I'm 14 and new to the ceph addiction. I got a small octopus in a biocube for my birthday and the people at the store said it was a "pigmy", I was going to get a 75gal tank (which I haven't managed to get yet). She hasn't grown much during the time I had her so I knew that I wouldn't need a tank to soon. But during interaction she mistook a piece of food for my finger so I stuck the handle of a net in her tentacles and she grabbed that and was getting aggravated and I saw that she had the blue ring pattern. Needles to say, I'm not going to hand feed her anymore.

Even though I didn't know that she was a blue ring, I kept her water quality perfect for her and made sure I did %15 water changes in the water.

She is happy and well.

Oh yeah, I thought of pictures but then I couldn't find the cord to hook up the camera to the computer. I'll let you all see her some other time. :goodbye:

I'm 14 and new to the ceph addiction. I got a small octopus in a biocube for my birthday and the people at the store said it was a "pigmy", I was going to get a 75gal tank (which I haven't managed to get yet). She hasn't grown much during the time I had her so I knew that I wouldn't need a tank to soon. But during interaction she mistook a piece of food for my finger so I stuck the handle of a net in her tentacles and she grabbed that and was getting aggravated and I saw that she had the blue ring pattern. Needles to say, I'm not going to hand feed her anymore.

Even though I didn't know that she was a blue ring, I kept her water quality perfect for her and made sure I did %15 water changes in the water.

She is happy and well.

Oh yeah, I thought of pictures but then I couldn't find the cord to hook up the camera to the computer. I'll let you all see her some other time. :goodbye:

Yike! :alarm: I'm glad you're OK!

That raises all sorts of concerns: please, of course, be really, really careful.

Although we're not aware of any casualties from blue-rings kept as pets, the potential for fast and lethal poisoning is very real. I would never advise keeping one in a room where anyone sleeps, and make very sure to keep out any pets, siblings, naive visitors, and anyone else who might get into the tank. I believe Roy Caldwell has a policy that in his lab, no one is to be in the room with the blue-ring tanks alone, ever.

If you are bitten, don't waste any time getting emergency attention: the primary symptom of the venom (TTX, Tetrodotoxin) is rapid onset muscular paralysis, to the point where the victim can't breathe and can't seek help. It's treatable if there is someone who notices and can call for an ambulance so the victim is on a breathing machine for a few days.

I'm sure you're attached to this octopus, but I want to point out that Mote, a professional aquarium, decided to euthanize an blue-ring that was donated to them because they didn't want to accept the risk of having the animal. At the very least, I would encourage you to demand your money back from the store, and make it very clear that selling this animal to anyone without properly identifying it and explaining the risks is homicidally negligent.

it sounds like you're pretty clear on the ID, but since I'm suggesting making a fuss, I suppose I should also make sure that it's not just two eyespots, it's blue rings all over the octopus that were flashed, right?

:bluering:

http://www.tonmo.com/promo13.jpg

I also recommend Roy's article at http://www.thecephalopodpage.org/bluering1.php if you need to convince anyone of the risks involved, but it sounds like you're pretty much aware of what this means, just unsure what to do about it, right?

edit: if you're comfortable with it, if you let us know where you're located, we might be able to help you find a local facility that is equipped to handle blue-rings safely, like Roy's lab in Berkeley. I wouldn't recommend mailing the animal to Roy, though, since lest a postal worker be bitten inadvertently.

edit2: I just read on an earlier thread that she bit your finger on the nail a few weeks ago! That's pretty concerning!

If it is a blue ring, you need to hand it off to an experienced keeper or lab asap.

Venomous/Deadly octopus should only be kept by very well trained aquarists, after years of learning how to avoid being bitten.

Death at age fourteen would be a real tragedy.

I've decided to be ignorant and keep it. It just won't be hand fed as often. But thanks for your concern.

I've decided to be ignorant and keep it. It just won't be hand fed as often. But thanks for your concern.

:banghead:

I've decided to be ignorant and keep it. It just won't be hand fed as often. But thanks for your concern.


