Just a heads up, within the next few weeks there will be some very interesting ceph news from the South, which we are anticipating will have international press coverage. More to follow soon...

;) Mysterious T

.... 7 days to go .... and counting

.... 5 days to go ...... and counting

A sneak preview attached

http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/download.php?id=76

:notworth: :notworth: Ahhhhhhhhh Steve the cruelty you put us through lol!!!! I simply cannot wait!!!!! I know it will be amazing; as always. Thank you for sharing this incredible bit of science with all of us here at Tonmo. Thank you to all of you for doing such a GREAT job!!!!!!! Until later...I will be patiently waiting lol!!!!

The lengths and weights that Architeuthis is reputed to attain are quite exagerated. The same could apply for Mesonychoteuthis, but as adult specimens are extremely rare in collections, and very little information is available for it, we are not in any position to challenge presently reported estimates.

I attach two files. The first depicts adult Architeuthis dux maximum lengths and weights, based on examination of over 100 specimens in the past 8 years. I do not believe, as stated many times throughout this site, that they attain lengths of 60 feet and weights of one ton.

For Mesonychoteuthis maximum estimates of length are: mantle length: 2-4m; total length to 30 feet.

Based on a combination of beak dimension, and both factory ship and photographic observations, Clarke (1986: 202) suggests Mesonychoteuthis attains a mantle length in excess of 2 m, possibly exceeding 4 m. Nesis (1987) reports mantle lengths of 2.0-2.25 m, but it is uncertain whether these measures are based on actual specimens, or estimates of size based on beak remains from stomach contents of sperm whales.

The lower beak standard measurement of rostrum length (LRL) 22.0 mm reported for 1.05 m specimen (Rodhouse & Clarke 1985) is considerably shorter than the greatest LRL described for this species, 48.0 mm (a measure taken from the largest beak known from the stomach of sperm whales). Therefore Mesonychoteuthis obviously attains sizes well in excess of 1.05 m ML.

We will soon find out whether these estimates are reliable. If Mesonychoteuthis does attain a mantle length of 4 m, or anywhere approaching it, then it truly will dwarf Architeuthis in terms of length, bulk and certainly 'meaness'; if it attains little more than 2.25 m ML then, although large and ferocious, it will not approach the standard length dimension of Architeuthis (if size and length can be scaled as they have in the accompanying figure).

Watch this space

References
Clarke, M.R. (ed.). 1986: A handbook for the identification of cephalopod beaks. Clarendon Press, Oxford: 1–273.

Nesis, K.N. 1987: Cephalopods of the world (English translation). Tropical Fish Hobbiest (T.F.H.) publications, Neptune City: 1–352.

Rodhouse, P.G.; Clarke, M.R. 1985. Growth and distribution of young Mesonychoteuthis hamiltoni Robson (Mollusca: Cephalopoda): an Antarctic squid. Vie Milieu 35(3/4): 223–230.

http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/download.php?id=87

http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/download.php?id=86

a 7'4" mantle still isant anything to sneeze at even if it turns out not to be the biggest cat at the dance... i do have to confess, a 13' mantle is QUITE difficult to imagine...... any possibilities that you kiwis have some different CEPHappenings than other regions?

Are these the scars of Mesonychoteuthis, or the result of battles with another male sperm whale? There are a few Architeuthis tentacle-club scars there too, if you hunt around a bit.

This animal, the male of 39 feet that stranded in New Zealand late last year, had the remains of 7 Mesonychoteuthis in its stomach. I would not want to tangle with a full-grown Mesonycho!

The photos have been given to us by the New Zealand Department of Conservation, c/o Debbie Freeman. Stunning stuff!

http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/download.php?id=4076

http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/download.php?id=4075

http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/download.php?id=4074

The lfs has agreed to import me a Mesonychoteuthis and have it here by next weekend. Do you think a 55 gallon aquarium will be big enough? I have 2 protein skimmers on it just in case! If not, do you think a pair of Architeuthis will do well in the 55 gallon...I have plenty of hermit crabs to feed them. :lol:

just messin', but very cool information Steve...thanks

here it comes...

BREAKING NEWS

Sighting raises fear of giant killer squid (http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,2371002a11,00.html)

PS -- I just report the news as I hear it! :D

Well... you see what the press have done with the facts. Guess we're stuck studying the 'penguin squid' now... :oops:

We went to great lengths to get the facts straight on this one, preparing a 10+ page fact sheet on the species concerned. There's not one fact in that release. I was asked if they ate penguins, laughed and gave an emphatic NO.

