I choose to beleive...

I was a chef at a yacht club back in Maryland some years back. They had a large aquarium built into the wall near the bar, and because of my nonstop ceph-babbling, the head chef had taken some passing interest in the subject. After doing his AM checklist, he was at the bar waiting for the kitchen to open one morning when the aquarist stopped by for the regular upkeep and to check-out the health of the tropical freshwater species. The head chef (Mike) brought-up octopus to the aquarist, who suddenly became very excited and told him that he'd put one in the tank. When Mike mentioned that he thought they were only saltwater, the aquarist assured him up and down that such an animal did, in fact, exist. When Mike told me later what he had been told, I told him no. They do not exist. Cephs don't even like brackish water and are extraordinarily sensitive to saline levels. Nobody listened to me (just like when I tried to explain that there IS a difference between cuttlefish and squid), and one day about three weeks later, I arrived for work and was told that the aquarist had come by with an octopus in a sealed bag. According to multiple witnesses, he dumped the bag directly into the freshwater tank after submerging it - much too briefly - for the temperatures to reach a mean level. The octopus acted stunned for a few moments, then immediately attacked and killed one of the favorite fish. Then another. Then the octopus was removed and taken away, and the aquarist left, promising to pay for or replace the fish that were killed.
The two-spotted octopus common to inshore waters here in California - often popularly referred to as the California Mudflat Octopus - does live in intertidal zones, and has a much higher tolerance for salinity fluctuation and brackish conditions. I'm sure there are other varieties around the globe that live in similar zones and are similarly adjusted to life under these tough conditions, but as for a freshwater octopus? I sincerely doubt it. I wish it were true, but until a real expert comes forward with what, for me, would be an earth-shaking discovery, I don't believe in such a creature. Would be cool though. Too bad. :sad:

Maybe we could invent one, we let a octo live in a tank and for every batch of eggs that live in the tank, we add a single drop of freshwater into the tank, then we choose the stongest of the batch to live in it and we do so everytime they have eggs. Sounds interesting, right?

Right.

Evolution can move quickly...but perhaps not that fast...
g

That has got to be the weirdest ceph story I ever heard... But it's very intresting. And as for chronos theory I had made up on of my own on an old post. Look it up!

Sure will.

Cool!

Erich, I too don't believe it's possible, though you know the biology of it a lot better than me. NTL, we haven't discovered every species in the world yet, and who knows what dwells deep in underground caverns etc... after all they recently found micro-organisms that eat minerals that no one dreamed they would and their dna is unique on this planet.
I wondered what happened to that poor octopus --- an aquarist should know better.

Maybe there are fresh water octopussies on Titan. :)

an aquarist should know better...

Total true, I've been to the market and they say that squid and cuttles are different. Then I see a big fin squid and they declare that it's a cuttle-squid hybrid! :lol:

hmmm... looking at grimpie... aren't there some that might be that way? after all vampiroteuthis really looks like an octopus, but it acts and has traits like a squid... so aren't these unusual animals a cross between the two? oh I don't mean a "cross" as in a hybrid, I mean a species that has traits of both. I know pusses and squids don't interbreed. Man oh man it would be cool to look at evolution through a lense of time.

However, I feel silly I probably have no idea what I'm talking about.

lol

Is that you in the avater, Octomush?

after all vampiroteuthis really looks like an octopus, but it acts and has traits like a squid... so aren't these unusual animals a cross between the two?
Your right, sort of... about vampy that is. For school I was asked to do a squid report, I choose vampy, but soon found out he's neither squid nor octopus... he's in a class all his own. Cool huh? Anyway, he shows the traits, but really isn't either. What my rambling has to do with the topic, I don't know; it's just nice to insert yourself sometimes! :mrgreen:

Yep, its a hoax, I used to believe it as well, until someone pointed out otherwise. I don't think theres solid proof at the moment..

Your right, sort of... about vampy that is. For school I was asked to do a squid report, I choose vampy, but soon found out he's neither squid nor octopus... he's in a class all his own.

Joy, GP087,

Yep, that's right.

Vampyroteuthis is the last surviving member of the vampyromorpha, a cephalopod group that really had its heyday in the Jurassic. It is neither squid or octopus but probably stemmed from that murky period about 350 million years ago in when the earliest belemnites, teuthids and octopods were all beginning to appear.

Evolving from a ten-armed common ancestor back in the late Devonian or early Carboniferous, the different groups took the body plan in different ways. The belemnites kept their ten arms, the octopuses slowly lost an arm pair leaving them with eight. The decapodiformes (later cuttlefish, squid) converted one arm pair to tentacles. The vampyromorphs reduced an arm pair to form those long sensory filaments, but this is a different arm pair to the tentacle conversion of the squid.

One strange feature of Vampyroteuthis is that in common with many of the ancient vampyromorphs it actually has two pairs of fins. The second pair of fins are grown in its juvenile stage but are absorbed back into the body as the creature grows, developing the second pair in its adult stage. So although in most photos you will find the animal with one pair showing, it actually has two, one pair being lost as it grows.

Most of the fossil 'squid' you will occasionally find for sale, most commonly German Jurassic specimens, are actually vampyromorphs, only very distantly related to modern squid. One of the earliest vampyromorphs known, Mastigophora brevipinnis from the mid Jurassic Oxford Clays displays the eight arms and two filament structure. Another fossil vampyromorph of about the same date is Trachyteuthis which also has two pairs of fins.

