardboard and crayfish have the same culinary appeal for me).
O

I believe many people -- at least, those in the western world -- eat fish not so much for its taste as for its health benefits. Eliminating those species which are reputed to have a dangerously high mercury content, most "fatty" fish (e.g., salmon) are high in Omega-3 and known to be excellent in reducing LDL cholesterol. There have even been studies seeming to indicate that Omega-3 may be effective in the treatment of manic-depression.

Omega-3 is available as a dietary supplement (softgel or liquid), but I think even in that form it must be derived from a fish source. If a good vegetarian source of Omega-3 can be isolated in the future, so much the better -- the resulting conservation of fish would be most desirable, not to mention the economic advantage (I don't know about NZ, but fish is pricey in my part of the world).

Till then -- for better or worse -- :goldfish: will probably continue to be a preferred entrée for health-conscious diners.

Me

PS to Steve-O': Get rid of those cancer sticks -- NOW! That is not a suggestion, Doctor! (We need you to be around for a long, long time :) )

Tani, i think you give people too much credit (as im about to do the opposite) on why they eat fish.... i think a lot of people eat fish occasionally to break the monotany of beef/chicken/pork... which is just as good of a reason as the health benefits, afterall variety is good... i think the fact that it is good for you only makes it easier to take the fish course (obviously were not talking anything fried here - despite how tasty it can be).... i think youre right about the omega 3 (and omega 7 is also significant, at least i think) coming just from fish sources, but im not sure how an engineered suppliment would come out, a is the case with most things mother nature has been in the kitchen a tad bit longer and knows a few things we dont.... i think a vegetarian taking those suppliments seems a little odd, afterall the fish is still dead and youre still ingesting the end result.... unless its a religous thing, i dont get vegetarians...we have the teeth to eat a variety of things and are usually healthier when we do.... you can eat healthy without avoiding anything as long as you use a little sense...

as for the cost of fish, i think it all depends on where you are...obviously inland and places where cos of living are higher, you are going to pay more... having lived in several spots along the coast, i can say in general that you can find decent priced fish... actually in the grocery stores here in charlotte you can find great prices on farm raised salmon and yellowfin... yes i know its been frozen but like everyone knows, a chunk of all fish is frozen at some point (on the boat)

in regards to Steve's cigarettes, everyone has their vices.. if you dont, im a little suspicious of you (by vices i dont limit myself to something that may be bad for you, just anything you enjoy)... i am against people trying to save other people from themselves...steve is a grown man, and intelligent one at that, hes capable of making his own choices... i know id raise hades if someone told me not to drink a beer while i read a book in the evenings because its not good for my liver (ignoring the heart benefit)... as long as the smoke doesnt get blown in my face, let him do whatever makes him happy....

Hiya Kiboko --

I hear what you're saying. First of all, let me make it clear that I love fish (to eat as well as to study/admire). I would gladly fight a grizzly bear for a good salmon steak, and my ethnic background (by nature and nurture) has imprinted me with a fondness for anything fishy and smoked which fits on a bagel with cream cheese -- lox, sturgeon, sable, pickled herring, whitefish salad, etc. -- not to mention that elusive species, Gefilte brooklynensis. :wink:

What I was referring to was Steve-O's comment: "I don't think we need to eat everything simply because it is there or because we can catch it" -- which sounded to me like an indictment against eating fish in general. (Steve-O', please correct me if that isn't what you meant.) The point I was making is that there is a definite advantage to including fish in one's diet, and not just because it is there and we can catch it.

BTW, many years ago my son had a friend whose parents were Jains of Gujarati (Indian) descent. His mom, Ulka, and I used to hang out together when our kids played, and -- by contrast with some of the more strident Anglo vegetarians -- she never got preachy or made a big deal about her religion's strict dietary rules, though she followed them faithfully herself. Wherever we went, Ulka found something to eat and didn't allow her vegetarianism to restrict where we took our kids. When we went to McDonald's, for example, she and her son would have french fries and a salad. That doesn't seem like a very balanced meal, but I knew that when they got home she would be making a healthy and delicious Indian vegetarian meal for her family.

The only time Ulka called attention to her diet was once at a Chinese restaurant, where the veggie plate she ordered turned out to have a fried egg on it. In India, Jains do not normally eat eggs, but in India the chickens are often free-range and some of the eggs are fertilized. I explained to her that around here most of the eggs were factory-farmed and thus unlikely to be fertilized, and she accepted that and ate the egg with a clear conscience.

