Can anyone help ot with identification of the following; the images were sent to me by a reporter for Science & Vie Magazine, Paris, with the questionable identification of 'mystery squid beaks'. They're certainly not from any cephalopod with which I'm familiar, and look more like toenails of some large animal, or perhaps something from a weird fish.

Suggestions welcomed!

http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/download.php?id=1968

http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/download.php?id=1967

http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/download.php?id=1966

part 2

... the structure was found by a reader of the magazine, on the shore near the mouth of the Tech river, in french Catalunya (Pyrénées Atlantique), on the Mediterranean coast. It was first brought to my attention in December of last year, but these pics have just been sent through. I'm not too sure when 'the structure' was found (if some zoo lost something bizarre around that time [press reports] it might help track the thing down).

http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/download.php?id=1970

http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/download.php?id=1969

The thing 5 image seems to be sporting a hook of sorts, no?

It does, kind-of like a claw. I've drawn a complete blank. I know we've got a few online who like playing with reptiles that might have a better idea .... it really has stumped me.

sfter the first three id say it looked like a shark tooth, but i cant help you after looking at 4-5...

Carol

I'd consider looking at parrot fish (Scarus) dentition or pufferfish (
Sphaeroides)

vertebrates rule! :cyclops:

i thought puffers teeth were more flattened.... i can remember my dad just telling me to watch the mouth when we were fishing for spot....

of course that was a long time ago...

Steve,

It looks keratinous, almost like... Well, like the tomium (beak) of a turtle. Noting the size, it would have to be a sea turtle. It also looks somewhat vascularized. Without actually getting my hands on it, I would have to say a sea turtle.

You say the Mediterranean? Hmm... Green turtles Chelonia mydas nest in the Azores, and make their way into the Mediterranean a lot. The Kemp's and Olive Ridleys, Lepidochelys kempii and L. oliveacea, could also be the culprit but I doubt it. It could also be a Loggerhead, Caretta caretta. Its just that this beak-thing looks too much like a turtle tomium to me.

Any other news on it that may be of interest?

John

I am really sure we should be looking at parrakeets, lorikeets or conures the shape and size looks perfect for it... nothing as big as a macaw but a sort of mid sized parrot.. any vets near you that can treat parrots? They would yay or nay it almost instantly

:bonk:

Well, we've got Pisces, Aves and ?Turtese .....

Quite bizarre; I don't feel so bad about drawing a complete blank now.


Anyone have pics of turtles bitsywits, puffer fishes whosywotsits and parrots bitsyfizzbits to compare with this?

Well, we've got Pisces, Aves and ?Turtese .....


Turtese? Testudo maybe?

from the porus structure it leads me to believe it is a baleen tooth but the shapes wrong new animal ? maybe

It looks keratinous, almost like... Well, like the tomium (beak) of a turtle. Noting the size, it would have to be a sea turtle. It also looks somewhat vascularized. Without actually getting my hands on it, I would have to say a sea turtle.

You say the Mediterranean? Hmm... Green turtles Chelonia mydas nest in the Azores, and make their way into the Mediterranean a lot.
Hello All,

The link below has a photo of a Green turtle skull (a replica) with its beak attached. The mystery thingy looks a bit more narrow and pointed...do young Green turkles have more aggressive beak profiles than mature tutles?

http://www.azdrybones.com/testudines.htm

Clem

The mystery thingy looks a bit more narrow and pointed...do young Green turkles have more aggressive beak profiles than mature tutles?

Clem,

Yes they do. Along with some other features that are designed to make them less palatable to larger animals. As far as the bird theory goes, my wife took a look at the beak thing and said that she didn't think it was a beak due to the fact that bird beaks are the result of a fusion of three bones, and this thing doesn't show signs of that process.

Could also be a tortoise as well, but just looks a bit big.

John

Well, we've got Pisces, Aves and ?Turtese .....


Turtese? Testudo maybe?

Are you talking about the Linnaen system?
Turtles count as Class Reptilia, Order Chelonia.

Oh, and I think that its not puffer fish due to the size and general shape of puffer jaws.

Oh, wait... hello.... What about the Hawksbill Eretomchelys imbricata? The beak fits the profile, though I'm not sure if you find them in that region....

Any news Steve? I would check with a local herp expert if I were you.

