RESEARCH OPPORTUNITY: comparative study of palatine teeth

[Steve O'Shea]

Ed: Feb 2008. I just thought that I'd resurrect this thread on the offchance someone out there wanted to undertake a comparative study of these structures as part of a Masters degree. I've left all other thread content as it was/as posted from day 1. Some aspects of this research have been covered in various papers since, and some shortly will be, but the bulk of it, a large-scale comparative study, never has been undertaken. Any takers?.

I'm taking a huge gamble in placing these images online. An ever-so-slighty exciting opportunity exists for someone to research comparative morphology of palatine teeth in cephalopods, both octopus and squid, linking this to diet, and describing ontogenetic shifts in their structure (in accordance with changes in diet throughout a species life cycle).

No project of this nature has ever been undertaken before; it is a world first.

I've attached a few 'modified' images here (some duplicated in Fossils & History, in a thread titled 'Challenge') to show you what you can expect to see with SEM microscopy (similar images, although not as detailed, can be obtained with light microscopy).

I am certain the shape and distribution of these radular-like structures is of both systematic and ecological significance. The project would involve describing these structures across all cephalopod taxa that we have here (very diverse collections), and examination of squid stomach contents, to ascertain any link between their density, form and distribution and the squid's diet.

Exciting stuff!! Suitable for Masters (if you have some experience) or PhD.

Just a selection of pics follow.

The first image is of the buccal mass, with beaks and beak musculature removed (of the arrow squid, Nototodarus). The radula is pretty obvious, below the salivary papilla. Running down, either side of the buccal mass are the palatine palps, upon the inner face of which you will see dagger-like projections (the palatine teeth). The other two images are close ups of these palatine and true radular teeth in two taxa (a rather large, unknown species of squid; and Nototodarus). They also occur in some species of 'octopus', Vampyroteuthis and most all other octopus and squid taxa (in fact their absence is extremely interesting, and must reflect some specialised diet).

An additional radular-like tooth is sometimes found in the salivary papilla of hole-drilling octopus species; there's so much that we haven't looked at in octopus and squid systematics; the world is your oyster!

[um...]

:shock:

I had no idea that any of that stuff existed. Neat!

[tonmo]

:notworth: Too cool. 8)

Sounds like a great project, with significant potential for real and meaningful discovery. I wanna play! :D

[cthulhu77]

Doctor, once again you have proven yourself to be a most noble person...very, very cool.

[Jean]

Waaay cool must have a look at my arrows!

J

[WhiteKiboko]

maybe its just me, but if youre taking a risk posting the photos, shouldnt you at least watermark them? or am i misunderstanding the gamble?

[Steve O'Shea]

maybe its just me, but if youre taking a risk posting the photos, shouldnt you at least watermark them? or am i misunderstanding the gamble?

WK, now you're frightening me!!! I've gone and textured them, bricks and canvass, reduced the quality and all that jazz. Please tell me that's what you see too? No, you didn't misunderstand what I meant; I'd imagine all and sundry would embark on a project of this nature; problem is I'm stretched too thin to embark on all of these things myself, but have to advertise them so that people see some of the things that could be done. It's a gamble - post too little and people are disinterested; post too much and give the game away.

There are many other ideas that I have also, but I'm not prepared to post them all at once. We'll trickle 'em out.
Cheers
O

[Infusoria]

maybe its just me, but if youre taking a risk posting the photos, shouldnt you at least watermark them? or am i misunderstanding the gamble?

WK, now you're frightening me!!! I've gone and textured them, bricks and canvass, reduced the quality and all that jazz. Please tell me that's what you see too? No, you didn't misunderstand what I meant; I'd imagine all and sundry would embark on a project of this nature; problem is I'm stretched too thin to embark on all of these things myself, but have to advertise them so that people see some of the things that could be done. It's a gamble - post too little and people are disinterested; post too much and give the game away.

