Here are some close-up, more detailed shots of the Mesonychoteuthis than you'll find in the syndicated stories. Unfortunately I can only post three at a time...

These are overviews of the whole animal, and the beak.

http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/download.php?id=109

http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/download.php?id=110

http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/download.php?id=111

Here are some close-ups of the arm suckers and hooks.

http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/download.php?id=115

http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/download.php?id=114

http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/download.php?id=113

And the tentacle clubs...

http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/download.php?id=116

http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/download.php?id=117

http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/download.php?id=118

AWESOME photos, thanks for posting. i want to put one of them on my desktop=)
sarrah

Hi Kat and Steve,


BIIIIIIIIIIIG favour to ask :D

As you know I work part time at our aquarium and this school holiday (starting 12 April) is called "Aliens of the Sea" We're featuring the weird and wonderful from the ocean and we'd love to print off the photos Kat just posted and use them in displays.................would that be OK???

Cheers

J

.... I've no problem - just as long as nobody else proposes to her as a consequence! :D ! (nobody has ever proposed to me online before!) :x

....awaiting Kat's verdict on the matter

These are such great pics! :shock: Just had to chime in. :D

Oops, sorry to respond late, go for it! :)

Thanks heaps, we will of course give proper photo credits!!

J

Just wanted to chime in and say thank you for posting the pictures.

Don't let Peter Benchley see them, though... the last thing we need is a The Beast 2.

Heeey... No Benchley Bashing! :lol:

Really though, "Jaws" was a terrific novel, but even Benchley himself has been saddened by what he viewed as anti-shark backlash due to his creations. I understand though... demonizing such creatures comes from what I think is a deep-seated need the collective unconscious of humanity has for monsters. Beats me as to why, though....

I still wouldn't want to be in the water with a Messie though...

Thankee-sai for the photos, Madame Tintenfisch

Waiting for the Rise of the Squibbons,

John

Wow!!! Thanks for the pics!!! Such hard (smelly) work and you guys are having a blast!!! Thank you so much for sharing. Amazing stuff!!!

with all those long tables, i bet you guys would have no problem holding quite the banquet.....

WK,

Are you proposing an all-squid menu?

Melissa

that wasnt my intention, but its not a horrible thought....start off with soup and/or salad, then a little fried squid, maybe a pasta, then could finish up with jello shaped like a ceph.... steve and kat certainly have enough tables to seat the entire tonmo community (dont see any chairs though) :)

Here are two further images of Mesonychoteuthis beaks (recovered from the stomach contents of a stranded sperm whale). They are considerably darkened, almost burnt in appearance - something in marked contrast to the fresh beaks depicted in an earlier image.

Cheers
O

http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/download.php?id=167

http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/download.php?id=168

....and from the fresh Mesonychoteuthis specimen, a couple of spooky shots (eery lighting) of the hooks and sucker ring.

http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/download.php?id=171

http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/download.php?id=170

http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/download.php?id=169

All that first sucker ring shot needs is a band of Elvish writing around the outside... ;)

three for architeuthis, with their smell so foul
seven for GPOs in their cold holes
and nine for humboldts, who above all else, crave lunch

:)

Lethal hooks.... YEESH :shock:

Any idea if this is a more raptorial species than Architeuthis? Are they better hunters?

Sushi and Sake,

John

Don't know about 'better,' but they're certainly different.
While no one has seen live mature Architeuthis do anything (including feed) we do have a pretty strong theory about them as sit-and-wait predators. And we know Mesonychoteuthis has, on at least one occasion, followed prey (presumably from the depths) right to the ocean's surface, where it commenced with pretty voracious feeding. Looking at the general body musculature, Archi is not capable of swimming at great velocity, at least for long (the body would self-destruct), but Meso certainly could with its large powerful fins.
So... I think it's safe to say that the colossal squid is a more proactive predator, but obviously both species are successful.

okay then, ive got to ask, who would win in a fight between a sperm whale, and architeuthis, and a mesonychoteuthis?


:grad: i reckon the sperm whale would be strangled by the archi, while biting it and killing it, at which point the meo would swim up, eat the archi, and live inside the sperm whales shattered body like a hermit crab.

any thoughts?

...Archi is not capable of swimming at great velocity, at least for long (the body would self-destruct), but Meso certainly could with its large powerful fins.
That's interesting -- how instrumental do you think those fins are in their propulsion? To that end, what are the viable means of locomotion for Mesonychoteuthis, and which is the most effective?

:heee:

Hard to say Tony. I cannot imagine the thick, muscular fins of Mesonychoteuthis gently undulating to maintain this beasts position and balance in the water column (if the animal was to hover motionless, then ambush prey as they swam, unsuspecting, past the arsenal of hooks, arms, tentacles and beak). These fins appear to be great muscular propulsive units; I would guess that they play a significant role in propelling this animal through the water column, as it seeks out and chases down prey. I also have difficulty believing that Mesonychoteuthis is an ambush predator, like a number of other cranchiid squid - I sincerely believe this animal, like Taningia danae, is designed to kill.
Cheers
O

What about the muscle layers in the mantle and the siphon? Is this a "fast" raptorial beastie here? And does it look like it can make the trip up to the surface without taking a beating from pressure changes?

BANZAI!!

John

Oh, and any hints of bioluminescence?

Another question re beaks: In one of the news articles, Messie was described as having four beaks [emphasis mine]. I find this a little difficult to, uh, "digest". Did they mean the beak has four moving parts, or is this yet another example of journalists not doing their homework?

The Tanster

Well, maybe they're talking about layers... I noticed when dissecting Loligo in my invert zoo lab, that the beaks came apart in two sections that each clearly looked like the original beak. BUT that doesn't count as two beaks, just an outer and inner covering.

Just my :twocents:

Sushi and Sake,

John

As far as speed goes, based on the size and musculature of Mesonychoteuthis' fins, we do think it's a fairly rapid swimmer.
It does have a photophore on each eyeball, and maybe more inside the mantle cavity (we'll be able to tell you in a few weeks).
The 'four beaks' myth was in National Geographic and was refuted on that thread along with much of the rest of that article... all squid have two beaks, sometimes referred to as one set of beaks.

Steve & Kat,

Any sense yet of what color the photophores are? Also, I'm looking at the comparative size illustration you guys produced, showing Meso. next to Archi., and there are two little black bumps on either side of Meso's head; are those the eyeball lights?

Clem

So it has headlights too? Geez... This is one heck of a squid...

John

So it has headlights too?

Better yet, the headlights are standard -- along with automatic jet drive, glove compartment (complete with ten gloves), state-of-the-art hook traction system, and that wonderful "new squid" smell.

Emergency "Jaws of Life" (beak) are optional and may be purchased for twelve Patagonian toothfishes or one wisecracking Kiwi teuthologist.

:mrgreen:
(Would you buy a used squid from this woman?)

Emergency "Jaws of Life" (beak) are optional and may be purchased for twelve Patagonian toothfishes or one wisecracking Kiwi teuthologist.

(Would you buy a used squid from this woman?)

i think you need to check your currency calculator.... the supply is high, so the price has fallen to 5.5 toothfish or .66 of a dolphin

as for buying from you, i wouldnt know until i get a chance to kick the tentacles....

:mrgreen: (Would you buy a used squid from this woman?)

Sounds like a real loan shark to me.... :heee:

Sorry, that one should have been a groaner...

Sushi and Sake,

John

:) Hi Dr. Bolstad! Great close-up pictures of the colossal squid! I was looking at them with a magnifying glass and the more I looked the more I realized that this creature was suitably adapted for its' function which seems to be one large "killing machine" if you will! Awesome!
What struck me very much was not so much its' massive musculature or the lethal razor-sharp hooks; but, the beak itself--a highly adaptable precise piece of efficiency that nature gave it, wouldn't you say?
If this creatures eats patagonian toothfish for its' meals and attacks sperm whales(as far as we can conjecture)--one can only wonder what else can possibly lurk down in the depths of the ocean?
Kat--thanks for your two previous e mails to me regarding this splendid discovery. Is the necropsy of the specimen still due for May 23rd?
Best Wishes to you all there in New Zealand!
Sincerely yours,
George Vaiciunas, Chicago, Illinois, USA.....

Hi George,
Yes, we are still conducting our next examination of the specimen on 23 May. Discovery (Canada) will be filming [parts of] the process.
Indeed there are bound to be other large squid out there; we know for a fact there's at least one more of similar size, even more poorly known than Mesonychoteuthis. And of course there could be squid so large sperm whales don't even want to tackle them; we would most likely have no record of these, as even the beaks would be unknown (at their larger sizes). :shock:
As an aside, Mesonychoteuthis won't be attacking sperm whales. There's no reason for it to do so; whales are definitely not on the menu for colossal squid, and it's unlikely that Mesonychoteuthis could come out top dog in an aggressive encounter with a fully grown bull sperm whale. But it definitely could impart nasty gouges on its way to becoming dinner.

:)
Thanks for your reply, Kat! What you say definitely makes sense regarding the colossal squid not really wanting to attack a sperm whale and the encounter is most likely to be the other way around...oh yes! I most certainly agree that a bull sperm whale will win the day if an encounter between the two took place and yes, you are right, I do agree that the bull will be scarred from the encounter, no doubt---this is all great reasoned speculation on our part--how I wish we could observe these marine creatures in their natural habitat! That would be wonderful!!
Best Wishes Again,
George V....

Steve, Kat,

If you don't mind the question, are we close to having Mesonychoteuthis officially published yet?

Phil

Afraid there's been zip progress on this (and many other things) for months. Seem to have been swamped for an eternity with other matters. The good news is the chaos here is about to end, with official PA assistance coming through in the immediate future (freeing up my time considerably).
Sorry
O

try telling them to speed up or theyll "rue the day".....

and as always shake your fist menacingly (in a 1910s sort of way) when you say 'rue the day'


:grad:

Isn't Rue Theday a back alley in Montreal? :P

not lejour?

:|

Well, this has now been *photographed* live, and mature (and also video); we're working on getting 'said' pics of the live animal online ..... as in you read it here FIRST ... but beware, it's sad.

Sad, as in killed by fishermen Steve?

Live 8-)
Sad :mesonych:
how big is/was it?

Hello Steve,

I can't wait to see these images. Then I can start blithering!

Cheers,
Clem

Sounds great! But how is it sad, Steve?

How 'sad' is it?

LIVE?! MATURE ?!? PHOTOS?!?! VIDEO?!?!?! My brain is having trouble taking this in :shock:

The 'sad' thing doesn't sound good, but still, WOW! Can't wait.

the pictures in this thread dosnt seem to work, possible to mirror them at http://www.imageshack.us/ or something? :confused:

and cant wait to see the live pictures/videos :rainbow: :shock:

Wow! This is some really exciting news... I can't wait to see this stuff :)

Ditto to Asimov... I'm not able to see the photos for some reason..
Thanks for posting!
ancora imparo,
-Paul

Dear All,

Can someone help me clarify something?

Depending on which report of the discovery of this particular specimen of Messie you read, it was either dead in the water, or else alive in the water, and dead by the time it got into the boat.

I've also read Dr O'Shea's reference to the creature's eyes being destroyed during capture.

Can someone please clarify for me whether the creature was dead or alive on capture, if it was alive how it was killed and what happened to the eyes?

Just wondering for some research I'm doing.

Many thanks
D

Two Mesonychoteuthis (at least; possibly a third) have now been sighted live at the surface, following Antarctic Toothfish on longline hooks to the surface. Also, there are now a number of reports of Antarctic Toothfish being retrieved from ~ 1000m depth with whopping great chunks out of them that are consistent with Mesonychoteuthis bites; there are also numerous reports of Antarctic Toothfish with Mesonychoteuthis beaks in the stomachs - one inconceivably large set of beaks, upper and lower, of LRL 45mm recently collected from one 'standard-sized' fish. We are NOT saying that the Toothfish is eating Colossal Squid of colossal proportion ... something else is up (perhaps eating dead specimens on the sea floor). We'll get to the bottom of this this coming week, as Kat and I are off on a wee journey.

Exactly how many of these reports have made it into scientific literature I am not sure, but I can assure you that they are true.

The eyes on the Mesonychoteuthis to date have all been destroyed (the large specimens), but there is some video of a live specimen that we are trying to obtain that might just show the eyes (a specimen at the sea surface in the Antarctic). Kat, myself and George Jackson (Australia) have nearly finished a manuscript redescribing the species based on new material - we're off next week to get the final bits of information that are required to complete it.

Hope that helps
O

You rock Steve!
:band:

I will be on the edge of my seat until I hear all about this! :shock:

Super Sweet!

how big would the squid be if you scale up from the "inconcievably large beak"??? bigger than colossal? "supermegatitanicunfeasiblylarge" squid? :mesonych: :cthulhu:

Dr O'Shea,

Many thanks for your reply.

My question was directed specifically to the Mesonychoteuthis found in April 2003 by those fisherman in the Ross Sea-

Did they kill it, and is that how its eyes were destroyed? What were the circumstances?

Or was it dead when hauled into the boat?

Be grateful to know.
D

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm. Ok, we understand that the 2003 specimen was live when *caught*; there was video also, except it wasn't the sort of thing that could be broadcast; knives, handles, long things, you name it were all speared into the squid in order to get it aboard ... but despite all of this action (all filmed from the deck, but looking at the backs of heads ... nothing of the squid) by someone using some of the most vile language (unrepeatable) I've ever heard, THERE IS NOT ONE SHOT OF THE SQUID WHILST LIVE!! We saw the video whilst in Napier - a brother (or other such relative) of one of the guys on the boat at the time had a copy of it.

When the specimen was first brought to our attention it was relayed to us that it was live, and that it was actually one of two squid that were caught by this vessel in 2003 (only one of which was saved). Unfortunately there was a huge stink ... you wouldn't believe it ... when we reported that animal to the press (politics), and after this time there has been no further information relayed to us about it. So, all we have to go on is:

1) it was alive, and
2) it was one of two specimens caught that season.

The eyes must have been destroyed during retrieval (they had been torn off/out); given the treatment of the specimen at the time it was caught this doesn't surprise me in the least. Usually when a squid is retrieved in a net the eyes will be damaged, but not torn off or out, which makes me think that they are incredibly large and quite protruding (hence delicate) in this species, much like they are in a number of other cranchiid genera (and in these genera with protruding, large eyes, they are frequently ripped off by the trawl).

Given the number of sightings of Mesonychoteuthis of late (given our ever-expanding encroachment [fisheries] into Antarctic waters) it is only a matter of time before the animal is either caught live (on film), or a good-quality specimen is captured. I think I would be happier to see imagery of the live animal - we don't need another specimen.

Hope that helps
O

wow, that sounds very exciting. A "live video would be awsome! :grin:

steve any chance the pictures in the start of this thread could be reposted? they dont seem to work anymore. or if anyone else got them saved they could post them

What is the messie doing in the video, Steve?

Dr O'Shea,

Many thanks for your reply to my question about the April '03 Ross Sea specimen.

I hope you're right: be amazing to see one of these extraordinary creatures live.

Frankly, only if the sighting is by scientists can I envisage the squid not being killed or mutilated: those seeing it, without any background knowledge, and especially fisherman, must be so frightened/horrified one can almost understand why they'd try to do the thing in. Not that that's acceptable.

But, again, many thanks for such a detailed and informative reply.
best
D

any chance the pictures in the start of this thread could be reposted?

Sure, here are some of the interesting ones again.

...

Thanks Kat.......love those hooks!

J

... !

Those claws are bigger than I thought!

To which can be added the following, from our latest wee escapade. You've just got to dig that ring on her finger!!!

... and these too, of Mesonychoteuthis beaks with an LRL of 48mm!!! Kat has far-better shots (emulsions) than these poorly exposed digitals, but they'll appear in due course.

Steve and Kat, two questions:

1) How does the Mesonychoteuthis LRL in the above specimen compare to a typical Architeuthis?

2) Having read above of the new material you have observed recently, how happy are you with the reconstruction you advised on recently for the Discovery Channel? Is there anything about the model you would like to change with hindsight? (Image attached below).

Thanks!

Howdo Phil. We'd have to measure LRLs on Archi for a true comparison, but the LRL really isn't the most informative measure for describing total beak size (the rostral length is quite short relative to the beak size in Architeuthis - meaning it has a short rostrum).

I'm quite happy with the Messie reconstruction we did several years ago for that AFO series, until we know otherwise. We did look at a few other cranchiids whilst down, and are convinced that the eyes were simply torn from the side of the head (and must have been rather substantial in size).

Now THAT'S what I call a beak!!!!!!

Love the ring Kat!


BTW the messie model has formally been offered to us (long term loan!) and we are now in the process of raising funds to repair it and get it on display. The aim is have all ready for the December School Holidays (major summer holidays in NZ). Then we're haveing squid etc as our holiday theme. Should be quite an attraction! I'll post pics closer to the event!

Cheers

J

If you just scale up linearly from the size of the beak in the full specimen you've examined, how big does that make the beak's owner? That's the biggest messie beak ever recorded, even counting whale-stomach versions, right? (Yeah, I know just scaling it probably makes naive assumptions, but I'm curious)

Thanks, Jean... the ring used to be a fork, but someone got creative with the tines. Had a spoon ring once as well, but it was distinctly less squiddy. :wink:
Phil, I don't think we observed anything too new and surprising... had to revise our previous measurement of the LRL (it's 37 mm), and confirmed that Arms IV are definitely, and markedly, the shortest, which has some interesting implications for Messie's natural posture.

... had to revise our previous measurement of the LRL (it's 37 mm), and confirmed that Arms IV are definitely, and markedly, the shortest, which has some interesting implications for Messie's natural posture.
Hello Kat,

Does that mean the drawing from Voss is inaccurate? Or just the caption? It depicts the 1st arm pair as being the shortest. The drawing was done from a juvenile specimen, and I don't suppose the arm proportions would change that dramatically during the maturation process...would they?

I'm guessing your confirmation of the arm length strengthens the conjecture that Messie's arms are oriented vertically?

Cheers,
Clem

ps: If you aren't careful, your visage may replace the double-decker bus as a standard measure for giant teuthids. "Lower rostral length=.25ttf, ML=11ttf..." :wink:

can you go into detail at all about the huge stink in the press and politics? no one will talk to you about it because you are opposed to bottom trawling and overfishing, or what?

great pics.
any progress with getting the live pics/vids? really looking forward to seeing those(probably not alone :mrgreen: )

any progress with getting the live pics/vids? really looking forward to seeing those(probably not alone :mrgreen: )

Oh, you are definitely not alone. :oshea:

:archi: :mesonych:

Does that mean the drawing from Voss is inaccurate? Or just the caption? It depicts the 1st arm pair as being the shortest. The drawing was done from a juvenile specimen, and I don't suppose the arm proportions would change that dramatically during the maturation process...would they?

Well! I went back to check this (doubted very much that Voss would be wrong) - the original drawing is from McSweeny 1970. He gives the raw measures for his four specimens, and for each the arm formula is definitely IV>III>II>I. But as I was looking at the illustration (available here on the Tree of Life (http://tolweb.org/tree?group=Mesonychoteuthis_hamiltoni&contgroup=Taoniinae)), I noticed that the arms on his specimens are pretty much developed to just past the hook series (which is nearly complete) on each arm. In both the specimens we examined, the number of suckers proximal to the hooks increases on each arm (IV>III>II>I), which is also true for McSweeny's specimens (or at least the one illustrated). Which means that if the hook series on all arms are nearly complete by that size (59-86mm ML), Arms IV have to be longest because they have 20-22 proximal suckers (as well as more hooks in the mid-arm series than the other arms), whereas the other arms mostly have 14-18. And since Arms IV in both larger specimens have fewer distal suckers than any other arm, and are markedly shorter, yes, there has to be a change in the proportions as the animal matures.

If you aren't careful, your visage may replace the double-decker bus as a standard measure for giant teuthids. "Lower rostral length=.25ttf, ML=11ttf..." :wink:

LOL. But we definitely don't want that!!

:thumbsup:

... and Kat, not sure whether you realise this yet (prolly do), but you've just developed a new theory in your last post ....

Once you've defrosted (she's currently frozen to the heater) I'll come chat.

Chat complete. We'z thinking as one (makes me kind-of redundant really).

..... Arms IV have to be longest because they have 20-22 proximal suckers (as well as more hooks in the mid-arm series than the other arms), whereas the other arms mostly have 14-18. And since Arms IV in both larger specimens have fewer distal suckers than any other arm, and are markedly shorter, yes, there has to be a change in the proportions as the animal matures.

Hey K, just what were the ASC's for the 4 arms on the large specimen of 2003?

Arm I length (R / L): 1040 / 1018
Proximal suckers: 15 / 14
Hooks: 7 / 14
Distal suckers: 136 / 139
Arm II length (R / L): 1061 / 1095
Proximal suckers: 15 / 14
Hooks: 10 / 9
Distal suckers: 136 / 136
Arm III length (R / L): 1152 / 1046
Proximal suckers: 18 / 18
Hooks: 11 / 10
Distal suckers: 138 / 136
Arm IV length (R/L): 870 / 852
Proximal suckers: 22 / 22
Hooks: 19 / 19
Distal suckers: 107 / 98

Sneak preview! Coming soon (well, depends on the reviewers, really) to a journal near you... :wink:

ABSTRACT

The ‘colossal’ cranchiid squid Mesonychoteuthis hamiltoni Robson is believed to attain the largest size of any Recent cephalopod. However, due to lack of material, and the fragmentary, partially digested or juvenile nature of almost every hitherto reported specimen, the biology and morphology of this species have remained poorly known. Herein several new specimens are described, including a recently captured subadult female from the Ross Sea (Antarctica), an immature female from Macquarie Island (southern Tasman Sea), severed tentacles recovered from Antarctic Toothfish long-lines (Antarctica), and additional beaks recovered from stomach contents of Antarctic Toothfish, and sperm whales stranded on the West Coast near Auckland. This novel material enables a redescription of this species based on subadult characteristics and character states, and confirms its status as the largest of Recent cephalopod taxa. The diet and known ecology of Mesonychoteuthis are also reviewed and discussed, with comments on its role in the diet of sperm whales and other predators in the Antarctic.

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:, :cool:, :mesonych:

Does this mean you'll be lookin for a real job now?

Real job? :goofysca: You can't make me...

There's always room for German teachers back here in Minnesota...You betcha!

Always have a back-up plan. :wink:

Is there any likelihood of this paper (which I'd dearly love to read) being published somewhere on the web, or is it confined to journals that I am, unfortunately, not likely to be able to get my hands on very easily?

Hi crab. All papers these days end up on the web sooner or later; on TONMO it usually happens sooner (one of our worst-kept secrets).

SHHH!!

I just get big red x's on the pictures... is there a reason for this? WHAT AM I DOING WORNG? WAAAA!

Yer not doin nuttin wrong there GPO .... A wee while ago (seems like an eternity now) there was a change in somethingorother, and all the pics vanished into web etherheaven. We reposted a number on the 4th page of this thread, but to go through this (and every other affected thread) and reinstall the pics at the appropriate place (that we've long-since forgotten) would take more time than we have in our lives to fix. The solution is for us to live with those little red crosses. Sorry.

Well, this has now been *photographed* live, and mature (and also video); we're working on getting 'said' pics of the live animal online ..... as in you read it here FIRST ... but beware, it's sad.

any development on the live picture/video front? :confused:

any development on the live picture/video front? :confused:

The discussion of messie vs archie eyes prompts me to ask if there's been any progress on this front... both on the pics/vids and the paper that Kat posted a tantalizing abstract for... we need a "drooling" smilie for those of us with a Pavlovian response to big ceph papers and pictures!

Here are some further good pictures of the model from the BBC-production "animal face-off": http://www.glasshammerfx.com/archives-animalfaceoff.htm#

Piiiiiictuuuuuuuurrrrrrreeeesssss.....nn nnneeeeeeeed piiiiiiiictuuuuuuurrrrrrreesssssess...pr eciousss....gollum, gollum....:lol:

Ooooh... I've just gone insane again haven't I... :sagrin:

I hadn't seen any indication of sanity? Did I miss that brief moment in time?:sagrin:

Oh, I'm mostly insane, it's just that usually I'm lucid here.