View Full Version : [Article]: Cephalopod Fossils: Myths and Legends (by Phil)
tonmo
Jan 19, '04, 11:21am
Phil Eyden has submitted the following article for your reading (and viewing) enjoyment:
Myths and Legends (http://www.tonmo.com/science/fossils/mythdoc/mythdoc.php)
Great content -- thanks Phil for your contribution!
Architeuthoceras
Jan 19, '04, 8:41pm
Another great job Phil :notworth:
Very interesting stuff.
I will have to look into finding fossil cephalopods in all the anazazi ruins around here. I know they find alot of trilobites with drilled holes, probably used as beads and such.
Phil,
Extremely interesting stuff, as usual.
I wonder if powdered ammonite mightn't serve some medicinal function, depending on the mineral composition of the rock. Not in the eyes, though.
"In 1586 William Camden in his Britannia recorded stones that ‘if you break them you will find within stony serpents, wreathed up in circles, but generally without heads’."
Almost sounds like Camden got his hands on a soft-body fossil with a preserved armature, doesn't it?
:heee:
Clem
Thanks very much Kevin and Clem,
Almost sounds like Camden got his hands on a soft-body fossil with a preserved armature, doesn't it?
It does indeed! Maybe Camden was sitting on a stash of unique ammonite fossils that have been sealed up in a vault somewhere. If we can locate his finds we may be able to solve the secret of ammonite soft-bodied morphology once and for all!
...Er.....maybe not..... :)
Anyway, did you know that many other fossil types have legends associated with them? For example the Utah Pahvant Indians frequently threaded trilobites into necklaces as these fossils were believed to give protection in battle and ward off evil spirits. Such specimens, usually Elrathia, were given the name shugi-pits t'schoy, meaning lizard foot bead things, or timpe khanitza pachavee, meaning little water bug like stone house in. In a similar manner to the adoption of the ammonite in Whitby in Yorkshire into the towns coat-of-arms, Dudley in the West Midlands, UK, has adopted the locally occuring Calymene trilobite onto its heraldic shield.
Some bivalve marine molluscs were known as 'Devils Toenails' due to their curved shape. Crinoid stems were recorded in seventeenth century England as 'Star-stones' due to the shape of the cross section and were believed to be of heavenly origin. Similarly, sea urchins were frequently referred to as 'Shepherd's Crowns' or 'Fairy Pillows'. As 'Fairy Loaves' these echinoderms were once believed to be loaves of bread turned to stone, but to keep one in the pantry was an omen that the owners would never be short of bread....
....one can go on...this would make a fascinating research topic, methinks.
:cthulhu:
Architeuthoceras
Jan 21, '04, 4:54pm
I'm sure the Pahvants found goniatites out where they found the trilobites, but possibly just considered them "deer droppings in a rock house" (dont know the translation) and figured they didnt have medicinal or spiritual powers. :wink:
Still checking though! Have to get in touch with some of the local archaeologists I know.
....one can go on...
Please do :!: :)
Architeuthoceras
Mar 16, '04, 3:26pm
http://www.gtlsys.com/images/trilo_native.jpg
I don't see any cephalopods hangin there, just trilobites
Great stuff Phil :notworth:
J
Emperor
Jun 14, '04, 7:57am
I thought this would be interesting on a similar (if non-ceph) theme:
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/06/12/arts/12MAYO.html?pagewanted=2
She has done a number of books on similar themes with the legends of different areas/periods:
http://hometown.aol.com/afmayor/myhomepage/
Emps
Architeuthoceras
Aug 05, '04, 2:54pm
Some new pages on fossil folklore from the NHM (London)
Ammonites (http://www.nhm.ac.uk/palaeontology/fossilfolklore/fossil_types/ammonites.htm)
Belemnites (http://www.nhm.ac.uk/palaeontology/fossilfolklore/fossil_types/belemnites.htm)
Look out for the upside down nautilus in the ammonite section. :)
some great references at the end
and check out the links (way to go TONMO and Phil)
Thanks for the links, Kevin.
and check out the links (way to go TONMO and Phil)
That's a great link to see on such a prestigious site!
Kevin, if it wasn't for yourself and all the fantastic contributions from all the members, far too numerous to mention, who have contributed to 'Fossils' over the last couple of years, I'm sure we wouldn't be there.
So many thanks to you and everyone who has contributed, provided help, or just lurked and read!
:notworth: :glass:
(...we are not going away just yet!)
Phil,
That's really a very nice bit of recognition. Congratulations, Sir.
:beer:
Clem
Melissa
Aug 06, '04, 8:43am
Wonderful recognition of the Fossils and History forum! Congratulations!
:cheers:
Melissa
This is extremely interesting and I wish I'd been aware of this when I wrote the 'Myths and Legends' article as I certainly would have included it.
