Hi, I'm Bruce and I need a little help. Frist of all, I have no idea where I can get an octopus :neutral: . I live near Stoudsburg PA, if it helps any. Will a 30 gallon tank be good enough for a small octo? Thank you for helping me, It would help a lot!

:welcome: Check out our Ceph Care thread. And you live near my favorite LFs in Lancastor Pa - That Pet Place. I have gotten probably 5 octos from them over the years.

Carol

Welcome to Tonmo!!! It is going to take you a minimum of two months or so to cycle a tank anyway, so you have plenty of time to search for your new pet !!! A 30 is a little small for a captive bred bimac...is there a chance you could get a 55 ? It is much easier to keep one in that size of a tank !
greg

Welcome, Ceph_dude!
:)

Hi and welcome to TONMO.com :welcome:

BOE: How is Oozer doing? (Oozer is BOE's bimac)

Nancy

He (http://digital-universe.net/gallery2) disappeared. :sad:

Thank you very much for the help, but I don't think my mom will let me get a 55 gallon tank any time soon, lol. Is there any other way? :confused:

Although I will probably be reprimanded for saying this :grin: ,

Yes they can be kept in a 30 gallon tank. However, be advised this means they will require even MORE work than with a larger tank.

There are many reasons larger tanks are better, however for those of us with size/cost/location factors (such as myself) that can only get a max 30 gallon tank, you can still successfully keep Octopuses.

Larger tanks have more room for the octopus, allow for more surface area (and thus more dissolved oxygen content), and in general are more forgiving water condition-wise (say if the octopus inks or the power goes out and you lose filtration).

Having said that, what are the keys to keeping an octopus in a 30 gallon?

Priority # 1 is filtration.

Priority # 2 is water condition (full strength sea water, colder temperatures, high oxygen content, NO ammonia or nitrites).

Priority # 3 is enrichment and environment (does the octopus have different toys to play with? Does it have plenty of hiding places so it can relax and not feel threatened? Do you feed him mostly live food so he has to hunt it? Etc, etc).

If you succeed at ALL 3 of these things, an octopus can be kept in a 30 gallon. 8-)

Thank you for the information. We already have a 30 gallon salt water tank and I didn't think my mom would get a 50 gallon tank for an octopus (she don't really like the idea of feeding live crabs and fish to another animal, but I'll talk her into it). Yea, she don't like the exotic pets, but i think she'll let me. By the way, where would be a good place to get octopus supplies (filters, skimmers ect.), and what kind would you suggest? Thank you


P.S. I hope that you don't get reprimanded! lol!

Are you going to be using your existing 30 gallon Saltwater tank and converting it to an Octopus tank?

Or are you going to buy a brand new 30 gallon tank?

Probably a new one...... It's kinda old

Good! Well right now PetCo online is probably the cheapest place for supplies, because there's currently a special on if you spend $45 or more you get 20% off your total order, that's a pretty good deal! Here's my order:

http://members.cox.net/mbrown777/PetCoCheckOut.jpg

As you can see, for just over a hundred bucks you get an eclipse system, protein skimmer, and air pump. I'll continue in the next message....

Why Eclipse? Well some do not like it. I love it, however, and I'll explain why. First, take a look at my current setup, I just received my PetCo order tonight so the tank is finally setup and ready to begin the cycling process:

http://members.cox.net/mbrown777/EclipseSystem.jpg

What's the first thing you notice? The tank top is completely enclosed! EVERYTHING, INCLUDING THE PROTEIN SKIMMER, is INSIDE THE TANK :smile:. While not as important with Bimacs, still, better to be safe than sorry ;). I did have to cut a little bit of the plastic from the inside of the lid to get the skimmer to fit, but it was no big deal :)

Continuing....

A lot of people are under the false impression that Octopuses require excellent water quality. Technically, this is not the case. They are very tolerant of Nitrates (for an invertebrate). However, they are still intolerant of what I call "The Big 3" - Ammonia, Nitrite, and Heavy Metals (especially Copper). In addition, they require more oxygen than a fish the same size (remember, they do have 3 hearts).

