OK, guys, you asked for it. Here's pic #1 of the Amazing GS Discovery. We challenge you to figure out...

:arrow: What this is, and
:arrow: Why it's significant

Go for it!

Having absolutely NO experience in these things .....let me be the first to start the speculation! I think it's the stomach of a squid, with lots of contents. Can't go much further than that.

Nancy

.....I think it's an archaeological dig - a midden site - and you're looking at ~ 200 years of prehistoric mans littering/feeding. The arrows point to broken urns. Either that or it's a festering leg with tons of naggots :D

Hmmmm.... Interesting I shall think about the picture while I wait for squid to come into my light trap tonight

Short answer: I haven't a clue. :oops:

Long answer (my weak guesses :D ): Stomach contents...and it looks like there's a bunch of calcareous "stuff" in there (or at least it looks white and glisteny and jagged like calcareous fragments). I was under the (incorrect?) impression all ceph hard parts were chitinous except for cuttlebones and nautilus shells, so I'll say not ceph parts. But if it's not...then I'm not sure what it IS. I could swear that the items with the arrows look really familar, but...I just can't think what. And maybe these aren't actually hard parts at all. :?:

Can I actually see a third "thing" that's similar to the other "arrowed things," directly above the top "thing?" If it is, well, those remind me most of some squid suckers...I think I've seen some with somewhat serrated edges near the inner rims as seen here.

But...I sure wouldn't bet money on any of that...so, mainly, I just haven't a clue! :?

This is fun! :D

rusty

.....I think it's an archaeological dig

Not an Archiological dig? ;)

Indeed, Rusty, there is a third Thing of the same origin - well spotted - and probably more. As to the chitinous nature of squid parts... this is true of *most* squid (hint, hint) (also currently unpublished information).

Good guesses so far, on the right track except for one (ahem, STEVE). Any other takers?

:cthulhu:

Wait wait wait... hold the hectocotylus here...

If those ARE shell fragments... Some few months ago before I went on my posting hiatus, Steve told me that Archis spend their time as adults in the deep water column, feeding on fish. If those ARE shell fragments, then that means: (A) They cruise around the bottom of the sea looking for food AND/OR (B).... There's a shelled, free-swimming creature in the deep water column...

Sweet Giant Anteater of Santa Anita!!

Course, I could be wrong...

MORE... MORE... MUST... HAVE....MORE... PHOTOS.... :shock:

Sushi... and... Sake

John

.....ok, they're not shell fragments .... but I'll not be the one to give any more clues or secrets away.....

..... that image TTF put online is the first of its kind in the world - I can assure you that nothing like it has ever been seen before. In fact it is just so amazing that we even butted heads (as geeks do) when the first cut was made and unknown white objects (and additional scrambled mass) were revealed.

Need more clues? Looks pretty grotty doesn't it :D

A stab in the dark, maybe, but those things look like ....teeth. That round structure to the right of the picture looks like a vertebrae.

Has this squid eaten something it really shouldn't? However.......

I reckon you have found the crushed and broken up remains of a beak and associated buccal mass of another Architeuthis, evidence for cannibalism.

Oh My! I have noooo idea....New species???? Evidence of squid beaks within a squid??? Looks almost like suckers in areas. Thing is almost 2 feet long. Is this part of something or the whole thing???

My 5 yr. old daughtor quesses an octopus head, with squid beak parts inpaled on it???

Naggets came to mind!!!

:mrgreen:

Carol

Well...unless they're insanely pumped about all this, they should be snug in their warm little beds right now...so we'll have to wait a bit.

Meanwhile, with this info I guess I'll lean toward cannibalism as well...that we're looking at an Archi stomach with Archi flesh and suckers, and that the suckers are (newly discovered to be) calcareous. But you guys are so tricksy...wonder what else is up your sleeves (besides Archi slime! :D )

rusty

First guess

what is it: unlithified coprolite

significance: ????

Red arrows point to: Thing 1 and Thing 2.... The upper thing almost looks like part of a shark tooth, or a octopus sucker ring, and there is what appears to be a small centrum in the lower right corner of the mass.

conclusion: I don't know!!!
:nautilus:

In the words of the King, "A little less conversation - a little more action".

Okay... now this is supposed to be earth-shattering news right? Now, you said that it can't be BONE, since 'beak no break bone'... Cannibalism or even eating other cephs isn't that heavy, since its not that uncommon among the cephs. So... its something we haven't thought of... If that is a shark tooth, that wouldn't be too much of a surprise, UNLESS it was a new species...

Let's kick the tires and light the fires! Another photo! :lol:

Sushi and Sashimi (and no Parasitology lectures, please...) :lol:

John

What would it mean if you were to find a Roman coin inside an Archi stomach caecum? How many ways could something quite unexpected be ingested? We've got something rather interesting in that mass (which, by the way, is frozen/defrosting in the image).

I recall a dissection we did here several months ago where pieces of coiled plastic thread were found within the stomach caecum of a GS. That was quite unexpected .... in fact it was pretty exciting, but it is also pretty tragic!

Try and find information on what Architeuthis eats. I've dissected quite a few of these things, and to date stomach caecum contents have revealed 1 or 2 x fish scales, ~ 5 x small and fragmented fish bones (including 2 or 3 fused vertebrae), 1 x fragment of squid skin, a fish eye lens, and the occasional parasite - not really sufficient gut contents to excite me/make me want me to spend the rest of my life determining their species ......'fish and squid' was an adequate description. Tintenfisch has now dissected ~ 11 of these animals (not bad for a few months in NZ eh... and she wants to do more - not many people have seen so many specimens), and the stomach caecum in 10 of these animals was empty. There is very little information out there on the diet of Architeuthis.

....they're not shark teeth either; guess another pic will be posted soon.

Right-o, here's the next in the series.

http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/download.php?id=4103

Guess #2

Thing 1: Wrigleys

Thing 2: KB or Fosters

:?: :?: :?:

:nautilus:

Boy that new post just threw a wrench into the gears of guess 2

LOL... Thing 1 and Thing 2, this sounds like a Dr. Seuss book...