The upshot was that when I was around Ulka I automatically ordered (ovo-lacto) vegetarian food myself. She never lectured me about it, but because she was so sincere in her own faith, I voluntarily did so out of respect for her. (I was also rewarded once with a delicious home-cooked Gujarati lunch at her apartment, which was so good that I commented, "If I could cook that way every day, I'd be a vegetarian too!")

Regarding the price of fish: Oddly, though Noo Yawk is a port city (and Brooklyn's Sheepshead Bay is a legendary haven for fishermen, with numerous seafood restaurants), the culinary gifts of the sea are uniformly expensive here. Some foods more than others -- I seldom have lobster more than once or twice a year. On the other hand, go up along the coast to Plymouth, Massachusetts and seafood is far less pricey. I don't know what the difference is, as the waters are basically the same. That's just the way it is.

Vis-à-vis Steve-O's smoking: Rest assured, I don't go around randomly trying to "save other people from themselves", and I don't complain about smoking unless (a) as you say, they are blowing it in my face; or (b) they are doing so in a clearly-marked non-smoking area. However, when it comes to my friends -- people who mean something to me personally (and I consider my TONMO buddies in that category, even though we haven't met face to face) -- I reserve the right to be a bit of a "Jewish/Catholic Mother" if I feel they're endangering themselves. Once I've given my opinion, however, I don't nag -- it's up to them whether or not they want to listen to my advice. So my lighthearted-but-serious comments to Our Man in New Xenaland are offered out of genuine concern rather than just being a pest.

And yes, I definitely have vices -- they're just hazardous to the arteries (and waistline) rather than the lungs. (Where is that ice cream emoticon now that I need one? :wink: )

:beer: = :D

smoking = :yuck:

Dieting in the depths,
Tani

I think I can solve this whole dilemma for everybody...
I eat fish because I like the taste. same goes for other meats and vegetables...but there is some concern about the health benefits...I mean, the mercury content of predatory fish, scabies in cattle (mad cow)...etc...while I was reading this thread, the solution came to me quite clearly:
Lets eat Vegetarians.

Seriously...they exercise regularily (free range), eat well (kobe beef), and are very lean (90 % fat free). I don't think you can find a healthier dish than some nice vegetarian kabobs with orange bell peppers and a nice bottle of chianti...
don't you think???
Greg

Lets eat Vegetarians.

Seriously...they exercise regularily (free range), eat well (kobe beef), and are very lean (90 % fat free). I don't think you can find a healthier dish than some nice vegetarian kabobs with orange bell peppers and a nice bottle of chianti...
don't you think???
Greg

You forgot the fava beans....

:twisted:

You know, I just never cared for fava beans...and I like brussel sprouts...go figure!
Greg

You know, I just never cared for fava beans...and I like brussel sprouts...go figure!

Just goes to show, you meet everyone on TONMO!! I've never met anyone else who openly admits to eating Brussel sprouts and to actually liking them!! :D :D :D

On the other hand I NEVER eat beans or any of their relatives (espec peanuts!!) course that has a lot to do with the fact that I stop breathing when I eat them :shock:

cheers

J

Hey Jean! Perhaps we should form our own "splinter cell" of brussel sprout afficianados...I actually talked Shanlyn into eating one last month, but every one else I know just looks at me like I am crazy!
Hey...I think they taste very good!
Greg

Count me in! I am a huge fan of brussel sprouts, I enjoy them heavily steamed with carrots, with any beef or poultry dish. They're my favorite veggies. :-)

how many times does this now make that this thread has gotten a tad off topic ? :)

personally, im partial to broccoli and asparagus...

I eat anything and everything...from kitty tacos in central america to roadkill kabobs in texas...its all good! I don't dislikefava beans, just don't care for the hard texture...perhaps I have never had them cooked right???
WK, these thread seem to all have a life of their own...mutation,mutation...who knows what is next???:)
Greg

silly me.... i totally forgot that conservationists might not like fava beans either :)


:cthulhu: :heart: :beer:

Please don't lump me in with THAT crowd! Every time I see a conservationist get on the tube (and on the soapbox) I run for cover...in this day and age, it still amazes me that people can't just use common sense to dictate their actions. Case in point: (and I know I am going to get some hate mail for this) the Alaskan wilderness. Great. I know that it is there, and I know that it has oil. Right now we need oil. The locals and natives support drilling, it would be a boon for the economy. hmmm...lets drill!
We have a water shortage here (phx) and now the local conservationist board is lobbying to prevent the storage lakes from being filled because a flock of birds has nested around the perimeter of the low-filled lakes...if we allow the lakes to fill, it will kill all the little birds. OH well. Natural selection at it's finest. We humans have removed ourselves from the order of life, and that is arrogant...lets face it, we are just animals, and we should do what animals do...
Greg

Getting back to brussels sprouts, they are healthy and cute! Like li'l baby cabbages.