Ignorance doesn't fly too far with me. Good luck.

I've decided to be ignorant and keep it. It just won't be hand fed as often. But thanks for your concern.

Ignorance doesn't offer any protection from death. If this is your attitude, you really shouldn't keep this animal at all; the only sane way to keep a blue-ring is to be as careful as possible to mitigate all the risks of poisoning, and to have backup protection where everyone is safe even if the proactive protection fails.

start a journal so we can keep posted to check out your octo. and make sure you're still alive.

I withhold judgement on this until I see a picture of the animal. The only Hapalochlaena I have seen for sale in the US is H. lunulata and if you have one, you are going to see the blue rings most of the time, not just when feeding it. My guess is either that the "blue ring pattern" is a pair of ocelli - or ...

If this really is a blue-ring and it behaves aggressively towards a feeding stick, it should not be in a home aquarium.

Roy

My local LFS always has blue rings. I'm not sure who is buying them but they almost always have one in stock and they are pretty easily identified because the blue rings stand out very well!!

Hey, your 14 cool im 14 too. i dont have an octo but i would love to get one.

Good luck, be careful,

Chandler

Oh, goody.

By the bye, a blue ring typically only shows the markings under stress, so if an lfs has them and they are that visible, they must be really, really, really happy.

Please don't misunderstand me, I happen to really like H.L.'s as aquarium animals. It is just that it would be like someone on the herp boards stating that "they aren't sure if they bought a cobra or not, they have never kept a snake before" sort of thing.

Disaster is imminent.

hmm.....ok, so since this child seems to want to keep his/her pet, despite the advice so far, maybe he can help us out with some information:

About the blue rings: all over the body, or just in a couple of places (like this one?)

If its just two blue rings then you should be fine.

If you've managed to score a genuine blue-ring of the lethal kind, I think you should give it away to someone who can keep it safely (best option), or (as you seem to have decided already, despite being advised against it), if you're going to keep it at least make sure your parents/guardians/etc. know how dangerous this animal is, so if you are unlucky or foolish enough to have it bite you they can take action quickly (you might not be that lucky though....). If you don't have it already you need to get a very, very secure tank lid. And make sure every single person who will be in your house knows that you are keeping an extremely dangerous animal.

Don't hand-feed it at all, not just 'less often'.

Seriously, please find that camera cable so the people here can give you correct advice.

I think this is either a recipe for disaster or a troll....

Yeah, this is absolutely ridiculous. I am not against keeping blue rings, at all. But:

You should be over 18, so any one who gets bitten by it can sue you legally.

You should have venomous animal experience, normally gained from working at a lab or zoological facility.

You should know how to keep venomous animals in locked rooms, as Robyn stated.

You should be willing to listen to people who do know what they are talking about.

:grad:

Here endeth the lesson.

I would be interested in confirming the ID as a first step.

If indeed it is a blue ring, I would be interested in what your parents think about having it in the house.

http://communitiesonline.homestead.com/files/troll_2.jpg

I agree with Roy and Thales - lets make sure this really is a blue ring, being cautious until we have an ID, including no hand feeding and keeping your tank well sealed.

Please take some photos and upload them. Are there only two rings of the sort that are in Robyn's photo, or more?

What do the rings look like?

What's the color of your octopus at rest?

How large is it?

We'll know more when we see the photos.

Nancy

He is white at rest. He has a mantel at about 3/4 of an inch. The people at the store said that someone sold it to them in side a tank and that they said it was a "dwarf". I don't hand feed it, I toss the food in the tank and it just finds it.

I want to find my cord, nowhere to be found.

I forgot to tell you that it is in my bedroom but I have 15+ pounds of books on top of the tank.

I want to find my cord, nowhere to be found.

I forgot to tell you that it is in my bedroom but I have 15+ pounds of books on top of the tank.

People haven't had the best luck with just weight, since sometimes the octo can still squeeze through a crack without having to lift so much. Using duct tape as well is probably a good idea.

