Hi everybody,

I'm into 3D computer modeling, and am trying to find some good clear reference images to use in modeling a variety of squids, particularly architeuthis. Good line drawings showing the essential details would probably be easier for me to work from than photographs. A set of images showing the top, side, and front view at the same scale would be excellent. Also, something showing the arrangement of arms and tentacles would help. I’ve searched the web and not spotted this, though I could easily have missed it.

Thanks in advance for your time and input, :)
--Carl
http://protask.nl.eu.org/~dennis/emoticons/div34.gif

Hi,

Very cool, Steve is your man. If he doesn'y see this (unlikely) I'll tell him.

Hi Carl,

I know this isn't exactly what you are looking for, but there are some excellent illustrations on the "Tree of Life" pages. For example:

http://tolweb.org/tree?group=Architeuthis&contgroup=Decapo diformes

It's a little awkward to navigate around that site, but once you get the hang of it the information contained there is excellent.

Phil

Hi Matt, hi Phil. :)
Thanks for the link, Tree of Life looks like a great resource for just about anything. 8)

--Carl
http://protask.nl.eu.org/~dennis/emoticons/div34.gif

Here’s a first cut at a front view of architeuthis showing the arrangement of the arms and tentacles.

http://www.jd-dch.com/carl1954/Miscellaneous/architeuthis/front_view_01.png

The image is probably way out of proportion, and I doubt the cross-section is circular as shown here. Any criticism, tips, comments, or pointers to help make this more accurate would be more than welcome.:)

--Carl – who just got some use out of PowerPoint
http://protask.nl.eu.org/~dennis/emoticons/div34.gif

Carl,

That's absolutely brilliant! That's exactly how I imagined the arrangement to be, though hopefully Steve and/or Kat should be able to verify it.

For your interest, here's a diagram that (hopefully) will be of interest that I adapted from a image on the TOL pages for an old post which compares the arm arrangement in the various groups of coleoid cephalopods. If interested the original discussion was here, buried deep in the archives: Why Eight Arms? (http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=389)

I'm looking forward to seeing your finished images!

Phil

Hi Phil, thanks very much for the comments, and thanks too for the link and image. :)
On the Decapodiformes, do you know if the angles between the arms are accurate?

It’ll be a while, but I’ll post some images if I can get anything decent built and rendered.

--Carl
:cuttle:

Hi Carl. Scale drawings .... hmmmm. Problem is that individuals between ~ 6cm mantle length and 90cm mantle length (male) are unknown.

Your image looks like it's based on the Monterey Bay Archi model, in which the tentacles come from within the arm crown, from separate pouches, between the 3rd and 4th arms on either side. They should be between the 3rd and 4th arms, but outside the arms. I probably do have some pics in the office that will help explain this, and will post them online when I'm back in.

There's also a very well-developed 'web-like' membrane that surrounds the beaks (buccal membrane) that everyone overlooks. Go get yourself a squid from the local 'squid shop'/supermarket and have a look at this structure; trying to explain it will only confuse you to bits. I also have pics of this, and will post them (as soon as I can find them).

Are you modelling a male or female .... or both?
Steve

Hi Steve, thanks for replying here :)


Problem is that individuals between ~ 6cm mantle length and 90cm mantle length (male) are unknown.

Life size is fine then, it’ll give me a chance to exercise the “fit to screen” option on my browser. :wink:

I’m looking forward to seeing any pictures you might have illustrating the tentacle placement and the buccal membrane. I’ll also rummage through some local bait shops and super markets and see if I can get a first hand look.

As far as the gender of the model is concerned, I really hadn’t thought it out that far yet, though at some point I’ll have to decide. If the main gender difference is size, then the same model with minor modifications will work for either gender.

Going by what you said about the tentacles being outside the arm crown, and trying to jibe with the image of the Atlantic architeuthis toward the bottom of the Tree of Life (http://tolweb.org/tree?group=Architeuthis&contgroup=Decapodiformes) page, I modified my front view layout as follows:

http://www.jd-dch.com/carl1954/Miscellaneous/architeuthis/front_view_02.png

This is probably closer to reality than the first image, but are the tentacle bases out far enough?

Once again, thanks for your input here, I really do appreciate it 8)
--Carl
http://protask.nl.eu.org/~dennis/emoticons/div34.gif

Carl,

Here's a great image I found on this site (sitehttp://leatherwoodonline.com/tassiestories/2004/squid/). I can't verify how accurate it is but (in my ignorance) it looks pretty good to me. For some reason it was posted upside down on the website so I've inverted it for you. Please click on the image below.

Ta, Phil

That's a great image Phil, thanks for posting it, and for taking the time to invert it. 8)
It's interesting that the fins are positioned above the body's centerline - I would have assumed they were centered if I hadn't seen that. There's a typo in the URL, but it's an easy fix and the website is worth visiting.
BTW, if, as you say, you're ignorant about this stuff, then I'm probably halfway between a dimwit and a dolt. Most of this is new to me, and I think it's great that people here are so helpful. :)

--Carl
http://protask.nl.eu.org/~dennis/emoticons/nasty61.gif

For anyone interested, here is a multi-view scaled image of architeuthis composited in Photoshop from the sources you folks mentioned in this thread. In the top, side, and underviews, I tried to match the mantle length. It’s impossible to get perfect matches due to variability between individual archi’s (and artists).