Just over 10,000 years ago, twenty one individuals were buried inside a cave at Burrington Combe in the Mendip Hills in south-west England. These Mesolithic burials represent the earliest known British cemetary. Interestingly, a set of ammonites were found associated with the burials.
It is, of course, easy to see any seemingly 'out-of-place' object as having ritual significance, but it is tempting to see these ammonites in such a context. Certainly our cave-dwelling ancestors thought they were worth keeping, so could possibly they have seen them in a religious vein?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3130348.stm
That IS interesting.
Those blokes would've loved TONMO.com! :mrgreen: Perhaps we all carry their reincarnated spirits. 8)
Emperor
Nov 06, '04, 12:54pm
It is, of course, easy to see any seemingly 'out-of-place' object as having ritual significance, but it is tempting to see these ammonites in such a context. Certainly our cave-dwelling ancestors thought they were worth keeping, so could possibly they have seen them in a religious vein?
This is a tricky issue and (while I'm still searhcing for the specific references) there are claims for Neadnerthal's having an understanding of aethetics due to various fossils and minerals in Middle Palaeolithic assemblages. Although (as far as I'm aware) none of the fossils are actually cephs (largly gastropods and bivalves)
I'm struggling to find the paper I was thinking of but there is a good general review here:
Chase, P.G. & Dibble, H.L. (1987) Middle Paleolithic symbolism: A review of the current evidence and interpretations. Journal of Anthropological Archaeology. 6 (3). 263 - 96.
Its probably this (or one of his many other publications):
Marshack, A. (1988b) The Neanderthals and their human capacity for symbolic thought: Cognitive and problem-solving aspects of Mousterian symbol. In Bar-Yosef, O. (ed.) L’Homme Neanderthal. Vol 6. La Pensée. Etudes et Recherches Archéologiques de l’Université Liège 33. ERAUL, Liège. 57 - 92.
but be wary:
Bar-Yosef, O. (1988) Evidence for Middle Palaeolithic symbolic behaviour: A cautionary note. In Bar-Yosef, O. (ed.) L'Homme de Neanderthal. Vol 5. La Pensée. Etudes et Recherches Archéologiques de l’Université Liège 32. ERAUL, Liège. 11 - 16.
I did a quick search and found this:
http://www.asa3.org/archive/evolution/199608/0249.html
and both mineral and fossil collection may have oroginated earlier in the Lower Palaeolithic (with crinoids):
Goren-Inbar, N., Lewy, Z. & Kislev, M.E. (1991) Bead-like fossils from an Acheulian occupation site, Israel. Rock Art Research. 8. 133 - 6.
However, we should be cautious about reading too much into it. I doubt we can infer a religious element to the inclusion of the ammonites but it is certainly intriguing ;)
This is extremely interesting and I wish I'd been aware of this when I wrote the 'Myths and Legends' article as I certainly would have included it.
Well if you want to reprise and expand your article on fossil cephs and mythology then it does sound like something the Fortean Times might be interested in - after all you have already been published on their pages ;)
Emps
Many thanks for these links, Emperor.
I had no idea about the Neanderthal ‘collections’ and will certainly try to find out more, so thanks for the heads-up.
It’s unfortunate that the BBC report does not indicate how exactly the ammonites were found; whether they were scattered randomly around or associated in groups with specific burials. Some idea of distribution might give a clue to the purpose of the collections. Mind you, I’d imagine that as the humans were just 10,000 years old they would have little different to ourselves physically their mental abilities would have been the same, so there is no reason to suppose that the ammonites might have been gathered purely out of curiosity, as some of us still do!
It appears that D T Donovan (who has written many papers on fossil cephalopods) wrote a paper on the ammonites in 1968 called “The Ammonites and other fossils from Aveline's hole (Burrington Combe, Somerset)” in vol. 11 of the UBSS Proceedings. Doubtless this would be from a palaeontological perspective rather than an archaeological one, but might shed some light on the finds. It’d be great if someone could track the paper down for this site.
By the way Emperor as I know you do a great deal of moderating for the Fortean Times site, do you really think FT would be interested in a version of the Myths article? What sort of length do you think it would need to be? I might be very interested in writing one!
Cheers,
Phil
Fujisawas Sake
Nov 08, '04, 12:14pm
Phil :grad:
Great article. I like the fact that cephalopods have always held such great fascination for our species. Beats the hell outta my cephs in anime thread! :notworth:
So, my question is how similar do you think the modern-day nautilus is to the ammonite? The reason I ask is that I'm trying to consider something on ceph neurology again, and a good idea of the internals of the ancestral forms makes for an interesting comparison.
John
So, my question is how similar do you think the modern-day nautilus is to the ammonite? The reason I ask is that I'm trying to consider something on ceph neurology again, and a good idea of the internals of the ancestral forms makes for an interesting comparison.
Hi John,
I'm going to cop out a little on that answer for now due to lack of time, but if have a look at the 'Nautiloids' (http://www.tonmo.com/science/fossils/nautiloids.php) article and scroll down to the 'Ammonites' section, I listed quite a few differences there. I thought it would be better to refer you to that bit as opposed to myself typing it out all over again, hope you don't mind.
