Prospero año nuevo a todos los amigos, amigas, y calamares....

Inspired by an exchange with Fujisawas Sake (John) on another thread, I thought it might be fun to add a new one for 2003 dealing with cephs in traditional (as opposed to pop) culture, folklore, arts and literature.

I'd like to kick it off with an excerpt from a book that should be especially close to Steve-O's and Kat's hearts -- PACIFIC MYTHOLOGY: AN ENCYCLOPEDIA OF MYTH AND LEGEND by Jan Knappert, 1995 edition, Diamond Books, London. Surprisingly, I could find no entries under Cephalopod, Cuttlefish, Nautilus, or Squid. However, when I looked under Octopus, it said "See Kupe." Here is what I found under the latter entry:

KUPE: According to legend, a man named Kupe was fishing near his home on Raiatea when an octopus stole his fishhooks with its many arms. Enraged, Kupe jumped into his canoe and pursued the beast for 35 days. By that time he had covered 2,400 miles to the south-west and there he sighted an island larger than any he had ever seen before: North Island, New Zealand. He sailed back and invited his compatriots to follow him to the new found land. They did so and became the Maoris.

-- from PACIFIC MYTHOLOGY, page 162 (paperback)

I don't know where Raiatea is, or whether there really was such a place, but perhaps our Antipodean contingent can fill us in as to whether there is some historical truth about the geographical origins of the Maori in this legend.

TONMOers, feel free to add to this thread with any ceph symbolism, legend, lore, and myth that you can find, online or otherwise.

(And if you don't mind some off-topic factoids every now and then, PACIFIC MYTHOLOGY also contains entries for Kat, Tangaroa, and Taniwha.)

Let's see if we can expand this thread into a GOLDEN BOUGH of teuthophilia! :idea:

Tani, Transmitter of Teuthsome Tales

There is something fascinating about the giant squid that taps into our fear and curiosity.

-- from http://www.giantsquidcenter.com/

IMHO, there is indeed something primal about Architeuthis-as-archetype. Does it symbolize our own subconscious, lurking in the shadowy depths below the surface of our "higher" mind, difficult to conceptualize for the very reason that it is so inseparable a part of us? The human mind studying itself must, by definition, affect the object of its study. It is elusive, like Architeuthis. "Squid = Id"? Why not?

The seemingly paradoxical "fear and curiosity" reaction, I believe, comes from the simultaneously familiar and alien features of the animal. Too many legs, rocket-shaped body, predatory beak, gargantuan size -- alien. Great human-like eyes, dexterity of limbs, ease of movement -- familiar. Though we have not yet seen any living adults, we take pleasure in artistic representations of them. Even though they may raise a shudder in some observers, we remain fixated upon their image. We want to know them, as we want to know ourselves, in spite of ourselves.... dark corners and all.

What would Jung say? Freud? Any and all contributions of ceph legends, and commentary/analysis by TONMOers, would be most appreciated.

My :twocents:,
Tani

As I recall, in 'Island of the Blue Dolphins' there's mention of hunting the 'devilfish,' an enormous octopus of probably exaggerated size and aggression. I think there's also brief mention of what the native American peoples who encountered them (coastal, I suppose :) ) thought/believed about them, at least those living on the northern west coast of North America.
Hm, a vague and unresearched post. Anyone else know more about this?

Heya!

Yeah, I remember reading an old Polynesian or Hawaiian legend about a greedy shark who nearly gets himself killed by a lazy octopus reef guardian who puts the squeeze on shark (literally) for waking him up from his nap.

I'm a-Freud I don't have much insight on fear (groan!) :lol: , but I think that we need our monsters. We need some mysteries out there, some lurking horror (BLATANT Lovecraft plug) to strike some fear... I think it has something to do with fear keeping us a bit sharp and wary of the world around us... I have no idea.

Well, that's my two clams worth...

John

Hi John!

I like your theory about "fear keeping us a bit sharp and wary of the world around us." Not to go too much off-topic, but I remember reading a book called THE GIFT OF FEAR which encourages people to distinguish between unfounded paranoia and the "gut instinct" which is an evolutionary survival advantage in avoiding potentially dangerous situations (e.g., not taking a shortcut through Central Park at 2 a.m. with a roll of $100s sticking out of your pocket!).

Back on-topic, I loved the contribution about the octo defeating the shark -- please let us know if you find out any more details about this.

Here is something I gleaned from a beautiful book titled NA PULE KAHIKO: ANCIENT HAWAIIAN PRAYERS, by June Gutmanis, Editions Limited, Honolulu, Hawaii, 1983. By way of explanation, Kanaloa -- god of the deep ocean -- is one of the four great male gods in traditional Hawaiian religion. According to Gutmanis, Kanaloa is the 'aumakua (guardian spirit) of the squid and octopus. He is also associated with the west (called the "much traveled road of Kanaloa"), with ocean winds, and with bananas. Additionally, he is often associated with healing.

Following are two prayers -- preceded by explanations and followed with English transations -- taken from NA PULE KAHIKO:

This prayer to Kanaloa is one used in treating a sick person. After putting the patient to bed without medicine, the treating kahuna [healer - TD] recites the following over the sick person:

E Kanaloa, ke akua ka hee!
Eia kau mai o (inoa)
E ka hee o kai uli,
Ka hee o ka lua one,
Ka hee i ka papa.
Ka hee pio!
Eia ka oukou mai, o (inoa)
He mai hoomoe ia no ka hee palaha.

O Kanaloa, god of the squid!
Here is your patient, (name)
O squid of the deep blue sea,
Squid the inhabits the coral reef,
Squid that burrows in the sand,
Squid that squirts water from its sack!
Here is a sick man for you to heal, (name)
A patient put to bed for treatment
by the squid the lies flat.

Toward morning a fisherman is sent out to catch a hee mahola, that is, an octopus which is lying on the sand, outside its hole, with its legs extended on the ocean floor. While letting down his hook and lure the fisherman prays as follows:

Eia ka leho,
He leho ula no ka heehoopai.
Eia ka kao, he laau,
He lama no ka hee-mahola, no ka hee-palaha.
E Kanaloa i ke Ku,
Kulia ke papa,
Kulia i ka papa hee!
Kulia ka hee o kai uli!
E ala, e Kanaloa!
Hoeu! hoala! e ala ka hee!
E ala ka hee-palaha! E ala ka hee-mahola!

Here is the cowry,
A red cowry to attract the squid to his death.
Here is the spear, a mere stick,
A spear of lama wood for the squid that lies flat.
O Kanaloa of the tabu nights,
Stand upright on the solid floor!
Stand upon the floor where lies the squid!
Stand up to take the squid of the deep sea!
Rise up, O Kanaloa!
Stir up! agitate! let the squid awake!
Let the squid that lies flat awake,
the squid that lies spread out.

-- from NA PULE KAHIKO: ANCIENT HAWAIIAN PRAYERS, page 6

It's interesting that "octopus" and "squid" appear to be interchangeable in the Hawaiian language. Or, perhaps, "octopus" is referred to as "the squid that lies flat." Not having studied Hawaiian language -- though it's one of my dreams to do so someday! -- I don't know if this is correct. Perhaps one of our New Xenaland contingent may know enough Maori to solve this for us (since I believe all Polynesian languages are strongly related).