Two of the images were taken from the Tree of Life (http://tolweb.org/tree?group=Architeuthis&contgroup=Decapodiformes) page.

The frontal view showing the arm arrangement was taken from Phil’s adaptation of another TOL image. It was scaled to match the body width to that of the average top view body width.

The main top view I used for modeling was taken from Dr. O’Shea’s fact sheet (http://www.tonmo.com/science/public/giantsquidfacts.php).

The side view, which Phil inverted, came from this site (http://leatherwoodonline.com/tassiestories/2004/squid/).
Why the original was upside down, we’ll never know, but we do know that such foolish behavior often leads to ear infections in human swimmers. :wink:

Thanks again to Phil and to Dr. O’Shea for their help and advice on this. 8)
The model is progressing and I’ll have an image of the first version online fairly soon.

--Carl
:cuttle:

CarlS: Good stuff - it looks like your research is coming along nicely. Do you have Richard Ellis' excellent book? It is jam packed with information and pictures and might also prove useful (although as you are getting info direct from one of the best source in this thread it might not add too much detail ;) ).

What 3D modelling software are you using? Would you also be interested in making the model(s) available for other people to use? I could see people having a lot of fun fiddling with their texture maps and making nifty images of giant squid batlting whales, etc. ;)

Hi Emporer, thanks for your comments :)
Funny that you should mention Richard Ellis. I just bought a copy of "Sea Dragons", it’s excellent. Being new to this topic, I hadn’t heard of Ellis until I saw an ad for the book in Prehistoric Times magazine. I take it that the book you’re refering to "The Search for the Giant Squid"? I’ll check that out.

I’m doing the modeling in Amapi 7 Pro, though I’m just using the polyhedral modeler for this one. The first version of the model has been built, although a lot of detail work remains to be done. I need to get some info on the cross-sectional shapes of the arms and tentacles at various points along their length. Also, the beak, which I’m modeling after Dr. O’Shea’s photo of the beak of Mesonychoteuthis, still looks more like Jimmy Durante’s beak.

Once the modeling is done, it still needs to be UV mapped in UnWrap3D, then texture maps need to be created in Photoshop and Deep Paint 3D. Making it posable with the arms and tentacles independent will be a bear to do without distortion, and it will probably be done using Poser4 Pro Pack or the boning system in Carrara.

All in all, there are a lot of things to do on this, and with a day job and other ongoing projects, it’ll be a while before it’s finished. If I can get something that looks decent and is easy to use, I may check into making it available.

Thanks again for the comments :)

--Carl
http://protask.nl.eu.org/~dennis/emoticons/div34.gif

For any body interested, I uploaded an image of the model in the Gallery right here (http://www.tonmo.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=5&pos=21) :)
It's called The Gathering of the Elders.

To see a larger version of this image, click here (http://www.carls-corner.com/images/gallery/The_Gathering_03_1024_95.jpg).

The image was rendered in Carrara. As mentioned above, the model is still untextured and so the image relied on lighting effects.

--Carl
http://protask.nl.eu.org/~dennis/emoticons/div34.gif

Very nifty. How detailed is this model going to be? Which species is next?

Carl, your picture is lovely. I must show the squids to my sweetie, who uses some 3-d models for graphics. He'll be really impressed.

Melissa

Hi Um, Hi Melissa, thanks very much I appreciate it :)

As far as levels of detail are concerned, I’m planning on adding things as I learn about them. I need to get the cross-sectional shape of the arms and tentacles right. The suckers will be done as color and bump texture maps, which should be ok, unless I want to do some extreme closeup renders.

As far as models of real marine creatures, there’s an image of a sea scorpion I did a couple of years back in the Artwork section of my website. It was called The Crawdad of the Apocalypse. There’s a model of a praying mantis I was working on that still needs to be finished. I’ll probably try a detailed model of a trilobite sometime, as well as some of the nautiloids. Plus of course some of the old marine reptiles.

Thanks again,
--Carl
:trilobit:

Carl, if you're not in a terrible hurry (as in a 4-week-wait is ok), then I can take 'pics' to order (as in post all manner of Archi images online to help with this model).
O

Hi Steve, a 4-week wait is no problem at all. :) I have a mantis that needs completing and other projects with loose ends that need tying up. Any images you might have to offer would be a big help to me and I greatly appreciate you taking the time to make them available when it's convenient to you. 8)

--Carl - saying that would be great, thanks :D
http://protask.nl.eu.org/~dennis/emoticons/div34.gif

Brilliant work, Carl. And to think this isn't even finished! I'm using your image as wallpaper as we speak.

:notworth: :notworth: :notworth: :notworth: :notworth:

Hi Phil, thanks very much, I'm honored :)

--Carl
:nautilus:

Very, very nice... :notworth:

Hi Cthulu, thanks very much :)

--Carl
http://protask.nl.eu.org/~dennis/emoticons/div34.gif

really like the way you handled the dappled light...I tried to carry that off in a white shark painting, and failed miserably...ended up painting it in a storm...
There was a really great painter at a reptile show a few years ago that did a series of elasmosaurs, etc, with that same effect...very nice !
You should take a bow!
greg

Hey Greg, thanks, I’m honored. I checked out your website and liked your painting “Langaha”, and I’d like to see some more. The kraken on the Viking ship sail was a nice touch too 8)

The caustics light effect in the image was produced using a freebie program called the Caustics Generator (http://www.lysator.liu.se/~kand/caustics/) which produces an image file containing a random tileable caustic light pattern.
After I had the models, light, and haze set up in Carrara and the scene arranged the way I wanted it, I added an extra light overhead and applied the caustics image to the light as a gel. It took about 20 or 30 test renders to get things looking right before I could do the final image renders.