As Roy said, it sounds like it's possible, maybe even likely, that the octo isn't actually a blue-ring, but please treat it as one until you're 100% certain. I'm glad that you're no longer hand-feeding, at least, but I'm still concerned that keeping a lethal, escape-prone animal in your bedroom is really a recipe for disaster.

I remember how frustrating it is to be your age and get told by adults that you're not capable of handling responsibility, and reading between the lines, it sounds like you're sometimes frustrated, but keep in mind that Greg would say the same gruff thing to anyone, of any age, who isn't prepared to keep a dangerous animal, and we're all concerned for the safety of you and your family rather than just trying to be snotty. It's a rough situation when you are misled about the nature of an animal, particularly one you've become attached to...

Please do your best to find your camera cable so we can get the ID resolved ASAP.

edit: note to other blue ring experts: does anyone have good pictures of the various blue-ring species when they're not displaying their rings? It does seem like, while they don't show them all the time, they normally show them every few minutes when they're active, right? At least that's the impression I have from the videos...

Gruff? Snotty?

No offense, but I have seen friends that have lost fingers, hands, and arms due to envenomation.
I called Irwin an "idiot" when we worked on filming the southwestern rattlesnake episode, he reached into a burrow to pull out a rattler trying to get away. He said he did it all the time, and I should just calm down.
Well, he is dead now.

A deadly animal should not be sold to a minor, if something happens, the store is available for a massive lawsuit, as is the family of the 14 year old.

Get rid of it. Hand it off to the store with a stern warning, or to an experienced facility.

Waiting to ID it is like hoping that your hand grenade will actually not go off if you pull the pin. Mistake.

Sorry that I come off so harshly, but this is not some matter to be dwelled on or treated lightly.

I got her about a month and a half ago, several of her tentacles are doing some sort of a twist. Oh, and I think that I said that it is in a biocube. The cracks ARE taped. There is also a small combination lock on the tank to make sure citizens of Munchcan land don't put hands in it.

Corkscrewed arms eh? Sounds like we won't have to worry about it either way too much longer, to be frank.

I have to agree with Greg. Irwin is a great example. Even the most highly skilled and trained and experienced people aren't invincible and it only takes ONE mistake.

I didn't mean the snotty to be directed at you, more that I was concerned that I'm trying to balance things, since my sense is that chaostheory is sometimes resistant to listening out of feeling attacked.

And I thought you'd take gruff as a complement, I apologize if that flopped. I like gruff people, for the most part, except in combination with some other traits you don't have, like gross ignorance or blinding hubris.

My main concern is that chaostheory seems to bounce between being concerned and being rebellious about being pressured, so I want to mitigate the rebellion so s/he can avoid death... but I really don't want to be the "good cop" or anything, so I'm just trying to keep clear that I don't want to be an adversary or unsympathetic, but I also agree that this ought to be taken seriously.

I don't mean to undercut your position at all: frankly, I'd feel better if chaostheory got rid of the octo, but I'm not sure how to do that safely anyway. I defer to you and Roy and all sorts of people in terms of blue ring knowledge completely, but I think if chaostheory, like most 14 year olds, is likely to get stubbornly contrarian in the face of dramatic pronouncements, justified or not. Maybe that's me being too pop-psychology oriented, I don't really care if I'm right or wrong, I care that no one gets killed by this octopus.

I'm not even sure it's wise to interact with it enough to get it back to the store: in the most extreme prudent view, euthanasia by adding something toxic to the tank, IDing the corpse, and demanding the store refund the money if it's a blue ring seems like the absolute safest thing to do, but trying to get it out of the tank or transport the whole tank to the store both seem riskier than leaving it alone for a few days, because any interaction is more risky than keeping a distance. I could be wrong on that, so if Greg or anyone else has suggestions on how to get it to the store safely, I'm all for it, please speak up.