There are many other ideas that I have also, but I'm not prepared to post them all at once. We'll trickle 'em out.
Cheers
O

You should be fine with the photos. The fact you've posted them here now on this date acts like a defacto watermark. Anyway I saw them a while back and can testify :yinyang:

In future however make prints or put them on a cd and mail them to yourself by registered mail. Put that mail unopened in a safety deposit box at a bank and you're sorted. The cd will also have the date you burnt it, on it as info.

I've seen this done before for intellectual property in the design world.

[Steve O'Shea]

... and here they are, the palatine teeth (reposted) in Vampyroteuthis. Sorry for the deliberate reduction in image quality - I can assure you the non-textured images are rather stunning.

[Jean]

SOOOOOOOOOOO jealous! Great image, if I squint I can imagine what the original looked like! :hmm:

J

[wildman]

Great stuff. I have been looking into various squid species and Vampyroteuthis is really a bizarre specimen. They are all strange in their own alien sort of way as they live in a world which is so different from ours. I don't think you have to worry too much about the images but care should always be taken. i wish I had your resources as the originals must be really stunning.

[Steve O'Shea]

i wish I had your resources as the originals must be really stunning.

I'm always begging and borrowing Wildman - the trick is to enthuse others, and give them feedback - that way you'd be surprised what doors open (and what different fields of science can off you/the study of cephalopods).

Glad you liked them; it's one of those papers that I've been meaning to finish .... as soon as I deal to all of this administration.

[chrono_war01]

Um...very interesting? I have no idea as I am very ignorant and its a bit werid. Don't really understand all this. As you see, my brain is a DOS and has a 5 byte memory.

[Barnstorm]

I wish I could help.

My Major was biology with a philosophy minor. I began work on a PhD. in the philosophy of science hoping to work tying disciplines together but I ran out of $ and did not finish more than a year of grad work.

Now I have a 15 year career in computer networking and security and I teach network engineering Biz 2 Biz.

I still try to keep up reading journals and books for the semi-layman. I keep marine aquaria, own a 32 foot boat and build, own and fly rotorcraft. However, every time I read about new discoveries and research (Mesonychoteuthis, End of the Permian, cephalopod intelligence tests, and our Dr. O'Shea's work) I wonder what would have happened if I had been able to finish my PhD or if any crossover work will ever be possible.

I suppose some day my skills might lead to me flying over the artic looking for mesony’s in a helicopter but for now the only body of water I can reach is the Ohio River and the only mollusks there are clams and zebra muscles!

Sigh…

[DHyslop]

Is there a fossil record of beaks/palatine teeth? I've never heard of anything way back, but I'm curious if there's anything in Holocene or Pleistocene sediments.

Dan

[Steve O'Shea]

Oh yeahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!! This was the reason for taking those pics!! Some structures reported in the literature are not true radular teeth.

[Squidman]

If the beak and beak musculature was removed, where were they in the first place?

(buccal mass pic)

Where exactly are the things you were talking about?


Clueless and loving it,
Squidman

[Squidman]

As to that hole-drilling octo, would that help with guiding or distributing chemicals?
Or maybe burrowing holes?

Clueless, ever so clueless,

Squidman

[DHyslop]

I'll be starting a paleontology masters next fall. There's about a 50/50 chance I'll get into one of the good vertebrate programs I'm applying to, otherwise I would probably stay here at the University of Wisconsin and do an invert project. The person I would be working with here has done considerable work on evolutionary rates in neogene gastropods. A project like this would be more suitable for me if it could focus more on the ~Quaternary evolutionary history, with conclusions more about evolutionary tempo and mode rather than just the systematics. I imagine such a project would require your proposed study to already be done, however.

Dan

[chrono_war01]

Wish I could help. Doesn't Messie live in the ANTarctic? Why does a post say artic? :confused:

[Steve O'Shea]

Not sure why a post says 'artic', but I guess that it is just one of those typos that creeps in (we're all guilty of it ... the mind plays games on us). Having said this, there is (I recall) at least one instance of a sperm whale that stranded in the northern Pacific containing Mesonychoteuthis beaks in its stomach. Someone, somewhere (details escape me) postulated that Mesonychoteuthis could also occur in Arctic waters.