--Carl
http://protask.nl.eu.org/~dennis/emoticons/div34.gif

Carl, there's praise from my area too, along the lines of "he's much more skilled with Carrara than me." :notworth:

Melissa

Thanks Melissa, I just spend a lot of time with it. What version of Carrara do you use?

--Carl
:vampyro:

I don't do any of this, I just type. I'll ask sweetie what he uses. When he does something with the octopus model, I'll post it.

Melissa

Hi Carl; we'll be doing at least one squid (Architeuthis) examination on October 11 (we have 3 to look at, but will stagger these over a week). We can get pics online that (unlikely; will be fixing/'preserving' it), the next (very unlikely; filming), but definitely the following day (not a problem). Howz about a list of things you'd really like a look at.

It is quite likely that none of the specimens will be dissected, so any pics will be limited to external detail only.
O

Hi Steve,

That’s sounds fantastic, thanks! External views will be fine. :)

Here’s a wishlist, followed by some info on how I’ll be using the images, then some considerations on scaling and color balance. I’m providing that info since you may think of additional images that would be useful, but that I hadn’t thought to ask for. (basic translation: I’m a little out of my depth here)

I realize that there are a lot of images requested here, and I’ll be happy with whatever you’re able to provide. I appreciate your offer, know that you’re busy, and certainly don’t want to impose on you. I’m thinking that any images you provide will be of interest to most people here, aside from helping me with my own project.


Architeuthis Image Wishlist

The beak, from the front, side, top, and bottom view.

The front view showing the arrangement of tentacles and arms around the beak.

Images of the arms and tentacles illustrating their cross-sectional shapes and relative lengths. If a keel is evident on the 3rd arm, an image showing that would be great. Images showing the oral and aboral surfaces of an arm and a tentacle stretched out would also help. These can also be part of a composite panoramic image detailed below.

Dorsal and ventral views of the head, mantle, and tail fins. These can also be part of a composite panoramic image detailed below.

Panoramic shots:
(These may take the place of some of the mantle and arm/tentacle images listed above)
Keeping the camera at a constant distance above the specimen, take a series of overlapping pictures down the entire length of the specimen. These images can be stitched together in a program I have called Panorama Factory (http://www.panoramafactory.com/index.html) to make a single long scaled image of the architeuthis without parallax distortion. Overlapping the individual images by about 20 or 33% should be sufficient. If the arms and tentacles could be arranged so those on one side of the body had the oral surface facing the camera down their length, and those on the other side had the aboral surface facing the camera, that would really maximize the information in this long composite image. Aside from being of use as a modeling and texturing reference, I'm sure that a lot of people would be interested in this image in its own right, and I’d post the finished composite image here.

How the Images Will be Used

The pictures will be serving a twofold purpose – modeling and texturing.
For the modeling aspects, the pictures will serve as references to help me get the proportions correct and to see details that might not have been included in the images I’ve seen so far.

For the texturing aspects, at the very least, I’ll be using the images as a reference to paint the coloration onto images that will be mapped onto the model. If the specimen is in fairly good condition, I may be able to use the actual photos as the texture map for the model, although the color balance may need to be adjusted if the hue changes post mortem.

Parallax, Scale, and Color Balance Considerations

I’ve seen a lot of the photographs you’ve posted and they are excellent, so my apologies in advance if this part seems obvious. These are just things that will help maximize the usability of the images at my end.

If the images can be photographed with the camera perpendicular to the archi, that would help eliminate any parallex distortions.

The lighting I’ve seen in your images has been pretty even, without hard shadows, which is good.

If a ruler can be included in each shot to the side of animal, that will help me keep the images at the same exact scale.

Including a combination color bar with a grayscale on it next to the ruler would help me adjust the color balance to tune out any hot or cold spots in the room lighting spectrum. If you don’t have a color bar handy, I’d be more than happy to pick one up and mail it to you for this.



Well, that’s all I can think of for now. Once again, thanks very much in advance for whatever you are able to do. I’ll check the local photo shops for a color/grayscale bar and mail you one if you need it.

--Carl - hoping I'm not overstepping my bounds with all of this :oops:
http://protask.nl.eu.org/~dennis/emoticons/div34.gif

I've actually got a transverse section through the head, arms and tentacles in the garage .... (don't ask). Will take this into work tomorrow and get one of those wish-list series out of the way (it will detail the cross-sectional shape of each of the arms (at the base), tentacles and their origin, and the buccal membrane (unfortunately I have already extracted the beaks fom this specimen)).

It was from a terribly beat up specimen that wasn't (otherwise) worth saving intact (so I sectioned it). One of these days I'll get the piece on display. I have plenty of images of the beaks (extracted), but only a few of them in situ. Will also dig them out.