No one should sleep in the bedroom with a live blue-ring, or even be alone in the room with it, though. And if it's not sent away or euthanized immediately and safely, how hard can it be to beg/borrow/buy/steal a replacement camera cable? Roy is one of the world experts on blue ringed octos, and we have a number of members, including Greg, who have interacted with them a lot, and can likely ID it immediately from decent pictures. If it's just a USB cable, go to radio shack, best buy, or even your local drugstore and you can buy the stupid thing for less than $10, and while I agree with Greg that that is neither necessary nor sufficient to avert disaster, if it's enough to get past the roadblock of inaction, it's cheap, quick, and easy, and getting rid of that as an excuse for not dealing with the situation sounds productive to me.

:twocents: :banghead: :yinyang:

Gruff? Snotty?

No offense, but I have seen friends that have lost fingers, hands, and arms due to envenomation.
I called Irwin an "idiot" when we worked on filming the southwestern rattlesnake episode, he reached into a burrow to pull out a rattler trying to get away. He said he did it all the time, and I should just calm down.
Well, he is dead now.

A deadly animal should not be sold to a minor, if something happens, the store is available for a massive lawsuit, as is the family of the 14 year old.

Get rid of it. Hand it off to the store with a stern warning, or to an experienced facility.

Waiting to ID it is like hoping that your hand grenade will actually not go off if you pull the pin. Mistake.

Sorry that I come off so harshly, but this is not some matter to be dwelled on or treated lightly.

Twisted arms are usually a bad sign. Don't handle it if it dies or looks dead either - take it out of your tank with a net, and dispose of the carcass in a sealed container.

I'm with Greg on this one - there is nothing 'responsible' about keeping this animal even if you think the tank is secure. If the pet-store sold it to you as you describe they are irresponsible and shouldn't be in business. Take it back and get a refund if it lives that long.

I don't mean to be rude or harsh to you either, it sounds like you could do a great job with a non-dangerous octopus, but frankly your attitude toward this animal seems reckless, overconfident and flippant.

I got her about a month and a half ago, several of her tentacles are doing some sort of a twist. Oh, and I think that I said that it is in a biocube. The cracks ARE taped. There is also a small combination lock on the tank to make sure citizens of Munchcan land don't put hands in it.

Do you have younger brothers and sisters?

In Irwin's defense it was the fact that he took the barb out of heart leaving him with an aortic dissectionm, not venom from the ray. Either way i think you should return the octo.

In Irwin's defense it was the fact that he took the barb out of heart leaving him with an aortic dissectionm, not venom from the ray. Either way i think you should return the octo.


I did not mean to imply that venom killed Steve. It was his cavalier attitude towards wild animals that killed him, no sense of respect for potentially lethal animals that could care less about television, tanks, or anything else of the human environment.

You just can't expect animals to act according to the way we want them to.

Anyone who starts to think they have "a way" with animals is opting for a tv show, and also a fool.

They deserve our respect and admiration.

Ah. I agree. Just trying to defend a dead guy, know what i mean? I mean we all knew he had something of the sort comming.

Don't worry about it. People from the store traveled 40 minutes to come and take it back, they gave me my money back and I'm already making plans to get another octopus. Considering that I managed to keep a Blue ring alive and happy in a biocube, I think I'll be able to keep a easier species in a 75-90 gallon tank, any recommendations on species. I would like a hardy species.

Don't worry about it. People from the store traveled 40 minutes to come and take it back, they gave me my money back and I'm already making plans to get another octopus. Considering that I managed to keep a Blue ring alive and happy in a biocube, I think I'll be able to keep a easier species in a 75-90 gallon tank, any recommendations on species. I would like a hardy species.

Most of them are reasonably hardy once established in a proper tank. Just try to get a small/young one with most if not all arms intact. If you read the other journals there are different members keeping different kinds and anyone will be happy to tell you where they got theirs. It will help give you an idea of what kind you would prefer.

Right now it seems that O. hummellinki, O. briareus, and A. aculeatus are regularly available online. Any of those would be fine in a 75-90 gallon tank.

