Hi. I've just recently been entranced by the octopus and now I really admire their design. I'm a game art student, and what I'm doing here is trying to make and animate one in Maya (3D).... of course low-poly (PS2-XBox quality) not Motion Picture quality, because that's not what I'm trained in, nor what I'm going for.

Here's what I've roughed out so far (please note this is the models default tentacle setup. They probably look awkard, but will be moved into a more natural position once I add it's rig (skeleton). But for now they cannot be moved, only reshaped.

http://www.brokenmachine.net/prev_persp.gif
http://www.brokenmachine.net/prev_front.gif
http://www.brokenmachine.net/prev_side.gif

I'm hoping some of you can help me correct the flaws in my design.

Things I've noted (from photo references):

-The top of the mantle is flatter than the bottom, and overal appears bottom-heavy. I tried to portray that.

-The eyes may be too oval (vertically)?

-My version of the mantle may be too smooth. If it needs humps/lumps, please let me know.

-No siphon gills! I haven't modeled them yet, because I haven't yet found a clear photo of them.

If you have any crits please include links of photos to show me your point. THANKS!

I can't wait to texture this thing's eyes. Horizontal iris' are so cool. :mrgreen:

Wow, this is very cool. Thanks for sharing... looking forward to seeing where this thread goes... Let's dive in here, folks!

Howdo Monkeywrench. Looks great, sincerely (I wish I could do what you have done), but there's a major problem with the constriction behind the eyes (where the mantle actually joins the head and funnel).

Don't worry about the text at the following link, but the pics should help (it will become immediately apparent). I'll post more soon.
Steve

Check out http://www.tonmo.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3544

tonmo: Thanks!

Steve O'Shea: Thanks for the crit. From what I can see from your sketches, my eyes protrude too much in the back, and where the mantle joins the rest of the octopus is too narrow. So, octopuses only have 1 siphon gill? I thought they had two.. :confused:

MonkeyW, no, your eyes don't protrude too much at all. The three sketches I directed you to were of Benthoctopus - a deep-sea thing. I've seen many a shallow-water octopus have eyes just as you depict; they can depress them considerably (they're not always 'out on stalks').

Just the single mid-ventral siphon (a few 'made in China' rubber octopus have two siphons). Within the mantle (the sac at the back) there are two gills. You needn't worry about octopus anatomy (gills/mantle cavity internal detail) - you'd go quite insane unless you had a dead specimen (fishmart) before you to make heads or tails out of words.

The mantle cavity is open to the seawater; you'll find a lip extending almost from one eye to the other on the ventral side - you could stick your finger in this cavity and run it freely from one eye to the next. I suggest you go get a specimen from a fish shop/fishmart to come to terms with it. It is, as you now can see, too narrow (where the mantle fuses with the head).

Thanks again. I'll look into all of that. Had no idea about the lip, that's interesting. I'll have to add that. Too bad I just read your second crit now. Oh well, here's today's update anyways. The head is generally wider now also.

http://www.brokenmachine.net/octopusWIP2c.jpg
http://www.brokenmachine.net/octopusWIP2b.jpg

And here's the reference I used for the tube gill things:

http://www.aug.edu/~sbajmb/pictures/Best-of-Bonaire-2002-Web/10.jpg

Order of magnitude better! The funnel (aka siphon) is attached to the ventral surface of the head. I'm without pics (late at night, at home); more to come, but I'll need a couple of days. Surely someone else has pics that they can post also.

It's getting late here too. I'll work on it more in the morning. Thanks for the comments :)

Can octopi "orbit" their eyeballs? I've noticed the direction of their iris is almost always different from picture-to-picture.

Ok I started working on the lip based on this picture:

http://www.brokenmachine.net/Cb0163.jpg

http://www.brokenmachine.net/lipWIP.jpg

Which colored line should I use to finish the flow of the lip? (I can't see that part in any of my reference pics.)

Nice model there MonkeyWrench. 8-)
I'm looking forward to seeing some renders of it once it's been textured.
Are you going to be painting the texture maps or let Maya generate them?

Incidentally, you've come to the best and friendliest place around for ceph info. I found Tonmo while looking for reference pics for a model of architeuthis that's still in the works.

--Carl
http://protask.nl.eu.org/~dennis/emoticons/div34.gif

CarlS: Thanks a lot. I will be painting the textures and I'll create a bump and perhaps a spec map.

