:shock: ...

:x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x

I just love the bit about "dolphin hunts have been part of local culture for 400 years". Culture?

I want to hit something right now.

It is a very sick world in which we live (the photographers are the good guys!)!

http://www.stormpages.com/published/sperm/

All the 'accidents' with the nets might actually piss me off even more. At least there's a point to the dolphin slaughter (****ed up as it might be).

:x :( :x

It is a very sick world in which we live (the photographers are the good guys!)!

http://www.stormpages.com/published/sperm/

As long as there are decent people like the ones who rescued this beautiful creature, there is indeed hope for the world!

Tani

An Antarctic iceberg the size of Jamaica broke in two! And both halves are dragging across the ocean floor!

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1068041214750_34/?hub=SciTech

Imagine the bioluminescent cephalopods scooting away as fast as they can!

Melissa

do two rhode islands make a new zealand?

An Antarctic iceberg the size of Jamaica broke in two! And both halves are dragging across the ocean floor!

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1068041214750_34/?hub=SciTech


Uh-oh, eventually this may not be good news for those of us who live in coastal areas.

do two rhode islands make a new zealand?

A New Zealand NORTH Island maybe :lol: The MAINLAND is bigger :lol: :lol:

Actually NZ has the fourth largest EEZ in the world :grad: :madsci: (Todays bit of useless information!!)
THink of all the potentially undiscovered cephs out there :shock:

J

[Actually NZ has the fourth largest EEZ in the world :grad: :madsci: (Todays bit of useless information!!)
THink of all the potentially undiscovered cephs out there :shock:


Here I go sounding stupid again, but what's an EEZ?

Hiya Tani - it's basically a management term - stands for 'Exclusive Economic Zone'. Means you can't come inside 200 miles from the NZ mainland (and offshore islands) and start drilling for oil, fishing for whatever, or doing whatever you like without Government permission/permit to do so. Outside the EEZ is International waters (and seabed) - that's pretty much open season.

... and that's a rather simplistic, somewhat cynical definition of an EEZ
:wink:

It is a very sick world in which we live (the photographers are the good guys!)

Steve (and others)

Dudes, have any of you ever worked at a wildlife refuge? Well, a few years ago I managed to intern at Merritt Island Wildlife refuge in Florida, and what I saw about the effects of pollution made me shudder. My bosses and acquaintances ocasionally give me s**t about cutting up those little plastic rings that hold soda cans (or the occasional four-pack of Cup Ozeki sake) together. I show them photos of seabirds, fish, and such actually having those things wrapped around their necks. Its bad. Hell, sea turtles eat plastic bags thinking that they're eating jellies. Seals around here get caught in nets, or come up to the highway during catastrophic molt season... Its sad... :cry:

Sushi and Sake (from a recycleable bottle)

John

Here I go sounding stupid again, but what's an EEZ?

Sorry Tani, you don't sound stupid..............it's my fault for forgetting that not everyone speaks "managementese" :oops: :oops:


J

Perhaps of interest:

http://www.ecofish.com/

More potential great news for marine mammals:

Defence bill erodes marine protection (http://www.nature.com/nsu/031110/031110-10.html)

I was going to call this legislation depressingly callous, but then it occurred to me how much the Marine Mammal Protection Act has eroded America's ability to defend herself over the past 30 years ( :roll: ).

I'm not sure if the "loosening of restrictions on the sound-generating devices with which [oceanographers] conduct undersea geological studies" is much of a mitigating factor.

Here's a transcript of a lovely letter published in Letters to the Editor, 'Seafood New Zealand, November 2003':

Dear Editor,
A recent 'Sunday' doco on tele had me amused at first. Here was Steve O'Shea, a giant squid expert raving over a carcass. He was climbing on it, tasting it, poking and proding it. It was almost carnal and darn near necrophilial. So wound up spiritually is he with these denizens of the deep he took two years to get over the death of a larvae [sic]. Two years! What ever, I thought. The guy's certainly passionate about his subject and I have no problem with that at all.

However, his parting shot on the documentary was to call all fishermen criminals.

He then went on to say we should all be locked up in prison for what we're doing "out there". That made my blood boil. Her indoors [?sic - I guess he means his wife], on seeing my state of apoplexy passed a comment along the lines of "Steady dear, you'll spill my wine."

I found O'Shea's statements irresponsible, incorrect and offensive. His words not what I would expect from a scientific, and balanced, mind. It also highlights his complete lack of knowledge regarding the fishing industry and the environment.

Steve O'Shea has spoken out loudly and irrationally in the past about our industry. Talk about biting the hand that feeds him. If it wasn't for the fishing industry he wouldn't have received the hundred or so specimens that he has. I have personally brought home several but I won't be any more.

Twice bitten, twice shy. Steve O'Shea, his mate over in Oz at that university and Discovery Channel can go to he**. Others, perhaps National Geographic will gladly take them off my hands.

Chris Carey
Fisherman

Hmmmm. :goofysca: Unbalanced :grad: and :bugout:
:thumbsdo:

OUCH! :shock:


Never mind Steve, you got my vote we lunatics have to stick together!