John

Are we sure they're aquatic or marine in origin? Lots of weird stuff washes down rivers, especially if they run through farmland.
My first thought on this is that it looks very hooflike; I did some checking around and the vascularization seen distally in many hooves (like the second one on this page (http://www.horseshoes.com/advice/anatomyandfunction/anatomyofinnerhoofwall/anatomyofinnerhoofwall.htm) at horseshoes.com) does look similar.
See attached (also courtesy of horseshoes.com); the 'toe' of the hoof (which may often become overgrown and clawlike if not trimmed or worn away through regular activity) has the right cavity shape when you remove the coffin bone / distal phalanx.

:read:

http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/download.php?id=1974

A mystery solved is a mystery lost.
Sad

http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/download.php?id=1976

.... this is getting mighty confusing; some rather good cases have been made for turtles, fish and horses ... can we possibly get a few more pics onlihne to sorth this out?
Ta
O

Kat,

The hoof idea is good, but the curvature and apparent "sharpness" of the "beak" don't seem to match any hoofed mammal with which I am aware. Is the beak sharp, or worn down?

I'm still going to say turtle unless I get my hands on a similar specimen. Maybe I can sweet-talk a hepetologist at school to give me more info.

Sushi and Sake,

John

It looks like the beak of one of these

beak (http://www.nhm.org/journey/prehist/ornitho/triceratops.html)

:shock:

:shock:

Now that would be cool.

I'm more used to vertebrate bone and teeth but my initial thoughts were along the sam lines as Tintenfisch's.

I know that area of france really well and there are a lot of goats and such like and I might have been tempted to suggest that some kind of broken and abraded horn might look similar.

The mountains there rise up rapidly from the sea and an awful lot of water can empty out of them which could lead to some things being smashed and worn down.

Actually I have a few bits and pieces lying aorund I'll have a look and see if I can't spot anything.

[edit: Nope no luck there - they are all too complete]

Emps

I am a meat broker, and although that amounts to a hill of beans here. I would have to say, I have no clue. I am not convinced on anything, but idea of a hoof is more aceptable from what I have seen through animal slaughters and "breaking"! Are there any reports of the chemical make-up?, or just the pics?

Sorry to intrude, because there are a lot of brilliant minds already taking a stab, but I would have to say it is a hoof/nail that has not been exposed to much wear and tear. Hence the extra curved point. Think Guiness Books "Longest Nails"

No intrusion at all!!

There are 2 PhD and 1 masters students working on fish gut contents for the next few years, and this sort of problem is just a taste of things to come. Classifying animals based on fragmentary remains .... it's an artform.

Myopsida seems supremely confident that this is a bit of fish, John that it's a bit of turtle, and others (like your fine self) that it's an overgrown toenail/hoof. That vascularisation/porosity must be a dead giveaway .... I don't think all the beasts in question would have structure like this; problem is I'm not familiar with horse hoofs, fish lips or turtle bits, so am in no position to comment. Would love to get to the bottom of this, but need access to museum collections to do so ...

Yes, and my hooves are not available for dissection, sorry. :twisted:

Oops... :nofeet:

:roflmao:

Thank you! :notworth:

I do believe all species mentioned, will have a pourous make-up within these different body structures. Are there any tests to show if this is calcium, or enamel?

TF - :lol: Wie Gehts? Nein, keine Feusse!

Gad, I believe titenfisch is right - its the "nail" from half a sheep's foot :notworth:
(they have the 'cloven hoof' so it would have a matching half)

I'm in the mammalian nail/claw/hoof camp too. The porous looking structure (subunguis?) does seem to have directional growth lines, unless my eyes are playing tricks with me, which would seem to be consistant with mammalian physiology.

But I could be completely wrong!

Quote on nails fronm the Uni of Colorado:

Mammalian claws are similar to claws of reptiles and birds, embracing and enhancing the tip of each digit. A claw is composed of a harder dorsal plate called the unguis and a softer ventral plate termed the subunguis. The subunguis is continued by the cushion-like pad. Mammals like dogs and cats walk on these pads. In cross-section unguis and subunguis form a U-shaped structure with the unguis enclosing the subunguis. The downward curve is caused by a higher growth rate of the upper surface of the unguis. A claw is thicker in the median line than at the sides. The sides wear more quickly than the center, producing a more or less sharp point. In addition to the protection of the digits, claws are used in many ways for climbing, digging, hanging, or grasping and even killing prey.