As far as I know I don't think anyone has tried doing comparative work on the neurology of fossil cephs and I'd imagine it would be almost impossible. As there has not been a single convincing soft bodied ammonite fossil found, I'd imagine reconstructing its internal organisation would be tantamount to educated guesswork.
If I find any interesting ammonite /nautilus comparison websites I'll drop you a line.
Phil
Emperor
Nov 08, '04, 8:28pm
Phil: No worries - glad it helped. The earliest evidence for some kind of aesthetic appreciation goes back to the Australopithecines at Makapansgat who seem to have colleected a pebble with a 'human' ace on it - not very sophisticated but....... Also the fossils I mentioned were unmodified there is a famous nummulite fossil found at Tata which was cracked across the middle and someone (in the Middle Palaeolithic) incised a line at right angles across it. There is an interesting overview here:
www.originsnet.org/mindmp.html
The USBS report? I'd contact English Heritage in the area:
http://accessibility.english-heritage.org.uk/default.asp?WCI=Node&WCE=190
They might be abl to provide you with more information/reports and possibly send them to you.
I'll PM you about the FT matters.
Emps
corw314
Nov 08, '04, 9:34pm
:notworth: Very interesting and congrats!!! Think I need a few for under my pillow!!! :mrgreen:
Carol
Architeuthoceras
Nov 08, '04, 10:14pm
Saunders, W. B. and P. D. Ward, 1994, Nautilus is not a model for the function and behavior of ammonoids. Lethaia 27: 47-48.
I havnt read it, but I always wanted to, looks like it may be what your looking for John. :sushi: :wine:
Cephkid
Dec 04, '04, 11:33am
Thanks for that. (Now I get to have that be my subject for my project in latin. Just need to find more web sites.)
Now, I'm not sure I understand this, but some of the more spiritually minded readers might know what is going on here (http://thestar.com.my/health/story.asp?file=/2006/7/9/health/14774825&sec=health). The Australian chap who wrote the report appears to be meditating upon ammonites on behalf of the Malaysian Armed Forces in some form of officer training programme.
No, I don't understand either.
sorseress
Aug 01, '06, 2:21pm
Well, there are a whole lot of people in the world who meditate using the chakras. I believe the Kabbalah studies use them, and I'm not sure how many other spiritual disciplines do, but I think there are quite a few. Each chakra is at a specific point in the body, and the meditator starts at the lowest one and meditates on that, (which is usually associated with a specific color), and grdually works his way to the top. The article says there are nine, I have a book on meditation that says there are seven main ones, plus others. The use of crystals is supposed to help you focus on the chakra that matches the color of the crystal, at least that's how I understand it. I'd never heard about associating an ammonite with them before, but in a way it makes sense, because the chakras are supposed to be whirling discs of light energy, or something like that. I kind of like the idea of finding my inner ammonite! :earlyammo :smile:
This popped up in my inbox yesterday. It's an article on how ammonites are worshipped in Nepal as incarnations of the Hindu god Vishnu.
The Saligrams of Nepal (http://english.ohmynews.com/articleview/article_view.asp?no=313204&rel_no=1)
erich orser
Aug 26, '06, 6:46am
This popped up in my inbox yesterday. It's an article on how ammonites are worshipped in Nepal as incarnations of the Hindu god Vishnu.
The Saligrams of Nepal (http://english.ohmynews.com/articleview/article_view.asp?no=313204&rel_no=1)
As they darn-well rightfully SHOULD be!
Spoken like a true Cthulhu cultist there Erich.
UK readers might be interested to pop along to the a new exhibition called 'Fossil Folklore', This has just opened at the Walter Rothschild Zoological Museum in Tring, Hertfordshire, and will run until 8 July. Ammonites will feature heavily, of course. You can read all about it here (http://news.independent.co.uk:80/world/science_technology/article2259490.ece).
Hi Phil,
Fascinating link you posted about Nepalese ammonites, but I didn't catch the derivation of that word, saligram. Did I miss it? Great material.
Cheers,
Clem
Thanks Clem, I must admit I had rather forgotten about Saligrams. It seems that they are rather important in Hindu spiritual belief as they give protection for crossing rivers and streams. I've found a couple more interesting links for you about them; the first is a little more background information (http://157.140.2.10/nature-online/earth/fossils/fossil-folklore/fossil_types/ammonites06.htm), the second actually shows an ammonite fossil as a centrepiece of a ritual. (http://www.gosai.com/chaitanya/deities/salagram-sila.html)
hallucigenia
Feb 14, '07, 1:41am
Etymology of the word "saligram": corruption of "chalgram" from the Indian town called Chalagrama where they found a bunch of them. So says the OED, at least.
It's not as Greek as one might suppose, then. Huh. That wouldn't have been my guess.