Aloha,
Tani

Well, as resident wannabe kiwi, afraid I can't shed much light on the etymology of octopus/squid being the same, although I'm pretty sure that 'wheke' does mean both in Maori, and 'feke' likewise in Tongan (since, yes, the Polynesian languages are very closely linked - for example, the god mentioned in the above prayer as Kanaloa is easily recognizable as Tangaloa in (I think) Maori (although maybe Fijian) (and there are way too many sets of ()s in here).
Clear as mud? ;)

(And if you don't mind some off-topic factoids every now and then, PACIFIC MYTHOLOGY also contains entries for Kat, Tangaroa, and Taniwha.)


Do tell, don't Tanitalise :D

Do tell, don't Tanitalise :D

OK, You Asked For It!

KAT: The Good God of the Banks Islanders, who taught the people how to hollow out a tree trunk and make a canoe.



TANGAROA: ([i]Maori; Kanaloa, Hawaiian; Tangaloa, Tongan; Tagaloa, Samoan; Ta'aroa, Tahitian) The Polynesian God of the Ocean, the Polynesian Poseidon, son of the Earth-Goddess Papa, who had so much water in her body that it swelled up one day and burst forth, becoming the ocean. Tangaroa breathes only twice in 24 hours, so huge is he. We call that the tidal movement. His brother is Rongo, who was, according to some myths, the same as Maui, the Fisher of Islands, the inventor of sail-ships.

Tangaroa is shown in some famous sculptures as the Creator, out of whose body the creatures emerge, including human beings. The Indian god Brahma created nature in a similar fashion. The myth of the Ocean-God as the Creator is explained by the myth of Ika-Tere, the Fish-God, some of whose children were partly human, like mermaids and mermen, although often the right side was fish while the left side was human. Gradually they became all-human.

In Tahuata (the Marquesas), Tangaroa is known as Tanaoa, the God of the Primeval Darkness (like Chaos, one of the oldest gods, according to Hesiod). At a given morning a new god, Atea, "Space," emerged, freeing himself so that there was room for Atanua, "Dawn," to arise. She married Atea, since light can only exist in, or together with, space. Their child was Tu-Mea, the first man. Tanaoa was confined to the depths of the ocean, where darkness and silence still reign.

[There are many fascinating points in the above definition. For one thing, they confirm Tintenfisch's statement about the fact that Kanaloa is the Hawaiian equivalent of Tangaroa, and about the strong similarities of the various Polynesian languages.

Secondly, the Marquesan "children of the fish-god" myth -- like "The Shadow Over Innsmouth" in reverse! -- pre-dates and accurately predicts Darwin's concept of life originally evolving in the sea.

Similarly -- though I know very little about the science of cosmology -- it seems to me that the Marquesan "creation" myth in the third paragraph, may be a very early predecessor of the Big Bang theory, in which Light and Space emerge simultaneously from the primal chaos. That may be pure coincidence, but it certainly shows great insignt into the way the world works from a society which some modern nations may arrogantly consider "primitive." -- TD]

TANIWHA: A huge monster like a dragon or an enormous lizard which once lived in numbers in the caves and lakes in the mountains of New Zealand. Two of them were slain by the hero Pitaka.

[Dammit, Jim, I'm a bioluminescent cephalopod, not a reptile! -- TD]

-- all definitions from PACIFIC MYTHOLOGY: AN ENCYCLOPEDIA OF MYTH AND LEGEND by Jan Knappert

Let's keep those myths, legends, literature, folklore, art, psychology, and symbolism coming, gang....

Tani
Not a Meanie

KAT: The Good God of the Banks Islanders, who taught the people how to hollow out a tree trunk and make a canoe.

I thought everyone knew this... ? :mrgreen: (Actually the only other definition I knew for 'Kat' is 'a south African shrub chewed as a stimulant' - also spelled 'khat' or even better 'qat' - making it an invaluable Scrabble word ;) ).

Hey, speaking of Lovecraft and mythology, my grandmother (an Elder Being, LOL) saved a newspaper article for me from November, about a research vessel taking sonar readings of the ocean floor just west of Cuba, and finding a series of remarkably geometric formations that could without too much imagination-stretch be construed as ruins of a civilization... under 2000' of water! The stone blocks are along the lines of 8'x10', circular, square and pyramid-shaped.
... Hello, Lovecraft fans... ?!! :cthulhu:

So did anyone else hear about this?

... And here are a couple links to articles I found on a cursory search:

http://www.spiritofmaat.com/announce/cubacity.htm

http://www.rense.com/general25/city.htm

Of course the mainstream take is that it's an ancient human civilization, but we know better... iä! Iä!

Hello!!
In reply to an early question about the location of Raiatea... I believe it is an island in the Society Islands of French Polynesia, to which Tahiti belongs. The Marquesas are another group of islands in French Polynesia. I happened to pick up a slightly older travel guide called "Tahiti and French Polynesia a travel survival kit". I have found it very interesting. I gather from the book that the Marquesas were established first and then Hawaii, New Zealand, Easter Island, and Tahiti were discovered and established from there. I wonder if Maori and Tahitian mythology concerning octopus and squid would be similar? It seems that might be true since the cultures share similar creation mythology and such. No mention of cephs. :(

KAT: The Good God of the Banks Islanders, who taught the people how to hollow out a tree trunk and make a canoe.

I thought everyone knew this... ? :mrgreen:

Cough, choke, splutter, spit, gasp! She could hollow out a tree trunk and make a canoe with her wit, but that 'good God' business is taking it too far!!! :mrgreen:

This work of Alfred, Lord Tennyson (1809-1892) was posted on the old board many moons ago, but as the ultimate Archi poem, it deserves a special place in any anthology of classical ceph literature:

THE KRAKEN

Below the thunders of the upper deep;
Far, far beneath in the abysmal sea,
His ancient, dreamless, uninvaded sleep
The Kraken sleepeth: faintest sunlights flee
About his shadowy sides: above him swell
Huge sponges of millennial growth and height;
And far away into the sickly light,
From many a wondrous grot and secret cell
Unnumber'd and enormous polypi
Winnow with giant arms the slumbering green.
There hath he lain for ages and will lie
Battening upon huge seaworms in his sleep,
Until the latter fire shall heat the deep;
Then once by men and angels to be seen,
In roaring he shall rise and on the surface die.

Yes, they like to use that poem in various squid films... most recently a crew of students from Auckland doing a Master's in film spliced little bits of it into their production. Sets a nice mood. :)

While the following is not an ancient legend, it is more accurately included here than under a regular "Pop Culture" forum due to its source -- THE SECRET DOCTRINE, a massive 1888 compendium of the world's esoteric traditions, by Theosophical Society founder Madame Helena P. Blavatsky, who in turn quotes another author below:

Victor Hugo was ridiculed for . . . . his marvellous word-painting of the devil-fish, and his description of a man becoming its helpless victim. "The thing was derided as an impossibility; yet within a few years were discovered, on the shores of Newfoundland, cuttle fish with arms extending to thirty feet in length, and capable of dragging a good-sized boat beneath the surface; and their action has been reproduced for centuries past . . . . by Japanese artists." ("Mythical Monsters," p. II Introd.).