Here's the latest. Probably going to hold off until I can get an idea of what the siphon looks like.

http://www.brokenmachine.net/currentPersp.jpghttp://www.brokenmachine.net/currentSide.jpg

(topology) (http://www.brokenmachine.net/currentTopology.jpg)

Tomorrow I'll post pics of a 'typical' octopus (a dead/preserved one), then incise the ventral midline of the mantle so that you can see how the funnel connects to the head and viscera (rather than the ventral mantle wall). I'm just a bit stretched on something else right now; sorry.

:shock: That would be an ideal asset to my project. If you could just lift the mantle and get a good shot of the ventral side, I would be very pleased. You don't have to cut up one of your specimins if it's not absolutely necessary. I'd hate for you to wreck one for my sake.

Be more selfish! It's :oshea:'s duty to edify us, man. Nice work so far, Monkeywrench.

Sorry 'bout the delays here ... am busting foofoo on a few too many things.

Attached, various images on Pareledone sp. (Antarctic octopus). You'll see the lovely blue sky that we're experiencing in the background, and too much shadow in crucial places!! Video camera doesn't have flash - curses!

The key to the 3rd image is:
1 - cut mantle musculature (pushed aside)
2 - interpallial septum (musculature that attaches the ventral surface of the mantle to the viscera; extends the dorso-ventral axis of the mantle, partially separating it into two chambers)
3 - renal (kidney) tissue
4 - gill (x 2)
5 - adsiphonal pouch (one either side of the funnel)
6 - region where the mantle attaches to the lateral surface of the head
7 - eye
8 - funnel
9 - penis

Hope it helps; I'll try and do some in better lighting, but I don't have access to a dead littoral octopus at this exact point in time. This animal (a museum specimen) would appear to have been thrust into preservative alive .... hence its somewhat unhappy (albeit life like) posture.

Thank you very much Steve! I have been studying these photos for a long time. Nothing short of eye candy. Unfortunately I've only had 1h rest Wednesday night, so I won't be modeling tonight (but I am psyched!). I will start up again after classes Friday. Thanks for slightly varying the angles, that really helps. And the texture on this little guy is stunning. Also, a facinating third picture! It's all coming together :) Structurally I can see how everything fits into place now.

Thanks again.




Yaay.

No worries MW; there's a series of pics of a live octopus that I can lay my sticky little hands on, and will post shortly (we put a male named 'Stumpy' [missing several legs] in with a female named 'Slime' [don't ask], and the two of them did the rumpy pumpy for a week). 'Stumpy' was released, and 'Slime' has since layed eggs .... so the thread will be along those lines (Octopus culture). It'll be interesting to see how we go. We should have it online by mid next week; eggs are presently a week old, so I estimate 3 more weeks before they hatch.

Be more selfish! It's :oshea:'s duty to edify us, man.
You are truly a most dark and dastardly, positively wicked fellow, Oh dear Right Honourable Regal-Footed Sir Dr Ummm.......

:heee:

It makes you great, so you shouldn't complain. :notworth:

This model is going to be so sweet.

This model is great.

Joints:
1)How are you rigging the mantle to the joints in the arms? I have been trying to make an animate-able octo model (with MilkShape 3D 1.7.0 :oops:...), and keep having the the mantle stretch at odd angles.
2)How are you attaching the joints to the arms? I can't seem to get the arms to keep the image flexability in animation, and it ends up looking like a multi-jointed stick-figure.

Thanks!
(Be warned; more questions ahead. (I've been trying to do this for over a month...))

Cephkid: I'm not entirely sure, because I haven't started rigging yet. I built a small rig, but only to raise the mantle slightly, not to animate. I don't anticipate problems, but mimicking a tight tentacle curl would be impracticle and require too many joints (for a game model), so I will probably avoid that.

I haven't used MilkShape, but it sounds like some of the verts in your mantle may be being influenced by the wrong joints. Check your weighting.

We should work together on this. It's cool that I've already found 2 other people trying to bring 3D justice to cephs. :mrgreen:

Do you use MSN? PM me your address if you do.

Thanks for the inspiration guys! :smile:

Here's a small update. I'm still working on the suckers, they will run the whole length of the tentacle when done.

http://www.brokenmachine.net/octo10a.gif
http://www.brokenmachine.net/octo10b.gif

Let me know if you think the gills, adsiphonal pouch, or funnel need to be shifted at all.

