Anyone want to tell me what squid this came from :D

It's a hook taken from one of the arms.

.....more to be revealed .... soon

http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/download.php?id=4101

Its been a long time. Well i guess it belongs to a colossal squid :meso:

That would be my guess as well, but it would seem the punch line will not be quite so simple. Do tell more!

Nope, not the colossal squid I'm afraid (this particular hook is at least twice the length of those on the colossal squid :goofysca: ).

Should be published ~ August 2003 (is 'in press' right now); it's used for something pretty horrible. :yuck:

You'll probably hear about it when it's finally out.

Moroteuthis robusta?

..... getting colder :mrgreen:

This thing (both hook and squid) are without parallel - pretty sensational find in fact. There are quite a number of 'giant' squid out there :tentacle:

grrrrrrrrt!!! :x You're lucky you're on the other side of the planet. :D

Kondakovia longimana, the giant warty squid???? :?:

http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/files/peri5.gif
Egad!!
I just popped up for a look and what do I find? Dr O has found a big hook!

How big is the hook Dr O? And can you give us a clue as to how big the giant killer squid is that had this thing attached to it's arm???

is it used by Halpoteuthis ferox as a bottle opener?

as for a real guess, is it used in some kinky mating activity?

:cthulhu: :heart: :beer:

Seriously: Is there any point in us guessing? If this is a new species then we'll never get it! :shock:

Silly: Is this a Sperm Whale toothpick?

Quite correct (he says safe and secure in an office in the southern hemisphere, pulling faces 8) ). This has come from a squid that is not supposed to have hooks (it is quite a well-known squid, in that it was described in ..... hmmmmmm ...... don't want to give anything away ..... quite a long time ago). Ja, it's pretty bizarre!

..... but you want to see what we found out in Tasmania :goofysca:

http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/files/peri5.gif
Egad!!
I just popped up for a look and what do I find?

Where'd this cool periscope come from?????

Looks like GeoffC found that periscope somewhere in the Internet ether, good find! I'll add it to the smilies list, along with a few others I've been meaning to add...

GeoffC sure did stumble on a good one there. I just took a wee squiz at your profile there Geoff, noting you're an archaeologist, with interests in paleontology and natural history (there was a third interest there I recall but I'm getting old and forgetful). Pretty cool. Ever found any squid beaks, gladius or hooks at any midden site/dig, or are you familiar with any such finds?

Might be a subject worthy of discussion.
Cheers
O

GEOFFC!

It may be non-ceph but tell please us all about your elephant bone you found in a 13th century pit in Chester (UK). Elephants were unknown in the UK then, obviously.

Perhaps best do this on another topic though; I don't really want to sidetrack this interesting discussion.

(We studied archaeology together, me and Geoff, and have dug on a few of the same sites together).

Yo Steve
Now you've got us all hooked in - what journal will you be publishing in? :oshea:

Tiz in the Journal of the Marine Biological Association of the UK (JMBA), or something like that. August I recall (expected); we'll see. My lips are sealed until then :mrgreen:

Kvestchons kvestchons olveys kvestchons

Where'd this cool periscope come from?????
:periscop:
Hi Dr O, Peri the Scope? :oops: Actually he's my own creation, he may get to do other stuff in the future but for now he's just scopin' Glad you like him.

I'll add it to the smilies list
Thanks Tony

Hi Phil
I'll post you a reply about Medieval elephants on the fossil board (cos it's r'elephant here :jester: - originally from Duck Soup Tani informed us a while ago but worth another mention I say)

Cheers peeps

But back to the hook, in land animals I think you can tell a great deal about them from their teeth and claws, what they eat, if they hunt and maybe how they catch their food, does it work like that with squid/octopus hooks?

Inquiring minds need to know!
Geoff

I think the hook belongs to Taningia Danae. I know this isn't really a giant squid. But I figured since it doesn't have feeding tentacles it might need a good grip on prey.But I doubt this is correct :?