Here's a semi-useful nail diagram:

http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/download.php?id=1982

Phil,

Its the shape that has me at a loss, though. If only I had the specimen here I could give a thumbs up/thumbs down on the turtle idea. Hoofs aren't out of the question, but what mammals hang out in that region that have them? Also, is there any indication that this opbject was broken from a cloven hoof, or worn down in any way?

John

Emperor mentioned that there are a lot of goats in that area, and myopsida suggested that a sheep's hoof (fairly similar) would also be about the same shape and size. The overgrown bit at the end does seem strange, if the ungulate were running up and down hills all day... but the presence on a river bank isn't that surprising. I have found all kinds of mammalian remains (in various conditions) washed up beside flowing water. The weirdest one was probably a human femur beside Bull Run Creek near Washington, D.C.; because the bone was fairly old (over a hundred years) and had a surprisingly round hole through the knee, and the creek runs through former Civil War battlefields north of the spot where I found it, I think it was from a soldier.

:cthulhu:

.... well the next challenge becomes one of tracking down what goat species live in the area, then sourcing a pic of its hoof(s), front and rear, inner and outer, left and right legs, male and female (but no middle bits!).....

... Honestly, this has been a rather fascinating exercise; it would be nice to direct the reporter to this site to see how the mystery object was identified by process of elimination.

It is very symmetrical; would one see such symmetry in a goat hoof/clove (onion, tomatoe ... whatever it was called)? Would this lend support to the turtle idea?

Ps, is 'cloave' or 'cloaf' the correct singular for the 2 halves of the cloaved hoof?

.... ooops (Ed), 'clove' or 'clofe'

me thinks it cloven hoof.

Steve,

Yeah, I would doubt that such a shape could be made of a cloven hoof, though it is an interesting theory. Do you folks have a herpetologist on staff @ U of Aukland?

Oh, and my physiology instructor spent time at Aukland U this winter studying bats. You Nuzies have a great species that forage on the ground.


John

Ja, tiz called Tintenbatus nocturnalforagensae; has a habit of being quick toungued and stealing priceless artefacts from walls when you're not aware! A second species, a one-off-hybrid between the two (an experiment gone wrong) is Tintenbatus ummmmmmummmmmmensis ..... (very rare .... only 4 offspring known).

has anyone considered the various appendages of the one eyed, one horned flying purple people eater? :grad:

Emperor mentioned that there are a lot of goats in that area, and myopsida suggested that a sheep's hoof (fairly similar) would also be about the same shape and size. The overgrown bit at the end does seem strange, if the ungulate were running up and down hills all day... but the presence on a river bank isn't that surprising.

I should say that as well as goats there are wide flat areas with lots of framing so it could easily be just about any local ungulate (donkeys, horses and sheep being the most common).

Emps

has any one eaten chinese spare ribs lately it looks like a slitly over cooked bone of one ( im no expert on anything so correct me if im wrong)

:yuck: Personally, I try not to eat the Chinese whenever I can. I find that Koreans taste better. (Sorry. :roll:)

:roflmao:

Do Koreans have "spare" ribs?

:feet:
South Koreans do.

:P I think it's part of a jackelope, or a wolperdinger.

"Two legged mutton is a dish best served cold...and it is very, very cold in space, Captain Kirk..."

Greg

.... but are we any closer to confirming the identity of mystery object?

Uh, not to overstate the obvious Steve, but I believe YOU have the said object de weirdness :P I say take to to a herpetologist, then a mammalogist, the put your right foot in, then you shake it all about....

I'd say that's what its all about.

Sushi and Weird Bone Fragments,

John

It mostly looks like a piece of goat hoof...they sell them here at stores as dog treats ( :?: ) , showing the same sort of blood grooving on the inside, with the sheeted bone appearance on the outside...and the dimensions seem correct (ish). I have seen a lot of turtle/tortoise beaks, even fossilized...and I haven't seen that kind of porous structure on the inside of them, but I have only seen american species also, so I could be wrong...I guess my vote is for the hoof theory...
Greg

Uh, not to overstate the obvious Steve, but I believe YOU have the said object de weirdness :P I say take to to a herpetologist, then a mammalogist, the put your right foot in, then you shake it all about....


Ney, sadly ... I've just got pics too :bonk: ; I'll direct the reporter here and he can make up his own mind ... never thought of going down to a butcher and asking for goats feet, but that's certainly one way to eliminate a possibility.

D'oh!

Well, at least you can still do the hokey pokey 8)

John

But shouldn't. Unless you're gonna film it.