Oooops; still have to get rid of one of those siphons (the one poking straight at us). The mid ventral siphon & adsiphonal pouch are spot on. I hate to say this, but work is needed on the suckers .... they don't taper as is shown in one of the earlier images (that would have taken a long time to do); it depends on how accurate you want to be. More pics to follow.

lol Now I'm really confused. Is the tube in these photos not a gill? I thought they had 2 (1 on either side) and 1 siphon that runs down the back?

http://www.cephbase.utmb.edu/imgdb/images/Cb0163.jpg
http://divegallery.com/octopus.jpg

Maybe I've been tricked. Has the siphon been curled around and pointed at the camera in all these photos? :oops: I was following your reference Steve, I just thought that some species had overdeveloped gills (protruding tubes) but I guess that's the siphon LOL. *sigh*

Also if you're referring to the way the suckers on the tentacle stop 2/3 of the way down, I mentioned they're not complete yet.

I'm still working on the suckers, they will run the whole length of the tentacle when done.
But if it's more than that, please clarify. Thanks :smile:

Afraid the 'tube' in the photo is the siphon; you'll not see the gills (they're inside the mantle cavity - that big lumpy sac at the back).

The shape of the suckers in cross section is quite different to that depicted in your graphic. I'm hunting around here for some old illustrations that I did .... hold on.

Here we go; same old story ... lack of flash (I have to win Lotto to get some proper gear!!!!)

The memoir (something in 1999, 280pp long; out of print; cover pic of Pinnoctopus cordiformis, with the funnel pointing straight at you), page view of suckers in cross section, and CU in cross section. I'll have to dissect some suckers to show you the real thing, but cannot be today - really have too much on right now; sorry. For a littoral (shallow water/coastal) species of octopus you really should design your suckers similar to those in Figure A (the majority of other sucker sections are from deeper-water species)

Ooooops, and the suckers should also ALTERNATE - they are not in opposite pairs (zigzag rather than paired). That's really going to make you miserable isn't it. :sad:

Ooooops again - another important thing I forgot. The suckers in the mid-portion of each arm are larger than those elsewhere on the arm. They start off very small around the beaks, in a very loose zig-zag pattern (widely distributed), then by the 6th-7th sucker rapidly increase in size, get closer together (but still alternate), gradually increasing to the mid-point of each arm, thereafter gradually decreasing to the arm tips. Those at the tips of the arms are really tiny - smaller than those around the beaks (half the diameter). Your pic has them gradually decreasing from the base of the arm.

Ooooops :) Thanks Steve! You're the man.

You're right, the tentacles really aren't being represented very well at all. I've been VERY sternly criticized by a friend in the videogame industry for wasting so many polygons on them.... and they're little more than extruded boxes right now. As is, even with those crappy boxy suckers, it's still too wasteful in polys even for Half-Life 2.

So what I'm probably going to do is create a super highpoly version (for GI shadowmaps.. Cephkid and CarlS know what I'm talking about). The final model will have the tentacles removed completely, but they *should* in theory appear to still be there.

I will post updates soon.

I have a friend that enjoys playing with Maya and Flash, I should tell him what you are doing.

Best of luck,
Squidman

Here we go; same old story ... lack of flash (I have to win Lotto to get some proper gear!!!!)
happy to volunteer my camera if it helps, sir!

TPOTH

And this is the line that the mantle should follow, attaching close to the ventro-lateral face of the head/eye.

tentacle test.

http://www.brokenmachine.net/tentacleTest.gif

They are offset now, but when that offset is repeated 100s of times, it looks lined up again. That's the best I can do for now..

Edit: The suckers would probably be a lot smaller near the end, but again that's the best I can do for now. I'm looking for a better videocard. The suckers are starting to chug my system, and I've only dealt with one so far. x8 might be nuts.

OK - just one word.

FAN-BL**DY-TASTIC!!!!!!!!!!

... excuse my ignorance, but are you able to make that thing move? (like in the end product and all?). If so it will be the best thus far!

I really am impressed (I've done a lot of animatic work before, as consultant, and haven't seen anything so well done, or done so fast!!).

:mrgreen: Technically I made it move to set it in that position. I'll try to do some swim cycles when I'm done.

When are some of you talented folks going to make me a dissectable 3D cephalopod? I'd expect the giblets to be a helluva lot of fun to model.

(I've done a lot of animatic work before, as consultant,

The things we learn... i knew that technology impaired demeanor was a just front!
Can't see the tentacle :cry:

TPOTH