Nope, not Taningia I'm afraid.

Am working on another specimen of 'giant Octopoteuthis' (we now have a male and a female), the description of which will require us to look at/describe the hooks of Taningia in greater detail (for comparison). We'll be able to post some interesting (I hope) illustrations of these hooks in a few months (and will probably throw in a few onychoteuthid, enoploteuthid and cranchiid [e.g., Mesonychoteuthis] hooks, just for comparison - a wee TONMO special).

I'd be very surprised if anyone figured out what 'Mystery squid 1' was - that's why I placed it online (although a few people that reviewed the manuscript will know).
Cheers
O

Probably wrong again but Octopoteuthis Danae? Since it has the same "last name" I thought it could be it

Nope again.
You can exclude any genus/species in the following families:
Enoploteuthidae
Onychoteuthidae
Ancistrocheiridae
Octopoteuthidae
Cranchiidae
Gonatidae (these can have a magnificent hook in the tentacle club)
:heee:

:x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x
I give up!! I think I'll just wait :)

Well, crap.

I was going to suggest some freakishly large gonatid as the owner of the hook, such as Gonatopsis makko (the hook looks a lot like a Mako shark's tooth). In fact, the item in question isn't very hook-like at all, being rather more like a spine, so perhaps it's function is to puncture, but not to grasp.

Steve, this isn't a trick-question, is it? The item came from the arm of a squid not known to have hooks...used for something horrible...is this hook evidence of an interspecies riveting?

I'll just sit here quietly until August.

:roll:

Clem

The hooks are found only on the male of the species; there are two of them, one on each dorsal arm. We believe they are used by the male to get 'purchase' on the female, twice his size, as he does his evil business. Indeed, they are more like spines.

Terrible that in this day and age the male of a species is only just being described; someone thought they had done it before .... but, alas, they had not.

Would make for a sensational documentary animatic (part of the plan).

We've just found another species of squid with a really bizarre reproductive technique - am working that one up now. What some of these animals do to each other is quite frightening; I'd sooner be a male preying mantis!

The hooks are found only on the male of the species; there are two of them, one on each dorsal arm. We believe they are used by the male to get 'purchase' on the female, twice his size, as he does his evil business...Would make for a sensational documentary animatic (part of the plan).

Ooohh, a heretofore undescribed male of the species...that's a fine hint.

This cryptic beast's mating would certainly make for a fine bit of CG nature porn. "Squid Gone Wild!"

Tonight, on Discovery After Dark.

:wink:

Clem

... as he does his evil business.

Would make for a sensational documentary animatic (part of the plan).

We've just found another species of squid with a really bizarre reproductive technique - am working that one up now. What some of these animals do to each other is quite frightening; I'd sooner be a male preying mantis!

Steve,

Several species of spider use dances and movement to get the attention of the ladies. One wrong move, though, and he's lunch. But how's this: some species of anglerfish actually have the male as a much smaller form that attaches itself parasitically to the female. In the end, he becomes an extention the female's external anatomy; a sort of ambulatory penis, if you will.

Oh, I can just imagine what some women are thinking of saying right now... I heard the most evil male-bashing comments from some fellow students during a guest lecture on this subject. :lol: All in fun though. Honestly though, sexual reproduction seems to be risky business no matter what in what phylum you choose. My baby woke me up today by hooking his fingers into my nostrils and pulling. Happy Father's Day, huh?

Schweet deal on the findings! I hope you find even more interesting things!

Sushi and Sake,

John

P.S. Oh, and "evil business"?! Dude..... :mrgreen:

..... all shall be revealed in August I believe.

:x
.....I'm afraid it's not in the August issue of JMBA; having reviewed the page proofs and all this is all a little frustrating. I guess all shall be revealed in October!

Pity; the squid is :goofysca: .