Don't worry about it. People from the store traveled 40 minutes to come and take it back, they gave me my money back and I'm already making plans to get another octopus. Considering that I managed to keep a Blue ring alive and happy in a biocube, I think I'll be able to keep a easier species in a 75-90 gallon tank, any recommendations on species. I would like a hardy species.

Thanks for the update, and I'm glad this got resolved without any major problems for anyone. And yes, you should be proud of your octo-keeping success even with this craziness. AM pretty much covered everything I would say, good luck with the new tank!

Oh, yeah, and if you ever do find your camera cable, I'd be interested in seeing the bluering pics...

Hooray! This is great news - I'm very glad they gave you a refund and took responsibility for removing it from your home. It sounds like you will do nicely with a better species since you've evidently kept this alive quite well. In a 75-90 gallon you could keep a small-to-medium species pretty happy - a briareus or a bimac perhaps.

Did they take the whole biocube away with them?

If the blue ring is indeed back in the hands of the store, (who really should be reported) I would recommend a bimac as the best "pet" octopus. Yes, they may bite, but they don't cause death for humans, and many can be trained to eat out of your hand easily, without fear of ending up dead.

One minor point on blue-ring biology. Chaostheory mentioned that "several of her tentacles are doing some sort of a twist." In H. lunulata there is a behavior that we call "arm tip twirling" that is fairly common. We are currently engaged in a study to determine what initiates it and how it functions. Initially we thought it was sensory, but recent discoveries suggest that it could be aposomatic. If this was the behavior Chaostheory saw, it does not necessarily mean that the animal was stressed or in decline.

Roy

One minor point on blue-ring biology. Chaostheory mentioned that "several of her tentacles are doing some sort of a twist." In H. lunulata there is a behavior that we call "arm tip twirling" that is fairly common. We are currently engaged in a study to determine what initiates it and how it functions. Initially we thought it was sensory, but recent discoveries suggest that it could be aposomatic. If this was the behavior Chaostheory saw, it does not necessarily mean that the animal was stressed or in decline.

Roy

Roy, does the behavior you are studying look anything like this?

http://s116.photobucket.com/albums/o6/dwhatley/Octopus/?action=view&current=FullMonty.flv

I only saw my male Mercs doing this and the only one that did it nightly was the friendliest of the 4 (Sisturus). I got the impression it was a feeding behavior as there was nothing to warn off ...

Somewhat. We have also seen it in a few other dwarf species. The most consistent trigger I have found in blue-rings is when one male mounts and inserts into a second. The recipient will often "twirl" for several minutes.

Roy

When you observe two males mating, are both sexually mature?

The Merc in the video showed the twirling behavior nightly for at least a month. It was so common that his name was chosen for the "rattle snake" behavior. He was in a tank with another male that had not yet sexually matured and I observed (and also poorly photographed) the sexually mature male attempt a mating (ie, the dominant male is the one in the video). After the slower to mature male showed signs of enlarged suckers, I occassionally saw the twirling behavior with him but not as often or for the duration as with the more active male (and only occassionaly with the other two sibbling males that were housed in a larger tank with a single female). I only had one female in the group and she stayed in her den most of her adult life and I could not observe to say if she also showed this behavior.

We have seen insertions by males into other sexually mature males in several species including H. lunulata, O. wolfi and O. mercatoris. It seems more likely to occur in species that mount, but it also happens in octopus that don't.

Roy

Roy,
Most interesting. I was so pleased that I had managed to pair a male and female (particularly this male) and so disappointed later to discover that Medusa was also male. In the tank with two males and one female, I did not observe any interaction between the odd male and either the female or the other male but I did see two matings with the same female and the same male (the second mating was AFTER the eggs hatched). From your observations, is it clear that the males know (bad choice of words) the other octopus is not female? Was there a female in the tank? Have you seen other sperm release behavior when there was only one sexually mature octopus in a tank that had never had the opportunity to mate? I am wondering if releasing sperm is a physical necessity at some point in the male's life.