J

Get a lot of fan mail like that? I'd frame 'em all.

("tasting it"? :shock: )

:arr:

... I'll certainly frame that one, when I get a copy of the magazine. Pity we only have plural :feet:; a single foot would be a more appropriate response to this nonsense.

I call him a criminal ... and he got nasty, hurting my feelings by :yelling: to all and sundry that I'm an unbalanced :madsci: . People believe this sort of thing you know .... when it's written there in black and white. So it was written, so it becomes gospel.

Unbalanced means unpredictable :mrgreen:

Tsk tsk tsk.

Yes, a single foot, being applied to a particular body part, that would best express my thoughts on this. :mrgreen:

Fisherman Carey is welcome to come here and expound on his position on this matter....

Yes, a single foot, being applied to a particular body part, that would best express my thoughts on this. :mrgreen:

Fisherman Carey is welcome to come here and expound on his position on this matter....

Ooh, that'd be so much fun! Chris could tell us how he's actually doing the world a valuable service by removing all those pesky marine organisms from the sea, thus making room for us to dump more of our garbage in there. :D :indiffer:

There was a short piece about overfishing on the BBC World News this morning. It went along the lines of "the world is running out of fish" and mentioned cod specifically. Drastic restrictions on cod fishing in the North Sea may be on the horizon.

Melissa

They really need to be less optimistic about the benefits of simply 'reducing' the catch. Unless I've been comatose, the cod moratorium imposed in 1992 has yet to revitalise the industry in Newfoundland. Maybe the seals really are to blame, after all (sarcasm, in case you were wondering). Here's a one-year-old article from the BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/2580733.stm) which talks a little about that. Yeah, we dropped that ball.

How much work has been done to assess the effect of climate change in all of this? Sure, the water is getting warmer. But what about salinity? I remember reading that the salinity of the West Atlantic was falling rather drastically in the higher latitudes (of both hemispheres). Yes? If so, might this have negative short-term implications, in addition to the potentially catastrophic long-term changes in circulation it could eventually cause? How stenohaline are these things?

What about increasing levels of UV radiation? Might not be too good for the little fishies (http://www.unh.edu/news/archive/2001/january%20/sk_20010125uvb.html).

:goldfish: :boohoo:

Here's a transcript of a lovely letter published in Letters to the Editor, 'Seafood New Zealand, November 2003':

Here was Steve O'Shea, a giant squid expert raving over a carcass. He was climbing on it, tasting it, poking and proding it. It was almost carnal and darn near necrophilial.

Just when you think things can't get worse you get accused of necrophiliac tentacle porn!!! :bugout:

You'd think people would get bored with making themselves look silly but clearly not yet ;)

Emps

You'd think people would get bored with making themselves look silly but clearly not yet

I rarely pass up an opportunity.

:bonk:

The scottish fishing industry has had some recent news on the subject http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/3333693.stm

"Our fishermen have bent over backwards to conserve fish stocks by halving the size of the fleet.

"Instead of UK Fishing Minister Ben Bradshaw and his Scottish counterpart Ross Finnie demanding a reward for Scotland, all our fishing communities have received is another kick in the teeth."

They really need to be less optimistic about the benefits of simply 'reducing' the catch. Unless I've been comatose, the cod moratorium imposed in 1992 has yet to revitalise the industry in Newfoundland. Maybe the seals really are to blame, after all (sarcasm, in case you were wondering). Here's a one-year-old article from the BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/2580733.stm) which talks a little about that. Yeah, we dropped that ball.

How much work has been done to assess the effect of climate change in all of this? Sure, the water is getting warmer. But what about salinity? I remember reading that the salinity of the West Atlantic was falling rather drastically in the higher latitudes (of both hemispheres). Yes? If so, might this have negative short-term implications, in addition to the potentially catastrophic long-term changes in circulation it could eventually cause? How stenohaline are these things?

What about increasing levels of UV radiation? Might not be too good for the little fishies (http://www.unh.edu/news/archive/2001/january%20/sk_20010125uvb.html).

:goldfish: :boohoo:

Dr um....., all rather valid points that certain parties within the fishing industry would seize upon as the 'real reason' behind collapse of fisheries. Point the finger at industry pumping crap into the atmosphere, or at things beyond human control (if temperature/salinity changes are part of some longer-term natural glacial/interglacial oscillation), but don't point it at 'us', not at overfishing or 'our' fishing techniques.

I think the cod would have moved and new grounds would be being exploited if the change were purely environmental; things that aren't fixed to the rock have a habit of moving when conditions aren't right. Nevertheless, climate change, increased UV, changes in sea temperatures and salinity will all play some part in changes in fish species (and everything else) population dynamics.

You are looking at things at a scale an order of magnitude greater than present fisheries management.

I think the cod would have moved and new grounds would be being exploited if the change were purely environmental; things that aren't fixed to the rock have a habit of moving when conditions aren't right.