As for fava beans, they are the main ingredient in an Arabic dish called foul mudammas (pronounced "FOOL moo-DAH-mahss") which I absolutely adore -- and since we live in a neighborhood with an increasing Arab population, it's easy to come by around here. Only problem is that along with the Musical Fruit :band: it's made with industrial-strength fresh garlic cloves, so a 24-hour quarantine period in a room with an open window is required after eating the stuff.

The Tanster
Dept. of Environmentally Friendly Natural Gas

We have a pretty good arabic restaurant nearby...and my wife loves garlic...we shall have to try that dish! I always wondered if the beans I had eaten just weren't done right...
Greg

how many times does this now make that this thread has gotten a tad off topic ? :)


Actually, I lost count. Wanna try figuring out how many times this thread was on topic? :roflmao:


personally, im partial to broccoli and asparagus...

Broccoli and asparagus both rock! But only the florets (broccoli) and tips (asparagus). As far as I'm concerned, the stems of either veggie are tough, tasteless, and only good for composting. :yuck:

Arabic food rocks too! Plus it has something for everyone: Fattening, cholesterol-laden meat dishes that taste delicious, and heart-healthy veggie / bean dishes that taste delicious. And of course there's sahlab (anyone who hasn't tried that uniquely Mideastern dessert.... well, should). Our fave Arabic eatery around here is run by a Palestinian gourmet chef who defines the term "Earth Mother" -- her warm, effusive personality is remarkably similar to that of my late, beloved Jewish grandma. (When I see depressing news reports about the Middle East, I often think, "Why can't Jerusalem be more like Brooklyn?")

BTW, a long time ago the late Vincent Price -- before he was "the late", of course -- was on a talk show and demonstrated what he referred to as "one of the great classic recipes". You just had to steam young and slender asparagus spears, drizzle on a little extra-virgin olive oil, then fry an egg sunnyside-up, slide it onto the asparagus spears, and sprinkle with grated Parmesan or Romano cheese, fresh ground black pepper, and salt to taste. A good way to make your one-egg-per-week cholesterol limit more enjoyable.

Now that I've mentioned Vincent Price, we've got an excuse to do a graceful stream-of-consciousness segué from horror flicks to Cthulhu and back to cephs. Pretty neat, no?

Tani Banani

i was making dinner for my mom last night and had iron chef on....it was an aspargus battle and not surprisingly, iron chef sakai (french) won.... to ceph up this post, mom did wince when she say the clip of the guy pulling out a huge octo in the intro.....

I actually shrieked in horror when I saw the "octopus battle" on Iron Chef...(one of our favorites)...this chef dredges a LIVE octopus in batter and flour, then throws it into a tub of bread crumbs...poor thing is trying to clean out its eyes with a tentacle, and crawl out of the tub with the other seven...then WHAP! the chef lops off the head...yikes!
didn't care for that episode too much...
Greg

I once heard that the reason why kids dont like brussell sprouts is because when they are raw they are toxic and would make us ill if we ate them in that state.

Kids are much more sensitive to the taste from undercooked brussell sprouts and they immediately dont like them whereas us adults have maybe destroyed those relevant tatsebuds with so much alcomahol, hot curries etc that we are less sensitive...??????

Hmmm...I never heard that brussel sprouts were toxic uncooked...nothing in my literature about that either. I think it may have been an insidious plot by b.s. haters to tarnish the image of tasty brussel sprouts! For some odd reason, I like the contrast between the bitter cabbage taste and the sweetness of garlic butter.
My wife however, hates them with a passion.
Greg
p.s. but she does like cuttlefish, so that's all good! (as pets, not to eat)

how do cuttles taste anyway? i couldnt find anything in On Food and Cooking by McGee about B.sprouts being toxic but it did say the cabbage family (to which it belongs) contain mustard oils and cysteine derivatives that produce "various odiferous compounds, including hydrogen sulfide, ammonia, mercapans, and methyl sulfide" it also says cooking longer intensifies these reactions (and can even double them!) so the opposite of what colin said is more likely, although i agree with him that kids are more sensitive to certain tastes....

Oh well.. :( i did try to say that it was hear-say LOL

Anyway, cuttles taste the best out of the cephs IMO... i really think that octopus is pretty vile, maybe its just because i can only get it here in a small tin in its own ink... maybe better prep would help???

us adults have maybe destroyed those relevant tatsebuds with so much alcomahol, hot curries etc that we are less sensitive...??????

Taste? Oh yes, I faintly remember. Distant memories.........