-- THE SECRET DOCTRINE by H.P. Blavatsky, Vol. 2, pp. 440-441 (ellipses and italics by author)

While perpetuating the sensationalist image of Architeuthis as a ravenous monster -- and tacitly accepting the quoted author's inaccurate description of Archi as a cuttlefish rather than a squid -- HPB at least regards its existence as fact rather than fabrication.

What would Jung say? Freud? Any and all contributions of ceph legends, and commentary/analysis by TONMOers, would be most appreciated.

i shudder to think what freud would have to say about squid, with the shape, ink and what not.... and im sure he'd have a field day about dying after mating...

i shudder to think what freud would have to say about squid, with the shape, ink and what not.... and im sure he'd have a field day about dying after mating...

:lol: Either that, or he'd take a couple of puffs on his cigar and say, "Sometimes a squid is just a squid."

While Tennyson's poem "The Kraken" evokes a vivid image of vastness and awe, the following work (by a great 19th century American Transcendentalist) uses the most beautiful of cephs as an extended metaphor for the spiritual growth of the human individual. Enjoy!

THE CHAMBERED NAUTILUS

This is the ship of pearl, which, poets feign,
Sails the unshadowed main --
The venturous bark that flings
On the sweet summer wind its purpled wings
In gulfs enchanted, where the Siren sings,
And coral reefs lie bare,
Where the cold sea-maids rise to sun their streaming hair.

Its webs of living gauze no more unfurl;
Wrecked is the ship of pearl!
And every chambered cell,
Where its dim dreaming life was wont to dwell,
As the frail tenant shaped his growing shell,
Before thee lies revealed --
Its irised ceiling rent, its sunless crypt unsealed!

Year after year beheld the silent toil
That spread his lustrous coil;
Still, as the spiral grew,
He left the past year's dwelling for the new,
Stole with soft step its shining archway through,
Built up its idle door,
Stretched in his last-found home, and knew the old no more.

Thanks for the heavenly message brought by thee,
Child of the wandering sea,
Cast from her lap, forlorn!
From thy dead lips a clearer note is born
Than ever Triton blew from wreathèd horn;
While on mine ear it rings,
Through the deep caves of thought I hear a voice that sings:

Build thee more stately mansions, O my soul,
As the swift seasons roll!
Leave thy low-vaulted past!
Let each new temple, nobler than the last,
Shut thee from heaven with a dome more vast,
Till thou at length art free,
Leaving thine outgrown shell by life's unresting sea!

-- by Oliver Wendell Holmes (1809-1894)

It is of interest that Holmes was apparently accused of confusing the Chambered Nautilus with the Paper Nautilus (Argonaut), as the following critique suggests:

"We need not trouble ourselves about the distinction between this [the pearly Nautilus] and the Paper Nautilus, the Argonauta of the ancients. The name applied to both shows that each has long been compared to a ship, as you may see more fully in Webster's Dictionary or the Encyclopedia, to which he refers. If you will look into Roget's Bridgewater Treatise you will find a figure of one of these shells and a section of it. The last will show you the series of enlarging compartments successively dwelt in by the animal that inhabits the shell, which is built in a widening spiral. [This poem seemed to share with Dorothy Q. Dr. Holmes's interest, if one may judge by the frequency with which he chose it for reading or for autograph albums. He says on receipt of an album from the Princess of Wales, `I copied into it the last verse of a poem of mine called The Chambered Nautilus, as I have often done for plain republican albums.']" (p. 149)

"I have now and then found a naturalist who still worried over the distinction between the Pearly Nautilus and the Paper Nautilus, or Argonauta. As the stories about both are mere fables, attaching to the Physalia, or Portuguese man-of-war, as well as to these two molluscs, it seems over-nice to quarrel with the poetical handling of a fiction sufficiently justified by the name commonly applied to the ship of pearl as well as the ship of paper." (p. 341)

-- from REPRESENTATIVE POETRY ONLINE by Ian Lancashire

Though I personally love the spiritual aspects of the poem, IMHO it can be appreciated by anyone who has fallen in love with the mystical grace and beauty of either species.

Tani

"uses the most beautiful of cephs" ? ..... i see objectivity has gone right out the window....

"uses the most beautiful of cephs" ? ..... i see objectivity has gone right out the window....

Oh all right, so I used a little "poetic license"! But if I were being totally objective, they'd accuse me of personal bias, or at least nepotism:

"I feel pretty, oh so pretty...."

Link 1 (http://seawifs.gsfc.nasa.gov/OCEAN_PLANET/HTML/squid_Taningia.html)

And I'm not the only one who thinks so:

Link 2 (http://www.taningia.com/taningia.asp)

These are my baby pictures -- was I adorable, or what?

Link 3 (http://tolweb.org/tree/eukaryotes/animals/mollusca/cephalopoda/coleoidea/decapodiformes/lepidoteuthid_families/octopoteuthidae/taningia/taningiaLichen/TaningiaLichen.html)

Even Richard Ellis thinks I'm cute:

Link 4 (http://is.dal.ca/~ceph/TCP/Tdanae.html)

But you're entitled to your opinion -- my motto is, "Chacun à son teuth"!

:nautilus: :octopus: :squid:

Love the poem, Tani.

Here's another classic I thought might appeal. OK, it's not about cephalopods but about the humble trilobite, that wonderful denizen of the ancient seas. Hope no-one minds, afterall, don't we all love marine invertebrates, wherever and whenever they were?

It was written by May Kendall in 1887 and is an absolute classic. Please enjoy!

'Lay of the Trilobite'

A mountain's giddy height I sought,
Because I could not find
Sufficient vague and mighty thought
To fill my mighty mind;
And as I wandered ill at ease,
There chanced upon my sight
A native of Silurian seas,
An ancient Trilobite.

So calm, so peacefully he lay,
I watched him even with tears:
I thought of Monads far away
In the forgotten years.
How wonderful it seemed and right,
The providential plan,
That he should be a Trilobite,
And I should be a Man!

And then, quite natural and free
Out of his rocky bed,
That Trilobite he spoke to me
And this is what he said:
'I don't know how the thing was done,
Although I cannot doubt it;
But Huxley - he if anyone
Can tell you all about it;

'How all your faiths are ghosts and dreams,
How in the silent sea
Your ancestors were Monotremes -
Whatever these may be;
How you evolved your shining lights
Of wisdom and perfection
From Jelly-Fish and Trilobites
By Natural Selection.

'You've Kant to make your brains go round,
Hegel you have to clear them,
You've Mr Browning to confound,
And Mr Punch to cheer them!
The native of an alien land
You call a man and brother,
And greet with hymn-book in one hand
And pistol in the other!

'You've Politics to make you fight
As if you were possessed:
You've cannon and you've dynamite
To give the nations rest:
The side that makes the loudest din
Is surest to be right,
And oh, a pretty fix you're in!'
Remarked the Trilobite.