Have to disagree there Steve O. Most environmental niches are fully exploited hence there are no gaps for newcomers (unless they force another species out) - I doubt the cod would or could move. And the assumption is that there are other areas that provide the same environmental conditions . . . . if there were the cod would already be there. The fossil history shows that species usually go extinct when environments change, rather than adapt to new conditions (at least at the rate required to cope with the current changes).

Quick 180° here; duly noted and in agreement M; M knows many orders of magnitude more about these things than O.

Omega-3 is available as a dietary supplement (softgel or liquid), but I think even in that form it must be derived from a fish source. If a good vegetarian source of Omega-3 can be isolated in the future, so much the better -- the resulting conservation of fish would be most desirable, not to mention the economic advantage (I don't know about NZ, but fish is pricey in my part of the world).


http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?chanID=sa003&articleID=0009C53E-5EF3-1021-9EF383414B7F0000

Definitely more fish friendly, but something tells me people would complain about this....

Who would complain about eating mice? Mmmm mouse kebab :P

Not me! Grind it up, and it's all the same.

Mmmmm... Souris a la creme...

Souris and Sake,

John

Mouse mousse :P

Not sure a fish oily mousse is a good idea....

Interesting. Personally, I tend to subscribe to the belief that the "temperature/salinity changes are part of some longer-term natural glacial/interglacial oscillation." That is not to say man doesn't play a part, but I believe we consistently underestimate the power of nature to cleanse itself, proliferate itself, and adapt itself. I am almost sure I am the only Republican here, but just thought I'd throw my two-cents into the ring.

FWIW, I recently read a book entitled "The Hungry Ocean." Essentially, it is a book written by a woman who is a retired swordboat captain. She mentions in passing that, in seventeen years of fishing, she honestly has never witnessed a depletion/reduction in the number/size of swordfish in the Atlantic, off the east coast. She couldn't figure out what all of the "fuss" was about. Yes, I realize she may be biased, but it was interesting to read. Either way, the book wasn't about fish populations, but rather her experiences as a fisherwoman.

Here's a rather unfortunately titled article from Nature:

Climate findings let fishermen off the hook (http://www.nature.com/nsu/040301/040301-8.html)

If anything, I figure that reduction in fish stocks due to environmental factors would place fishermen under even greater pressure. The distribution of blame is irrelevant, isn't it? Except, perhaps, that it makes providing financial relief to fishermen more palatable if they are less responsible for their predicament.

Just a quicky for the local audience (as in fellow kiwis). There should, I stress should, be a piece on the 'Holmes show' next week (19-23 April; date TBD) on conservation matters, squid research (and you'll get to see some footage of the broad squid), and a few other things. It's been bumped one time already (as in the 14th, not because someone stubbed a toe in downtown Auckland, but apparently one doctor stabbed another); the latest date includes a live broadcast from Kelly Tarlton's Underwater World and Antarctic Encounter.

Sorry 'bout the link (remember, I'm a Luddite). Not everyone agrees with what is said therein, but I'm used to that. I think we'll have the proof soon enough. I'm happy with most things therein, but I never said anything to the effect whale numbers will not increase because there's not enough food.

Watch this space! (and those are not horns growing from my brow, although some might think so; it's an unfortunate artifact of bottom flash lighting)

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/storydisplay.cfm?thesection=news&thesubs ection=&storyID=3563375&reportID=162576

looks to me like the guy in graphics dept is the brother of a trawler and superimposed the horns!!!

Is the 'groper' a fish or was it supposed to be grouper?

As long as you're happy with the rest of it then its a good article, they always have to screw up one or two bits, its in their contracts i think

Is the 'groper' a fish or was it supposed to be grouper?

Groper - wreckfish: Polyprionidae
Grouper - tropical grouper: Serranidae (Epinephelinae)
:oshea: groping specialist

Thanks M. Hey, inside info, names online even. Another Architeuthis was caught several weeks ago, Sealord vessel, destined for us .... until Sealords said 'nope, nuttin going to that so-and-so in Auckland that criticises everything we do'. So, frozen squid remains in a freezer down in Dunedin, where it can remain until somewhere freezes over. MFish observers even saved it, earmarked for us.

They think it hurts me. It's 200 hours I don't have to spend pickling one down! :party:

:x WARNING! Pardon the Rant! You have been warned! :x

There is and should be a legitimate concern over the depletion of all vertebrate and invertebrate aquaculture world wide. As well as the long and short term causality. Anyone who does not think that both the natural occurring shifts in temperature, salinity, and chemical composition of the oceans (in many cases which are a result of industrialization) as well as the man made effects of pollution and overfishing, must have their head stuck in the sand.

In the late 90's when Architeuthis specimens began to make their appearance more often in deep trawlers nets it became rather obvious that things had become even worse. When the food supply for cetaceans is diminished it will not be long before the impact reverberates throughout the food chain. The cause and effect ripples in both directions. If you do a quick search on the Internet you will notice that Illex are and have been massively overfished.