Wonderful, thank you very much :D

--Carl
:cuttle:

The first image of the attached series is of the arm crown viewed orally, with the buccal membrane most apparent (the beaks have been extracted). The numbers (e.g., 1L, 3R, are the arm numbers on the ANIMAL'S Right or Left side; the tentacles are marked T and originate between the bases of the 3rd and 4th right and left arms)

This next image looks from the dorsal surface of the head down, with the buccal membrane and connectives (+ lappet) visible; there's a fleshy lappet for every membrane. A connective attaches to either the dorso- or ventro-lateral face of an arm (relative to the sucker rows); this is extremely important in cephalopod systematics (the buccal formula of Architeuthis is DDVD, whereas that of the otherwise similar Moroteuthis is DDVV)

And this final image in this series, of the ventro-lateral connection of the buccal connectives to the third arms, and complete absence of buccal connectives to the tentacles.

This first image is a transverse section through arm pair 1, with associated keels apparent (but all suckers missing at the arm base).

The second image, a transverse section through arm pair 2 (with the dorso-lateral buccal connective obscured); 2 suckers are apparent on the oral face of the arm.

The final image of this series, a TS through arm 3 (again, with the buccal connective obscured); otherwise similar to arm 2, although no aboral keel is apparent (the arm could be slightly compressed/distorted or damaged).

This one of the tentacle (TS), and origination between the bases of the 3rd and 4th arms (no pouch, unlike Sepia [the tentacles are not fully retractile]). No, I am not unduly compressing the tentacle to give it that shape; that's pretty normal at their base.

This one of a similar shot, showing more buccal membrane and buccal connectives (just to put things in perspective).

And because these animals are so cool, here's another similar shot, showing even more buccal membrane and the full buccal connectives (to really put things in perspective). Amazing stuff!!

... and it's getting on, so images on arm 4 will have to follow another day .. (will edit this post and add)

Wonderful, thanks! :D
There’s a wealth of information right here, though the annotation will be a big help as well.
Good luck getting your software and hardware to work and play well together. Computers seem to be an area where Murphy’s Law reigns supreme.

Thanks again,
--Carl
http://protask.nl.eu.org/~dennis/emoticons/div34.gif

How's that looking Carl? If you want higher res pics, without the text, fire a pm through and I'll shoot 'em through.
O

That’s looking great Steve, thanks for the accompanying text you added to these. The finished images couldn’t be clearer, and would make good textbook illustrations. :)
I'm at work right now, but may have some questions on these after I'd have a chance to really look at them.

I’m on a cable modem at home, so I already saved all of the original hi-res images you posted into a folder for this project. The new versions with the text will be saved to another folder. I’ll also be interested in the high res versions of any more photos you take for this. They can always be dropped in resolution after processing. For instance, the full length composite panorama at hi res could easily be in excess of 10,000 pixels wide, so that will be dropped in size to something much more forum-friendly. I’ll mail off the full sized panorama to anyone that might want a copy of that.

Oh yeah, thanks also to Tpoth for lending a hand here.

--Carl
http://protask.nl.eu.org/~dennis/emoticons/div34.gif

Hi again Steve :)
Here are some questions pertaining to the images you posted in this thread.

I was expecting to see the arms more symmetrical about their radial axis.
In the book by Ellis, a roughly triangular arm cross section was mentioned, with some flatening on the oral face. Is this description consistant with what you have seen?

Related to the above question, is the cross-sectional shape of an arm roughly constant throughout the arm's length, or does it become more symmetrical with distance from the base?

Does the cross-sectional shape of the tentacles become more cylindrical a short distance from the arm crown?
Also, is there noticable flattening along the oral surface where the tentacle's "clip" together?

The buccal membrane appears to be very loose and almost baggy.
Has it just relaxed post-mortem, or did it have this looseness when the animal was alive?

How large is the beak with respect to the arm crown width?

Is the buccal lappet a thickening in the buccal connective where it merges with the membrane around the beak?

Is the buccal bulb visible behind the buccal membrane, or does it just provide underlying shape and support?

I'm under the impression that the buccal connectives and lappets in a ring around the beak, and originating from each arm, would have an appearance like a rather baggy eight armed starfish.
Is this correct, or am I off the mark here?

Thanks again for all your time and effort on this, 8)
--Carl
:sink:

Hi again Steve :)
I was expecting to see the arms more symmetrical about their radial axis.
In the book by Ellis, a roughly triangular arm cross section was mentioned, with some flatening on the oral face. Is this description consistant with what you have seen?

Definite flattening of the oral face, but the cosss-sectional shape of the arms is quite variable, depending on the arm; I'd be reluctant to say that they were triangular, or universally triangular. This is something we'll have to look at later on [next month].

When Richard wrote that book he had never seen the fresh animal; the jacket picture of him holding the Architeuthis tentacle club is ctually a photo taken after the book was completed, in New York, and is the specimen I took over for the AMNH. It is likely that reference to arm shape was taken from a NIWA memoir by Ellen Forch.

Does the cross-sectional shape of the tentacles become more cylindrical a short distance from the arm crown?
Also, is there noticable flattening along the oral surface where the tentacle's "clip" together?

The oral face of the tentacles actually flattens, and the surface is covered with tiny bumbs, giving it a rough texture [that assists in their clasping]; there are also the alternating series of knobs and suckers, that further locks the two tentacles together - these are distributed on the flattened oral face of the tentacles. I'll post a few more pics shortly (couple of weeks).


1) The buccal membrane appears to be very loose and almost baggy. Has it just relaxed post-mortem, or did it have this looseness when the animal was alive?

2) Is the buccal lappet a thickening in the buccal connective where it merges with the membrane around the beak?