I think this is what Archi ate
I think these things were on his plate
But I do not know what they were...
Bone, scales, chitin, feather... fur???

;)

it looks to me like corned beef hash sprinkled with sucker discs. what is that above the 14 inch mark? hmm... TTF, are you implying with the fur comment that it may have been eating marine mammals??

....just to clarify one thing, here in NZ we're metric, and the tape is in cm.

ack! see what living in america too long does to you? can't wait for the next picture

Aaaaaah... So we're looking at some HUMAN artifact? That's kinda cool, but sad. I mean, our trash is usually anything but healthy for wildlife... Hmm...

Oh, and Steve? As far as a Roman coin is concerned, that would be nothing short of amazing... But I thought you said that Archis don't live very long? So it would have to have eaten something that ate a Roman coin, or have found an old shipwreck, or something... You have found something that means anomalous behavior, haven't you? WOW....

Thanks to you and Tintenfisch for the photos... I'll d/l this one right now...

Have a wonderful day!

John

Wow...

You're right... This is something odd... I have a feeling, but I'm going to look at it a bit more closely. If my hunch is right, it seems to be uncharacteristic of the Archi's feeding habits of which I've been told...

Thanks again...

John

up above 25.5cm is a thing 3
looks like it needs wingers sauce to me

I can see so many "things" consistently...it's like looking at pieces of a jigsaw puzzle...they all tickle something in my brain but I can't tease it out...I keep wanting to reach into the photo and play with/feel them! :D There's this consistent theme of "looks like a broken fragment of a round ringlike structure with jagged toothlike edges along one rim and a channel or groove of some sort along the side." I can't think of anything that has a round mouth with teeth except something like a lamprey, and some urchins.

This is like a Rorschach inkblot test. The "thing" that spans cm ticks 28 and 29 in photo 2...about 2 cm above the measuring tape...that almost looks fetal to me, and yet toothy at the same time. And that blob above 25.5cm (mostly fat?) does look kinda articulated and posed like a wing. Or a crab's claw. Or a mantis claw...or...or...Gah! I dunno!! :P :D

rusty

Its like dissecting owl pellets... but these sure as heck aren't voles....

Gasp! Yes they are! This isn't Archi at all, it's the Squibbon! :lol:

rusty

Oh, and Steve, I know how you feel about the plastic... I've worked with sea turtles before, and plastics look a lot like cnidarians under water and... *sigh* I can't imagine dying from intestinal blockage, and there's NO REASON a turtle should have to die like that. Please don't tell me that we're killing off Architeuthis like that... are we?

Did this giant eat a shark????? Could we be looking at some teeth????? Not shark teeth ya said....................Dolphin????? Polar bear?????

Hmmmmmm.......

Carol

My file attachment contains some guesses for pic 2:

Red: octopus tongue

Blue: octopus tentacle

Yellow: crab leg (not a big deal, but is this correct?)

Green: octopus sucker

Why remarkable? Because it was not known that giant squid feed on octopus.

If I'm going down, at least it'll be swinging! :D

http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/download.php?id=4104

...I was just zooming in on the image... and is this (the thing circled in purple) an eye?

I thought I read that giant squid pulvarize their food before it gets digested... is that true?

http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/download.php?id=4105

What would it mean if you were to find a Roman coin inside an Archi stomach caecum

OK this may be slightly off topic, but one of my archaeological aquaintances once found a Roman brooch at the site of a Roman villa at Folkestone in Kent in the UK. It apparantly had a stylised octopus holding a dolphin in its arms and was absolutely exquisite. I just wish I had a photo of it to show you all. (By a strange coincidence the site overlooks my ammonite quarry)

Tony, your idea of a crab leg is interesting. Is there any previous evidence of Architeuthis ingesting bottom feeding creatures? As previously pointed out this would imply a hitherto unsuspected lifestyle.........

Is there any previous evidence of Architeuthis ingesting bottom feeding creatures?
I don't know (wish I thought of that when I suggested there was a crab in there! And some octopuses for that matter...) -- but this would fit in with the image of a sperm whale swooping down to the bottom of the sea to munch on a mass of giant squid. How else would the sperm whale get so many beaks in its stomach? Imagine thousands of giant squid writhing on the sea floor, feeding on bottom dwellers, and migrating to a new spot to feed anew.
:squid:

...I was just zooming in on the image... and is this (the thing circled in purple) an eye?

I thought I read that giant squid pulvarize their food before it gets digested... is that true?

They sure look similar to eyelenses I've found in the guts of smaller squid, they seem to be fairly resistant to digestion.

The limb does look crustacean. Even if the GS isn't a bottom feeder something it ate might be and what we're seing are the results of secondary ingestion. When I was going through the guts of the southern arrow squid I came across heaps of bivalve pediveligers (mobile shelled larvae) not normal prey. These little bivalves were less than 1mm long and the squid typically had mantle lengths longer than 200mm. then I noticed that the bivalves were always associated with an unidentified fish, probably a pipefish (definitely a snyngnathid anyway!!) Now these guys would eat bivalve pediveligers , so I deduced that they were secondary ingestion!!!

The crustacean would fit in with the GS eating an octi.

Thing 2 looks to me like a fish lower jaw but I could be way off base, some even look like hagfish teeth..................awwwww now my brain's turning to mush!

J

secondary ingestion
Uh oh... I wonder if the doctor and his apprentice have considered this?

the doctor and his apprentice

Oi! That's 'the doctor and doctor-to-be,' thanks! :wink:

Soooo, OK, here's a clue. Check out Steve's guide to characters, Fig 6.3 - and bear in mind that the features on that particular structure are diagnostic, e.g., number occurring, shape, size, etc. :idea:

And I will say, there's nothing mammalian or avian in there, no crusties, and nothing secondarily ingested.

As soon as we can sort out the best bits, take some more mysterious (but enlightening) photos, and get them developed, things will become clearer. Hopefully this will be within a couple days, although we're moving... but I'm pushing to start sorting tonight. :)

OK, I will go out on a tentacle -- uh, limb -- here. Is it possible that some of those unidentifiable things are Architeuthis larvae or paralarvae, thus indicating that Archis, like guppies, cannibalize their own young? (Or if they are indeed terminal breeders, the young of other Archis?)