This too is the case with the Chambered Nautilus. In the Philippines, for example, there are places where these wonderful creatures that once were plentiful are now nonexistent. The over-fishing for both food and the shell have obliterated the population in too many places in the Indo-Pacific region. If you look in E-Bay you will notice that there are too many of these shells available and at least a third of them are juvenile specimens.

Sad to sad to consider the consequences... if such activities go unchecked. Thank you Steve and all of you for standing up and saying what needs to be said.

CjB


FYI: http://www.squidfish.net/index.shtml an interesting site/forum if you have not viewed it already

http://www.fis.com/falklandfish/fifdrese.htm

Unfortunately, I wouldn't look for any changes in the human condition...we have effectively removed ourselves (or so we think) from the collective world around us, taking what we need when we need it...this attitude is glorified in the press and media (watch Swan, for instance) and touted as being the "way" to act.
Sometimes, you just wish that everyone would take a deep breath, calm down for a minute, and watch some little fish swim in a creek.
We move too fast. Maybe why everything seems to being going to hell in a handbasket...
We want everything, and we want it NOW ! I feel sorry for all of the other creatures (including calm people) that are being red-flagged at the moment.
Overwhelming.
greg

was teaching some kids last week about raptors and i showed them a pic of a golden eagle and asked them to tell me what it was... one of the kids dads said it was a....................................... ferret, and he meant it... what chance have the kids got if thats a dad shouting out an answer

Colin, we get that kind of thing all the time. I'm always being asked if fish are animals...or "why do you call these fish animals?" the next top question we get is................"can you eat it?" followed by " would that make good bait?"

We have touch pools which are generally not left unattended by the staff. But one day I had to deal with a kid who had banged his head on a tank window (don't ask!) when I turned round one of the Dad's had stuck his comb into an Anemone :x He wanted to see it close up but didn't want to touch it :x :x and anyway "it's only a sea thing isn't it?" :x :x :x :x :x :x :x Poor thing was dying of a ruptured gut so we had to euthanise it :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x

J

:x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x

:cry:

Its just sad. . .

jean,

reminds me of a sign a local safari park had on a fence...

'dont chase the animals or birds'
what kingdom do birds belong to then??? ;)

jean,

reminds me of a sign a local safari park had on a fence...

'dont chase the animals or birds'
what kingdom do birds velong to then??? ;) :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao::roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:
J

http://www.greenpeace.org/international_en/campaigns/intro?campaign_id=461050

.... it begins. Watch this space!

More good news for fisheries in NZ (not); the article came with several graphics that are not in the online version).

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/storydisplay.cfm?storyID=3568002&thesect ion=feature&thesubsection=&thesecondsubs ection=&reportID=162576

Some good news

We've been instrumental in stopping one development that had sought resource consent to effectively strip mine a beach of its sediments for land fill!

One battle down, a few more pending.

Another new species discovered, with its environment being destroyed by trawlers!

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5237628/?GT1=3584

Sir Steve :D , off the back of your postings I have become Cyberactive.
Greenpeace' Cyberactive community now allows even the most restrictive lifestyle the opportunity to help combat greed & ignorance :x even if it's only to play a small role.

so if anyone is even slightly concerned for our planets future go take a look at Greenpeace' site.

Also, over the years I'd formed an impression of NZ being very eco-aware
& a guiding light to other less responsible nations but it appears they are all the same & some gas has been let out of my normally over inflated balloon :(

sorry if I've bored anyone or killed an 8 page topic.

Nope, not killed at all. The thread is fast becoming a general conservation-related thread, as opposed to the hate-mail thread it started off being, but here's poor Barry Weeber, NZ Forest & Bird, a very respectable fellow, being slammed in the media also.

We're a happy bunch down here in NZ; everyone gets along; real box of birds stuff!

It follows, with a 60% reduction in catch, that there'll be an equivalent drop in seal catches ... and that's exactly what has been observed; it is not through good management that less seals are being caught!

Barry gets my vote as environmentalist of the year!

http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,2947854a7693,00.html

Sigh

http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,2942275a7693,00.html

Clean, green, eco-friendly New Zealand.

Our job is to catch fish. We don't like killing the mammals and birds that live in the environment with them, and most fishers today are extremely environmentally aware.

"And please note that we consider 'killing' to exclude starvation or other effects leading indirectly to mortality. We appreciate that mammals and birds represent a minority of species living in the marine environment, and if not catching them in our nets scores us the good PR which allows us to 'harvest' as much of the rest of that precious biomass as we want, then obviously we're all for that."

:arr:

sounds like the the same dimwits who are trying to exterminate all life in the North Sea.
being realistic, apart from well policed conservation areas we can kiss most of it goodbye. The general population appear more concerned with who's shagging who in Hollywood.
The sea bass population in the North Sea has exploded since nursery areas were designated, but no one seems to want to take that extra step to apply the same approach to the North sea as a whole, they just keep faffing around with catch quotas, as fish stocks decline quotas shrink & so forth.
On a happy note the puffin population is booming due to there being little predation by cod on sandeels, but this will be put right by the Norwegians concerted effort to rid our waters of sandeels to make animal feed.