Urrrr.... D...? Is the great pyramid great and pyramidal? Is the Great Wall of China great and non-pyramidal? Does Münster smell? Is Pi a numerically undescribable constant? Is 1961 Chateau d'Yquem to die for (especially in combination with a fresh pear tarte tatin)? Do cats meow? Take some time and the answer will surely come to you :wink:

Wow. Lotta interesting talk in this thread. I think ill throw my 2 cents into several of these things.

1. Chaostheory, dude if I were you, i'd be freakin pissed at that fish store, as is you may be in the position for a lawsuit. Blue rings are cool, but from what i've heard they arent very good to keep (venom aside), just because of their short lifespan of somethin like 6 months. Don't quote me on that i'm goin off of memory. But yea, they can be expensive for being so short lived. All the species that these guys are recommending are real good. Since you're in Florida, it should be pretty easy to get a Briareus. I dunno about the others mentioned, unlike these guys I am not an octo-encyclopedia.

2. Irwin had that comin. He lived through pissin off so many wild animals, it was a given that one of them would eventually kill him. I'm just suprised it wasn't one of those massive crocodiles he worked with. He really knew how to piss them off.

-Keith

Steve was an extremely affable man, the sort who would give you the shirt off of his back if you needed it, and helped a whole generation of kids get into learning about wildlife.

That being said, he was slightly off in the mind, by thinking that he could "out think" an animal. Millions of years of development have made some of nature's predators into almost eerily perfect killing machines. The reason people aren't killed more often is that you really have to force them into a situation where they will actually harm a human.

Blue ring octopus are wonderful reef dwelling species that have perfectly adapted to their niche. They should be left there.

Let's keep it civilized, shall we? There's no need for offensive e-mails that were sent in private to go public and there is likewise certainly no need for half baked insults towards the poster in case, who is only trying to do the right thing. Let's leave it at that.

You're right ob. I think that it is time for this thread to end. How do I end it?

Let's keep it civilized, shall we? There's no need for offensive e-mails that were sent in private to go public and there is likewise certainly no need for half baked insults towards the poster in case. Let's leave it at that.

I just "soft deleted" the posts you referred to. I agree with ob on this: all 3 posts didn't add much to this thread. I'm relieved that the blue-ring is back at the store.

I think since it's resolved, back-and-forth animosity is not likely to be helpful, and while I think there were valid points (from both of you) mixed in with those points, the tone was not civil or productive... it sounds like you played off each other's frustrations.

I'd like everyone to remember that chaostheory and his family were misled by the store that sold the octopus, and is trying to be responsible, and I don't think it's fair to judge that he's incapable of keeping an octopus until he's proven that... but I'd also like chaostheory to keep in mind that all the feedback I've seen has been intended to protect and help you, and you tend to take that as insulting and abusive, and get abusive back... Please try to take a step back and ask "even if the delivery rubs me the wrong way, what is the message, and what can I learn or appreciate from it?" instead of immediately reacting with anger and a counterattack.

thanks

peace out, man :yinyang:

You're right ob. I think that it is time for this thread to end. How do I end it?

As a moderator, I could lock the thread, but I don't want to stop D and Roy from talking about the arm-twisting behavior.

In my experience, the best way to end a flamewar is to resist the urge to get in the last word, unless the last word is a genuine apology.

I would argue hard about locking this thread.

Blue rings are a subject that come up often, and I think the bulk of the information is valid, even the negative.

Chaostheory did the right thing, though in the beginning was somewhat unwilling to listen.

Change is hard for all of us, and to be willing to listen to advice from those who have "been there done that" is just a vote in confidence that CS is indeed looking out for the benefit of the animal, and his houseguests/family.

Personally, this is the type of individual that I would LIKE to see keeping cephalopods, obviously there is some serious concern on CS's part. I like, and respect that.

All that being said, the use of foul language is never appropriate over the boards. I would, and will, hard delete any I see here on Tonmo, as would the rest of the staff.

Unless we are making fun of Neil D. :)

I'm locking the thread.

Nancy