'But gentle, stupid, free from woe
I lived among my nation,
I didn't care - I didn't know
That I was a Crustacean.*
I didn't grumble, didn't steal,
I never took to rhyme:
Salt water was my frugal meal,
And carbonate of lime.'

Reluctantly I turned away,
No other word he said;
An ancient Trilobite, he lay
Within his rocky bed.
I did not answer him, for that
Would have annoyed my pride:
I merely bowed, and raised my hat,
But in my heart I cried: -

'I wish our brains were not so good,
I wish our skulls were thicker,
I wish that Evolution could
Have stopped a little quicker;
For oh, it was a happy plight,
Of liberty and ease,
To be a simple Trilobite
In the Silurian seas!'

* He was not a crustacean. He has since discovered that he was an Arachnid, or something similar. But he says it does not matter. He says they told him wrong once, and they may again.

Good, isn't it!

Good, isn't it!

Absolutely brilliant :grad: and very funny :D I always did suspect those Trilobites of knowing a lot more than they were letting on!

Somewhat along the same lines -- though not as erudite -- is this favorite of mine, penned by that prolific polymath, Anonymous:

EVOLUTION: THE MONKEYS' VIEWPOINT
[just one of numerous titles attributed to this poem - TD]

Three monkeys sat in a coconut tree
Discussing things as they're said to be.

Said one to the others, "Now listen you two;
There's a certain rumor that can't be true;

"That man descends from our noble race.
The very idea! It's a dire disgrace!

"No monkey ever deserted his wife,
Starved her baby, and ruined her life.

"And you've never known a mother monk
To leave her babies with others to bunk.

"Or pass them on from one to another
'Til they hardly know who is their mother.

"And another thing you'll never see
A monk build a fence 'round a coconut tree

"And let the coconuts go to waste,
Forbidding all other monks a taste.

"Why if I put a fence around this tree
Starvation would force you to steal from me.

"Here's another thing a monk won't do -
Go out at night and get on a stew;

"Or use a gun or club or knife
To take some other monkey's life.

"Yes, man descended, the ornery cuss,
But brother, he didn't descend from us!"

Nowadays. this one shows up all over the internet, but the first time I saw it was long, long ago (in a galaxy far, far, away) when I was a teenager and a friend gave me a little bronze statue based on Rodin's Thinker, but featuring a chimpanzee -- sitting on a pile of books marked "Darwin" -- contemplating a human skull. The poem was taped on an attached card, and I thought it was a perfect combo.

(Uh-oh, better throw in something ceph-y before Tony tosses us out on our tentacles.... :lol: )

:nautilus: :octopus: :squid: :cthulhu: :nautilus: :squid: :cthulhu: :nautilus: :octopus: :squid: :cthulhu:

From the massive reference book, THE PENGUIN DICTIONARY OF SYMBOLS, 1996 pb, eds. Jean Chevalier & Alain Gheerbrant, transl. John Buchanan-Brown:

OCTOPUS: This shapeless, tentacled creature stands significantly for the monsters who regularly symbolize the spirits of the Underworld and even Hell itself.

The octopus was a decorative motif in northern Europe from the Greek world to that of the Celts, which might help to account for its Hyperborean origins. The octopus corresponds to the zodiacal sign of Cancer and is opposed to the dolphin. This identification is not unrelated to the creature's "infernal" aspect, the Summer solstice being the gate of the Underworld.

TD Notes:

-- Hyperborea, in Greek mythology, was a long-lost Utopian country in the far North.

-- The reference to the "infernal" character of the Octo and the "gate of the Underworld" might explain Tolkien's use of a fanciful mega-ceph at the entrance to the subterranean cave of Moria.

-- The identification of the Octo with the astrological sign of Cancer (the crab) undoubtedly refers to the multiple arms of both sea-creatures. From my rather rudimentary knowledge of astrology, I also seem to recall that the sign of Cancer is associated with the feminine, maternal principle. Is it possible that this association could have derived from an ancient observation of the fact that Octos' behavior represents the ultimate in maternal devotion (starving itself to death in order to care for its eggs)?

-- The sign of Cancer (approx. 22 June - 22 July) begins immediately after the Summer solstice.

-- I am not certain what "opposed to the dolphin" might mean. Just out of curiosity, I looked up Dolphin in this same book and noted a reference to the fact that the people of Crete believed that dolphins carried the deceased on their backs to the Isles of the Blessed. Perhaps the "opposition" refers to Octos' association with Hell/Inferno vs. dolphins' association with Heaven/Isles of the Blessed?

CUTTLE-FISH: The cuttle-fish or squid would seem to be a curious candidate for the first master of fire in a myth recorded by G. Frazer from the Nootka Indians of Vancouver. The deer stole it from him and gave it to mankind. The myth explains that at that time the cuttle-fish lived both on land and in the sea.

TD Notes:

-- This is reminiscent of the Greek myth of the Titan Prometheus, who stole fire from the Gods and gave it as a gift to humanity. In this context, the deer would parallel Prometheus and the Squid would parallel one of the Gods (Zeus, Hephaistos, or Helios).

-- Just as other Pacific Rim peoples regarded cephs as sacred creatures, IMHO the cited myth might indicate that the Native North Americans of Vancouver held the Squid in esteem as a God.

-- Could it be that the reference to "living on land and in the sea" was the result of identifying the primordial Squid with the small shallow-water Octos which moved on land from tidepool to tidepool?

All comments, additional references, etc. will be welcomed!

Yeah, I remember reading an old Polynesian or Hawaiian legend about a greedy shark who nearly gets himself killed by a lazy octopus reef guardian who puts the squeeze on shark (literally) for waking him up from his nap.

Konichiwa, John --

I finally found a reference to this myth, in my trusty copy of Knappert's PACIFIC MYTHOLOGY: AN ENCYCLOPEDIA OF MYTH AND LEGEND (see my first couple of posts on this thread), under the entry SHARK:

In Fijian mythology the Shark-God is the scourge of the fishermen, eating their fish as well as the men who fall overboard. His name is Dakuwanga. However, one day he meets his master, the giant octopus, guardian of the reef. The octopus wins the battle and the Shark-God has to promise never to attack the men of Kandavu.

TD Notes:

-- According to my netsearch, Kandavu, a.k.a. Kadavu, is an island in Southern Fiji which is also known as "Little New Zealand":

http://www.svcherokee.com/pages/Kandavu.htm

-- Here is a more complete version of the legend which I found on the net (go to site and scroll down to "Dakuwaqa the Shark God"):

http://www.pacificislandtravel.com/fiji/about_destin/legends.html

-- If you haven't already seen it, check out this beautiful modern interpretation of the Octopus in the "guardian" role (in this case, his beloved "charge" is a mermaid), by artist David Delamare:

http://www.daviddelamare.com/guard.html

-- IMHO it is interesting to note the discrepancy between Pacific and European views of the Octo. While European (and Anglo-American) cultures tend to vilify Octopuses, Pacific cultures tend to admire or even deify the species.

"Sea" y'all later,
Tani

.... I think there's also brief mention of what the native American peoples who encountered them (coastal, I suppose :) ) thought/believed about them, at least those living on the northern west coast of North America.
Hm, a vague and unresearched post. Anyone else know more about this?