It all depends on how long the beaks are retained in the stomachs of the whales, whether they are really (entirely) regurgitated every couple of days, or perhaps retained for longer periods. There's also the possibility that someone mistook beaks of Galiteuthis, another giant cranchiid squid, for Mesonychoteuthis. However, I'll not question the authority of anyone else (the person who identified the beaks), because I am in no position to challenge the identification (having not seen, and unlikely ever to see the beaks in question ... unless I go into super sleuth mode).

Hmmmmm. Been a while since I played squid detective; perhaps this would be an interesting challenge.

[chrono_war01]

Squid Detective hm....
And what's Sepiotenthis lessoniana? The poeple who work in the local theme park say that the squid they keep are Sepiotenthis lessoniana, any info on that?

[Steve O'Shea]

Ja, but check the spelling - tiz Sepioteuthis. There's quite a bit on info on S. lessoniana culture out there, but this puppy hatches at a mantle length nearly twice that of S. australis (the species we're currently keeping), and because of this they're easier to keep live (you don't have to procure as small a prey for the hatchlings/paralarvae). I'll track the reference down shortly (a book, either on S. lessoniana or S. sepiodea), although most of my literature on this genus has been pirated by one of either Felipe or Jason (both of whom will be back in force from Feb 14 onwards).

[chrono_war01]

Ever tried keeping them?

[Steve O'Shea]

Squid Detective hm....
....The poeple who work in the local theme park say that the squid they keep are Sepiotenthis lessoniana, any info on that?

Can you tell me more about this 'theme park' (as in its name, whether they have live squid on display right now, when they last had them on display ... any info would be appreciated). We had a post last year regarding locations where live squid were on public display (not in a research lab), and drew a complete blank (as in nobody knew anywhere where they could see them; you might have stumbled on something very important!!).

[chrono_war01]

Yes, it's in HK. It's called Ocean Park where it has a large atoll reef thingie aquarium, a display for sea turtles, rays, cuttles, squid, and octos. Also there's a whole building dedicated to sharks and rays, most impressive since they also mange bird zoos, pandas, goldfishes and rides. But I think it's going to get overrun soon because of the new DisneyLand :sad:

[chrono_war01]

Sorry, but I kinda wanted to keep things seperate

Q:I have heard that live squid is very hard to keep, but I see them on the Atoll Reef Aquarium display, would you be so kind to tell me do you change a new batch or you have a secret way of keeping them?

A:Dear Eric,

Thank you for your email and interest in our aquarium animals.

Our sources of the squid on display including :-
1) Captive breeding
2) Buying squid from local fisherman
3) Collecting from the field

The so-called secret is right food and suitable environment --- Live Mysis anddarkened environment of the holding tank in order to prevent the new born from colliding with the surrounding.

Q:I would also like to know how long the squid would survive in the water tank. Also, which species do you display, or do you display random species you could find? Do the squid feed on live Mysis all their lives or do they change their diet as they grow up?

A:Life span varies amongst different species. With Sepiotenthis lessoniana which we keep, breed and display in exhibit, life span is around a year or less in captivity. Apart from Mysis, we vary their diets and feed different kinds of shrimps and fishes according to their needs as they grow.
Hope the above information helps.

From Ocean Park.
Hope the above information helps.

[Steve O'Shea]

Magic stuff Eric; why don't you write back, thank them very much for their help, and then ask them what shape tank they have (for keeping the little fellas alive). You could also add, what sort of survisorship do they have when rearing these things. There is actually quite a bit of literature out there regarding S. lessoniana culture - many papers in the office.

[chrono_war01]

I'm just waiting for their poeple to cool down since they sometimes get hyped about reveling secrets :lol: . They opened my e-mail and replyed after 2 weeks. What's survisorship? Definition?

Hwere's the e-mail if someome wants to contact them personally:
animal@oceanpark.com.hk
just don't say who gave them this address.

[Barnstorm]

Wish I could help. Doesn't Messie live in the ANTarctic? Why does a post say artic? :confused:

Yes, ANTartic, bad habbit, I use artic to refer to either poll. Sort of like how people call gyroplanes 'gyrocopters' and so forth, annoying to people who know they are not the same.