Wind turbines are now out of favour as the nimbys worry & wring their hands about property prices & the effect the noise may have while they're watching Eastenders & Big Brother.

sounds like the the same dimwits who are trying to exterminate all life in the North Sea.
:shock: I thought that was done already...hence me buggering off to the other side of the globe... Somebody lied to me? :x
Wind turbines are now out of favour
and that's a crying shame... (says the guy who used to live about ten miles from a nuclear plant...yeah...that does explain a few things)
as the nimbys worry & wring their hands about property prices & the effect the noise may have while they're watching Eastenders & Big Brother.
*sigh*
amen to that bruvvah!

TPOTH

After reading some of the posts I'm given to have a rant...

As a surfer I have spent a great deal of time out at Piha (Auckland west coast). I have lost count of times I have yelled at people taking bags of marine life from the intertidal. They walk around the rocks to where they can't be seen from the shore and strip mine everthing that can be removed. I can see this as I'm out in the water. It's sickening to witness. :(

I mean, I could be missing something here, but what exactly do you do with a rubbish sack full of starfish???? Asteroid soup???

All that seems to happen when I yell at them is they look sheepish and then stuff everything into a backpack and scuttle off. I'm going to go into ethnicity but, they also don't appear to be able to speak English. This, of course could just be a temporary lapse. Usually the've gone before I can get back in to confront them too (Piha has really strong rips so it can be difficult to get back in in a hurry).

Piha's pretty dangerous so all I can hope is that they get washed off the rocks and drown. I don't really mean that.....

I'd like to yell at them first.

Incidently, does any one know of a comparable forum for deep-sea fish?

As I'm just starting my PhD on Orange Roughy (Diet, food web interactions) I was thinking of starting an Orange Roughy thread here (if no one minds - given they're 'vertebrate filth' - No, I won't say who called them that). I think there is enough common ground for it to be worthwhile regardless of my obvious bias.

I'm sure you'll all let me know what you think
:P

I mean, I could be missing something here, but what exactly do you do with a rubbish sack full of starfish???? Asteroid soup???

My guess: they sell the stuff to tourists ;)

TPOTH

I mean, I could be missing something here, but what exactly do you do with a rubbish sack full of starfish???? Asteroid soup???

My guess: they sell the stuff to tourists ;)

TPOTH

Go home, you know you can't keep sleeping at the lab :P

TPOT, my apologies for neglecting your post :oops:
I can confidently report that yesterday 27 June 2004 I did present my lad with a live sandhopper for inspection, so there's life in the brown main yet (we hope)

As for nuclear energy, I perch on a fence.
It improved the fishing at Sizewell & all were delicious, just ask Maximus
my spare headhttp://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/download.php?id=2659

I don't know how long it will be online, but if you're interested in hearing another 'rant & rave' from you know who, click on the following link.

It was a live broadcast (the kind that you're prone to mix a few words up in), but in general it's pretty ok.

http://flipside.nzoom.com/flipside_detail/1,2359,279499-212-289,00.html

Way to go Steve! Looks like a great video, but it's real choppy (keeps buffering)... will try again from my other PC tomorrow, maybe will have better luck.

This brought a great big grin to my dour old mug:

Russians attack Taiwanese trawler (http://www.theadvertiser.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5936,10861660%5E1702,00.html)

Yee-haw!

:sink:

The New Zealand government has decided not to support a moratorium on bottom trawling in international waters. This is based on misinformation fed to various ministries, and pressure by the fishing industry.

I am preparing a letter to New Zealand ministers that outlines much of the misinformation spouted by a few parties. I'd like to place a draft of this letter online and call for people's comments, prior to mailing it in a few days, but don't think that this would be the most appropriate course of action. Do we have any editorial gurus online (regularly posting members only) prepared to take up the challenge of setting my clumsy, hastily written language in order? It could certainly do with a review. I will not mind if entire sections are recast. If so could you please pm me and I'll send a copy to you privately.

Thanks in anticipation
Steve

Send it my way. If you don't like my changes, you can toss them.

Melissa

Letter is off; thanks a million for that Melissa. I'll post any update when I have it.

In the meantime, here's the latest piece of industry diarrhoea.

http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/download.php?id=3337

.... remember Owen ... he's the chap that doesn't like me (how could anyone not like me???).

Anyway, he's the genius that wrote the following dribble ... (I feel my blood pressure rising!)

http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/download.php?id=3339

I just spent the last 1/2 hour reading this entire thread, and I have just a couple of things to say.

One dead squid is hardly comparable to the millions of tons of bycatch and other wasted food that could go to feed the starving mass of humanity. One of the most ridiculous demonstrations of this happens regularlily in my own little part of the world. The Salinas Valley produces 70-80% of the entire lettuce crop for the US. But is is quite routine for growers (large corporations, not individual or family farms, which are nearly extinct) to plow under [/b]entire crops because prices have fallen too low fit into the profit margins demanded by the stockholders and the tax right-off of donation is not enough to cover the loss. So not only is the food wasted, which could be used to feed the homeless, destitute and infirm, all of the irrigated water (which the area has none too much of to begin with) flushes gallons and gallons of pesticide, herbicides, and fungicides into a sanctuary already threatened with sewage hazards and golf course runoff.