Hopefully the truth will come out over the next few days (believe nothing unless it is the spoken word, and even then question it).

Number of adult specimens reported: 6 (all but one recovered from sperm whale stomachs). Juveniles are not uncommon from surface waters to ~ 1000 m depth.

This species was first described on the basis of two arm (brachial) crowns recovered from sperm whale stomach contents (Robson 1925). Subsequently few specimens have been collected. A sub-mature female of mantle length (ML) 1.25 m is described by Voss (1980), and reference made to two other partial specimens (brachial crowns) in the collections of the United States National Museum, Smithsonian Institution. A further specimen, ML 1.05 m, was trawled in an opening-closing net (RMT8) at a depth of 2000-2200 m (Rodhouse & Clarke 1985). None, to our knowledge, have been reported subsequently.

There is no comprehensive description of the mature adult, male or female, known.

Estimated mantle length: 2-4m; total length to 30 feet.
Based on a combination of beak dimension, and both factory ship and photographic observations, Clarke (1986: 202) suggests Mesonychoteuthis attains a mantle length in excess of 2 m, possibly exceeding 4 m. Nesis (1987) reports mantle lengths of 2.0-2.25 m, but it is uncertain whether these measures are based on actual specimens, or estimates of size based on beak remains from stomach contents of sperm whales. This is a mantle length equivalent to that of the largest of 105 Architeuthis specimens examined by the authors.

The lower beak standard measurement of rostrum length (LRL) 22.0 mm reported for 1.05 m specimen (Rodhouse & Clarke 1985) is considerably shorter than the greatest LRL described for this species, 48.0 mm (a measure taken from the largest beak known from the stomach of sperm whales). Therefore Mesonychoteuthis obviously attains a size considerably exceeding 1.05 m ML.

Refs:

Clarke, M.R. (ed.). 1986: A handbook for the identification of cephalopod beaks. Clarendon Press, Oxford: 1–273.

Nesis, K.N. 1987. Cephalopods of the world (English translation). Tropical Fish Hobbiest (T.F.H.) publications, Neptune City. 1–352.

Robson, G.C. 1925. On Mesonychoteuthis, a new genus of oegopsid, Cephalopoda. Annals and Magazine of Natural History, Series 9, 16: 272-277.

Rodhouse, P.G.; Clarke, M.R. 1985. Growth and distribution of young Mesonychoteuthis hamiltoni Robson (Mollusca: Cephalopoda): an Antarctic squid. Vie Milieu 35(3/4): 223-230.

Voss, N.A. 1980. A generic revision of the Cranchiidae (Cephalopoda: Oegopsida). Bulletin of Marine Science, 30(2): 365-412.

Well... you see what the press have done with the facts. Guess we're stuck studying the 'penguin squid' now... :oops:

so i guess it doesn't fly huh?

No, but it does breathe fire, crawl out of the ocean to steal sheep, follow a complex migratory path through each of the world's oceans in succession and the Panama Canal, and has been known (in addition to the famous BLOOP!) to speak English, Hebrew, Finnish, and occasionally Pig Latin.

:x

Perhaps the release date at the top would suggest that this was, in the truest sense of the term, an April Fool's article. Sigh...

Reporter: "Does it eat pengiuns?"

Steve: "N-!"

Reporter: "Wow, it eats penguins!"

Steve: "Hey, I didn't--"

Reporter: "Geez, if it eats penguins, I'll bet it eats other birds, too! Can it snatch a pelican out of the air?!"

Steve: "Look, you're starting to tick me off...I mean, pelicans don't even--"

Reporter: "My God...these things can snatch large birds in flight...the rumors must be true...they must be able to pull people off boats!!!"

Steve: "(sigh.) Yes. Absolutely."

So that was a Penguin wing (flipper) that needed the wingers sauce.

:nautilus:

maybe tomorrow you should announce that the penguin-eating squid is a completely new species, and name it for burgess meredith....

WAA WAA WAA.... (its hard to spell out that noise he made on batman)

Ok the Giant Squid Fact Sheet has been posted. Let it be known that TONMO.com is the beacon of truth! :heee:

Giant Squid Fact Sheet (http://www.tonmo.com/science/public/giantsquidfacts.php)

"This squid is a really nasty aggressive sort of squid . . . a gelatinous blob with seriously evil arms on it. If you fall in the water, you're history."


Soooooo.......Don't ya love the press???


Carol :mrgreen:

Actually I think can see Steve saying that. Steve: is that a real quote, or is it pure evil in itself?