I'm going crazy with some squid id's in Hawaii ... they're from tuna guts.
I've been placing a lot of squids in Histioteuthis based on distinctive photophores - oval with a light spot on one side. Then I get a small batch that have hooks ... uh oh. :bonk: The beak has more of a ridge (like Enoploteuthid) than a fin (like Histioteuthis), but they're small so I could be wrong. So body of Histioteuthis and arms and beak of Enoploteuthis? I never found a good picture of photophores of E.higginsi or E.reticulata so I just figured I got a ton of my Histioteuthis id's wrong and had to go dig them all up ... unless you've just found a Histioteuthis with hooks (oh please, oh please)!!

I'm going crazy with some squid id's in Hawaii ... they're from tuna guts.
I've been placing a lot of squids in Histioteuthis based on distinctive photophores - oval with a light spot on one side. Then I get a small batch that have hooks ... uh oh. :bonk: The beak has more of a ridge (like Enoploteuthid) than a fin (like Histioteuthis), but they're small so I could be wrong. So body of Histioteuthis and arms and beak of Enoploteuthis? I never found a good picture of photophores of E.higginsi or E.reticulata so I just figured I got a ton of my Histioteuthis id's wrong and had to go dig them all up ... unless you've just found a Histioteuthis with hooks (oh please, oh please)!!

Hi Gayla. I can promise you that no species of Histioteuthis (to my knowledge) has hooks on any part of the arms or tentacles. You are actually in one of the luckiest places on Earth as you have the recently retired Prof. Richard (Dick) Young right there - a cephalopod guru.

Is there any way that you could post some images online - we can get to the bottom of this in no time. I'm pretty sure I have a few paralarval Histioteuthis pics around that I can post (I just have to find them), and a few others of other squid that you might be confusing them with.

Are the hooks found on the arms in 2 rows, and on the tentacle clubs (Enoploteuthidae)

Are the arms beset with 2 rows of suckers, and at ML's > 12 mm the tentacles armed with 2 rows of hooks (the medial rows), with the marginal rows being simple suckers (Onychoteuthidae).

Are there 4 rows of suckers/hooks on the arms - as in the medial 2 rows of hooks on arms 1-3 with another row of suckers either side these hooks (Gonatidae)

If the mantle is studded with small photophores then you most likely have Histioteuthis spp. These paralarvae are very distinctive!

But there are many different kinds of squid, as you very well know.

Have you a copy of:
Sweeney, M.J.; Roper, C.F.E.; Mangold, K.M.; Clarke, M.R.; Boletzky, S.v. (eds) 1992. "Larval" and juvenile cephalopods: a manual for their identification. Smithsonian Contributions to Zoology 513: 282pp.

If not then it is essential that you get a copy.

If you post some images online I'm sure we can help out.
Kindest
Steve

Thanks for the info ...
I will certainly look up the reference. Hopefully I can get some pictures for you soon. I did say small, but I didn't mean that small - they aren't paralarvae. They are about 2-3 cm. long. The arms are quite damaged in most of my specimens, so suckers and hooks are often lost. I'll take a closer look tomorrow and see if I can figure out the configuration. Seems like the tentacles digest off first. I rarely get a club with anything worthwhile on it.
Thanks for your time! You are quite generous with it on these boards ... you must not sleep :madsci:
Not me ... time to :sleeping:

Gayla

Hi Gayla. Playing squid detective is going to be fun! Partially digested squid (stomach contents) are fun to identify, because you have to look for new characters/states to identify them (not the usual line up of characters/states that you'll find in cephalopod descriptions). At 2-3cm (whether total or mantle length) you'll have no problems at all identifying your creatures; we might have to look at characters of the beak and gladius to do so, and the actual shape of the hooks, and/or sucker-ring dentition, if either have survived the digestive process (as both are rather variable characters in squid), but identifications at least to genus will be easy. In fact, one of the first things Tintenfish and I will do when she is back online (a day away) is get some comparative hook illustrations online. They differ demonstrably between different families, and in many instances genera within families, so that you will be able to identify your critters easily.
Cheers
Steve

Hmmmmm. Steve just checked out your website link Gayla. What has stomach contents of tuna got to do with Octopus cyanea? I notice also that you have an interest in squid beaks!! Now have I got a research topic for you!!