Either that, or it's an elaborate hoax concocted by Colin, and the photo depicts the actual contents of a traditional homemade haggis.

Yum, yum! :yuck:

That's 'the doctor and doctor-to-be,' thanks!
er, yeah, that's what I meant! Really, after dissecting 11 giant squid, I should be calling you The Exalted Grand Poohbah of All Cephy Things.

...all, here's the link to the article referenced by The Exalted Grand Poohbah of All Cephy Things:

A Guide to Frequently Used Characters, Character States and Measures (http://www.tonmo.com/science/public/measurements.php)

Okay...well, I'm actually willing to now "bet" on something. I bet these are specifically sucker rings, probably from an Archi. They don't resemble the ones in Steve's characters article (but shouldn't, since that's a different species.) But they DO look pretty much identical to these (old!) drawings...I'm not sure how to attach an image here, so I'll tell you how I got there. Follow this link:

http://tolweb.org/tree?group=Architeuthidae&contgroup=Deca podiformes

Then scroll down a bit and find the "Characteristics" section. In that section, under "Tentacles," you can find a link to "tentacular clubs." That's got the drawings.

Clumsy, I know...sorry, I'm not sure how to make it cleaner than that.

It seems to be implying that these only occur on the tentacular club, which would mean this guy ate at least that part of another Archi...or if not, at least the arms in general. So...it ate another Archi, or parts of one? Or even ate its OWN? Somebody's mentioned here before that senescent octos sometimes eat their own arms...

rusty

Very good! I think you just earned the title Archisleuthis...
So how'd they get there?

:squid:

YO Steve???? I s this a joke about the Sperm whales stomaches you promised us????????????????? lol??? HELP??

Okay folks,
Here's my presumption about this consumption of what is most likely a tentacle from an architeuthis. It could be possible i suppose that the male secrets his sperm in the end of a specially formed tentacle and deposits it within the females mantle. When the female uses the sperm (possibly thru her own "manual insemination") she may be like many other male mate eating creatures and ate the sperm carrying tentacle, or she may have taken the tentacles from her mate during the mating.
The sperm holding tentacle may indeed have slightly different characteristics to thier other tentacles which may explain why the parts visible in the clue photographs might not resemble known anatomy structures.
Was this a female archi?? and if so was she recently fertilized?

In the second clue picture could the worm looking item actually be the sperm sac??

Are there traces of sperm within the contents?

My original thoughts were however that this may have been a coelacanth (sp??) meal as I have seen serrated edges to these scales in pictures before.

Tony.

That thing on top isn't a feather, is it?

Guess I'm coming in late...heh...yeah...how DID it get there?!

Warning: :grad:

Although the males of many species of squid do have a hectocotylus and reproduce that way, Archi definitely has a completely separate and unmistakable 'male bit' (as Steve likes to call it tactfully), which, in mature males, can reach up to a metre or more. The males actually stab the females (and often other males) in the arms, mantle, under the eyes, whatever they can reach, and forcibly inject spermatophores into the skin, where (our best guess goes), they remain until the female is ready to produce her eggs. When she does, the eggs are sealed into a large gelatinous sphere (up to 2m in diameter), which she then cradles in her arms for a bit before allowing it to drift free in the water column. We think the spermatophores would be chemically triggered somehow by the presence of the egg mass, break open, release the sperm inside, and thus fertilise the eggs within the mass.
Sounds wild, but the egg masses have been documented (there may even be pictures of them somewhere on TONMO? There used to be... )
Anyway, the short answer is (too late), while the males' tentacle clubs aren't used as sperm conductors, they might well suffer casualties during the violent mating process.

YO Steve???? I s this a joke about the Sperm whales stomach you promised us????????????????? lol??? HELP??

Tiz no joke sharpcuda. We'll pick up on the sperm whale stomach contents thread soon, when we've had an opportunity to catch our breath; we've not even begun to tell that story yet!

TTF has been immersed in GS stomach contents all eve, sorting through the mass of amorphous bits and pieces contained in those pics; the story will just get better, but it will take time to compose it also.

Rusty, you've done good :wink:
Cheers
O

DEFINITELY a run out of the bathtub yelling "EUREKA!" event....!! :lol:

WOW... You were right... this is pretty big! :shock:

Well, that makes sense... *kicks himself for missing it* But is the male killed or simply ... er... castrated? And I guess it serves two purposes here, sperm packet delivery and some extra energy for the female.

*study, study study*

*yawn*

Sushi and ... zzzzzz....

John

Ah-haaa....seems the Good Doctor is congratulating Rusty, and as I recall it was Rusty who came up with the autophagy idea.

So I think what we're seeing here is part of the Archi's own feeding tentacle, which I assume eventually regenerated. This was one stressed-out squid! Of course, there may also be spermatophores on it due to either a thwarted attempt at mating, or (if it's a male) one of those embarrassing "shooting yourself in the foot" incidents.

Are we getting warmer here? And while we're at it, do you suppose the locking mechanism on the Archi's tentacle club was the original inspiration for Velcro? Inquiring minds want to know!

Tani

Fascinating stuff!!! Soooo, seems like it ate it's own arm????

Or one of it's own kind???

Interesting!!!!

Carol

So, she eats part of the male (who is going to die soon after mating) and she gets the benefit of the meal (probably her last) and the benefit gets passed onto the babies? A bit like arachnids???

So, the sperm in her arms are bitten out by herself and she removes the sperm that way?

So, when she is ready to lay eggs she eats her own 'sperm-ified' arms and the sperm makes its way out of the stomach into an ovary area?

em, more to follow maybe......

C

Hehe...just got back here, my internet's been all wonky...

Colin...what a fascinating idea! Could it be that they actually have to manually bring back out their deposited spermatophores? Although...Tintenfisch did mention they pretty much stab wherever they can, so maybe some spots would be too hard to get to?