This must be the reason no-one under the age of 30 goes to Real Ale festivals. Tastebuds are not beneficial at those events.

I know of someone who use to combine alcomahol and brussel sprouts by dunking them in Cherry can't say I'd personally recommend it but each to there own.[/quote]

I know of someone who use to combine alcomahol and brussel sprouts by dunking them in Cherry :beer: can't say I'd personally recommend it but each to there own.

Brussel sprouts soaked in Sherry???? Yikes. that does not sound all of too good to me, and I love the little cabbages!

Yee gad, what's going on here?

evolution, tonmo style

:cthulhu: :heart: :beer:

It's been a while since we've posted here, but I received a charming fax (redirected to me) today. This is the tip of the iceberg!

Under NO CIRCUMSTANCES is anyone to respond to this. There are other things planned that would be jeopardised (bigger picture stuff).

Hate mail is something I'm used to......

As an aside, all of snapper, scallop and orange roughy are in major trouble here (effective collapse on a colossal scale). Enormous numbers of seabirds and marine mammals are also killed in nets. 'Fishing' and 'conservation' in the Antarctic is an oxymoron.

Discuss to your hearts content online, but leave it there for the time being. 'Mr O'Shea', aka 'squid man' is scheming.

http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/download.php?id=776

http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/download.php?id=777

Well, its bound to happen that people on the dark side object... its their living that it seems everyone else is targetting... its the same with fishermen in Scotland.. The stocks are dropping and they are losing jobs and all the environmentalists are pointing their fingers at them.. so its a catch 22 situation for many and these cornered animals are starting to bite!

I blame the people who are shouting and jumping up and down about the fish but have really just read the info on a pamphlet.. these so called 'rights' people have a lot to answer to... yes the stocks are being hammered but there are ways of approaching situations and many of these people just open their mouths and let their bellies rumble so i imagine that this guy Owen has had a barrage of crappy emails, phonecalls and other stuff himself and has to be seen to be proactively dealing with it... another bad situation.

The deep sea fishing has to stop.. .i hope the 'bigger picture' includes info on this :)

There are a great many things that need to be addressed, urgently, I might ad, however Steve, I trust your judgement and insight into these affairs. You speak with the voice of a giant, and with the force of our collective will. Your temperance and steely determination will, undoubtly shine through, and give those that do not see that which drives your action, a clear understanding of the work you have done, are doing, and will do in these matters. I salute you!

Most assuredly your friend;

Felix.

Give 'em HELL!!!

Steve,

"...The adventure of working in harmony with nature and all its forces."

I'm willing to bet that Mr. Symmans keeps a stuffed parrot on his shoulder.

Arrr.

Clem

Aye, and Cap'n Rick's got a cutlass up his sleeve with the industry's filthy name on it. ;)

I was interested that the orange roughy fishery has "recovered (or words to that effect) in the last decade". I'm a little disappointed, that these people didn't share or publish their project on fertility drugs for Orange Roughy! It's the only way the stock would recover in such a short time!


Not to worry Steve I'm with you, maybe we could send the writer of this off to "help" with Messie feeding trials :twisted:

J

I pity him; I really do. In a decade or so he will regret those words, and will have to live with the repercussions of his prostitution of the truth.

I only lose a little sleep in the short term.
Cheers
O

When are the roughies sexually mature? 30 - 35 years?..... so what age are the majority of the fish being caught?

When are the roughies sexually mature? 30 - 35 years?..... so what age are the majority of the fish being caught?

Yep around that age, I have seen a catch landed here in Dunedin and had a two day job to measure, sex and pull the otoliths from them. The majority seemed to be mature BUT and it's a big but the nets are indiscriminate and although juvenile roughies can be thrown back (no swim bladder) they are often crushed to death by the shear weight of the catch (of roughies, coral, bryozoans etc etc) it just makes me :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x

It's not even that nice a fish to eat...... very bland, I know this from the days when I was a wee person & got it plonked in front of me. Since I have learned about it and had a wee rant it is no longer served in our house!!!

J

All you Steinbeck fans out there ever heard of Cannery Row? Its in Monterey, California, and is now the site of the Monterey Bay Aquarium (http://www.mbayaq.org). They will tell you that the sardine fishing of the early 20th century made a HUGE dent in the population of fish in Monterey Bay. The recovery has yet to really happen.

Avast ye! Overfishing be a harsh mistress....

John

I know of someone who use to combine alcomahol and brussel sprouts by dunking them in Cherry :beer: can't say I'd personally recommend it but each to there own.