3) Is the buccal bulb visible behind the buccal membrane, or does it just provide underlying shape and support?


Re 1), very loose and baggy is norm; I've pics of this structure live in Histioteuthis; will post these later today.

2) Yes

3) For the sake of this, I'd say that it provides underlying shape and support; it is visible orally but not laterally.

I'm under the impression that the buccal connectives and lappets in a ring around the beak, and originating from each arm, would have an appearance like a rather baggy eight armed starfish.
Is this correct, or am I off the mark here?

Picture an octopus mouth/oral region. There is no buccal membrane and no connectives top each of the arms. Picture the same for a squid, then shove an open umbrella inside the arm crown. The umbrella would flop about everywhere unless it had some lateral support - and that's what the connectives do (just cut a hole in the middle of the umbrella to accommodate the beaks).

The query re beak size, will address that one with fresh material; will augment this post with a few other images when at work later today.
Toodles
O

Thanks for the information here Steve, I'm looking forward to seeing the images you mentioned. :)

--Carl
http://protask.nl.eu.org/~dennis/emoticons/div34.gif

Here are a few of the beaks, extracted

.... and the upper beak

These are of juvenile Moroteuthis (ML ~ 15mm), taken beneath a microscope (very difficult to focus on a moving animal this small, beneath a scope).

It'll give you some indication what the buccal membrane/beaks are doing, and how far they protrude from the arms of the animal.

Moroteuthis and Architeuthis are VERY similar beasts (if you forget about the adult hooks on the tentacles, and warty skin of Moroteuthis).

Nice shots Steve, can I ask what scope you're using? Mag? Camera?

J

Here's a few of larval Nototodarus (the rhynchoteuthis stage ... a true larva, rather than paralarve for the majority of other squid and octopus); although you can't see the beaks/buccal membrane on tehse, they might be of greater interest to you Jean (am posting them here rather than starting a new thread).

I've long-since forgotten the camera specs, but there are so many systems on the market now that this sort of image could be obtained by the majority (you just want to limit the objective lens to 0.32-1x).

The entire larval Nototodarus (probably 5-6mm TL)


Close up of head of larval Nototodarus

Close up of fused tentacles (proboscis)

Terrific shots and very helpful, thanks Steve :)

The multiple views of the beak with the ruler are just what I needed. 8)

If I’m interpreting the images of Moroteuthis correctly, it looks like the lower beak is nearly transparent and the buccal membrane is extending beyond the beak tip on the ventral side?

--Carl
:ammonite:

FANTASTIC!!!! I'm soooooo jealous! I assume they're gouldi I WANT some!!!


J

If I’m interpreting the images of Moroteuthis correctly, it looks like the lower beak is nearly transparent and the buccal membrane is extending beyond the beak tip on the ventral side?


It's subject to some interpretation Carl; indeed the beaks of paralarval forms are nearly transparent (the hood darkens first), and on the earlier images are probably surrounded by the buccal lips rather than buccal membrane; without the exact specimen before me I couldn't say for sure.

This is an even closer image of the beak, lip etc. in paralarval Moroteuthis (I didn't know I had this shot myself ... been dredging through the old files ...); the view is from the lower (ventral) surface; that's the funnel to the left of the image; the ventral arms are quite poorly developed ona paralarva of this size.

This image is the lower beak of a comparably sized Moroteuthis specimen; you can see that the lateral walls are without pigment. This beak is way small .... 1-2 mm or so ... doesn't pay to drink too much coffee when extracting these things!

And this image is quite a neat one of the beaks and buccal membrane of Histioteuthis (violet squid). Unfortunately it is the best I have, and it isn't as good as I once thought it was ... At least the animal is live, so it'll give you an indication of what this structure might look like in Architeuthis.

... pre-empting a request for info on squid eyes, here are a few (they are tiny animals; forgive me for exposure and focus problems).

Of these, the Architeuthis eye is most similar to this one (an onychoteuthid, like Moroteuthis).

And quite different to this one (of Chiroteuthis), which has a large ventral photophore on the eyeball.

And different again to this one, an enoploteuthid eye, which has series of photophores around the eye.

I've posted them all so as you don't go giving the eye all sorts of human qualities; they're quite different from ours.

... and a couple more ...; one of Histioteuthis (upper), the other of a pelagic octopus, Ocythoe tuberculata (lower).

:shock:

Holy. Molly.

*preparing night raid on Master O's conputer to marvel at the amazing pictures*

TPOTH
--ninja skillz

.... :cyclops:

Preparing coprolite cannon!

I have eyes that see in the dark!

.... :cyclops:

Preparing coprolite cannon!

I have eyes that see in the dark! I am omnipresent!

...

Dang!

And yet another great idea down the drain... :cry:

TPOTH
--fears the barrage of coprolites

All I can say is great shots, thanks http://protask.nl.eu.org/~dennis/emoticons/div181.gifhttp://protask.nl.eu.org/~dennis/emoticons/div179.gifhttp://protask.nl.eu.org/~dennis/emoticons/div180.gif 8)

The extra Moroteuthis image and the Histioteuthis image clarifiy things a lot.

Question:
I imagine the image shows the buccal region of Histioteuthis in a relaxed state.
When feeding, does the beak ever extend beyond the buccal lips and membrane, or does it tend to remain in place within the lips and membrane?