As for my guesses... :oops: ...well, they're still just technically GUESSES! That was just a really good clue from Tintenfisch and I found a helpful drawing. :D

Still, I think the crossroads we stand at now is whether this is the Archi's own tentacles or another individual's. If they're it's own, we'd prolly know because it would be missing them? Which then further leads us to why? Senesence? Starvation? Colin's really wild and cool fertilization idea? If it's another's, the questions would become did it just eat the tentacles or the whole squid, and under what circumstances--was it a hostile territorial encounter, was it the popular "suicidal sex" theory, or was it naked predation? I'm really not sure WHICH of these I like best! Suicidal sex does have a certain allure, though...wasn't it mentioned somewhere here that specimens of adult male Archis are really scarce? If most washed-up or caught specimens are adults at or post reproduction, then I guess they would be scarce if they're being eaten! :shock:

And, finally, one last idea comes to mind. Since no one's ever SEEN an Archi eat, just how might that work? Could it be that it's kind of like trying to eat a sandwich with heavy velcro mittens on? That it's unable to eat it's prey without accidentally munching a decent bit on it's own tentacles, and that they just regenerate really fast? Or that perhaps the occasional sucker or sucker ring gets popped out of the club by struggling prey, and thus ingested? Given that the Kiwi contingent assures us these are pretty sensational finds, this idea sounds a bit less sensational and so maybe isn't it. Just thought I'd throw it out there...

rusty

good call rusty!

That would explain the lack of males....

if it ate the whole squid then beaks would prolly be in the crap too.. if they can withstand some whale's stomach acids for a while i think they would survive in a squids???

I think her pulling off her own suckers to release sperm is my best guess..... Otherwise Im about to get really silly and go over board with daft suggestions!

C

Please, go overboard! I think part of the coolness of this thread is we're getting some amazingly neat ideas, which maybe don't apply here but maybe are useful for someone to remember for some other purpose, someday in the future. Sometimes. :P

rusty

OK we know what they are.:) :)

How big are the big suckers on a big Archi and how big are the biggest suckers in the contents of the caecum?

And is that a crab leg or archi parts???

:nautilus:

Hehe...just got back here, my internet's been all wonky...

Colin...what a fascinating idea! Could it be that they actually have to manually bring back out their deposited spermatophores?

And, finally, one last idea comes to mind. Since no one's ever SEEN an Archi eat, just how might that work? Could it be that it's kind of like trying to eat a sandwich with heavy velcro mittens on? That it's unable to eat it's prey without accidentally munching a decent bit on its own tentacles, and that they just regenerate really fast? Or that perhaps the occasional sucker or sucker ring gets popped out of the club by struggling prey, and thus ingested

Interesting, interesting, interesting! Our net's been playing up too - we keep getting booted offsite every ~ 3 mins. Very frustrating.

Col, Rusty, interesting suggestions/developments on the manual liberation of spermatophores from the arms; I don't believe we had considered this - but one of the challenges put to everyone was to explain how the structures could have been ingested (many heads are better than 2). It is worth further consideration. Unfortunately we didn't have the head and arms for this particular specimen, so do not know whether it had/had not mated, or had ingested its own arms/tentacle clubs. Such is life (maybe it ate its entire head :D ; you see, these things are damaged in the trawls, and more often than not incomplete).

Rusty, your final suggestion is what's been going through my mind now for the past few nights (as these things do). However, if they were such 'messy eaters' then we would expect to regularly encounter their sucker rings (and suckers ... as is the case here) in GS gut contents .... and this is not the case. There is much work to do be done yet to identify these gut contents (we need to spend a considerable amount of time looking beneath microscopes, comparing our considerably masticated bits and pieces with other intact museum voucher squid, and by a process of elimination identify the species that have been eaten; there are remains therein of another thing that could be Architeuthis, but could be something else [the structures are similar in two kinds of squid]; if they prove to be Architeuthis remains, then their high numbers within the gut contents probably couldn't be attributed to messy eating.).

Thanks all, Us

That would explain the lack of males....

(Oooops, this is Tintenfisch accidentally posting as Steve... )
(Maybe I should take advantage of this :twisted: )

Actually male Archis aren't that rare... they occur about 50/50 (despite that Spanish claim to have found the first specimen ever... :? ) though they do seem to come in patches, e.g., the first three I dissected were all male, and the ones we did last week all female. Also, fishermen (those who save squid for us) often get several in one trip, and save only the biggest - and since mature females can be about a third larger than mature males, you can guess who we're seeing more frequently. :)

As far as crusties go... egg on face for my previous brash all-inclusive 'no crusties or secondary ingestion.' :roll: Although mostly in tiny pieces, there are a few bits of crusty in there (like a mangled euphausiid), probably from one of the smaller squid Archi ate. But all the squid pieces there are definitely primary ingestion, and there are no bits indicating that Archi eats crusties itself - no crab legs, etc.

euphausiid

Was ist das??

:? Me

It'z one of deez (a shrimp)

http://elib.cs.berkeley.edu/cgi/img_query?special=browse&where-lifeform=Invertebrate&rel-namesoup=like&where-namesoup=Euphasiid+Shrimp

...but can ya spot which one :roflmao:

... Or try this one for a better look... :)

Euphausiid (Krill) (http://www.bbsr.edu/Marine_Biodiversity/Creature_Feature/CF_Euphausiid/cf_euphausiid.html)

Hi Folks,

I'm just wondering if there are funds enuff for dna testing to see if these ingested parts are from the same animal??

Is dna testing a normal procedure with these examinations?

Tony.

Now that's a really good idea!! Wish we'd thought of it before we placed the stomach contents into a formalin solution to fix them (we've basically destroyed our chances of a good DNA sample now :x ).

If ever there's a next time we'll be thinking more clearly (I'm not so sure whether we can handle the same numbers of deep-sea giants like Architeuthis at the new institute; time will tell). In the meantime we'll console ourselves with the belief that the samples, having been exposed to digestive juices and souped up with all manner of other tissues from other squid species, would have been so contaminated that a clean DNA sample would have been unlikely; tissue sample/DNA contamination happens so often that I've had adult Architeuthis DNA-sequenced as both human and salmon before ..... :roll: ........ just some of those problems that occur in labs - but we'll not go there).
O

Hello everyone!