Back when I was in college and the Noo Yawk drinking age was 18, one of the classiest -- and most delicious -- party treats was canned pineapple chunks marinated in anisette. The only problem was that it was easy to start eating them like candy and lose track of how much alcomahol you were actually consuming.... I can only imagine how many party guests lost their lunch (or their virginity) after an hour or two of nibbling on Pineapple Anisette Delight.

For Steve-O': Seriously, I am all for your conservation efforts, but I can't help wondering.... if you can't eat farmed fish because of the PCBs, you can't eat orange roughy, sardines, or lobster because of overfishing, you can't eat tuna, swordfish, or halibut for both of the above reasons, you can't eat bivalves because of domoic acid and/or red tides, you can't eat shrimp because of cholesterol, etc., etc., etc., what seafood (if any) is left for us to eat? And all this is going on while doctors are telling us to have at least one serving of fish per week because the Omega-3 is good for our hearts.

Could somebody please post a list of fish and seafood that are OK to eat? At this point it will be a lot easier than listing what we're not supposed to have.

Very perplexed,
Tani

Tani,

Check the Moneterey Bay Aquarium's "seafood watch" page. Its can be found at http://www.mbayaq.org/cr/seafoodwatch.asp . Its a conservation-friendly seafood page.

John

Tani,

Check the Moneterey Bay Aquarium's "seafood watch" page. Its can be found at http://www.mbayaq.org/cr/seafoodwatch.asp . Its a conservation-friendly seafood page.

John

Thanks, John, this is a great source. Unfortunately, while it covers other types of pollution, it doesn't appear to deal with mercury or PCBs. For example, they give a "green light" to Halibut, though I've read in another source that Halibut's safety is questionable due to the PCB content.

It would be good to find a PCB/mercury content fish list and then cross-reference it with the Seafood Watch list. Any suggestions?

Domo arigato,
Tani

I'll keep my eyes peeled

Sushi and Sake,

John

Evil monkeys. Yes, squid are good, and they shouldn't have gaffed it... but these PETA (People Eating Tasty Animals) people are just insane! Hate mail's a stupid thing... Steve, I doubt they're worth replying to. Don't waste words on morons!

(I like getting indignant!)

I don't know if this is the right place to post this, but here goes:

This is a recent news story which is a follow-up on an earlier news story, part of a cautionary tale about what happens when a non-native species is introduced into an ecosystem (you Aussies know about this already with those Cane Toads).

In this case the invaders are of a near-Lovecraftian nature, and their recurring appearance in various scattered locations is reminiscent of '50s horror flicks. Presented for your approval: The Curious Case of Frankenfish....

http://aolsvc.news.aol.com/news/article.adp?id=20030924035909990001&_mpc=news%2e10%2e1

http://www.cnn.com/2002/TECH/science/09/24/critters.maryland.snakehead/

[Tony, please clean up that first link, which I hope works 'cause it's an AOL story]

you Aussies know about this already with those Cane Toads

we Kiwi's know a bit about it too, what with rabbits, hedgehogs, stoats, weasels, possums, ferrets, salmon, trout, carp not to mention sheep, cows, dogs, cats, starlings, blackbirds..........the list goes on :(

J

No! Not the snakehead!!

Its the apocalypse! Only with scales!

:lol:

John

:shock: ...

Activists Claim Japan Dolphin Hunts Cruel (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20031030/ap_on_re_as/japan_dolphin_kill_2)

:x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x

I just love the bit about "dolphin hunts have been part of local culture for 400 years". Culture?

I want to hit something right now.

Humungous Squid? Nuh - not at all appetising.

Prodigious Squid - has a certain ring to it.

MEGASQUID -now we are talking!!!

Who said yours is bigger than mine? My Websters is about 5" thick.

I'll have to delve deeper into this matter.

How about "HOLY CRAP, THAT'S ONE BIG SQUID!"

Or perhaps, "The squid approximately half the size of New Zealand"

Or maybe even "Le squid de enourmous"

Who knows? Maybe Megateuthis way-bigger-than-your-puny-excuse-for-a-squid,-ha-ha-in-your-face

Quote:
Humungous Squid? Nuh - not at all appetising.

Prodigious Squid - has a certain ring to it.

MEGASQUID -now we are talking!!!

Who said yours is bigger than mine? My Websters is about 5" thick.

I'll have to delve deeper into this matter.


How about "HOLY CRAP, THAT'S ONE BIG SQUID!"

Or perhaps, "The squid approximately half the size of New Zealand"

Or maybe even "Le squid de enourmous"

Who knows? Maybe Megateuthis way-bigger-than-your-puny-excuse-for-a-squid,-ha-ha-in-your-face

How about "oh that wee squid, you shoulda seen it's Mum!" :twisted:

J