Is the research that you are doing part of a Masters or PhD programme, or research leading up to either?
Cheers
Me

I'm working on O. cyanea for my MS thesis work, but it's not paying my salary. There's a tuna diet study going on in our lab, and I'm hired on to manage the database and id the ceph contents. Luckily someone else is doing all those nasty cruchy animals - the fish and shrimpy stuff. I haven't done squid id's before, so it's been a great experience so far, and since they only want them to family it hasn't been as overwhelming as it could be.
I have most of the Sweeney et al. here but haven't used it as much as the FAO catalogue (I had to print it out from the pdf on the web). I definitely need to review my id's with Sweeney.
I don't think I'll be able to get pictures of the specimens I was asking about soon since I'm trying to get field work with my cyanea started tomorrow. But, with fresher eyes today I found a specimen in the pile with a club intact - and full of hooks. I still couldn't tell if there were two rows of hooks on the arms since they were beaten up and flattened out, but there were definitely all hooks and no suckers. I also found a Histioteuthis so I could compare the photophores of the two. Now I see the big difference. Oh well ... just learning here :roll: .
I guess I was just at a roadblock last night when I read about this Mystery squid! I should have known I just needed some sleep.
Thanks for going to the website. Hopefully I'll have some of the work I've done posted on there in the next month or so. I'm a lone cepher surrounded by sharks!

Thanks again for your feedback and time!

Gayla

..... and 'Mystery squid 1' was .....

Should I keep you in suspense any longer .... it's almost public domain. You've got a week-or-so left to guess.

Ah, why the torture, but i guess we can wait.

Lepidoteuthis grimaldii?

Neil

. :shock: ... why hello there um........ Interesting handle you have (wish I'd thought of it first .... I'll have to settle for duh....... :wink: )

Bingo, spot on, Lepidoteuthis grimaldii. As I sat there this morning, as I do on occasion, I noted variable spelling of grimaldii in a paper due out in a few weeks (we use grimaldi and grimaldii interchangeably :cry: ) These things happen.

How'd you guess?

Cool.

I spent (almost) all morning looking through the 'Decapodiformes' group at the Tree of Life (http://tolweb.org/tree if anyone needs to know). Teuthology is one of the many, many things that are much more interesting than my job. :sleeping: The info in the Lepidoteuthidae section described L. grimaldi(i) as a large-ish squid with no hooks that's been known for a while, although rather poorly. It fit with your clues, so I guessed. I did a search at Google and got this hit:

http://www.tonmo.com/oshea.php

L. Grimaldi and JMBA appear together near the bottom of the select bibliography, right before that thing about 'Unique saber-like hooks of a large deep-sea squid'. I was thus convinced.

By the way, it is very cool sort of talking to you. :notworth: I've been a fan since 1999 or so, after reading Ellis' book on Architeuthis.

Neil

Must be hard trying to find the squid, I spent the whole night looking for names also from the treee of life but all was wrong.

:police:

:oshea: + :oshea: :arrow: :alarm:

/ time passes /

:shock: :!:

umm... is not an alternate persona of :oshea:

:oops:

Certainly not.

:(

Neil

Right, sorry... series of odd coincidences... :oshea: joked about taking a pseudonym... but we certainly are nowhere near the Great White North.

Nice work on Lepidoteuthis by the way.

:roll:

Although being some artefact of :oshea: 's fractured psyche (or some kind of joke) would be a vast improvement.

Corporate semi-zombiehood has yet to display an upside.

Neil

Corporate semi-zombiehood has yet to display an upside.

Drat, I'm so close to trying it!

Melissa