Actually that one's pretty much verbatim. :)

It's big, it's mean and it's coming your way

http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/dominionpost/0,2106,2375928a6000,00.html
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/marine/

...and real great coverage for Tonmo here:
http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,2375953a11,00.html

oi! pointy head! I leave you alone for a year, and here you come dragging this huge freeking squid in.. <sigh>
can you shoot me a mail when you get the chance?
squidflakes@hotmail.com

From the pictures in the Giant Squid Fact Sheet, it appears that the tentacle club on mesonychoteuthis has two rows of hooks fairly close together. Would (or are) the scars on the sperm whale be double, or do the hooks form a single line as they are drawn across the skin of the whale? Or are they alot farther apart than they look?

Just wondering, and pondering

:nautilus:

Totally amazing!!! And to think....we got teased with it first!!!!! The pictures are amazing! And the hooks...

Really makes you think about these seamonster stories. Hope they don't like New Jersey......


Carol :mrgreen:

always been a bit of a squid fan since snorkelling with them as a kid... caught the Mesonychoteuthis hamiltoni news on BBC website this morning... fascinating.... glad i found this website for the whole story.... love the media hype though, step aside Steve Irwin, here comes Steve O'Shea!!!

Hi all; I'd just like to stress that we are talking adults (as in 2 known prior to this one; one caught by a Russian trawler in the 70's, and one as reported by Rodhouse & Clarke '85). The juveniles have been caught before and are widespread in distribution; intact/entire adults are, however, extraordinarily rare in collections (this should be the 2nd or 3rd reported specimen in collections - (the 2nd/3rd business as we do not know the fate of the Russian specimen)). There are a few preserved arm crowns out there (ex sperm whale stomach contents).

Out
O

Nice...intact Mesonychoteuthis hamiltoni.

CNN Article Link (http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/science/04/03/colossal.squid.reut/index.html)

is this the news you were getting to? Very good stuff. Where is more info?

-Scott

Scott, have you checked out the 'giant squid fact sheets' online (on Tonmo)? There's a lot more information contained in there than has been printed in popular press so far.
Kindest
Steve and Kat

Thanks Steve and Kat. This is a very informative site. I am glad to have come across it yesterday!
Best regards,
-Scott

i had a question about the swiveling hooks....do we know how they're controlled? (individually, in groups, or all at once)

The hooks can all move independently. Whether they actually do is another question... having no recorded observations of them swiveling on a live animal, we don't even know if the animal actively rotates them (whether individually or at once), or whether they just turn all the way around 'so as' (Steve's gonna kill me for suggesting directional evolution) simply not to be pulled out when the prey thrashes. If they were stationary, I think there'd be a greater chance of losing them once the squid had grabbed a presumably struggling Patagonian Toothfish.

Were any of the toothfish it was preying on recovered as well? Maybe the damage on the fish could shed some light on exactly what happens to the CS's prey (although I think I have a pretty good idea already :shock: ), and how it uses its hooks.

Curious what the LRL measurement is on the new Mesonychoteuthis, does anyone have that?
-Casey

Whether they actually do is another question... having no recorded observations of them swiveling on a live animal, we don't even know if the animal actively rotates them (whether individually or at once)

thats more along the lines of my query.... if they are controlled independently, thats an impressive mental/nervous capacity to control all of those hooks.... i dont doubt that theres much to learn about ceph brains, but is there a bit of a hierarchy to the intelligence? (octos then cuttles then squid then nautili or something similar)

Hi Casey, the lower rostral length (LRL) was 37 mm; the max recorded for the species being 48mm, hence our reference to it being submature (or at least nowhere approaching the 'full size' that this animal can attain.
Kindest
Steve

Ok I have a question. It seems according to the tonmo document that this colossal squid is a major part of the diet of the sperm whale. Also, this type of squid is extremely rare. I don't get it. You can't have it both ways, being a major part of a diet of this whale and extremely rare.

Which is it? Thanks!

I believe finding an intact Colossal Squid is whats rare.....the number of beaks in a whales stomach is how they would determine its role as a food source....anyone feel free to correct me if im wrong.....if i remember correctly, it was first identified using an arm and/or tentacle fragment....

I believe finding an intact Colossal Squid is whats rare.....the number of beaks in a whales stomach is how they would determine its role as a food source....anyone feel free to correct me if im wrong.....if i remember correctly, it was first identified using an arm and/or tentacle fragment....

Yep. It's extremely rare in collections (7 total reported specimens including ours) but has to be very common in Antarctic waters to make up 77% by mass of a bull sperm whale's diet (Clarke 1980). Due to the Antarctic being... well, the Antarctic (as in a formiddable set of conditions to brave for a little fishing), there just hasn't been much in the way of encountering or actively seeking this animal for research purposes.


REFERENCE
Clarke, M.R. 1980. Cephalopoda in the diet of sperm whales of the southern hemisphere and their bearing on sperm whale biology. Discovery Reports 37: 1–324.

Yep. It's extremely rare in collections (7 total reported specimens including ours) but has to be very common in Antarctic waters to make up 77% by mass of a bull sperm whale's diet (Clarke 1980). Due to the Antarctic being... well, the Antarctic (as in a formiddable set of conditions to brave for a little fishing), there just hasn't been much in the way of encountering or actively seeking this animal for research purposes.


REFERENCE
Clarke, M.R. 1980. Cephalopoda in the diet of sperm whales of the southern hemisphere and their bearing on sperm whale biology. Discovery Reports 37: 1–324.

Where can I find a copy of this reference? I didn't see it anywhere online, and it seems like we don't carry it at my library (University of Michigan). Thanks!

Yes, you probably won't find them online. Unfortunately the Discovery Reports are rare and expensive - if UMich doesn't have them you may have to interloan from another university (try WI?). :?

Yes, you probably won't find them online. Unfortunately the Discovery Reports are rare and expensive - if UMich doesn't have them you may have to interloan from another university (try WI?). :?

Nevermind I found it, it was in storage not on the shelves.

One question, while I know that sperm whale hunting was restricted in '71 and banned completely about ten years later, the Japanese still hunted those whales for "scientific reasons." So shouldn't there be some more recent publications about squid in the diet of sperm whales from the Japanese?

I'm wondering if anything might have changed since Clark's report, as all his data is from around '67.

Are the hooks keratin or some other type of proteinaceous (sp?) compund?

Re the composition of those hooks, I wouldn't want to say anything without some form of analysis first, and we haven't got anything like this lined up. Sorry.

Re a change in the sperm whale diet since Clarke's earlier work, it is certainly possible. I am convinced that a number of the larger, slower-moving cephalopods that we encounter (or used to) around New Zealand have been or are in the process of being systematically wiped out by large, relatively fast-moving fishing nets. Protecting the whales is one thing, but unless we protect its prey the whole thing is farcical. Ooops, I'm not allowed to express opinions like this.

Admittedly data is poor - all I have to go on is the fact that several large-bodied squid species have all but vanished from our waters (in areas where they once proved common), but I think that temporal changes would be apparent in sperm whale diet composition in New Zealand waters ..... if only we had archival samples (and we don't, and there has been very little work done on sperm whale diet down this neck of the woods).

I don't know what recent information the Japanese have published on the whales diet, but (intuitively) I don't think it would have changed that much in Antarctic waters - there's simply been too little fishing activity down there to alter deep-sea squid population dynamics (unless some other factor is responsible for the observed local changes).

It certainly is worth exploring.
Cheers
O

Steve,

But what really bakes my noodle is that Messie and Archi are apparently top-level predators in their field. My wife made the observation that large hunters on land need to either A) Eat a lot of small prey or B) Eat massive prey. My question is, could there be any MORE giant species of squid out there, and how are such large preds supported in their ecosystem? What are they eating down there?

Also, you and Kat seemed to indicate that the Messie has less ammonia than Archi. Assuming that affects buoyancy, wouldn't that mean that Messie is not only a more mobile beastie, but a more active hunter than Archi? Some time ago, you told me that Archis hang in the water column, using their buoyancy to hang about and simply snatch passing fish... If Messie is a more active hunter, does it chase down its prey? And how much food does it take to fuel these creatures?

What if they're munching on something we don't even know about yet? Is that possible?

And one more question: How much of a role do you think cephs play in the oceanic ecosystems overall? I'm beginning to see an interesting pattern here...

Sushi and Sake,

John

But what really bakes my noodle ......


I never touched your noodle :mrgreen:

.....just getting my posts up (am still a giant gelatinous octopus).

On the basis of smell alone (we have not done any ionic analyses) Architeuthis would appear to have more ammonium ions in the tissues than Mesonychoteuthis (because you can smell it in Architeuthis, but not in Mesonychoteuthis). However, I am referring specifically to ammonium ions in the mantle tissues. Mesonychoteuthis, if anything like other cranchiid squid, has a body/visceral coelom into which ammonium ions are supposedly pumped - and unfortunately this coelom was ruptured in our specimen. It is possible that the fluids therein were highly ammoniacal, but we'll never know (until we get an intact specimen).

You have a ton of other questions there John. I'll have to respond to these at a later date (just a tad pressed for time right now).
Cheers
O

could there be any MORE giant species of squid out there... ?

YES.

... wouldn't that mean that Messie is not only a more mobile beastie, but a more active hunter than Archi? Some time ago, you told me that Archis hang in the water column, using their buoyancy to hang about and simply snatch passing fish... If Messie is a more active hunter, does it chase down its prey? And how much food does it take to fuel these creatures?
What if they're munching on something we don't even know about yet? Is that possible?

Yes, based on the musculature we've observed in Mesonychoteuthis (especially the fins) we think it to be a very active predator. So far its only confirmed prey is Patagonian Toothfish, a 2m fish that (we recently discovered) eats ALBATROSS. (!! :shock:) It's very probably also eating other things, but as the stomach of this specimen was lost in transit, we can't offer any more concrete diet info.

You have a ton of other questions there John. I'll have to respond to these at a later date (just a tad pressed for time right now). Cheers O

Not a problem Steve... Besides, Kat is doing a good job answering them as well (Thanks Kat!). This is exciting, and it does pique my interest on the ecological side as well... Thanks again.

Sushi and Sake,

John

could there be any MORE giant species of squid out there... ?

YES.

... wouldn't that mean that Messie is not only a more mobile beastie, but a more active hunter than Archi? Some time ago, you told me that Archis hang in the water column, using their buoyancy to hang about and simply snatch passing fish... If Messie is a more active hunter, does it chase down its prey? And how much food does it take to fuel these creatures?
What if they're munching on something we don't even know about yet? Is that possible?

Yes, based on the musculature we've observed in Mesonychoteuthis (especially the fins) we think it to be a very active predator. So far its only confirmed prey is Patagonian Toothfish, a 2m fish that (we recently discovered) eats ALBATROSS. (!! :shock:) It's very probably also eating other things, but as the stomach of this specimen was lost in transit, we can't offer any more concrete diet info.


Kat,

What's the evidence the fish eats the big bird? Here's a study from your neck of the woods that doesn't seem to find anything but sea critters in the toothfish diet--although it says the beast is an opportunistic predator.

http://zoo.latrobe.edu.au/sdg/Toothfishdiet.pdf

Are you a icky-thyologist too?


b

Nope, just a Patagonian Teuthologist. ;)

Toothfish preying on albatross may be a relatively rare occurrence (like Architeuthis consuming bits of conspecifics), but it does happen - while sorting specimens at the NZ National Museum Te Papa a few weekends back, we came across a sack of PT stomach contents that contained, among other things, quite a few albatross leg bones.

we came across a sack of PT stomach contents that contained, among other things, quite a few albatross leg bones.

Only leg bones???? could the PT be lurking round just under the surface and chewing on the odd leg??? The reason I ask is that I've just had a trip to the Royal Albatross Colony down here (for you Northerners this is the only mainland breeding colony of Royal Albatross anywhere in the world and is only 15mins drive from the Portobello Lab :mrgreen: Ok so I'm gloating, have to since we don't have a Messie or new cute Kittens for that matter!)

Anyhow, the staff there have noticed a few birds coming in minus a leg. Albs settle on the surface to feed so the legs may look like an easy snack for a PT????????

My :twocents:

J

RE: bird-chomping fish:

Years ago, my family found a large, injured gull on the outer beach of Chatham (Cape Cod), which had lost a portion of its hindquarters to something; given the locale, season and the available suspects, we guessed that it had been mauled at the surface by a bluefish.

:goofysca:

Kat and Steve,

Okay, here's what's been boiling my noodle as of late. Phil and I had an interesting debate in the fossils section of the board. I was saying that cephs seem to be showing a good amount of adaptive radiation across the class, while Phil argued that cephs are apparently not as diverse and may even be on the decline, classwise. I think we're BOTH right, because we were both looking at the cephalopoda from different angles.

My take is, looking at the diversity of the bauplan in the cephalopoda, that large teuthoids and coleoids are not the exception, but the rule. If the deep ocean supports multiple species of large, raptorial predator squid, then the idea that the deep water is sparsely populated doesn't quite make sense. Even if they're eating each other, the fact that Archi and its kindred have a fast growth rate and grow to such large sizes means that they have to have a large supply of good quality nutrition. Deep water isn't heavy on the primary production, lacking sunlight and all, so what exactly is supporting the ecosystem? If its fish, then God help us, because deep sea trawling is going to do them in yet.

I know about the constant rain of detritus from the surface, but somehow there must be more down there... Something we must be missing...

Evolution is a funny thing... A niche forms, then life changes to respond to it. Are squid the top-level preds in the midwater? Why have they evolved to such gigantic size if food is so scarce? Size is the apparent rule here, and if bigger is better then something must be supporting this direction of evolution, but what?

An interesting sidenote: Prey animals are usually the larger species on land. Even in the water, the pred. marine whales (odontocetes) are the smaller of the cetacea. Perhaps some giant whale-sized squid is down there sifting plankton and krill? :lol:

Sushi and Sake,

John

John, we had a meeting with someone yesterday ... one of these super-bright geneticist fellows .... who is going to do some rather sensational work for us. He drew lots of circles and diagrams on our white board (I was impressed - he was lucky to find any space actually) ... but I think what he was trying to get across (in baby talk) is that he can tell us whether a species (based on its genetic diversity, multiplied by this, that, the other, some weird symbols that looked upside down, and a few guesses) is on the decline. This will address one of the major concerns - that of declining/threatened/endangered deep-sea squid/octopus species (a consequence of deep-sea trawling). We're looking at something developing in this area (research programme) over the next 12 months; funding is the problem ... though working, working, working on it.

Re the other questions ... I'll go have a coffee, jump in the car, get to work, and multi-task throughout the day (think about them whilst doing my work).
Cheers ears
O

Steve,

I get what you mean :lol: . I do have an understanding of the basics of genetics, but it was definitely not my best subject. Part of me always felt that the focus on genetics was taking away from the animal as a whole, but I do respect molecular phylogeny, and I do have a lot of respect for those bright fellows who truly understand the science. :grad:

I, however, am not one of them.... :|

Good luck on the funding. Every time someone comes up with a good idea, someone always brings up the budget... :wink:

Sushi and Sake,

John

For all those following this thread, the Giant Squid Fact Sheet has now been converted to a Web page (it was previously a downloadable Microsoft Word .doc file):

Giant and Colossal Squid Fact Sheet (http://www.tonmo.com/science/public/giantsquidfacts.php)

Brilliant! Thank you very much!

Sushi and Sake,

John

.....watch this space

I never touched your noodle :mrgreen:

All I have to say in reply is..... :|

Steve...

You and Kat love tormenting us, don't you? :)

I've read your other posts. I'm dying to know what you've found!

Sushi and Sake,

John

John, wifey is away for 3 weeks in the states. I have 2 options available: have some rest, or bust foofoo valve and try and get a few projects finished. I'm torn between the two right now (rest seems wasteful). Problem is that I've reached a point where there are too many things on, too many competing demands on my time, and I've ground to a halt.

Took last evening (fell asleep in the office) and today off; perhaps some rest is in order.

patagonian toothfish eating albatross legs is a common event during the austral winter - as the sea-ice freezes, the albatross, who have been enjoying a long mild autumn are dozing on the surface - the sudden freeze traps thier legs which subsequently snap off. The legless birds then spend the rest of thier lives soaring behind factory trawlers where they can skim offal from the surface without having to paddle after fleeing prey.

Is this true or are you pulling my leg?

patagonian toothfish eating albatross legs is a common event during the austral winter

And I thought DaDa was dead! Nature is truly wonderful.

Please let this be true...........

John, wifey is away for 3 weeks in the states... I'm torn between the two right now (rest seems wasteful). Problem is that I've reached a point where there are too many things on, too many competing demands on my time, and I've ground to a halt.

Took last evening (fell asleep in the office) and today off; perhaps some rest is in order.

Dude, you need to unplug. If you need some rest, take it. Trust me, you can burn out even on things you love. I hear the surf in Nuzi is choice. Where I come from, I have a problem with that darm hypothermia thing. Or do something else for awhile. Heck, I'm envious about your rank in the marine biology community and all, but I know its work... Hard work that takes up body and mind. Go out. Have fun. We can wait for information. I mean, let's be honest, a lot of scientists I've known wouldn't even bother to post information or even answer our posts. We really appreciate you. And we don't want to see you meltdown.

Let's face it; that's not your destiny... You still have a long role to play in the annals of marine biology.

So have fun. And say hi to "wifey" for me. Tomorrow is my first Father's Day as a father, so I'm pretty stoked. I forgot if you have any kids, but have a happy Father's Day anyway.

Oh, and the Discovery Channel will be showing a new series "Walking With Cavemen" starting tomorrow. Looks cool.

Sushi and Sake,

John

I hear the surf in Nuzi is choice.

i misread this initially and all i could think of was an ed wood caliber horrible movie...

http://us.imdb.com/Title?0094077

back to the subject (kinda) unplugging is definitely sage advice....

:oshea: + :sleeping: (or :beer: or :boat: ) = :thumbsup:

"Surf Nazis"?? :shock:

Actually, one of my favorite films is "Six-String Samurai"... It may not be the BEST movie ever made, but its a +10 on the COOLNESS scale. Its got three things I like: Samurai swords, rock n' roll, and a lot of action. Don't get me wrong, I love "artsy" films and such, but to everything there is a season (turn, turn, turn... sorry, couldn't resist), and there is time for Hong Kong-style, Ang Li, Samuel L. Jackson, Laurence Fishburn, Chow Yun Fat, butt-kicking coolness that you just don't get in everyday life.

Sushi and Sake (that I stole from Japanese Yakuza in a hail of gunfire and special effects that would make the Wachowski Brothers cringe)

John

P.S. Hey Steve, maybe you can get giant squid footage in bullet-time!!

There is no squid....

i just realized this now (boy am i quick) articles is mispelled...or was that intentional to tie in with the polar nature of the find?

hippos are slow

Steve - would I lie to You??!! As a biologist in godzone you MUST have heard the stories of albatross stuck in pack ice.....one of the difficulties studying these events is that if a flock gets stuck, quite often they fly away with the entire packice. This causes a ecosystem collapse as the microalgae using the ice as a medium to grow during the austral winter no longer have a substrate to grow on - no primary productivity, food chain failure and the squid crop fails - leading to massive death rates among the Auckland Island sealion populations and then the government closes the fishery - economic ruin for NZ aarrggghhh......

Steve - would I lie to You??!!

No, but you are certainly capable of pulling my chain. Next you'll be telling me that the intensified frequency of albatross farting during all of this strenuous pack ice redistribution (in the birds northerly migration, feeding and foraging behaviour) is having a greater effect on global warming than the thinning ozone layer.

I think we should explore this some more.

One reason why patagonian toothfish might be found with albatross' bones is because of use longlining fishing use to catch Tuna and Patagoian toothfish. Longlining is when fishing vessels tow huge heavy baited lines. The albatrosses try and eat the bait and get caught on the hook, and dragged down and drown. A dead albatross on a hook would look tasty to a fish. Or one that has fallen off the hook and sinks to the bottom where the patagonian fish lives as well as midwaters.

That's a good point Specks, but only the legs were included in the stomach sample. You would think, if the entire bird was taken down on the end of a hook, that the entire bird would be recovered from the stomach contents.

Maybe this does happen; I'm afraid we have seen very few Patagonian toothfish stomach contents; it was just a comment we made based on a quick observation.
Cheers
O

OMG

This just through (though I don't know who is responsible)

http://www.cafeshops.com/squidzilla

Steve,

Wow.

The Freudian implications of the anti-squid thong are pretty grim.

Put the credit card down, Steve. Just walk away.

:wink:

Clem

It was tempting, I must admit
But me in that thong?

I'd have a fit

Although we haven't posted anything about Mesonychoteuthis for quite a while, it doesn't mean nothing is happening. Here are a couple of pictures of a Meso maquette (Mk II).

Just imagine a life-sized colossal squid swimming next to a diver, being chased by a robotic whale .... In the pic is the chappy (Barry Down) who is making the model (a few more refinements required). The company playing around with rubber squid is 'Glasshammer Visual Effects'. This is going to be :thumbsup: , so watch this space.

http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/download.php?id=895

http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/download.php?id=894

http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/download.php?id=893

Steve,

Will that maquette be used as physical reference model for some nifty digital animation?

Clem

.... Hmmmmm, I was a bit naughty posting those online, coz now people are going to ask questions ....

It is a template in the making for a life-sized robotic Meso, but as we're not prepared to let our Meso out of the office (to get it covered in dust, and played with by all and sundry, as a reference specimen), and because it is damaged, the maquette is a work in prep. The nuchal cartilage/fushion, and two areas where the mantle fuses to the funnel, need to be added to the model, the arms trimmed to their appropriate lengths, then built up and endowed with their suckers and hooks, the eyes need the lenses (and a little more work), but in general, bearing in mind this is the earliest stage in a model's construction, it is not looking that bad at all. Mk I was hilarious ... a bad dream!

For those of you who have no experience making one of these things, or with special effects crews, the final Meso will not be an inflexible hunk of green foam, and the arms will not be strands of wire. We'll post the next stage online soon (it is developing away nicely).

Cheers
O

Hi gang,
We've just been out to the studio where they're building the models and filming the Face Off series. They've made the full-size polystyrene model now and wanted us to take a look at it... I guess all I will say is, we were impressed. :)

Everyone should have one!

http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/download.php?id=1042

http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/download.php?id=1043

http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/download.php?id=1044

Here are a few more...

http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/download.php?id=1045

http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/download.php?id=1046

http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/download.php?id=1047

... and a few other models they've made for this series.

http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/download.php?id=1048

http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/download.php?id=1049

http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/download.php?id=1050

:notworth: all around. The eyes are that big? Wow.

Thanx for sharing.

Tintenfisch,

That's really something. When will it start to move?

Also: where's the animatronic penguin?

:wink:

Clem

Also: where's the animatronic penguin?



That is a good point. Do we get an animatronic Patagonian Toothfish too?

Seriously, this animal looks utterly terrifying. Has the model been made to the estimated fully grown adult size of Mesonychoteuthis? It looks larger than the photos I have seen of your specimen.

Are the eyes really that large? Or will they be covered in a fleshy membrane which will reduce the appearance of the overall size?

Are the eyes really that large? Or will they be covered in a fleshy membrane which will reduce the appearance of the overall size?

Oh, they're that large, all right. Can you imagine looking into a live one?! And this model was built to the specs of our specimen from April - DML is about 2.7m, and we do believe it could grow to 4m. So... this is just a baby. :)

:meso:

At last, science discovers eyes that actually fit Elton John's sunglasses.

They're pretty far out (those eyes). We've had to 'scale them' from a small Mesonychoteuthis (mantle length ~ 0.9 m) [this had HUGE eyes], and from another, similar looking cranchiid squid, Teuthowenia pellucida, because the eyes on the large brute we had earlier this year were missing/extensively damaged. The animal you see is a composite squid, but until we see it live, in situ, we'll not be able to do anything else.

There is so much work that still needs to be done to that model; an edited pic attached will give you an idea what happens next.

The eye lens (a substantial bulbous dome - probably a little too large as illustrated in yellow - in reality will be a clear dome) will protrude from the flattened face of the eye. The mantle and funnel both need to be excavated (black), and the hooks and suckers attached to the face of the arms. The tentacles on the model need to be thinned somewhat, and a webbing between the base of the 3rd and 4th arms run around the base of the tentacle. I'm rather limited in my choice of colours, and what can be done (on MS Paint ... obviously I don't have a career in computer graphics), but the whole thing will be painted, with a surface texture on the mantle much like an orange skin.

In 'at work.3' I've shortened the arms (the strings you see in the original are just to hold the animal together; the arms terminate at length ~ as shown).

They'll make a resin cast of this puppy yet - a couple of days away we should have the next stage ready to show you.

http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/download.php?id=1057

http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/download.php?id=1056

Here's the next incarnation of the Mesonychoteuthis model. They're supposed to have it cast by Friday...

:meso:

http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/download.php?id=1183

http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/download.php?id=1184

http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/download.php?id=1185

... continued ...

http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/download.php?id=1186

http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/download.php?id=1187

http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/download.php?id=1188

Kewl!

J

Kreepy!

U

... Oh, and Steve getting to know the sound guy. :twisted:

http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/download.php?id=1189

http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/download.php?id=1190

http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/download.php?id=1191

:lol:

Is that :oshea: ? He looks different. Haircut?

Yep... first one in about six months... he was having to wear a baseball cap to keep it out of his eyes. Common sense and an aversion to Cousin It finally won out. :)

i looked back but couldnt find it, what is the diameter of the models eyes?

Hmm... maybe ~ 24"? 70 cm?

:cyclops:

70cm? hmmmm...that would make TTF pretty tall.

With the heels that is.

..... with legs that go all the way up to her armpits :heee:

Joel,

I've just found some photos put up on Bimmini Special Effects Studios' site, showing a 45' giant squid model (http://www.bimmini.com/photos.htm) they produced for the Singapore Science Center. (Scroll down the linked page to see three images of the thing.) The squid looks like a composite of Mesonychoteuthis (the leaf-shaped tail) and Architeuthis. Bimmini's CV says the model was produced in 2001. Have you seen it?

Clem