So here's where the Eclipse system comes in. As we know, it does an excellent job (specifically the bio-wheel) of removing Ammonia and Nitrites from the aquarium, however it does its job so well you end up with more nitrates. However remember what I said earlier, it isn't really as big a deal as all that. Regular partial water changes will keep them at very acceptable levels.

Now take a look at this pic:

http://members.cox.net/mbrown777/TankTop.jpg

Look at the first item (1.) - Water enters the Eclipse system via a magnetic impeller, and drops down onto the filter media. Here is your FIRST air/water exchange (that's GOOD for keeping tank Oxygen levels up).

Next, look at the second item (2.) - The spinning bio-wheel. Here is your SECOND air/water exchange. If you look closely towards the middle of the bio-wheel, you can actually see air bubbles forming.

Next, look at the third item (3.) - The exit flow. The water is shot out and drops down yet again into the tank water. This is your THIRD air/water exchange.

Lastly, notice the blue filter cartridge containing a long strip of carbon (that's GOOD for removing harmful items from the water and absorbing ink if the octopus inks).

Continued in next message...

Continuing from last message....

Octopuses require more oxygen than marine fish, and they are messier as well. This is where the protein skimmer comes in handy.

Take a look at this pic shot with the flash on:

http://members.cox.net/mbrown777/Aquarium2.jpg

Look at all the Oxygen in that tank! Notice on the left the airstone-driven protein skimmer is providing more than enough Oxygenation. It's hard to make out in this pic because it was shot at an angle from above, however there's also a decent water flow from right to left from the Eclipse exit tube as well.

And the skimmer has the added benefit of keeping the water conditions at acceptable levels by removing waste materials from the water (remember that messy Octopus I mentioned earlier :mrgreen: )

So what else can I tell you?

First, try to get a black hood, because black duct tape doesn't show up as much since it's the same color, and you may need to duct tape your aquarium hood to keep the octopus from climbing out and exploring your living room :razz:

Second, give the octopus lots of hiding places. Go to Home Depot and pickup some ABS/PVC tubing joints (3-ways, 90-degree angles, 4-ways, etc). Make sure you get the kind that says "for potable water use", this is the kind used to transport drinking water (i.e. it won't leach anything into your aquarium). He/She will love to hang out in those and explore them all at night. This is also smoother than live rock (which you should also have because it's helpful for biological reasons as well and looks nicer), and it won't hurt his/her delicate suckers.

Third, try as often as possible to feed it live food - shrimp, crab, crayfish, baby clams, etc.

Fourth, give it different items to play with (that are saltwater safe...i.e. no metal items!) on different days to keep him/her from getting bored. You'll soon learn what his/her favorite toy is.

Lastly, if you're getting a Bimac or similiar temperate (i.e. cold) water species, make sure you keep the temps at room temperature (70 degrees) or lower, if possible. Remember, the lower the temp, the more oxygen the water will hold, the less metabolism the Octo will have, and ultimately the longer it will live.

All these are very important to keeping an Octopus, ESPECIALLY if you're going for a smaller than recommended tank.

Sure, you could spend big bucks on a snazzy setup for yourself, however there are many people that have done this and failed (multiple times) at keeping an Octopus, because they don't understand the nature of the animal and what water conditions really matter.

Hope this helps...

so the clear thing on thte left side of the tank is the protien skimmer?

Thank you for your help, but I still don't get keeping the protein skimmer IN the tank....

so is this Ecipse thing a filter or just a top?

The Eclipse system incorporates a filter into the hood, so it is both...and has proven several times to be a failure in trying to manage a reef type setup...can it be done? Of course...but the negatives far outweigh the advantages.
As to the statement regarding water quality and octos...it is true that you can keep an animal alive in poor conditions, but it is equally true that it will certainly not thrive under those conditions...and it seems to me that we are trying to do what is best, not what you can "get away with".
Every Eclipse reef tank I have seen set up has crashed, killing all of the inhabitants...it is designed for freshwater use, not saltwater, no matter what they say on the side of the carton.
greg

So, then what kind of filter would you suggest??? I'm so confused!!!!!!!

The Eclipse system incorporates a filter into the hood, so it is both...and has proven several times to be a failure in trying to manage a reef type setup...can it be done? Of course...but the negatives far outweigh the advantages.
As to the statement regarding water quality and octos...it is true that you can keep an animal alive in poor conditions, but it is equally true that it will certainly not thrive under those conditions...and it seems to me that we are trying to do what is best, not what you can "get away with".
Every Eclipse reef tank I have seen set up has crashed, killing all of the inhabitants...it is designed for freshwater use, not saltwater, no matter what they say on the side of the carton.
greg

Greg, do you have any first-hand experience using an Eclipse system?

I've been keeping marine aquariums since the mid-80's (including Octos in the late 80's, early 90's until I moved away from San Diego), and have used the Eclipse both currently and in the past.

The bio-wheel can handle a massive amount of biological filtration. The constant aeration and exposure of the filter media to constant wet/dry states is why.

I generally test the water every two weeks after the tanks have cycled, and I've never seen even a detectable level of Ammonia or Nitrite, it's always at 0ppm. Now Nitrates do tend to rise, as they do in all closed systems, however as I mentioned, regular water changes take care of that.

So your statement of keeping the animal in poor conditions is completely untrue (plus, I would never do that to so intelligent a creature).

triggerhappytuna, in answer to your questions, yes, the clear thing is the protein skimmer. Generally they are in a sump or outside of the aquarium, this just makes it more convenient maintenance-wise (everything is under the lid).

So, then what kind of filter would you suggest??? I'm so confused!!!!!!!

The preferred method is to get a 55 gallon tank, add a sump, skimmer, powerhead (with mesh covering so the octo can't stick his tentacle inside)...ad infinitum. Keep in mind this still does not guarantee success.

It all depends on your particular situation. That was just my example of what I'm doing. Since you stated you could only use a 30 gallon, then you'll just have to be extra watchful of water conditions, regardless of what you get =o).

And just so you know there are plenty of people that have had success using an Eclipse system:

Eclipse 6 gallon reef:
http://www.theibarras.com/nanoreef/Tank_Front.jpg

Eclipse 12 gallon reef:
http://web2.airmail.net/koolaid/MVC-161S.JPG

Eclipse 29 gallon reef:
http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/Vines/5629/tank.jpg

And further reading:
http://www.aquarticles.com/articles/saltwater/Blumhagen_First_Reef.html (How to setup an Eclipse 6 gallon mini-reef)

http://www.aquaticcritter.com/Reef/livingreefaquarium.htm (Setting up a 29 gallon Eclipse mini-reef)

Quite honestly, as long as you have some live rock in the tank for additional filtration, I don't see how an Eclipse tank could "crash" and kill all the inhabitants, unless the person was grossly negligent? :confused:

So where can i get live rocks?

This is one of the better places to get live rock from:

http://www.liverocks.com/

Also, with enough live rock, you wouldn't even need a bio-wheel, or any biological filter for that matter, the live rock would take care of it all.

A lot of the more serious reefers go that route. In my case I'll be using only a few pieces of live rock but also PVC for the octo to hide/hang out in (and potentially hamster tunnels if I can find any that will sink :mrgreen: - maybe ferret tunnels are heavy enough? :mrgreen: ), so I'm keeping the bio-wheel running as an extra precaution and just making regular water changes to keep the nitrates down.

thank you very much, but how many lbs of live rock would you suggest?

I would go with at least a 1-1 ratio (30 lbs), if not more. If you're short on funds, you can start with 10lbs, see how it looks and make sure there's enough room, and gradually add more from there, it's completely up to you!

Now if you're depending on the live rock for biological filtration (i.e. not going with a sump or bio-wheel) then you should start with 30lbs and go from there.