... pre-empting a request for info on squid eyes, here are a few
I guess you saw that one coming :mrgreen:

Another question:
If you could apply lines of latitude to the eye globe, with the 90 degree polar latitude at the center of the pupil, at what latitude would the eye globe emerge from the head?
If I get this value too close to the pole, the eye will appear small and flat.
If it's too close to the equator, the poor guy will look like Marty Feldman. :shock:


--Carl - up for a minute at 2:30 AM and wasn't expecting anything like this 8) 8) 8)
:nautiloi:

Here is a very simplified mockup of the front view of the buccal region of Architeuthis based on the images posted by Dr. O’Shea on the second page of this thread. The arm/tentacle cross-sections are shown as rectangular just to make the placement of the keels and buccal connectives easier to see. The buccal membrane, bulb, and lips are not shown.

http://www.jd-dch.com/carl1954/Miscellaneous/architeuthis/front_view_03.png

The buccal connectives are shown in blue.
The keels are shown in red with the length of the line proportionate to how pronounced the keel appears.

The purpose of the mockup is to make sure I understand how the arrangement of these parts before I start modifying my model. Otherwise, I’m liable to paint myself into a corner on my hard drive.

Questions:
The fourth arm wasn’t shown in the photo set. Are there any pronounced keels on that arm and, if so, where are they located?

Are there any keels missing other than those on the fourth arm?

If anybody has any comments, additions to this, or see something that's just plain wrong, I'd love to hear from them. :)
Thanks in advance for the feedback,
--Carl
:sink:

Just a tad preoccupied right now Carl; could be a day or so before I get around to responding to your queries (and updating arm section 4).
Sorry, O

Matt Jones has been so kind as to take pics of the CT-scanned Architeuthis we did several years ago ... that I promised for an eternity that I'd get online.

Some of the pics are not that informative, like this one here, which is of the head region of the squid, but as we progress down the animal and look at everything in section you'll figure out a lot more.

This is just a taste of things to come (the yellow line points to the penis - this being a fully mature male).

The eye lenses are those white structures!!! Will post more on these another day. The dorsal surface of the head is to the right, the ventral to the left. The cavern-like process beneath the head (ventral surface) on these images is a depression into which the funnel sits; the lateral extensions probably envelop the funnel in life.

Now these pics are slightly out of sequence, in that the upper left image of this next block is actually the next image in the sequence from the earlier image upper right block (so you can just see the eye lens disappearing). The original scans are 3 images across, and we've gone for 2 only in the sequences here, to try and preserve as much detail as possible. Sorry for any confusion. We are heading down the head, towards the arms. Soon (next post) we'll get nice images of the arms in cross section (you can just see the two thick ventral arms in the lower left, with the two rather pathetic tentacles at their bases, between the 4th and 3rd ventral arm pairs).

Now, as for before, the upper left picture should be viewed alongside the upper right picture of the last image posted in the previous post. Now you can see the arms and tentacles quite clearly in cross section.

Now let the fun begin; it's like identifying individual noodles; pick an arm, any arm, and follow it to track changes in cross-sectional morphology. Good luck!

And here's a guide

All of this info makes me want to build an Archi soon!! :notworth: :notworth:

I have always wanted to do a cuttle, mostly because of the colors.

All of these pictures makes me miss workshop and my torch. :(

Carl, I am really exicted about the possibility of an animated or posable rendering. Being able to move it through the positions of of what I would like to build would be a huge time saver. I wish that I could have done that with Big Red. Instead Ijust had to imagine it all. :bonk: :goofysca:

Wow, these are perfect! :D :notworth: :D
Thanks Steve for the posting and the explanation, and thanks also to Matt. :)

For reference, I’m going to try putting the images into sequence in PhotoShop so I don’t have to keep doing the mental leap-frogging. If that works out, I’ll put the images up on my site and post a link to it here.

Hi there Pipsqueak. Posability and animation is in the future for this model, though that’s a good ways down the road. BTW, your Big Red is an incredible piece of work. 8)

--Carl – saying thanks again :D
http://protask.nl.eu.org/~dennis/emoticons/div34.gif

Here's a composite of the CT scan images :)

One set of images were omitted as duplicates (lower pair of file1 and upper pair of file3).
I adjusted the scaling using the ruler reference in the images, and put them into order from the back of the head to near the tentacle tips.

I'm just uploading the composite file and posting a link to it here, since a 4750 by 300 pixel image (233 KB) might be a bit unweildy on the forum page.

Clicking the link should open the file in a new window.
If your browser resizes it to a tiny size, just let your mouse hover over the image and click the mag button that appears on the lower right.

Then scroll, and scroll, and scroll some more. :shock:

--Carl - singing scroll, scroll, scroll your boat....
:archi:

:wink:

Thanks for that Carl; it does make viewing/interpretation a lot easier.

We have similar scans right throughout the squid, but because it is out of water, and collapsed under its own weight, they are far less informative (from a structural point of view). They're great for peeking inside the animal, and for looking at any additional calcareous structures within the animal (of which there prove to be none ... this was part of the exercise).

CU through the head quite clearly showed the two tiny statoliths in situ, which was rather informative for me, and the presence of a few other tiny calcareous structures in there, but you'll not see these unless you have the full-size images we have here (considerably larger than the images posted online).

Phil's sis, Moog, might be interested in these, but she's gone and done the vanishing act on us after her US OE. Where is she now Phil?

Ps, here's the 4th arm TS, though I've not labelled any parts (I'm sure that you're on top of this now, and this post in done ever-so-slightly in haste).

Hi Steve, thanks for the information, and for the fourth arm image which completes that set 8)

The two keels and the buccal connective show up very well there.

I've started updating the Architeuthis model with the new information. The model for the image in the gallery was version 30. Right now, it's up to version 33, with a lot more to go.

Thanks again, :)
--Carl - who tends to save the intermediate steps
:nautiloi:

Hi Steve, one question on this image (http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/download.php?id=3326) of Histioteuthis that you posted on page 3 of this thread.
In that image, I noticed that the shape of the “lips” around the beak looks roughly triangular instead of round. I can model that shape, but I need to know which way to orient it.

Thanks, :)
--Carl
:coffee:

Here are some screenshots of version 49 of the Architeuthis model.
The version used in The Gathering of the Elders (http://www.carls-corner.com/pages/gallery_pages/The_Gathering_of_the_Elders_640.htm) image was version 25.

There are a few more things I want to refine on the model
If I could get some feedback at this point, it would be great, because any structural changes would be relatively easy to implement. Once I finish with the modeling, and start in with the UV mapping for texturing, and making the model posable, it will be much harder to go back and change anything.

Things I ought to point out here are that the model is still untextured except for the eyes.
The arms and tentacles are still completely straight giving the model the appearance of a teuthid salad fork. This will be fixed once the model is made posable.

Here's a quad view of the model.
http://www.carls-corner.com/images/miscellaneous/architeuthis/ver49/Squid_49_QuadView_80.jpg


Here's a profile view.
http://www.carls-corner.com/images/miscellaneous/architeuthis/ver49/squid_49_profile_02_80.jpg


Here's are two oral views, with different types of lighting to make the keels visible. Note that this pair of shots used a telephoto lens, so the images are very foreshortened making the tentacle clubs look like squarish footballs.
http://www.carls-corner.com/images/miscellaneous/architeuthis/ver49/squid_49_oral_02a_80.jpg


Arm pair 1 has an oral ventro-lateral keel.
Arm pairs 2 and 3 have oral ventro-lateral and dorso-lateral keels.
Arm pair 4 has an aboral dorso-lateral keel.

The arrangement and relative sizes of the keels are based on the photographs and CAT scams posted here by Dr O'Shea.
I may have gotten them too long down the arm length.



The last two images are linked to due to their size, around 150 KB each. If these images don't open to full size, then let your mouse hover over the image and click on the magnification button that appears. Sorry about the JPEG artifacts here.
Here is a screenshot from inside the Amapi modeling program showing the beak and buccal region.
Click here (http://www.carls-corner.com/images/miscellaneous/architeuthis/ver49/squid_49_oral_amapi_02_70.jpg)

Here is the same area viewed from a slight angle. For this shot, I deleted the arms and tentacle on the right side to get a clear view.
Click here (http://www.carls-corner.com/images/miscellaneous/architeuthis/ver49/squid_49_oral_amapi_03_profile_70.jpg)


Anyway, that's what the model looks like now.
If anyone sees anything wrong, please give a holler because it's much easier to fix now than it will be later on.

Thanks for looking, and thanks for all your previous help to get me this far :)
--Carl
:squid:

Weally hoping that Master O is getting a copy of that model at some point.... so i can play with it :heee:
What? hey! i helped hold the stinkin' squid when he was taking pictures... 8)
i know, i know, i get roped in all kind of weird stuff... good ol' J-block... :lol:

TPOTH

Hi there Tpoth http://protask.nl.eu.org/~dennis/emoticons/div16.gif

Of course I'll be sending a copy of the finished model to Dr O and staff, together with my sincere thanks :)

You'll be free to do whatever you want with images made from the model, just mention me in the credits as the one that did the building and whatnot. Please don't distribute the actual model though. The main reason for that is that this is a long term project covering months of my "spare" time. Once something gets loose on the Internet, it's out of your control, and I'd hate to see my work turning up for sale by somebody else. On the same token, whenever I post an image of the model, I've always mentioned Dr O'Shea and the folks here at Tonmo with a couple of links. There are now a few more 3D artists out there interested in this neat place.

So Phase 1 of this project (the biggest part of it) is almost complete. Phase 2 will be UV mapping the model so that textures can be wrapped around it with minimum distortion. Phase 3 will be making it posable, first in Carrara, then possibly in Poser as well.

So, before I can wrap up the modeling portion of this project, any feedback on the model as it exists in those screenshots?

--Carl - saying hi to Tpoth and many thanks :notworth:
http://protask.nl.eu.org/~dennis/emoticons/per31.gifhttp://protask.nl.eu.org/~dennis/emoticons/per19.gifhttp://protask.nl.eu.org/~dennis/emoticons/per124.gif

Carl, it's marvelous. I showed it to my friend who uses Carrara and he's very impressed.

Melissa

Fantastic...absolutely fascinating. Congrats. :notworth:
greg

Thanks very much Greg, I appreciate it, and thanks to you Melissa, and to your friend as well. :D

--Carl
http://protask.nl.eu.org/~dennis/emoticons/div34.gif

Hi Carl; am kind-of at the end of my rope here .... just need a couple more days to get on top of things. For some reason (gut instinct) I would like to see the head more rectangular, with the eyes filling the lateral face (regardless of the dorsal curvature of the head on the CT scans), but pics and explanations are a couple of days away yet.

Please do hold off before locking the animatic; I'll explain later. Otherwise, looks 'expletive' good.
O

Thank you very much Dr O'Shea, for your comments and input, that's good to know. :)
I'll hold off on any more modifications to the model until I hear more from you.

--Carl - having breakfast http://protask.nl.eu.org/~dennis/emoticons/party68.gif before rolling off to work http://protask.nl.eu.org/~dennis/emoticons/cars33.gif
:squid:

I just noticed some excellent photos in this thread (http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=3339), particularly one by Felipe right here (http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/download.php?id=3658).
Is the cross-sectional head shape of architeuthis similar to the shape seen in that image?
If so, I could use that as a reference to adjust my model.

Thanks,
--Carl
http://protask.nl.eu.org/~dennis/emoticons/div34.gif

I'd meant to say something Carl - been an eternity since I've addressed any query online.

Ja, in the absence of other info I'd certainly prefer the head to be more box-like, the eyes very much on the lateral face of the box, and with both dorsal and ventral depressions on the head (dorsally a depression between the two tire-like lateral eyes; ventrally a depression to accommodate the funnel).

I don't believe the mantle will be as dorso-ventrally compressed as it is in the image of Sepioteuthis (in which the fins extend the length of the mantle, inserted laterally), but there would be a slight dorso-ventral compression, and quite possibly a slight, raised dorsal ridge (marking the gladius).

In the linked thread you will note the funnel oriented down, if not slightly deflected backwards (posteriorly). These images are of the squid swimming forwards. I'll post (on the other thread) images of the funnel oriented forwards, in which the squid is moving backwards.

Those are rather nice lateral keels on the arms of the Sepioteuthis; these assist it in forward navigation (it slices like a blade through the water); the arm crown also dorso-ventrally compressed (rather than cylindrical).
O

Hi Steve, and thanks for the feedback and the information. :)

If you had not mentioned the dorsal depression between the eyes, I would have included the raised center dorsal ridge that shows up on the head of Sepioteuthis in Felipe’s image.

Images of the next version to follow, though it may be a week or two before I have anything worth posting.

--Carl
:nautiloi:

All hail CarlS, for saving this old forum thread on his hard drive, such that I could go through and edit each of these posts and restore the original image attachments to each post.

Hail Carl!! :notworth: :notworth: :notworth:

Restoring the pics is pretty tedious, but it's worth it for a thread as valuable as this. If anyone else has copies of classic TONMO.com threads from the old board saved to your hard drive, let me know, perhaps I'd be able to restore old pics from the old board...

Yes, it's technically a TONMO.com copyright violation, but in this case there's a greater good to be gained. Thanks again Carl!

Wow, it looks excellent, Tony. :notworth: :thumbsup: :notworth:
It must have been a ton of work getting all those pics in place, thanks very much.
I had saved those pages onto my laptop for reference while modeling the architeuthis, since that machine is rarely online.

Speaking of the modeling, that work has recently resumed after the laptop underwent a hard drive replacement and a nuke and repave. I was able to save all of the data off the old drive (including archi), but the machine was still out of comission for over a month. Hopefully, I'll have some images of the new improved model to post here soon.

Thanks again, :smile:
--Carl

Looking forward to an update Carl. I must pull finger and attach images to other threads; it makes a huge difference to the viewer.

Looks like MonkeyWrench is doing something similar with an octopus. Cool!

Hi Steve and everybody else. :smile:

Here’s an image done with version 57 of the architeuthis model.
I started off trying to assemble something with multiple views of the model to show the updates made in the shape of the mantle and head. I liked the arrangement, so took it as-is and colored it in Photoshop.

http://www.tonmo.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=431&stc=1

A larger (1024 by 768 pixel), better quality version of this image has been uploaded to the gallery.
The arms and tentacles look a bit short because I faded out their ends to keep the picture from getting too cluttered. If anything stands out as being wrong, please let me know and I’ll get on it.

Currently, I’m working on version 59, getting the polygons more evenly distributed along the arms and tentacles, and planning on adding suckers along the arm’s oral faces. Once that's done, the UV mapping and texturing will begin, followed by making the model posable.

Thanks again,
--Carl
:squid:

...(speechless)

It is pretty cool!

CarlS,

Hey there; this'll be rather trivial after all the other posts, but being from TN, do you know the writer/artist Eric Powell? He's done some awesome ceph-work. Just wondering.

Erich :cthulhu:

Thanks very much Squidman, Steve, and Erich :smile:

I don't know Eric Powell, but I believe that this is his website:
http://www.thegoon.com/home.html
He does some excellent work, thanks for letting me know he's out there. 8-)

--Carl
http://protask.nl.eu.org/~dennis/emoticons/div34.gif

For anyone interested in the full size version of the pic, it's up in the gallery now right here (http://www.tonmo.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=5&pos=0) :smile:

--Carl
:squid:

!!!!!!!!!
Neato...

Looks great Carls :smile:

Do you have a pic with just a single squid in it? Maybe showing the full length of arms?

Thanks Chrono, thanks ArchyNorth :smile:

For some full length pics of the model, check the previous page in this thread.
Those images are of an earlier version of the model. The new image on this page started out as illustration of the things that had been changed since that earlier version.

Thanks again,
--Carl
:squid: