"giant" squid size

[tomossan]

and i say this with some reservation, as that usually brings up images of Architeuthus.... my question is this.
could a species of very large squid grow larger than 100 foot? i have heard from various internet sources of squids upto 175 foot, for instance

http://unmuseum.mus.pa.us/squid.htm

is this possible in any sense of the word? could a marine ecosystem support such a collosal squid, or is this completly undeasible? im intrigued by this, but i have a sneaky suspicion its codswallop. However if a ecosystem could support such a large animal than perhaps it could exist....

i know im rambling, but im quite interested to hear the opinion of poeple that know what the hell they're talking about :-D

[Phil]

Well, Steve and Tintenfisch are the ones for this one, but for my 2 cents worth...

Extremely unlikely that a squid could grow that large. For one thing, we have absolutely no evidence for Architeuthis over a maximum of 13m Total length. I suppose it is possible that a squid could grow larger if the food supply is there, but why have we not recovered fragments of creatures of this sort of size from Sperm Whale stomachs? Enough of the stomach contents of these whales have been examined by now, and it seems likely that remains of any creature of that size would have been identified and sensationalised by now.

In addition, no corpses of creatures of this size have been discovered or specimens become entangled and hauled up in drift nets.

Also one has to consider growth rates. Squids have very sort life spans. I believe Architeuthis probably reaches its maximum size in just 3-5 years, making it one of the longest lived squids. (kick me, Steve & Kat here.....). To believe a squid could reach 175ft or more implies incredible longevity, or, a phenomenal growth rate.

I suppose an ecosystem could support a squid of such size, there is just no reliable evidence for it unfortunately.

(Hope I am not treading on anyone's toes here.......)

Phil

[Tintenfisch]

Go Phil! We might just have to get you your own forum... ;)

Aye, Architeuthis probably still holds the record for longest squid, and of the 100+ we've seen, none has ever been longer than 37 feet. We think Mesonychoteuthis might reach lengths of about 35 feet and is certainly more massive in the body than the GS, but neither of these squid are reaching lengths approaching 100 feet.

I believe the 60' figure was the result of pacing off the animal's length... and you may recall the Tasmanian GS that washed up last year, which was 15' when it appeared and had grown to 60' by the end of an intensive week of press coverage...

[tomossan]

:P it seems my cryptozoology sites have let me down yet again.

*sigh* :roll: its still nice to imagine a 100 foot squid.... possibly capable of wrecking oil tankers ;)

:meso: RAR

[Fujisawas Sake]

Tomossan,

Well, you can always read The Future is Wild (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/index=books&field-titleid=1402911&ve-field=none/qid=/102-1780663-8604137) and take comfort in the idea that one day...

SQUID WILL RULE THE EARTH!

Mmmmmm.... Malacological overlords....

Sushi and Sake,

John

[Sordes]

But, what would be if a squid could never produce sexual organs and would never reach maturity? Could probably produce giants, comparable to the giant ammonites? It would be really interesting to see what would happen with a sterilized squid.

[sorseress]

And who, pray tell, would do the sterilizing, hmmm?

:squidaut:

[Sordes]

I did not say that such experiments should be made with an archi, it could also be done with a small species which is suitable for tanks.

[bobwonderbuns]

And how would one get the squid to hold still for such an experiement? "Hold still, hold still... there! Whoooose a big squid???" :roll:

[sorseress]

Good squiddy, good squiddy! Such a brave boy!
:mrgreen:

[ob]

I'm quite attached to my hectocotylus, thank you very much :shock:

[Sordes]

Interestingly similar experiments were already made with tadpoles many decades ago. After the removing of their thyroid glands they grew and grew and grew, but never reached maturity and became only frogs after they were feed with special hormons.

[sorseress]

Hmmm....Squids on steroids...

[Sordes]

Or better said the oppostite. Many animals get castrated or sterilized to grow bigger, for exemple chickens or steers.

[sorseress]

Bulls versus steers, from my experience growing up in farming country, though not farming, is really more about insuring that the best males in a farmers herd are left "whole" for breeding purposes, and the not so perfect specimens are sterilized so they can't impregnate the females before the desired sires can get to them. Sterilization also cuts down significantly on aggression, which is one reason that from time to time it has been suggested for certain male recidivistic criminals of human persuasion.

[Sordes]

Okay, we begin to talk about "unteuthology", I hope nobody will remove it...
The lesser aggression and the better controlling of sexual mating between different animals are important reasons why castration and sterilisation has been made since ages. But the positive result of better growth and more meat was also a reason.

[sorseress]

Steve and Kat are usually pretty laid back about losing focus if the original thread is actually ceph science related. Still, the question remains, except for satisfying curiousty, why in the world would anyone want to castrate a squid to see if it would grow larger?

[monty]

Steve and Kat are usually pretty laid back about losing focus if the original thread is actually ceph science related. Still, the question remains, except for satisfying curiousty, why in the world would anyone want to castrate a squid to see if it would grow larger?

Well, I'd be curious about the result, since cephs seem to have preserved some pretty ancient animal hormonal and developmental systems-- in the same way that fruit fly genetics showed us a lot about human development or squid giant axons told us about human nerves, perhaps it would be a Rosetta stone for hormonal control of animal development. Or, perhaps it would lead to giant watch-squids Erich could put in the moat around his creepy castle to devour meddling teenagers and their dog...

[Steve O'Shea]

I would be pretty interested in the results myself. Gigantisism and miniaturisation are two common ways in which speciation occurs. The Giant Squid, Architeuthis dux, is almost a gigantic version of other species of squid, and it's almost as if the thing matured very late in life and kept on growing in the interim.