The thing that I have noticed with people that cry out over the loss of life in cases like this generally don't own up to their own contribution to the dimise of life as they knew it. Whether it's the use (abuse) of petro-chemicals in all things western civilization, or the gallons of water wasted on keeping non-native, eco-threatening gardens flourishing, or the damage done to native cultures in so-called eco-tourism.

I wag this same finger at myself everyday. My sculpture nearly didn't get finished because of it. Copper is not something that is mined in a friendly way. While it's not as bad as gold, it's often the same companies that mine both. Tracing the source of metals is like trying to find a true statement in a politicians (a.k.a. lawyers) speech, so finding a supplier of a eco-friendly mined copper would be an exercise in futility. In the end though, it's like the one dead squid compared to all of the loss of life and food. It's just one. If I were doing bronze casting it would be a different story, then there would be a couple hundred of them.

If I had the courage to take myself out of this world, I would have done so a long time ago. But my biological will to live easily beats out my intellectual digust of what our species has done to the world. I gave it a good try, mentally at least, to beat it out; I couldn't do it though. Honestly, I have no hope that I will see great change in humanity in my lifetime, nor do I expect it anytime in the next 30,000 years. Our genetics are being changed before it's even understood.

How stupid are we to f**k with evolution anyway??

And do we really need to save more lives?? (I'm putting on my flack jacket now.) The root to the majority of the problems we have caused come from the fact that there are too many of us. I am not giving argument for mass suicide, genocide or other atrocities, but I do think that it's time to start facing up to the fact that we have got to cull the herd a little before it runs out of grazing range. This is a highly unpopular point of view to be sure, but one that I can inhabit a little more safetly than others because of my maleness (never heard of a male "biological clock") and a long term view of the past and future. I won't have children, and yet I try to think of what I would like my fifth, twentieth, and hundreth generation grandchilden to inherit. Certainly not the bloody mess we have created so far.

Please excuse me for this, it only comes out about once every 5 months or so. I used to be this way all of the time, but since I stopped paying attention, I haven't had much to say. For some reason in the last few months I have read the paper a couple of times, watched the news occasionally, and started reading more posts.

To end on a more positive note, I am curious what are some of the things that you do on a daily basis to lessen your impact on the planet that we love. I'll list a few of my own, and maybe we can all learn a thing or two.

-I don't shop at Walmart, eat at McDonalds, or by any more GE products
than I have to.
-I refuse bags of all kinds at every possible occasion, and state that it's
garbage before it's even used.
-I buy used and recycled as often as possible.
-I eat the last grain of rice in the bowl.
-I try to learn at least 3 things a day, and teach at least one.

BTW, I have a great recipe for brussel sprouts. Parboil a dozen or so of the little buggers, season with salt, pepper, a little thyme, a little oregano, and a little butter. Stuff them in the cavity of a season chicken and bake. Mmmmmmmmm....brussel sprout stuffed chicken....aghagahghagh....

Bully on Steve O, just remember to acknowledge your own part in it.

With dying breathe, "What was that all about." -Marlon Brando

:grad: Whew. That was a lot!
Agree with some of your points, but I do eat at fast food places if I am hungry... :D
Bummer about the ban not being upheld...crass commercialism seems to have won out down there too. Up here in the states, we lost most of our water purity and clean air controls last year (jee, thanks Pres. ) so it seems we are a little calloused.
Really thought the not-so-subtle slam of calling Steve "mr." was kind of uncalled for...what a jerk.
It is an odd "age of aquarius" isn't it???
greg

Yeah, I kinda get carried away sometimes.

Anyway, he's the genius that wrote the following dribble ...

Dr Steve,
I submit below, for your consideration, an extract from the NZ Herald, which shows just how far the gentle fisherfolk have come in attitudes since this letter was written 118 years ago:

Wholesale Destruction of Fish.

“Five hundred bundles of fish thrown over-board: call a meeting; elect a vigilance committee to protect the fish! I feel sure the fishermen are not likely to catch fish then throw them away, so I conclude the fish must have been unfit for human food. It is not to defend the parties that threw the fish away that I write this, but rather to express my surprise that men endowed with reason can think, in this nineteenth century, that five hundred bundles, or even five million bundles, can have any effect on the number of fish in the sea. Nature is so prolific that the more we catch the faster they multiply. The wheel of nature is always turning, assuming different forms, never lessening the whole one atom, but so regulated by Him that fallen man is powerless to control or affect in the least. When I think of the wonders of the deep I am in the same fix as when I think of time and distance, as revealed to us by astronomers – lost in wonder. The fact is the whole thing is beyond our power to control. In spite of all those facts I have alluded to, the Government are advised to proclaim a “close” season, thereby depriving a number of men of the means of living, and making their instruments of production worthless, in order that the next generation may not go short of fish. It is all bosh! There is selfishness at the back of it. An inquiry should be held. In conclusion, I may explain that I am not interested in catching. In fact, to take a narrow-minded, selfish view of the thing, it looks as if the close season would cause more demand; but if we look a little deeper we shall see that true prosperity is only attained by making every other industrious prosperous. Unless all the people are profitably employed, they have not the means of purchasing the wealth we are all engaged in producing. In my opinion, a “let alone” policy is the best policy to adopt, and in short time we shall all fit into the grooves for which we are adapted. One year the cry is, start fisheries, and the next year there is a howl to blot them out”.
A.S.; 15th November 1886.

(A.S. was founder of one of NZ's largest fishing companies, now based in Auckland)
:roll:

.... remember Owen ... he's the chap that doesn't like me (how could anyone not like me???).

Anyway, he's the genius that wrote the following dribble ... (I feel my blood pressure rising!)

http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/download.php?id=3339

Grrrrrrrrrrrrr! "...adventure of working in harmony with nature in all it's forces" Where's some aerated water when you need it. I can't print what I think of this.

The sheet is about to hit the fan this weekend ....

The sheet is about to hit the fan this weekend ....

/quickly reaches to turn off fan... :D

And do we really need to save more lives?? (I'm putting on my flack jacket now.) The root to the majority of the problems we have caused come from the fact that there are too many of us. I am not giving argument for mass suicide, genocide or other atrocities, but I do think that it's time to start facing up to the fact that we have got to cull the herd a little before it runs out of grazing range.

hmm.... the gene pool could use a little chlorine.

heheh yeah i know what you mean about that. The thing is... our species is out of control. We have broken free of the controlling factors which would normally limit population.

Personally, I would pinpoint the causes of this on:
1.) our social nature. this makes it possible for us to pass knowledge and behaviors not only to our peers but also to the next generation. We are constantly building on the experiences of those who came before us.
2.) our amazing adaptability. When we first spread across the world in to a variety of habitats, we developed a variety of lifestyles to cope. Natural disasters were only temporary setbacks, as became disease and famine.

these days population increase only accelerates even more because of all our advances.

Unfortunately, it's not our fault. We are just too fit to survive. We left everything else in the dust long ago.

At this rate, however, we will someday hit the ceiling and the crimes we have committed to achieve this prosperity will have be paid for.

And so it begins

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3719590.stm

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/storydisplay.cfm?storyID=3598887&thesect ion=news&thesubsection=general

A couple of errors therein, but the message is clear!

Should be some pre-recorded telly tonight.

But it's 1000m under the ocean. What harm is it doing if it's not absolutely wrecking it. Who's going to see? It's not hurting anything long-term.

So if I murder somebody it isn't a crime, just as long as nobody sees me do it and I make sure to dump the body in water that's at least 1000m deep? Cool.

...less than 5 per cent of the world's 75 per cent of ocean would be impacted.

"It would be a bit like going into the McKenzie Country and looking around at this wonderful untouched, unspoiled area and then seeing somebody had dug a vegetable garden and it was growing brussel sprouts."

What a strange thing to say. I'd be willing to bet that over 99% of the human population is concentrated into 5% or less of the available land area (i.e. 1/3 of the total area "impacted" by bottom trawling). Destroying that area would nearly wipe out humanity, but would have a negligible effect on the rest of the planet. (At first, anyway.)

The fish are disappearing, all right.

"Disappearing"? At least some of them have in fact appeared in the grocery store down the street from my house. I don't think the fate of the fish is mystifying enough to warrant the term "disappearing".

[quote]But it's 1000m under the ocean. What harm is it doing if it's not absolutely wrecking it. Who's going to see? It's not hurting anything long-term.

So if I murder somebody it isn't a crime, just as long as nobody sees me do it and I make sure to dump the body in water that's at least 1000m deep? Cool.

Pretty much, it is a challenge to argue against that level of ignorance.

...less than 5 per cent of the world's 75 per cent of ocean would be impacted.

The slope region where the roughy fishing occurs makes up 8.8% of the worlds ocean (Merrett & Haedrich, 1997). By that estimate we've impacted more than half of the available habitat. This is certainly true for New Zealand waters with 80% (probably more now) of seamounts in the New Zealand region being trawled (Clark, 1999 or 2000 can't remember which off the top of my head). Catch levels were maintained thoughout the 1990's by 'discovering' new seamounts to fish, depleting them and moving on. Currently most catches around NZ are an order of magintude or less, than historical maxima.

Around NZ the only area left is the Kermadec Rise as there is a marine reserve there, however the reserve only extends 12 miles out from the islands so I guess it's only a matter of time. From memory the TAC for orange roughy in ORH 10 (Kermadecs) is 10 tonne. Eventually someone is going to consider it worthwhile to go and see what they can get there, if they haven't already.

"It would be a bit like going into the McKenzie Country and looking around at this wonderful untouched, unspoiled area and then seeing somebody had dug a vegetable garden and it was growing brussel sprouts."

What! No sense make brain ow! Maybe we were to be so confounded by the superficial flaws that we would miss the fundamental flaws...