Who knows, maybe they migrate :mrgreen:

Steve,

Where would I go to find info on who ID's the beaks (from the whale) and where he/she worked?

[Tintenfisch]

Hmmm... I did a quick search for this (online and in the literature here) because it rings a bell with me too, but couldn't find it yet. Will keep looking though. It wasn't Clarke, was it... ?

[chrono_war01]

I'll do a search and see if google finds anything.

[Squidman]

So... anybody taken up Steve's offer yet? Surely somebody out there is mildly interested in giving up his/her social life to compose a comparative morphology of palatine teeth in cephalopods?

[Squidman]

Question: What is a cranchiid squid, and what makes it different from other squid?

[Steve O'Shea]

Hmmmmmm. Nope, nobody has taken us up on the offer yet - shame really - would be truly sensational research. I have had one person inquire, saying could they do a similar project in the US using US collections. I said 'for sure', but can't remember if I've heard back.

What's a 'cranchiid squid'? That's actually a very good question, that might sound a little stupid (but isn't)! Generally they're rather transparent, large-eyed, thin-walled squid that can or might not have hooks on the arms or tentacle clubs. The mantle is actually fused to the head in 3 places - the two ventral mantle-and-funnel-locking cartilages are actually fused together, as is the dorsal surface of the 'neck', where the nuchal cartilage would be in other types of squid (in other squid the mantle and funnel-locking, and nuchal cartilages are not fused together - they take the form of a ridge that fits into and slides along an opposing groove). There'll be a more precise definition online (try TOL) - I've only given a generalisation here.
Me

[chrono_war01]

I would love to take the offer but I know nuthin about squid or some other ceph teeth or whatever....

[Tintenfisch]

You don't know anything about them YET. :wink:

[chrono_war01]

o....YET, does it mean I could join? Please.....I would really really love to see what you poeple do at NZ or whereever you work at....who knows, I might be the next apprentice.... :lol:

[Fujisawas Sake]

Steve,

PM me with some more details... I think I might know someone who may be interested. Mind you, you would be included in the credits! :wink:

John

[upasanap]

I'm taking a huge gamble in placing these images online. An ever-so-slighty exciting opportunity exists for someone to research comparative morphology of palatine teeth in cephalopods, both octopus and squid, linking this to diet, and describing ontogenetic shifts in their structure (in accordance with changes in diet throughout a species life cycle).

No project of this nature has ever been undertaken before; it is a world first.

I've attached a few 'modified' images here (some duplicated in Fossils & History, in a thread titled 'Challenge') to show you what you can expect to see with SEM microscopy (similar images, although not as detailed, can be obtained with light microscopy).

I am certain the shape and distribution of these radular-like structures is of both systematic and ecological significance. The project would involve describing these structures across all cephalopod taxa that we have here (very diverse collections), and examination of squid stomach contents, to ascertain any link between their density, form and distribution and the squid's diet.

Exciting stuff!! Suitable for Masters (if you have some experience) or PhD.

Just a selection of pics follow.

The first image is of the buccal mass, with beaks and beak musculature removed (of the arrow squid, Nototodarus). The radula is pretty obvious, below the salivary papilla. Running down, either side of the buccal mass are the palatine palps, upon the inner face of which you will see dagger-like projections (the palatine teeth). The other two images are close ups of these palatine and true radular teeth in two taxa (a rather large, unknown species of squid; and Nototodarus). They also occur in some species of 'octopus', Vampyroteuthis and most all other octopus and squid taxa (in fact their absence is extremely interesting, and must reflect some specialised diet).

An additional radular-like tooth is sometimes found in the salivary papilla of hole-drilling octopus species; there's so much that we haven't looked at in octopus and squid systematics; the world is your oyster!h
hi i am keenly interested to join it :smile:

[upasanap]

HI ,I am in australia keenly interested to join. i had my masters in zoology with my speciliazation in fish fisheries and fresh water ecology.plz contact me on my id. i am sending you my resume.plz have a look.