Well, once again congratulations, and I can sympathize about the DNA testing... I probably would have forgotten about it as well, what with the excitement and all.

I'll may be away for awhile... Something terrible happened here in the states. One of our space shuttles, the Columbia, was lost in re-entry will seven astronauts on board.

In the summer of 1996 I was fortunate to work as an intern for our nation's space program at Kennedy Space Center. I worked for the biological sciences division, ecological monitoring. It was the proudest moment of my life, since space was my first love, long before biology. I met a lot of astronauts, and had more fun than any scientist or scientist in training should have... The Cape was home. My home.

I only ask that you keep these people, these brave souls and their familes in your prayers. Like all those who have endeavor to study the sciences and make the ultimate sacrifice for their work, they died that we may learn.

Good luck and may the Squid be with you,

John

Well said John.

Our thoughts are with the families of the astronauts. Terribly sad.

Phil

PS Would DNA testing really been able to differentiate individuals?

Sure...distinguishing between separate individuals of any species is easy to do (technically...time and money are obviously factors!) But it's very important, as Steve says, to prevent contamination. I figured Steve didn't even mention it primarily because of the garbage-disposal nature of the stomach...DNA from who knows how many animals in there. But human, Steve? :shock: Maybe Archi has a bit more varied diet than we thought!! :P

(yes, yes, I know...experimenter error...but I can just see the press frenzy if you just announced "I've found human DNA in an Archi's stomach!")

rusty

It'z one of deez (a shrimp)

http://elib.cs.berkeley.edu/cgi/img_query?special=browse&where-lifeform=Invertebrate&rel-namesoup=like&where-namesoup=Euphasiid+Shrimp

...but can ya spot which one :roflmao:

Lessee, now -- is it that cute, yellow, porous li'l dude about five shrimps in from the upper right, wearing a brown suit and tie and carrying a spatula? (Oops, sorry, I think he's just collecting the krill for this week's batch of Krabby Patties....)

But seriously, folks, is it possible that one of those UFOs (Unidentified Food Objects) is actually a large parasite hitherto not known to afflict Archis, such as a tapeworm? I've heard that some great whales can carry tapeworms 100 ft. in length, and that tapeworms can live in non-mammalian hosts such as fish, so perhaps this is a similar parasite in a size commensurate with that of its host.

Yes? No? Maybe? Dumbest thing you ever heard? RSVP!

(Oops, sorry, I think he's just collecting the krill for this week's batch of Krabby Patties....)

Actually Tani we had a student here once who was studying krill and he made krill patties for morning tea once!!!!!! They were well ..............bad! very strong fishy flavour and crunchy!!!! the things we do in the name of science!

J

Actually Tani we had a student here once who was studying krill and he made krill patties for morning tea once!!!!!! They were well ..............bad! very strong fishy flavour and crunchy!!!! the things we do in the name of science!

J

Hi Jean --

Hey, ya never know.... check out my "Octopus (Pro) Wrestling" thread on the POP CULTURE forum. (But whatever you do, don't tell Steve-O'!)

:wink:
Tani

Whatever it is - its disgusting!

It looks look poop!
I know - its baby giant octopus poop :shock:
Babies eat all sorts of strange things...

I'm a librarian - I've no idea what it is, so do I win the dummies prize?

KRin

I'm with Krin -- what's the summary here? I got lost somewhere between the tentacles containing sperm and the krill. What's in these pictures? I gather they are "toothed" suckers, based on fig 6-3 from the States and Measures (http://www.tonmo.com/science/public/measurements.php) document. What's the significance? Was the specimen male for female -- do we know? :?: Inquiring minds and all that! :?

Whatever it is - its disgusting!

It looks look poop!
I know - its baby giant octopus poop :shock:
Babies eat all sorts of strange things...

I'm a librarian - I've no idea what it is, so do I win the dummies prize?

KRin

"Librarian," my tail flukes! You can't fool us with that screen name, Krin -- you are really Steve "Croc Hunter" Irwin! Who else gets all enthusiastic and hyper about animal poo? Now be a good Aussie, put the doo-doo down, and go back to smooching with Terri and tying up crocodiles (or vice versa), Crikey, mate, you are fair dinkum bonzer an' all that, eh wot?

:wink: (Just funnin' wit' ya....)
Tani Terrific

Yeah...where are we anyway? I think we left off at "We're looking at an Archi's stomach and the sucker rings of another Archi or very similar species, so it ate at least those parts of it...but why?" There was an earlier statement that I thought implied there was more to tell but that they had some work to do before they could tell us... :?:

rusty

Yeah...where are we anyway? I think we left off at "We're looking at an Archi's stomach and the sucker rings of another Archi or very similar species, so it ate at least those parts of it...but why?" There was an earlier statement that I thought implied there was more to tell but that they had some work to do before they could tell us... :?:

rusty

Well said, Rusty, and I apologize for getting off-track. All right, then, I will essay yet another guess:

Is it possible that Archi's last meal was a ceph (or other invertebrate) native to "black smoker" or thermal vent environs? This would mean that Archis, as another member proposed, are actually bottom-feeders and that is why we only see the moribund ones.

Of course, that would pre-suppose that Archis can tolerate the heat and high sulfur content around "black smokers". But considering their unique ammonia-based physiology, and the fact that -- according to Ellis' book -- they appear to be immune to poison gases such as Sarin, it could happen. Or could it?

What say ye? (Remember, Yours Truly never got beyond Chemistry 101, so please be gentle!)

Tani

Whatever it is - its disgusting!

It looks look poop!
I know - its baby giant octopus poop :shock:
Babies eat all sorts of strange things...

I'm a librarian - I've no idea what it is, so do I win the dummies prize?