A better analogy for roughy fishing would be trawling for rugby fans from space using category 5 tornados. Getting rugby fans but also associated by-catch; cars, cows, sheep, dogs, trees, houses etc... Then finding that you get heaps more, and mostly rugby fans, if you send the tornados to All Black matches. Maybe you could 'fishdown' the rubgy fan biomass to a sustainable level and keep going forever... Mind, if they run out you could switch to Cricket fans, or Soccer fans, Tennis fans and so on...

http://www.asianews.it/view.php?l=en&art=1659
Soaring oil prices are threatening Hong Kong fishing industry. At US$ 53 per barrel, the price of oil is forcing many fishermen to hang up their nets and stay on dry land. Some of them have given up fishing altogether and sold their boats.
A few more $ per barrel & bottom trawling will be even more reliant on government subsidies . . . . .

My foot will get heavier on the V8 to force up consumer demand and prices!

You know, i'm sure you have got something interesting to say but your just not getting it across...

I am sure that there are some people from the fishing industry that do try to be environmentally friendly but very far from all, I would think.

As a biologocal recorder there is a HUGE difference between recording what you have just caught/killed when comapred to what you have just recorded and left untouched to live its life...

As Scotland is also a country which has heavy reliances on its fishing fleet, the vast majority of people both in the trade and out can easily see that fishing just isn't able to be sustainable.

Tell me, what actually is your relationship with the trade? I'm hoping for a fair balanced discussion, especially if it involves the share of data and findings.

Are you pro-fishing or anti-scientist???????????????????????

Once again we see the elusive teenager with a parent's computer gone wild...pay no attention to the man behind the curtain !
I would like to start a fund to buy him/her a dictionary though...in the hopes that maybe, maybe, it might learn to spell and punctuate..."if a thousand monkeys typed, for a thousand years..."

http://members.cox.net/ewaldbros/hahanet.jpg

Whew! Greg, thanks so much for getting that off my chest! Al in favore of innergated spel/gramer cecking at TONMO.com say ,, "iye!"

:neutral:

Remember the one that Steve accused of typing on his cell phone??? Priceless !
Yeah, the best thing is to burn and ignore vermin...
So, a hearty "AA'yyreee Cap'n" from me, too !

greg

Know FARE! U R VishusNmeen 2 2days yuth!!! U 2 uld!

Erk

Sir Erich ! I had no idea you had taken that electoral class :"how to techspeakgeek" !!! Hey, that is doubleplusgood !!
g

As a wise man once stated...

I am absoultely appaled and disgusted ,kids this guy is a crim and a sick man,

When you do grow up enough, please try to remember that English is a thing called a "language", and has certain set parameters...arguing your ignorance is just spitting into the breeze.
:) greg

DUEF, perhaps you would do better to remove 70-80% of the letters from everything you type. As annoying as that would normally be, I think that in your case the simplification would help. Or, at the worst, it would make your posts shorter while no less lucid. Better yet, why don't you just try using sign language?

dictionary.com (http://www.dictionary.com)
Merriam-Webster Online (http://www.m-w.com/)

My foot will get heavier on the V8 to force up consumer demand and prices!

Great! Now you pay for my dad's car's fuel bills if you don't mind.

Do_U-Eat_Fish, you seem to have a lot of time on your hands, and what sounds like a lot of disposable income.

Here's a proposition.

Swim, sail, fly, drive, bus, train, cycle, run, walk or slime to Auckland.
Come and see me.

IF what I have to say to you is rubbish then prove me wrong ... prove all of us wrong. Enrol in:

1) A research programme, or degree.
2) An English programme (I am not being nasty here, but if you took pride in what you had to say, and if you want people to take you seriously, then you have to be able to deliver your message in a coherent manner).

If I decided to play devils advocate I could support everything you are trying to say, except I could do so in a way that made sense. Come hear me out; you might learn something.

Nice turritelid fossil by the way (your pic in the gallery). Many of us collect fossils. Extinction is a sad thing. There's a lot happening these days.

Finally, Stop poisoning this site with your bitterness.
I am tolerating you out of courtesy, the same courtesy that we extend to everyone, whether we agree with what they have to say or not, but you are really stretching my patience, and my finger hovers over the delete, disintegrate and destruct button.

Do_U-Eat_Fish says :welcome:

Steve O'Shea just about to say :goodbye:

As a wise man once stated...

.... almost looks like Neil Diamond in profile. I like it!

Yawn...is that really the best you can do...? Maybe the reason you have soooo much time to post nonsense is because you have no friends, no fun, no life? No wonder !
greg

Is it just me, or has this nonsense taken on a distinctly ugly character?

Does Queen Sheetal pack heat?

:alarm:

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. Yet another thread is locked.

Yes, there's a lot of anger and hostility here. Shame really. Welcome to my life.

To other TONMO'ers, I am sorry that one person has taken it upon himself to ruin everyone elses time online. This is not the way that adults behave.

Finger on button, 1, 2 ...

Back to business.

Steve,

Too bad. There's been a lot of good information on this thread.

Erich