Hiya Kat --

I just re-read your post and realized there is a reference to this in THE PENGUIN DICTIONARY OF SYMBOLS. See my post of 11 March containing the entry under CUTTLE-FISH, with the reference to the Nootka Indians of Vancouver.

Pax,
Tani

...there is a reference to this in THE PENGUIN DICTIONARY OF SYMBOLS.


Them penguins are smart, huh. :idea:

The idea of octopus being related to the Zodiac sign Cancer got me thinking about whether there are any octo or squid constellation... alas, none that I know of (though I bet you could pick one out in any group of stars ;) )... reminds me of the scene in A Beautiful Mind where Russell Crowe tells Jennifer Connolly to pick out any aminal (I think?) and he'll find a contellation for it... and she says octopus!

:octopus:

Hey Steve-O' -- made ya look! :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:

The idea of octopus being related to the Zodiac sign Cancer got me thinking about whether there are any octo or squid constellation...

See! The constellation of 'Octopus' exists!

Dubious proof here:

LINK (http://www.adlerplanetarium.org/history/exhibits/constellations/ursanov/ursanov06.html)

See! The constellation of 'Octopus' exists!

Dubious proof here:

LINK (http://www.adlerplanetarium.org/history/exhibits/constellations/ursanov/ursanov06.html)

Awww, that is so cute! Looks just like my Beanie, Orbi (Official Ty name: Inky) What I find amusing is the downloadable pdf file of constellations to trace at home and send to the course instructor. Makes me wonder how many of the original tracings she receives are actually printable....

:jester:

Hey, just FYI, I discovered that this discussion thread is linked to from the following page:

http://www.bluecoast.org/kanaloa1.html

Go to the "Edit | Find" command from your browser and type in "tonmo" and you'll find the section that has content related to this discussion.

So if you meet me
Have some courtesy
Have some sympathy, and some taste
Use all your well-learned politesse...


Hey, WK, would that be from "Sympathy for the Devilfish"?
(Next line: ".... or I'll lay your sole to waste.")

:heee:

Hey, just FYI, I discovered that this discussion thread is linked to from the following page:

http://www.bluecoast.org/kanaloa1.html

Go to the "Edit | Find" command from your browser and type in "tonmo" and you'll find the section that has content related to this discussion.

Tony, great stuff! Perhaps we should reciprocate by listing their site as one of our official links. I was very impressed with the entire page, being quite interested in (but not well-informed about) Pacific Island culture and religion.

BTW, I collect Tarot and other guidance / divination packs, and two of them -- HAWAIIAN AUMAKUA CARDS (M. Lucy Wade Stern) and MANA CARDS: THE POWER OF HAWAIIAN WISDOM (C.K. Becker & D. Nardin) -- each contain a Kanaloa / Ceph card. I'll try to get the Big Calamari to take pix of the two cards and post them here with the interpretations -- I assume the copyright issue is OK as long as I give detailed proper credit in the photos' captions. (Tony, please confirm this for me.)

On my "To Do" shelf are a few books -- and one brief teaching tape -- about the Hawaiian language. It appears to be the only Polynesian language for which one can find significant learning materials in the US, I suppose because Hawaii is our 50th State. However, I did manage to find a small book of beginners' Maori lessons at one of the online language book catalogs (I've got the info on one of my other screen names, so if anyone's interested I can look it up for you).

I assume the situation is reversed in NZ, where the Polynesian population is primarily Maori, and Hawaiians, Tongans, Samoans, and Tahitians (if any) are in the minority. Fijians are unique because, if I'm not mistaken, they are racially Melanesian while their language is more closely related to Polynesian. (This is not unheard of in other parts of the world. F'rinstance, a Welsh geneticist recently discovered that although the Welsh language is definitely Celtic, the Welsh people are genetically related to the Basques -- a European minority living around the French-Spanish border, who may be the most ancient ethnic group on the continent, and closest descendants of the original Cro-Magnons.)

In any event, the Pacific Island peoples have a profound and often mystical respect for Cephs of all kinds, in marked contrast to the widespread European / American view of them as "creepy-crawlies" -- which this site has (hopefully) been instrumental in changing.

Aloha,
Tani

Hey, WK, would that be from "Sympathy for the Devilfish"?
(Next line: ".... or I'll lay your sole to waste.")

:heee:


it would be indeed.... that was my exact train of thought when i put it up.... :) ooops i mean :twisted:

Anybody want to hazard a guess as to what this water spirit is?

http://www.defonseka.com/images/makara.jpg

:wink:

Clem

(Anybody want to hazard a guess as to what this water spirit is?)

Ummm... Great Cow-Skulled Aqua-Rooster?
:cyclops:

(Anybody want to hazard a guess as to what this water spirit is?)

Ummm... Great Cow-Skulled Aqua-Rooster?
:cyclops:

AKA "Old MacDonald's Worst Nightmare.":wink:

The puny little legs were probably added by the illustrator to make this water spirit credibly amphibious; it's a trick used by the illustrators of old when they were converting cephalopods into Many Headed Hydras.

http://www.xs4all.nl/~adcs/NatBl/fabel/afb/hydra.GIF

Above is Conrad Gesner's rendering of a Hydra, circa 1551-58, from his Historia animalium. Note the afterthought feet. Often interpreted as a fanciful squid, Gesner's engraving might in fact be of a tentacular club from a squid: each "head" could be a sucker carried on a stalk, the "crowns" serrated sucker rings.

A hint about our mystery water spirit: it comes from the Indian sub-continent.

:?:

Clem

Here's another image of our mystery water spirit: he's the red beastie engulfing the base of the arch.

http://www.keithdowman.net/art/lojampa/full/makhara_f.JPG

:?:

The figure in question is known as a makara. In Hindu mythology, it is a water-spirit associated with the deities Ganga (Goddess of Heavenly Waters), Varuna (God of Winds) and Kama (God of Love), depicted in illustrations as an aquatic steed for these deities. Makara sometimes appear as earrings on images of Vishnu; paired makara are said to symbolize the two, complementary forms of knowledge: logical and intuitive.

The word makara likely derives from the words makar or magar, sometimes used to describe crocodiles but also as a general term for strange sea-creatures. In the Hindu sacred text The Bhagavad Gita, it is said that "the makara among the fish is like the Ganges among the rivers; like Rama among the warriors."
*
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/taman.sari/pics/picutilities/makara_sumb.jpg

The makara has been likened most often to a "water-elephant," and most depictions show an animal with a broad tail, scaly or rugose skin and a head covered with horns; one feature common to all illustrations is the presence of a long trunk. If color is used in the illustration or applied to the sculpture, it is usually red overall.

If the makara image resembles an elephant or a manatee-like mammal, it also resembles a cephalopod. The broad tail and horn-festooned head are suggestive of fused tail fins and an arm corona, and the "trunk" could be interpreted as either a tentacle or the raised first arm pair of a squid or cuttlefish. The linkage of a cephalopod's arm to an elephant's trunk turns out to have an echo in Eastern Europe, where the Czech and Slovak term for octopus is chobot nece, "trunk animal." On Indian makara, the trunk sometimes has papillae or pads distributed down its length.

http://www.christies.com/images/departments/sea/sea_ep12.jpg

The scales and bumps shown on some makara are not disqualifiers for the notion of cephalopod lineage; the tubercles, cartilaginous ridges and photophores found on some squid and cuttles could have been simplified as scales for the sake of visual comprehensibility. Thysanoteuthis, Taningia and Histioteuthis are among the teuthids found in the Bay of Bengal, along with numerous sepiids, octopus and nautiloids.