Interesting group, I can see why the Vampire Squid is frequently referred to as a living fossil! As for freshwater octopuses.....nah, afraid not. That's come up here before, I'll see if I can find the original thread for you.

Phil

There was a thread regarding an octopus in a freshwater lake... is that the one Phil?

http://www.tonmo.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1557

Is that you in the avater, Octomush?
Yes it's me in that avatar. Why?

And about those Vampies theres some info in that Cuestou book about them...

Nick it's nice to put a face to a name!! Do you really have blue hair? (when I was at school my teachers would've flipped if we turned up with blue hair :lol: a few tried but got suspended.......that was back in the dark ages of course!)

J

It'd be cool if in addition to the electric fish and freshwater dolphins, the Amazon had freshwater octo's.

In fact, given that so many other species have adapted to fresh water, it makes me wonder why ceph's HAVEN'T evolved this capability?

Maybe we can sequence the O. vulgaris genome and splice in some DNA from a zebra mussel, then introduce hybrid cephs to the Great Lakes.

LOL! No Jean, I dont have blue hair any more for the same reasons. I shaved my head too lol. But If my hair grows back by this summer I think I'm gonna color it again lol!

It'd be cool if in addition to the electric fish and freshwater dolphins, the Amazon had freshwater octo's.

In fact, given that so many other species have adapted to fresh water, it makes me wonder why ceph's HAVEN'T evolved this capability?

Maybe we can sequence the O. vulgaris genome and splice in some DNA from a zebra mussel, then introduce hybrid cephs to the Great Lakes.

Wow... Thats a great sounding idea! To me at least... lol

Great, Octomush, I used to have blue hair too you know, but it sorta turned blueish - green color when I washed my hair with too much shampoo after the day I dyed it. The teachers didn't mind, but when the principal saw me, he went all mad about being a punk and something about work eithcs....lol. My hair is chestnut brown now, but changing myu color would be good. :rainbow:

LOL! :lol:

I bet if we reased and breeded bimacs and gradualy changed the salt lower and lower they could become fresh water

100 drops of freshwater per batch of eggs?

that would work.

it might take 10 generations or so to notice a change.

it's still a change though...

it might take 10 generations or so to notice a change.

Theirs or ours?

Theirs....

I was thinking of a Scientific American article on breeding for human longevity which said that one way to do it was to wait longer before reproducing, thus allowing more time for deleterious mutations to express themselves and prevent reproduction.. after 10 generations or so, your descendents will see an increase in lifespan.

So, 10 generations will probably let us see an increase in tolerance of low-salinity environments in octo's.

I want an octopus that can live in tap water and eat table scraps. Speaking of lifespan, I'd also like to have a more K-strategist type of octopus that wouldn't die right after having kids.

I want an octopus that can live in tap water and eat table scraps. Speaking of lifespan, I'd also like to have a more K-strategist type of octopus that wouldn't die right after having kids.

Why not go for broke, and breed one to do your laundry, pay your taxes, and give you backrubs? (oh, and write your thesis, for all those academics out there....)

:mrgreen:

Well they do have 8 arms so as long as they are ambidextrous that is not totally improbable... :mrgreen:

(oh, and write your thesis, for all those academics out there....)
Thanks Monty!

*grabs pen and paper*
Dear Santa
You can drop the various sharp implements, the 10 gallons of napalm and the sniper rifle... I now know what I really want for Xmas...

TPOTH

Can I have your Dragonov then???? I am feeling a little postal...

(oh, and write your thesis, for all those academics out there....)


OOOOOOOOOh YES PLEASE I'll be first in line! :heart:

J

OOOOOOOOOh YES PLEASE I'll be first in line! :heart:

J

gee, I seem to have hit a nerve. Perhaps this can help out until we breed the thesis-writing octopus:

http://science.slashdot.org/science/05/04/13/1723206.shtml?tid=133&tid=146&tid=14

Maybe I would have done better as a grad student with this approach :roll:

http://science.slashdot.org/science/05/04/13/1723206.shtml?tid=133&tid=146&tid=14

Maybe I would have done better as a grad student with this approach :roll:


Unfortunately I heard that the conference since rescinded the acceptance. They claimed they had accepted it because they had ran out of time to review it and didn't think it was fair to reject an un-reviewed abstract. Which I think is unfair to the authors that were reviewed.

Dan

Unfortunately I heard that the conference since rescinded the acceptance. They claimed they had accepted it because they had ran out of time to review it and didn't think it was fair to reject an un-reviewed abstract. Which I think is unfair to the authors that were reviewed.

Dan

Although I can understand them being embarassed at accepting it, that seems like it just makes them look worse (bad sports, as well as the unfairness you mentioned...) Then again, I thought that the conference looked pretty bogus to begin with... the conference page
http://www.iiisci.org/sci2005/website/default.asp
has a lot in common with the randomly generated article!

Then again, I thought that the conference looked pretty bogus to begin with... the conference page
has a lot in common with the randomly generated article!

I believe that was precisely the reason they sent it there!

Dan

I agree :wink:

fresh, i.e, essentially distilled, not brackish.