KRin

"Librarian," my tail flukes! You can't fool us with that screen name, Krin -- you are really Steve "Croc Hunter" Irwin! Who else gets all enthusiastic and hyper about animal poo? Now be a good Aussie, put the doo-doo down, and go back to smooching with Terri and tying up crocodiles (or vice versa), Crikey, mate, you are fair dinkum bonzer an' all that, eh wot?

:wink: (Just funnin' wit' ya....)
Tani Terrific

NO, NO, a million times NO! :evil:
That man is a complete nutter and I claim no repsonsibility for him.
It was just an accident of birth to be born in the same country as him.
I've never even seen a crocodile let alone poked one with a stick. I'm not that crazy.

I actually really am a librarian, honest. I work at the Cancer Council in Melbourne, Victoria.

KRin

Hi all; sorry for the long absence - the transition hasn't gone as smoothly as we would have liked/as it could have, and we've found ourselves temporarily computerless.

More will follow soon - our intention is to present something more comprehensive within a couple of weeks - though we may be doing it from cyber cafes.

Cheers
Us

A couple of weeks?????? Oh my!!! I had wondered what had happened to our clues!!

Hope everything straightens out with your move!!!!

Carol

NO, NO, a million times NO! :evil:
That man is a complete nutter and I claim no repsonsibility for him.
It was just an accident of birth to be born in the same country as him.
I've never even seen a crocodile let alone poked one with a stick. I'm not that crazy.

I actually really am a librarian, honest. I work at the Cancer Council in Melbourne, Victoria.

KRin

Hiya krin -- please don't take my silliness to heart! I am one of the incorrigible class clowns of this community, and sometimes I forget that not everyone here is familiar with my twisted but well-meaning sense of humor.

In fact, as far as I'm concerned, you are working on the side of the angels. My Dad and some of my other relatives unfortunately lost their lives to cancer, and anyone who does his or her part to help research and/or care in that field is a hero to me.

As for the Croc Hunter, he's actually my second-favorite Crazy Antipodean Nature Guy Named Steve -- my favorite being our own Doc O'Shea! We recently upgraded our cable system and can now watch the Animal Planet channel, so I get at least two healthy doses of the Irwins per week, as well as other cool naturalists such as Jeff Corwin and Mark O'Shea (no relation, I assume).

I'm still waiting for Steve and Kat's big revelation.... just hope, after all that, that it doesn't turn out to be something he left in the refrigerator last year and is now starting to grow antennae and green fuzz!

Squidly salutations,
Tani

just hope, after all that, that it doesn't turn out to be something he left in the refrigerator last year and is now starting to grow antennae and green fuzz!

Reminds me of the classic Monty Python's Flying Circus episode where Graham Chapman, as police officer, turns to the camera holding a bag with an egg salad sandwich inside (which he originally thought was a bag of drugs which he tried to plant on Eric Idle), and says, "Blimey! What ever did I leave the wife?"

....as other cool naturalists such as Jeff Corwin and Mark O'Shea (no relation, I assume).

I'm still waiting for Steve and Kat's big revelation.... just hope, after all that, that it doesn't turn out to be something he left in the refrigerator last year and is now starting to grow antennae and green fuzz!

Tani

No relation there Tani (though I've received some entertaining mail over the years where I've been mistaken for Mark). Hey, I did some work (behind the scenes, late last year) for a new Jeff Corwin doco; I believe he was looking for the giant squid (in a light-hearted sort of way). Has this aired in the US yet? I believe it is was to air just after christmas ... but I could be wrong (I'd be interested to hear what people thought of it, should it have aired already); a copy should be en route to me.

We can assure you that the greeblies Kat presently is illustrating are more interesting than the contents of my fridge/freezer. A more detailed story isn't too far away now; we're back online and have microscopes and facilities lined up.
Cheers
Me

Tani,
did you just put 'cool naturalist' and 'Mark O'Shea' in the same sentence? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: etc

Hello everyone!

Back from my self-imposed exile due to computer death (and with a new hard drive thanks to Western Digital's warranty program).

Thanks for keeping posted on the big news... I look forward to new revelations.

On a sad note, I assisted in the autopsy of a dead baby whale two days ago. Yeah, yeah, I know that biologists refer to a post-mortem of anything non-human as a "necropsy", but I don't care. It was a stillborn Eschrictius (Gray Whale) calf... It was interesting, gave my wife some mammalogy class credit, and was worth the drive to the south jetty. But I was saddened... Its just a hell of a way to die after such a long pregnancy and such. Well, no squid here, but does anyone besides me ever get kinda choked up about these things? I'd make a terrible researcher... I get attached.

*sigh* Well, keep posting! And the Croc Hunter rules! I would give my left hectocotyl to a Dasyurid for a mammalogical tour of New Zealand and Australia! Oh, and if anyone sees a Thylacine, catch one for me, okay?

Sushi, Sake, and Donburi

John

No relation there Tani (though I've received some entertaining mail over the years where I've been mistaken for Mark). Hey, I did some work (behind the scenes, late last year) for a new Jeff Corwin doco; I believe he was looking for the giant squid (in a light-hearted sort of way). Has this aired in the US yet? I believe it is was to air just after christmas ... but I could be wrong (I'd be interested to hear what people thought of it, should it have aired already); a copy should be en route to me.

We can assure you that the greeblies Kat presently is illustrating are more interesting than the contents of my fridge/freezer. A more detailed story isn't too far away now; we're back online and have microscopes and facilities lined up.
Cheers
Me

LOL -- I'd love to see some of that misdelivered mail! I've just had an individual message exchange with Colin where we both agreed how "vanilla" Mark-O' is compared to you, Corwin, and the Irwins.

We just started getting Animal Planet here in mid-January, so unfortunately we missed a lot of the new 2003 specials (including THE FUTURE IS WILD, which I am praying they will air again soon). I saw a few JEFF CORWIN EXPERIENCE episodes, including one in the Amazon rain forest, one in Tasmania, and one on the Oz mainland. I don't recall any mention of Archis in the latter two, so I assume -- or hope -- the one in which you participated will be shown again. What was its title and/or theme?