One of the problems that we are facing with cultured squid is that they do not seem to ever attain the same size as wild stock. This probably reflects the size of the tanks that we are using, that in some way constrain growth .... we are good at rearing 'pygmy squid'. It does tell us that size of the animal is most definitely affected by environmental factors (the opposite of gigantisism in our case). Until I get larger facilities I'll not know if it is dietary or tank size/configuration.

[Sordes]

This phenomen is known in several fish-species, which keep also very small in small tanks, but there are also many species which always grow in the same way, indifferently how large the tank is.

[sorseress]

[QUOTE=Steve O'Shea]I would be pretty interested in the results myself. Gigantisism and miniaturisation are two common ways in which speciation occurs. The Giant Squid, Architeuthis dux, is almost a gigantic version of other species of squid, and it's almost as if the thing matured very late in life and kept on growing in the interim.

By permanently preventing maturation perhaps it would continue to grow, but since it couldn't reproduce itself you couldn't reproduce the affect unless you also altered it's chromosomes. Just by surgically altering one or more individuals you wouldn't be causing or encouraging speciation, you would only have caused those particular individuals to grow larger.

[sorseress]

Rereading the above post, if it was already surgically altered, altering it's chromosomes wouldn't do a darn thing. Sometimes the obvious escapes me. :oops:

[cuttlegirl]

Originally posted by Steve O'Shea One of the problems that we are facing with cultured squid is that they do not seem to ever attain the same size as wild stock. This probably reflects the size of the tanks that we are using, that in some way constrain growth .... we are good at rearing 'pygmy squid'. It does tell us that size of the animal is most definitely affected by environmental factors (the opposite of gigantisism in our case). Until I get larger facilities I'll not know if it is dietary or tank size/configuration.


I know that with African Dwarf Frog tadpoles (and froglets) that if they are housed in crowded conditions, they release some kind of phermone or hormone that inhibits the growth of other tadpoles in the tank. This happened with my tadpoles. Some of my tadpoles (same age, same parents) grew incredibly fast and others stayed tiny. When I separated the large ones, the other little ones had a faster growth rate. Wonder if something like this could happen with cephs?

[sorseress]

I wonder if the ability to do that comes with reaching a certain number of hours? Those that hatch first can insure their food source, and those that hatch later are relegated to eating the left overs. Otherwise, why would some of them do it and others not be able to? Simply survival of the fittest?

[Steve O'Shea]

I know that with African Dwarf Frog tadpoles (and froglets) that if they are housed in crowded conditions, they release some kind of phermone or hormone that inhibits the growth of other tadpoles in the tank.

By Joves! This is a most jolly interesting post. Have to look into this!

[sorseress]

"By Joves! "? :roflmao:

[cuttlegirl]

Originally posted by Sorceress
I wonder if the ability to do that comes with reaching a certain number of hours? Those that hatch first can insure their food source, and those that hatch later are relegated to eating the left overs. Otherwise, why would some of them do it and others not be able to? Simply survival of the fittest?

African Dwarf Frogs are a unique species. They mate, lay eggs and the eggs hatch within 24-48 hours, all at the same time. They are extremely small when they are born (about 1-2 mm). Also, they are a active, carnivorous tadpole. All other tadpoles are herbivores. They feed on live fresh water plankton until big enough to eat newly hatched brine shrimp. They have a specialized mouth to suck in their prey.

Here are a few links on the tadpoles...

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2002/11/1107_021107_tadpoles.html

http://autodax.net/DebanOlson.pdf

[monty]

African Dwarf Frogs are a unique species. They mate, lay eggs and the eggs hatch within 24-48 hours, all at the same time. They are extremely small when they are born (about 1-2 mm). Also, they are a active, carnivorous tadpole. All other tadpoles are herbivores. They feed on live fresh water plankton until big enough to eat newly hatched brine shrimp. They have a specialized mouth to suck in their prey.

Here are a few links on the tadpoles...

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2002/11/1107_021107_tadpoles.html

http://autodax.net/DebanOlson.pdf

Someone told me in my distant youth that tadpoles ate mosquito larvae... I guess I've been living under tadpole delusions for years!

[cuttlegirl]

Originally posted by Steve O'Shea
By Joves! This is a most jolly interesting post. Have to look into this!


By Joves, here's a start...

Collins JP, Cheek JE (1983) Effect of food and density on development of typical and cannibalistic salamander larvae in Ambystoma tigrinum nebulosum. Am. Zool. 23: 77-84.

Brockelman, Warren Y. (1969) An Analysis of Density Effects and Predation in Bufo Americanus Tadpoles. Ecology, 50(4): 632-644.

I found two!!!
Aikin, G.C. (1966). Self-inhibition of growth in Rana pipiens tadpoles. Physiol. Zool. 39: 341.

Rose, S.M. and F.C. Rose, F.C. (1961) Growth controlling exudates of tadpoles. Proc. Symp Soc. Exp. Biol. Med. 15: 207-281.

Sorry they are so old, but it will give you a start.

[Architeuthoceras]

Cannabalism in Spadefoot Toads (http://www.pbs.org/wnet/nature/bodychangers/tadpole.html)

If the pond starts to dry up... hurry and eat your siblings:wink:

[Sordes]

There is also the European garlic toad. They have giant tadpoles which live for a very long time in the water and can get sometimes 20cm long. They eat also not only plants and detritus, but also meat.