[Steve O'Shea]

Hi Upasana

Thanks for that; I'll contact you via pm shortly. I've edited your first post to remove your CV (a strange thing to post online).
Kindest
Steve

[Ceph fan]

I will be looking for a co-op placement come january, am studying biology at University of Waterloo (scince and business spec. biology), and have experience studying marine biology through Ocean Educations. Also very enthusiastic. please email me at pdalmazz@sciborg.uwaterloo.ca if you are still looking..... i saw a couple threads for this so i wil post this on all because i want this so badly :grin:

[TPOTH]

I will be looking for a co-op placement come january, am studying biology at University of Waterloo (scince and business spec. biology), and have experience studying marine biology through Ocean Educations. Also very enthusiastic. please email me at pdalmazz@sciborg.uwaterloo.ca if you are still looking..... i saw a couple threads for this so i wil post this on all because i want this so badly :grin:

If you don't get any reply from "The Man" then i can only advise to PM him directly. Good luck ;)

TPOTH

[Fujisawas Sake]

Like I've said before, Steve... This is a hell of an ambitious project. Let me see what I can do to help as well. I may need some info for a senior project, and this would be kickass for both a project and as a source for your overall research. That is, if you're interested in information on Northern Hemisphere (the SWINGINGEST hemisphere :razz:) cephs.

And no one will steal this idea. If they do, we can handle them *cracks knuckles*

John

[trelanea]

Your research sounds really interesting! It would be great to know what you've discovered so far. I'm a prospective cephalopod researcher waiting to hear if I've gotten into the doctoral programs to which I just applied.

Currently I've got a temp job as a chemist, and really miss zoology.

Certainly, I'll admit its a little preemptive of me but assuming that at least -one- of these programs accepts me, my intent is to research invertebrate physiology and behavior, specifically in cephalopods. Your topic sounds like a great project to get into that's right up my alley. Also, I could really use some hands on ceph experience. I've been around the block with higher phyla, but I'm really fascinated by invertebrates.

Please let me know if I could be useful in your research.
:tentacle: Paige
B.S. Zoology
B.S. Biology
Oregon State University 2003

[Steve O'Shea]

Hi Paige; do let us know how you went on your scholarship/postgraduate applications

[Steve O'Shea]

Just 'bumping' this thread, the last post being over 2 years ago. This will be an extremely interesting, rewarding research project, appropriate for someone wanting to do a Masters.

[Steve O'Shea]

Bumping again, because of something Kat and I am (or should this be 'are'?) doing .... watch closely this next week, for a treat; you'll not be disappointed. It has been nearly 1.5 years since a post on this thread, and the FIRST post was made in September 2004! Heavens, 5 years ago! I haven't changed a bit in that time :)

[DWhatley]

Heavens, 5 years ago! I haven't changed a bit in that time :)

Not true, we have seen at least two different hair styles (or lack of hair) and sets of glasses

[Jean]

still likes to tease tho'......did we ever find out what was in the mysterious freezer packages???

[Steve O'Shea]

Shivers! I forgot that freezer altogether! It's in another building (that we vacated years ago) in an annex. I'd best go rummage and see what I have in there! (And see if my freezer is still there!!!)

[tonmo]

Kat and I talked about that freezer at TONMOCON... I was supposed to send you a reminder Steve -- thanks Jean! Hopefully he can find that stuff and start the thaw process... different thread though, I'll bump it...

[Steve O'Shea]

Just a sneak preview of things to come ...... :sly:

[monty]

2mm! That's some mighty precise cutting you did there! That's the radula in situ, right?

[Steve O'Shea]

Yup, minus one palp; I'm afraid it looks like a brutal cut (perhaps I should have cropped the base somewhat :cry:)

[Steve O'Shea]

I have unstuck this thread because we've posted an update here (http://www.tonmo.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18237). There's more to come re palatine teeth, but the opportunity to do this at a doctoral level has probably passed (seeing that the guts of it has been presented already); that's not to say we are (or anyone else is) anywhere near finished our contribution on this matter!.