Hi there Clem --

Wow! This is absolutely amazing stuff, and makes me hope that you will continue to pursue research along these lines for this thread, relating to as many cultures as possible. I have some general familiarity with Hinduism, but had never heard of this creature. It makes sense that Cephs combine both sacred and sensual connotations in Hindu symbolism (as they do in both Japanese/Shinto and Polynesian symbolism) -- since the two qualities are aspects of the same principle in these cultures.

Some of my fellow Noo Yawkers might be surprised to know that the noun "mugger" is derived from the (Hindi? Sanskrit?) word magar, but since crocodiles are ambush hunters, the connection isn't that hard to trace. Even more interesting, I recall that in one of Arthur C. Clarke's works (either the book THE DEEP RANGE or his short story about the attempted capture of an Archi -- I forget the name) he refers to the featured GS as "the old mugger".

Unlike our use of the term "mugger", the connotations of the term in Hindu symbolism are obviously positive, considering the association with the sacred river Ganges, the Gods Varuna and Kama, the hero Rama (like Krishna, an avatar of the Preserver Deity Vishnu), and -- by the nature of the term "water-elephant" -- Ganesha, the beloved elephant-headed God of Happiness. Jai Makara!

I was also delighted to hear that some of my fellow Taningiae currently patrol the Bay of Bengal. Anywhere in the deep some illumination is needed.... we'll be there!
:idea: :squid: :idea:

Keep those myths, legends, symbols, photos, and discussions coming....

Taninigia

Taningia,

Glad you enjoyed the makara stuff. You can also find a list of cephalopods found in the Bay of Bengal at Cephbase; just select "Bay of Bengal" from the biogeography database of large marine ecosystems. (http://www.cephbase.utmb.edu/biogeo/biogeo.cfm)

One of Vishnu's incarnations looks a little bit like a squid:

http://www.goloka.com/graphics/gallery/avatars/01incarnations/025-matsya.jpg

Multi-armed deity with a twin-finned tail...hmm.

:?:

Clem

Ah good I was hoping there was a thread on this kind of thing (great stuff too).

In the latest Fortean Times there is a report on various ancestral spirits - here is the extract I thought worth throwing in (from FT181:44)

Even today, he tells me at one vahi-mana (place of supernatural power), there is a female spirit that regularly materialises.... with a pet octopus perched upon her shoulder. Sounding like a cross between a Disney character and Casper the Friendly Ghost, she's friendly, helpful and "appears to people in the state between awake and asleep" to aid in healing.

Thats all there is but I thought it worth passing on.

Now a quick question. It has come up before (and I believe is being discussed in the members area?) but I have been looking into the origins of tentacle hentai and the modern incarnation seems to have been acceptable because of the various appearances during the Edo Period. Now this seems to be influenced by resurrgence in Shinto which like other animistic belief systems blurs the boundary between humans and nature. However, trying to find out any preceeding precidents in Japanese mythology have proved difficult and I struggled to find anything on the ocotopus or squid in Japanese mythology (in any context) - I assume there must be some but I couldn't find anything. Anyone know of any (not necessarily in connection to my intial query)?

I also only have the Ancient Mythology volume of Campbell's masks of God and I wonder if the Oriental Mythology volume has anything on this:

http://www.phil-books.com/The_Masks_of_God_Oriental_Mythology_0140 194428.html

I'll see if I can't dig it out.

Emps

However, trying to find out any preceeding precidents in Japanese mythology have proved difficult and I struggled to find anything on the ocotopus or squid in Japanese mythology (in any context) - I assume there must be some but I couldn't find anything. Anyone know of any (not necessarily in connection to my intial query)?

Hello Emps,

If I utilize my local library network, I can get a book with some relevant material. It'll take a week or so to get my hands on it. It's an older sea-monster themed title that I flipped through last summer.

:sink:

Clem

If I utilize my local library network, I can get a book with some relevant material. It'll take a week or so to get my hands on it. It's an older sea-monster themed title that I flipped through last summer.

:sink:

Thats great - I'm in no hurry it was something I was menaing to ask but the octopus pet thing made me remember to ask.

What book is it?

Emps

What book is it?
Emps,

I don't recall the title, it was a battered old thing ("old," meaning of sixties provenance) that must have gone into the library from someone's summer cottage. The chapter about cephs in mythology was quite good, with due attention given to non-Western cultures.

Stay tuned.

Clem

I just got the book Phenomena (1977) from eBay and soemthing that caught my eye was on page 119 - it was a small reproduction of a Japanese illustration of the Umi-Bozu which was descirbed there as a giant humanoid squid but Googling it it came up as more of a ghost type figure of a weird amalgam of elements.

e.g.:

The Japanese UMI BOZU is a huge sea ghost who haunts Japanese sailors. It is bald and has enormous, terrifying eyes.

http://library.thinkquest.org/16665/ghosts.htm

The bakemono depicted include hitotsu-me kozo (one-eyed priest with long, lolling tongue); an oni waving a fan while seated in a hibachi that has come to life; umi bozu, the octopus-headed priest carrying a huge Buddhist fan; and an unruly frog atop minogame (long-tailed tortoise).

http://www.orientationsgallery.com/Other/brushpot.htm

It is depicted as more of a serpent here:

http://www.enctype.de/Daemonen/1inhalumi.htm

but that is not a Japanese ilustartion so may not actually be of it.

It also appaers to have been on of the "Monsters in my pocket" series of toys:

http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Haven/2856/mimp/main.htm

http://www.toyarchive.com/MIMP/MIMP117-120.html

ahhhhhhhhh that is wht turns up in the Google image search (in the midle at the bottom):

http://www.virtualtoychest.com/mimp/mimpser4.html

Some discussion:

http://pub141.ezboard.com/fxprojectforumfrm11.showMessage?topicID= 42.topic

http://pub141.ezboard.com/fxprojectforumfrm17.showMessage?topicID= 1.topic

So does anyone know any more or have access to the illustration? The reference is:

Painting by Kuniyoshi from H. Joly Legend in Japanese Art, 1908.

I might try and interlibrary loan that one I'm in the library tomorrow.

Emps

Just trying another tack:

Utagawa Kuniyoshi (1797-1861) is another Ukiyo-e artist - some fantastic work:

http://www.bahnhof.se/~secutor/ukiyo-e/artkun06.html

http://www.artcyclopedia.com/artists/kuniyoshi_utagawa.html

http://optometry.berkeley.edu/~fiorillo/texts/ukiyoetexts/ukiyoe_pages/kuniyoshi3.html

http://wwar.com/masters/k/kuniyoshi-utagawa.html

Emps

Still nosing around - not found anything relevant to the Japanese octopus myths was looking for but I did find:

The Samoans believed that the forming of the ocean was the breaking of the ink sac of the primeval octopus. Another legend is that was a bit of salt water stored in small earthenware jar, but when it was lifted the water flowed out and caused a flood.

http://www.lit.org/view/6955

KANALOA ("Pinched Penny," middle right panel of page 11) is a Hawaiian god who in some myths is lord of fishermen and the sea, and in other myths, a magic-teaching octopus-formed god of the underworld. Still other myths hold him to be one of the creators of the world. The breakdown of his name, KA-NA-LOA, means "the great peace."

http://www.jeremyrizza.com/twofist.guide.html

Emps

The figure in question is known as a makara. In Hindu mythology, it is a water-spirit associated with the deities Ganga (Goddess of Heavenly Waters), Varuna (God of Winds) and Kama (God of Love), depicted in illustrations as an aquatic steed for these deities. Makara sometimes appear as earrings on images of Vishnu; paired makara are said to symbolize the two, complementary forms of knowledge: logical and intuitive.

The word makara likely derives from the words makar or magar, sometimes used to describe crocodiles but also as a general term for strange sea-creatures. In the Hindu sacred text The Bhagavad Gita, it is said that "the makara among the fish is like the Ganges among the rivers; like Rama among the warriors."
*
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/taman.sari/pics/picutilities/makara_sumb.jpg

The makara has been likened most often to a "water-elephant," and most depictions show an animal with a broad tail, scaly or rugose skin and a head covered with horns; one feature common to all illustrations is the presence of a long trunk. If color is used in the illustration or applied to the sculpture, it is usually red overall.

If the makara image resembles an elephant or a manatee-like mammal, it also resembles a cephalopod. The broad tail and horn-festooned head are suggestive of fused tail fins and an arm corona, and the "trunk" could be interpreted as either a tentacle or the raised first arm pair of a squid or cuttlefish. The linkage of a cephalopod's arm to an elephant's trunk turns out to have an echo in Eastern Europe, where the Czech and Slovak term for octopus is chobot nece, "trunk animal." On Indian makara, the trunk sometimes has papillae or pads distributed down its length.

http://www.christies.com/images/departments/sea/sea_ep12.jpg

The scales and bumps shown on some makara are not disqualifiers for the notion of cephalopod lineage; the tubercles, cartilaginous ridges and photophores found on some squid and cuttles could have been simplified as scales for the sake of visual comprehensibility. Thysanoteuthis, Taningia and Histioteuthis are among the teuthids found in the Bay of Bengal, along with numerous sepiids, octopus and nautiloids.

Fascinating insights, indeed. Thanks a lot, Clem.

My passion has been Sarasvati civilization and Sarasvati hieroglyphs (so-called Indus script). These glyphs contain early representations of makara, alligators and fish, also alligator ligatured to fish.

An album of 72 pictures is at http://spaces.msn.com/members/sarasvati97 The album is titled Sarasvati metaphors of wealth. A blog entry titled: Makara, Kubera at Angkor Wat-- also includes 3 additional pictures from Angkor Wat (George Groslier's plates).

A monograph is at http://makarajhasa.blogspot.com/

In Santali, mangar means 'alligator'. In Sanskrit, jhasa means 'fish'. In Gypsy, kaulo mengro means 'blacksmith'. In Prakrit, jasa means 'prosperity'. Thus, alligator + fish connote prosperity, fame. The ligature of elephant's legs and trunk point to elephant as ibha (Skt.); read rebus as ib 'iron'.

Makara is thus a metaphor of wealth from a smithy. It becomes the vaahana of Kubera, who has navanidhi, nine treasures, eight of them related to metals and the ninth related to s'ankha, turbinella pyrum (conch shell) which becomes a monetary unit. The s'ankha industry continues even today after 8500 years' existence in Gulf of Mannar.

The code of Sarasvati hieroglyphs has been cracked and many monographs are at the cited URL with many albums of pictures. See also http://navanidhi.blogspot.com/

Thank you.

Dr. S. Kalyanaraman

Hello Dr. Kalyanaraman,

:welcome:

Thanks much for posting the links to your scholarly work. I'm greatly impressed by the richness of it all; frankly, it made my head hurt after a bit, so I'll have to return to it once I've had a bit more coffee. Your association of nautiloid and ammonoid forms with glyphs and art is intriguing, and the rest will surely give me much to think about.

I've been curious for some time now about the term for octopus used by Czech, Slovak and Bosnian speakers: chobot nece, which translates as "trunk animal." The trunk may refer to a tree (a common derivation in European languages, with the branches of the tree being the arms of a cephalopod), but I've also wondered if the term might refer to the trunk of an elephant. With your knowledge of history and symbolism, I wonder if you might be able to shed some light on this? Was there some form of cultural exchange, perhaps via the ivory trade, between Eastern Europe and the subcontinent that might have led the Europeans to "connect the dots" of elephant and octopus?

Thanks again, and welcome to TONMO.

Cheers,
Clem

What about victor hugo's Devil fish from Toilers of the Sea Second Part Book IV?

"IT is difficult for those who have not seen it to believe in the existence of the devil-fish.

Compared to this creature, the ancient hydras are insignificant. At times we are tempted to imagine that the vague forms which float in our dreams may encounter in the realm of the Possible attractive forces, having power to fix their lineaments, and shape living beings, out of these creatures of our slumbers. The Unknown has power over these strange visions, and out of them composes monsters. Orpheus, Homer, and Hesiod imagined only the Chimera: Providence has created this terrible creature of the sea."

Later on in his discription he compares it to several different animals and then says that they are not at all alike. But he also does the same thing to the hipogriph saying it has no beak, and that unlike the viper it has no venom. Which is of course totally untrue. So if anything u could say that his description of the devilfish was well, kinder than deserved. And then he says... "What, then, is the devil-fish? It is the sea vampire."

And then he goes and decribes it just like any other man eating octopus, but he also described it as the embodiement of disease. And so on... :roll:

"This frightful apparition, which is always possible among the rocks in the open sea, is a grayish form which undulates in the water. It is of the thickness of a man's arm, and in length nearly five feet. Its outline is ragged. Its form resembles an umbrella closed, and without handle. This irregular mass advances slowly towards you. Suddenly it opens, and eight radii issue abruptly from around a face with two eyes. These radii are alive; their undulation is like lambent flames; they resemble, when opened, the spokes of a wheel, of four or five feet in diameter. A terrible expansion! It springs upon its prey."

PS: What it with the Japanese' um, pornographic obsession with octopus?

the tentacle monster hentai thing bugs me too

the tentacle monster hentai thing bugs me too

Haha yeah, plus they found actual artifacts dating back to Japans fuedal Erra containg similar "scenes."

There is something fascinating about the giant squid that taps into our fear and curiosity.

-- from http://www.giantsquidcenter.com/

Oy gevalt.... I was just perusing this early post of mine, and discovered that since it first appeared, someone hijacked the above link and turned it into a truly repulsive porn site. *sigh* By Neptune's beard, there's something fishy going on here.... "O tempura, O morays!"

That being said:

Am I the only one around here who thinks it's high time to revive the MYTH, LEGEND, AND SYMBOLISM thread? I'm sure there must be some newly-hatched larvae around here who are curious about the subject. Any takers?

Tani Banani

Am I the only one around here who thinks it's high time to revive the MYTH, LEGEND, AND SYMBOLISM thread? I'm sure there must be some newly-hatched larvae around here who are curious about the subject. Any takers?

Tani Banani


Personally, I have just started into it, but I really like it. I have a number of ceph images from paintings as well as modern logos that I would like to share but am not sure if it's appropriate. Not thatit's crude, it's just that it is not all myth stuff. Some are simply evocative uses in modern signs, symbols, and logos which I think are done well.

I'll add a couple here and if you like them, I have more.

This one below is a Japanese print with some nice ceph action.

Ok, it's not mythy, but it is symbolism.

This is a sign for the Chocolate Octopus which is simply a sweet shop (or is that shoppe?).

The use of the kiss as a mantle with the little cocoa laced tentacles that look like little candied swirls to me was brilliant.

Alright...

I have NO idea what it is that these guys do, but this is a pretty cool use of the Kraken and a little Norse mythology as well.

Here is a sign for the Mermaid Art Studios.

Of course they have a big ole octo hanging up there, and why? Cephs are so symbolic of the sea. When you sea the rolling tentacles, you must think of the fluid nature of the ocean.

Here is something for you.

I have been collecting these and wondering where to put them. This is a picture captured from the computer game Age of Mythology. One of the things that you do is build up your forces and attack other peoples and their mythos.

The Norse gods are a subset of this game. You can build Viking longboats and of course as a special player, the kraken! In this pic, the gamer has a couple of kraken that he is using against enemy ships. They (upon command) move at ships, grab them, crush their hulls, and sink the enemy ship and all.

I do not know why this pic makes me feel happy.

This is one from the Massive Multiple Player Online Game: City of Heroes.

Eventually, you get to battle the kraken or sea devil. Do not think though, that you can run out, get this game and go do battle with the behemoth.

No, it takes a great amount of time, you have to be a high level, and you have to have a large squadron of very high level allies or you're toast.

Yeah, I find Age of Mythology great, as they include cephalopod into their gameplay. Until now, the kraken (and the man-o-war jellyfish, in Titans expansion pack) are my favorite myth unit and mine can be seen happily breaking ships into two :twisted:. However, I will have to purchase City of Heroes to go on that one.....

*ahem, back to the topic*

I found this http://www.uiowa.edu/borges/vakalo/zf/html/__bao_a_qu.html
while browsing throughout mythology websites. It includes the words tentacles and the phrase "its shape approaches perfection, and the bluish light it gives off is more brilliant". I find it suspiciously similar to a bioluminescent cephalopod.......:hmm:

The source cites that it is a part of Malay legends and mythology (this legend is recorded by C. C. Iturvuru in an appendix to his now classic treatise On Malay Witchcraft (I937). I'm an Indonesian, which means quite familiar to the related Malay folklores - but I have never heard anything like this in our bedtime stories and literatures.

Any thoughts ?

Ok, so I have no idea where to post this. It reminds me (in a way off way) of some Scott Olsen stuff, but I'll let you decide.

The octopus was a deity of the Peruvian Mochica culture and appears here as a gold crown used for religious ceremonies:

http://takillakta.org/rcpal/article/141/recuperan-tesoro-peruano

Beautiful. Thanks TT!

I always thought that type of symbol was the sun! It never crossed my mind it was an octopus. My Spanish is limited (understatment) but I could follow the gist of the accompanying article to understand that it is indeed an octopus :sun: and considered a national treasure. Thanks for the eyeopener

Sorry, I only just realized the article on nationalgeographic on the subject:

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/08/060818-peru-headdress.html

Check this one for a sculpture with a similar crown:

http://www.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0103/feature3/zoom1.html

Not to split hairs, but according to the article the headdress is a depiction of "a feline sea god with octopus-like tentacles." Can you imagine that combination? The Machiavellian of a cat with twice as many appendages to carry out its will! And unimpeded by water. *Shudder*
Great find!

Cheers!


Edit: Not really sure if I used 'Machiavellian' properly, but I like how it represents cats.

The Surprising Realities of Mythical Creatures (http://news.yahoo.com/s/livescience/20070524/sc_livescience/thesurprisingrealitiesofmythicalcreature s)

I wonder if they include the Taniwha?

Philadelphia Inquirer (http://news.google.com/news/url?sa=T&ct=us/2i-0&fd=R&url=http://www.philly.com/inquirer/magazine/20070528_Figures_of_fantasy.html&cid=1116719188&ei=H6haRsiqIZ7Q0AHZ5tnPDQ)
Figures of fantasy (http://news.google.com/news/url?sa=T&ct=us/2-0&fd=R&url=http://www.philly.com/inquirer/magazine/20070528_Figures_of_fantasy.html&cid=1116719188&ei=H6haRsiqIZ7Q0AHZ5tnPDQ)
Philadelphia Inquirer, PA - 2 hours ago
Although Kraken's exploits were almost certainly exaggerated, both it and the Scylla are now thought to have been giant squid. (Though the museum says it ...


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One of these days I really have to dig up the pictures of my daughter cavorting with a real live unicorn.

I'm sure someone has mentioned the Goddess Hitt who is a Polynesian Octopus mother creator. My brother probably said SOMETHING about it.

Hey Mom! Ya, dig up those pictures of me with the unicorn, I need copies. :) People still don't believe me.


Joy <-- daughter of the sorseress, sister of the Erich

Back again, I forgot to check in.

The octopus was a deity of the Peruvian Mochica culture and appears here as a gold crown used for religious ceremonies:

http://takillakta.org/rcpal/article/141/recuperan-tesoro-peruano

That's an amazing picture! Love this.

I'm sure someone has mentioned the Goddess Hitt who is a Polynesian Octopus mother creator. My brother probably said SOMETHING about it.



You know, other than that one source you provided me with, I've found tons of other South Pacific ceph-deities, but never have found a single mention of Hitt, who was evidently not from Polynesia but the Solomon Islands. Hummingbird, go to your source and make them cough-up more on this! It's such a great story, but I need more authentication! Oh, and "Hitt" doesn't sound like anything I've found from the Solomons or the rest of that part of the Pacific. Please correct me if I'm wrong. I want more! Erotic octopus goddesses rule.

6536

http://monsterbrains.blogspot.com/2008/04/toyohiro-1773-1828-utagawa-japan-shun.html

Monty, doomo arigatoo gozaimashita for posting that fantastic woodcut. Naturally, any ceph image is great and beautiful ceph images are greater, but beautiful Japanese ceph images are the greatest! Wish I could find a good print of that on eBay.... *sigh*

Hummingbird, I did a Google search for "goddess hitt" and "hitt goddess", both as specific phrases and as individual words appearing on the same page, and could not find any related references online other than your post. I agree with your bro' that the name Hitt doesn't sound like it comes from any Pacific Island language. I have a feeling that the name is differently spelled and/or has a different origin.... perhaps Mesopotamian, Egyptian, Phoenician, or the like?

Let's do some detective work and see if we can find the real erotic ceph goddess! Anyone want to try Googling some different spellings? Might be fun....

~ Tani ~