Also check out Reefs.org, specifically the Nano forum. A lot of people use the Eclipse 3 and 6 for nano-reefs, they even have articles on "modding" it to increase the lighting capability.

Keep in mind those guys are primarily interested in keeping corals alive and thriving, not octopuses, however the same principles apply, and technically Octopuses are more forgiving of Ammonia, Nitrite, and Nitrate than some of the corals. And of course, corals aren't as dependent on the oxygen content of the water as an Octopus is:

http://reefs.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=44659

And here's another nice pic of an Eclipse mini-reef:

http://reefs.org/phpBB2/files/5897_1075711366.jpg

i have a reef tank that is in a 39 gal eclipse and it has been setup for 3 years with no problems the only thing i dont like about it is that salt comes out the back of it but other than that every inhabitant does great i change the water biweekly and it is just fine.

Just how much are you getting paid by Eclipse exactly?

Okay, only joking, but that aside...

I am personally very uncomfortable with the bare minimum approach. I think that experience has shown us all here that 30gal tank just really don't cut the mustard when it comes to cephalopods. And whether we like it or not we have had a lot of new members get an octopus on a budget and lose them fairly quickly.

Myself, Nancy and Greg have seen a lot of newbies come and go. It's a shame that there haven't been more people have a go and succeed compared to those who got disillusioned and gave up.

Now, if in this hobby, we had a regular supply of properly identified and preferably captive bred dawrf octos like mercatoris, bocki, aculeatus etc then i would be happy to suggest 30gals as a minimum. As we are contending with Octopus bimaculoides as the most likely candidate for a first time cephalopoder then there is no way, under any circumstances that a 30 gal can properly support the needs of a bimac for its lifespan. It's a fact.

Please refer to pictures of Nancy's Ollie and others who have had bimacs live their entire natural lifespan, they get seriously big. And briareus, vulgaris and other get even bigger still. You only reffered to 'octopus' i dont think you mentioned a species?

Please allow me to reply to some earlier points, sorry it took so long for me to get to this thread in the first place...

There is a very good chance that your skimmer will never get to work properly bacause it is in the tank. I can well imagine the octo climbing in there and hopefully not ending up in the collection cup.

I also challenge the 'A lot of people are under the false impression that Octopuses require excellent water quality.' statement. Can you give me an example of when we dont want to provide the best water quality? In my experience they are not as settled in tanks with high nitrates and are much more skittish, therefore more prone to inking. I wouldnt like to see a 30 gal tank after a heavy inking session with such a small skimmer or worse, no skimmer.

Otherwise a I agree with a lot of what you are suggesting...

Have you not found that salt creep in an Eclipse eventually hjams the wheel? I frequent a few other forums where this has came up

Cheers
Colin

Hi,

Here's Ollie, who was in a 46 gallon bowfront and I was afraid she would outgrow it. She was with me about 10 months - I think she was about 3-4 months old when she arrived.

She was not the only large bimac, either.

Also - octos are very sensitive to ammonia and nitrites.

Nancy

wow, kinda big...... is there a smaller kind of octopus i can buy? mom would kill me if it got that big....

"Greg, do you have any first-hand experience using an Eclipse system?

I've been keeping marine aquariums since the mid-80's (including Octos in the late 80's, early 90's until I moved away from San Diego), and have used the Eclipse both currently and in the past."

Yep. Was in the trade when they made their debut...it is a nice FRESHWATER system...it was not designed for, nor is it good for, a marine system. Will it work...yes, barely. It is not built for the bacterial loads that come with a salt system, and can crash easily...there is no redundancy to it.
Keeping a skimmer IN the tank is rather perplexing...I don't see much merit in it.
I am happy that you have had such phenominal success with Eclipse systems...I like them for my dwarf cichlids just fine, but would not use one for a saltwater setup. I have seen them used for salt before...and yeah, they get by...and that is it...I think your photos of your "reef" tanks is ample evidence to that end...not meaning to put you down at all, I am happy that you love the system so well....but it really is not the best way to keep an octo.
greg

No worries, we just have different points of view, and I understand you have to look out for the new marine aquarist who's never done this before.