If you check the threads on the PHYSIOLOGY AND BIOLOGY forum here, you'll see a topic entitled Humboldt "vocalizations"? This was my query re an ULTIMATE ANIMALS episode I saw (starring yet another naturalist name Steve, whose surname I don't recall). Last time I checked nobody replied to it, so if you get a chance, I'd like to hear your take on the subject (it was pretty weird).

What are "greeblies" anyway? Sounds like something my Grandma would've put in her homemade giblet gravy, except she would've used Chicken Greeblies 'cause I don't think Archis are kosher.... :D

BTW, best of luck in your new venue! With what organization are you and Kat doing your research now?

G'day to you, Shoba, TTF and the Duxies,
Tani

On a sad note, I assisted in the autopsy of a dead baby whale two days ago. Yeah, yeah, I know that biologists refer to a post-mortem of anything non-human as a "necropsy", but I don't care. It was a stillborn Eschrictius (Gray Whale) calf... It was interesting, gave my wife some mammalogy class credit, and was worth the drive to the south jetty. But I was saddened... Its just a hell of a way to die after such a long pregnancy and such. Well, no squid here, but does anyone besides me ever get kinda choked up about these things? I'd make a terrible researcher... I get attached.

*sigh* Well, keep posting! And the Croc Hunter rules! I would give my left hectocotyl to a Dasyurid for a mammalogical tour of New Zealand and Australia! Oh, and if anyone sees a Thylacine, catch one for me, okay?

Sushi, Sake, and Donburi

John

Konichiwa John,

The rest of the community will probably pillory me for this, but yes, I love cetaceans too. In the books I recently read by Eugene Linden (one of which I will soon be reviewing for TONMO), there is a moving account of a mated pair of captive orcas, who were profoundly attached to each other. Eventually the female became pregnant and they both appeared to be very happy (as were the zookeepers). In the manner of many cetaceans, the male would routinely "sonograph" his mate's belly with his natural sonar to determine the condition of the fetus. (There is anecdotal evidence that dolphins and orcas often "sonograph" pregnant female trainers in the water too, showing intense interest in them, occasionally before the women are aware of their own pregnancies!)

One day, after the male orca performed his regular sonar check of his mate, he became severely agitated and started banging his head against the side of the tank, in a display that could only be interpreted as frustration and despair. Shortly thereafter, the female orca gave birth to a stillborn calf. There is no question in my mind that the male orca knew that his mate was carrying a baby, knew that the baby was his, and knew that it was no longer alive. I would challenge anyone in the scientific field to disprove that these beautiful mammals are just as capable of grieving as ourselves.

On a happier note: Steve Irwin is a major cutie -- in fact, I am just a tad bit jealous of Terri! :oops: His combination of archetypal Aussie charm, maniacal devotion to his career, and contagious enthusiasm about everything, makes his show a definite "upper". And you get the feeling that he's equally enthusiastic about the people in his life -- though it was a little disconcerting when he was showing off his newborn daughter Bindi to the zoo staff and said, "Isn't she a little beauty?" and you realize he's used the exact same phrase to describe snakes, scorpions, crocodiles, and goannas....!

In a similar manner, you can see that S.I. is genuinely upset when he sees wildlife injured by human destruction of the environment -- as when he was almost reduced to tears by the sight of burned and dying small animals due to a deliberately-set bush fire. His compassion extends to humans too -- on his expedition to a war-torn Indonesian island, he presented a local priest with a substantial donation from Australia Zoo, to aid the families displaced by the destruction of their homes and crops.

So yeah, I am definitely a Croc Hunter fan too! (BTW, what as Dasyurids and Thylacines?)

Plum wine, shrimp tempura, and green tea ice cream,
Tani-san

Tani-San,

Dasyuridae is the family of Marsupial "Cats", or carnivorous Maruspials that include the Tasmanian Devil. The Thylacine was one known as the Tasmanian Wolf or Tiger, and was a beautiful marsupial carnivore. It was also considered a pest by ranchers and met its end in 1913. But the rumors... ah, the rumors... The rumors are that they may still live deep in the forests of Australia and New Zealand. Might be codswallop, but I like to dream...

As far has Humboldt "vocalizations", I have my issues with that... I've had a crack at a dead Dosidicus (Humboldt Squid) here at Humboldt State University... Just how do they figure that these things vocalize? I'm confused.

The Future is Wild is interesting, but the book is better... I have a bit of a thread going on the site "Malacology: H.G. Wells Style".... Drop by and see it if you like.

Sushi and Pocky

John

Hiya John; the old Tasmanian Devil isn't found down here in NZ I'm afraid - just in Aus (Tasmania).

Vanilla O :wink:

Crickey! I write miserably after a large meal and some mead...

Sorry, I meant that the the Tasmanian Tiger was brought to New Zealand as part of a conservation program. Too little, too late, I'm afraid. As far as the Tas. Devil. yeah, its strictly Aussie.

Amazing stuff you found in the Archis... Have they all been dissected?

Sushi, Sake, and some Valentine's Day Lasagna (?)

John

With what organization are you and Kat doing your research now?

We're now with Auckland University of Technology (AUT) in - you guessed it - Orkland, New Zealand. And we might even have our own office by next week... :shock: we've been trying to make our temporary spaces as fragrant as possible (not hard with preserved squid and dead whale stomachs) to give the admin a little incentive ;) to give us some space quick.

Never before have I heard such deliciously evil and appropriate extortion! :twisted: Way to go Tani!

rusty

'Me thinks' this thread once had something to do with Architeuthis stomach contents! Guess you all got bored with the waiting eh :roll:

By process of elimination we are confirming the identifications of prey items; we've found a few errors in the existing literature that had we uncritically accepted it (the literature) we'd have done little more than perpetuated them (the errors), got our species identifications wrong, and lead you wrong too.....and we don't want this :grad: . Moreover, a few of the bits and pieces contained within the stomach caecum, usually fragmentary, are not well reported in standard descriptions of cephalopods, so we've had to procure and examine appropriate reference specimens for comparison (the bulk of my collection remains where I used to work :( ).

More soon, promise
Us

Never before have I heard such deliciously evil and appropriate extortion! :twisted: Way to go Tani!

rusty

:lol: As twisted and evil as I am, I would like to take credit for that olfactory extortion, but in fact it was Steve-O' and Tintenfisch (Kat) who concocted the scheme. Alas, I am not a Kiwi teuthologist, just a Brooklynese were-squid.

:squid:
GO BROOKLYN! YAAAAY!

Oh, right...oops! :oops: For some reason I keep blending the names Tani and Tintenfisch.

Were-squid, eh? hmmmmmm. Is that catching? 'cause if it is, you might have a few dozen Tonmoers knocking on your door tomorrow looking to borrow some germs... :P

Of course...given Steve-O's discoveries...maybe that's not such a good idea... :shock:

rusty

Just seen a photo of our favourite kiwi cephers fondling GS tentacles in a Mag here (Called North and South). Some quite entertaining quotes from Steve O on inflicting squid glop and stench on fellow NIWA bods. For that I might even forgive them for not moving to the mainland so's their lab would be within my reach!!!!! (I'm a little allergic to Orkland!!) :lol:

Jean

Were-squid, eh? hmmmmmm. Is that catching? 'cause if it is, you might have a few dozen Tonmoers knocking on your door tomorrow looking to borrow some germs... :P


First ya gotta let me bite you:

http://seawifs.gsfc.nasa.gov/OCEAN_PLANET/HTML/squid_taningia_surprise.html

Now, take two anglerfish and call me in the morning....

"Be careful what you wish for" -- MWAHAHAHAHAHAAAAA!

:twisted:
Tani, Fearsome Flasher of the Dreaded Depths

Oh, the biting's no problem...I think it's the "suddenly on the Giant Squid Menu" thing that I think some of us would be a tad squeamish about. Or do were-squids have supersquid strength to fight off would-be predators? 8)

I suppose you might need some extra deodorant, too...

rusty

I suppose you might need some extra deodorant, too...

Only about four times as much ;)

Do they make an undertentacle deo?

Kat: They do indeed make undertentacle deodorant -- that's how Archis mask that telltale ammonia aroma to avoid scientists. Of course, the roll-on device is about the size of a soccer ball.

Rusty: The giant photophores frighten away the Archis, who as Steve-O' can tell you are really big ol' scaredy-squids at heart(s). And if that doesn't work, I morph back into my human form as it looks first thing in the morning, which my husband will confirm is kinda like looking at a Medusa (and I don't mean the jellyfish!).

Jean: Can you upload that magazine photo to the site? Sounds like fun!

Uh, now what was this thread about.... :?:

i believe once upon a time it had to do with those pictures that looked like my liver on a sunday morning

Yes, and we are still working on identifying everything - the MS is in progress, and we may have some illustrations to post here soon as well. Incidentally - did I mention that when I picked up the film, the developer asked me what they were? Her best guess was a rotting finger. :yuck:

..... and that manuscript will be in draft form in a couple of days, and we'll be posting away to our hearts content. It turns out that there are quite a number of references to cite (more than we had imagined) that deal with diet in Architeuthis. What is most surprising is that the beast has 'eaten' many strange things (the likes of plastic, algae, copepods, stones/pebbles, bottom-dwelling crayfish, prawns, sea squirts, mussels .... it goes on). However, despite these unusual items, there is some continuity in gut content composition; common to many records is the presence (prevalence) of squid and fish in the gut.

..... and when we have this out of the way, and the squid beaks from whale stomachs, we'll share with you something even more sensational! Ja, some wicked things have been found down this neck of the woods lately.
Cheers
O

Just a wee note; we'll post more soon (but we cannot post the article online, not yet anyway, sorry). It's ~ 10 pages long and ready for submission now. Just thought you might find part of the conclusion interesting.

Accidental self-ingestion, autophagy or cannibalism
We believe it extremely unlikely that Architeuthis would accidentally bite off and eat its entire tentacle club while feeding. No tentacle or tentacle club retained with any of more than 100 carcasses examined by the authors has manifested any sign of self-inflicted damage. Moreover, this report is the first confirmed incidence of Architeuthis remains within the digestive tract of the species, and if either accidental self ingestion or autophagy occurred, even rarely, then we believe that we would have observed remains more frequently in gut contents, or, alternatively, earlier authors would have identified them and accordingly remarked on their occurrence (although it is quite possible that the large unidentified suckers reported by Zeidler & Gowlett-Holmes (1996) are referable to Architeuthis). Therefore, although we cannot entirely discount either accidental self-ingestion or autophagy, we lean toward the possibility of ingestion in the aftermath of inter-architeuthid aggression or mating.

Aldrich (1991: 474) describes a beached Architeuthis (specimen # 15) as unique amongst those encountered by him in that it clearly showed evidence of having been engaged in battle with what apparently was another cephalopod. This he based on evidence of sucker scars ranging from 2.7 to 4 mm in diameter on some arms, in addition to the ends of incomplete arms being serrated in a manner inconsistent with that associated with beaching. Aldrich (ibid: 475) attributes this damage to combat with another architeuthid. We believe that our present contribution, wherein the large tentacular sucker rings of Architeuthis are reported from the stomach caecal contents, and that of Zeidler & Gowlett-Holmes, wherein large unidentifiable suckers were recovered from the stomach caecum, equally support Aldrich’s contention that damage through combat with other architeuthids does occur.

References
Aldrich, F.A. 1991. Some aspects of the systematics and biology of squid of the genus Architeuthis based on a study of specimens from Newfoundland waters. Bulletin of Marine Science, 49(1–2): 457–481.

Zeidler, W., & Gowlett-Holmes, K.L. 1996. A specimen of giant squid, Architeuthis sp., from south Australian waters. Records of the South Australian Museum, 29(1): 85–91.

........
Cheers
Us

Fascinating stuff, thanks for posting this.

Would the damage inflicted on the other (Aldrich's) Architeuthis necessarily have to be through combat, though? Could the damage have been caused through a particularly vigorous mating ritual perhaps, do you think?

Just a thought.