However, I don't plan on my next Octo starting out as a 3-4 month old adult that looks like its previous owner fed it as much as it could eat each day before I got it :wink:

And it's not like the tank is going to be bare, there will be live rock, pvc pipe, etc, for bacteria to colonize, as well as a sand bed, so, worse case scenario, something fails (which I've never heard of), the live rock and sand will still be there, as will oxygenation from the air stone via air pump.

And obviously, anything in the tank is fair game for the Octopus, but that goes with the territory :smile:

By the way, did I mention I'm the president of Marineland?

JUST KIDDING! Hehe :mrgreen:

wow, kinda big...... is there a smaller kind of octopus i can buy? mom would kill me if it got that big....

You could try getting a pygmy octopus, however those are a little hard to come by...

Do you have any idea where I can get a pygmy octothat is aroiund Stroudsburg PA? If not, thats ok ( I just won't tell my mom exactly how big they get ) lol :D.

She'll never know....................

Do you have any idea where I can get a pygmy octothat is aroiund Stroudsburg PA? If not, thats ok ( I just won't tell my mom exactly how big they get ) lol :D.

No idea! I'm not sure if any place has them right now.

Also, generally speaking, the larger the octo, the longer it will live.

Perhaps someone more familiar with pygmys can chime in here and give you a lifespan range. I'm more familiar with local bimacs here in San Diego.

Another thing to think about, getting it from a fish store, you have no idea how old it is, it could be a full-grown adult with only a few weeks left to live!

http://members.cox.net/mbrown777/BlueRing2.jpg

pygmys live only up to 6 months

Wow, now that IS a short lifespan! :sad:

well like you said the smaller they are thhe shorter they live

although there are some reports of them living to 7 months but that is very unheard of

...and six months is a "full term"...usually, you will get them when they have a few weeks, or maybe a month at best...

We have collected O digueti before, and are toying around with trying to obtain some eggs this year...but, (and there are a lot of buts) we shall see...paperwork is a nightmare!
greg

i live in san diego..
i am curious to know where you can get bimacs? let me know please
thanks.

Hi and welcome to TONMO.com! :welcome:

You're in luck - aquacultured bimacs are sold very near you. You'd probably be able to drive over and pick one up. Here is the link:

Octopets (http://www.octopets.com)

Octopets has been out of bimacs for a while but are supposed to have some more available soon. So be sure to make arrangements before you stop in.

Nancy

Ok, my mom wants to know a few things
#1 how do you keep the water cool in the summer
#2 where can you get live crabs and other food for them
If my mom comes up with anymore questions i'll post them

Oh yea, she wanted to know if there was a closer place to get octos besides Lancaster, we live in Stroudsburg PA.

#1 - Keep your house air-conditioned (or buy a chiller for the aquarium)

If you get a bimac, the water in a shallow tide pool here in San Diego can get up to 75 degrees on a really hot day, however in general in the summertime the water here is 69-70 degrees. And in the wintertime it's 55-60 degrees.

#2 - fish stores, asian markets, bait shops, etc, any place that has live shrimp, fish, or crabs would be a good place to look. There are actually lots of places if you look around at other options besides just fish stores. And of course, you can always setup a separate "octo food" tank to keep their food in. And there's always mail order as well :grin:

I was able to keep the temperature of my tank in the low 70's even in the Texas summer by:
1) keeping the air conditioning turned down low
2) running the protein skimmer mainly at night, when I could lower the temperature still more
3) keeing a fan blowing on the sump

Nancy

I used a big box fan over my sump and it kept it around 68 degrees. I had to make about 5 more gallons a week of water because of the evaporation though.

Thanks :smile: I think i got my mom to get a 55 gallon tank too 8-) . So it's all good! i want to thank you all for your help and I will probably have more questions later on, but i'm all out for now. Thank you all again for your help!!!! :rainbow: