I am filing the lawsuit against Christopher Ilitch on Friday June 13th.
I am basing my lawsuit against Mr. Christopher Ilitch on the Michigan Bodies of Dead Animals Act 239 of 1982.
If the octopus was not in refrigeration before being taken to the arena, and it can be verified, then
is against the law.
I am mailing the papers for the lawsuit to the U.S. District Court on Thursday by Express Mail.
I am also sending a letter to the judge explaining why I have standing in the court.
I am asking the court to issue an order to Christopher Ilitch, President of Ilitch Holdings to publicly announce
that no real octopus can be brought into the arena ever again
I am sure that a toy stuffed octopus would bring good luck to the team just as much as a real one.
Just because this tradition is 56 years old, doesn't mean it is a good one, or a moral one.
The law is from the Michigan Department of Agriculture.
IF the animal has not been in refrigeration for the previous 24 hours before tossing it, the person is breaking the law.
The reason I got involved in this matter, is because I first learned about this tradition two weeks ago.
I have never followed any sports in my life, and I am 60 years old now.
When I saw the dead animal being twirled in the air, it turned my stomach.
The octopus is an intelligent animal, living its life in the ocean.
There are only 3 reasons it is caught; food, scientific research and for a pet.
No animal should be taken from its home and killed, and then used for our amusement.
That is horrible.
my e-mail is peewee_91762@yahoo.com
Everyone has the responsibility of protecting all animal life on the planet.
They are not supposed to be killed, and then used for our amusement.
All animals have the right to live their lives, just like we humans do.
:smile:

Interesting. Thanks for explaining the legalities you discovered. Good luck, and I hope this helps to give some publicity to octos as intelligent animals worth of respect and interest.

Actually, the fake "rubber" octo alternative would be a financial boon to the organization... they could just pick them all up after the game, wash them, and resell them right there at the arena. In-house sales with no disposal fees.

"I am asking the court to issue an order to Christopher Ilitch, President of Ilitch Holdings to publicly announce
that no real octopus can be brought into the arena ever again"
You will already be thrown out of the arena if they find out you have an octopus with you.
How will you prove the octo wasn't refrigerated for 24 hrs? After a 3 hr game(stuffed in your shirt/pants)it will be hard to tell. I think your wasting your time.;)

The U.S. District Court will receive my papers and forms June 13th, 2008. The lawsuit has been filed.
If there are any questions you can contact me at:
peewee_91762@yahoo.com

[edited: basic message 'no one cares'] You will loose and waste thousands of tax payers dollars. I wish I could tell you how I really feel but I would be banned from the forum. If you take time to read the law invertebrates are not considered. Either are insects. You can kill and tortue them becuase they are considered food or nuisance. Did you know that ALL stadiums spray insecticides to kill bugs and lay down poison to control rodents. How many billions of innocent lifeforms must die so we can pleasure ourselves with sporting events. [...] I'd wish you luck if it was not for all the money that will be wasted on this rather then onimprtant legal matters.

[QUOTE=dreadhead;119693]"I am asking the court to issue an order to Christopher Ilitch, President of Ilitch Holdings to publicly announce
that no real octopus can be brought into the arena ever again"
QUOTE]
This is already an announced and published policy that has been in place at the arena for some time. If once in the arena, and found by security, the parties are escorted out of the arena. They are not charged with anything because they have not broken any law.

As for the 24 hour frig rule. This does not apply to invertebrates or insects. A pet store that carries fish/ivertebrates only does not even require a pet shop license because there are NO regulations on the treatment/cruelty of fish, invertebrate or insects. In my opinion there should be but there are not.

This is not so much a waste of time but a waste of tax payer money. How about being more productive and get the tax payer money spent on trying to go after these money hungry oil companies so we can all benefit!!!!

[edited: basic message 'no one cares'] You will loose and waste thousands of tax payers dollars. I wish I could tell you how I really feel but I would be banned from the forum. If you take time to read the law invertebrates are not considered. Either are insects. You can kill and tortue them becuase they are considered food or nuisance. Did you know that ALL stadiums spray insecticides to kill bugs and lay down poison to control rodents. How many billions of innocent lifeforms must die so we can pleasure ourselves with sporting events. [...] I'd wish you luck if it was not for all the money that will be wasted on this rather then onimprtant legal matters.


Actually that's not strictly true, many of us do care! I find it totally offensive to toss the corpse of an animal around (whether it be an octopus a dog or whatever). We try very hard to teach our students to be respectful of the specimens they work with in the lab and I see no reason why sports people shouldn't have the same respect.

Just because inverts are not legally considered animals (interestingly squid, octopus, crabs and rock lobster are under NZ legislation!) doesn't mean they shouldn't be treated with respect.

Whether or not the lawsuit is going to waste money is to some extent up to Patrick, (although I assume the courts would have something to say as well). I agree it's going to be a hard one to prove but the same can be said of many lawsuits which ended up being landmark cases.

respectfully

J

Patrick, It will be interesting to hear how this progresses. I think many of us would appreciate the discontinuation of this tradition, even if we may not all agree about the best way to solve the problem.

Jellyman, you are welcome to express your opinion, but please be civil.

Patrick, It will be interesting to hear how this progresses. I think many of us would appreciate the discontinuation of this tradition, even if we may not all agree about the best way to solve the problem.

Jellyman, you are welcome to express your opinion, but please be civil.

I was extremely civil. Eveyone on this board is as guilty as the guy throwing the octopus onto the ice, including me. We take octopus from the wild, place them in tanks that are too small, and try to justify that we give them all the best living conditions possble. And for what, our own amusement. I enjoy my saltwater hobby even though I know what I provide for these fish is nowhere near the experience they would have had in the wild. It is lawsuits like this that threaten the freedoms that we have to express what we enjoy. Although it may be offensive to some to throw a dead octopus onto the ice, even though it was going to get chopped up and eaten anyway, it is still there right. Do I agree with the tradition? No, I think it is pretty pointless but this lawsuit is as pointless.

Actually that's not strictly true, many of us do care! I find it totally offensive to toss the corpse of an animal around (whether it be an octopus a dog or whatever). We try very hard to teach our students to be respectful of the specimens they work with in the lab and I see no reason why sports people shouldn't have the same respect.

Just because inverts are not legally considered animals (interestingly squid, octopus, crabs and rock lobster are under NZ legislation!) doesn't mean they shouldn't be treated with respect.

Whether or not the lawsuit is going to waste money is to some extent up to Patrick, (although I assume the courts would have something to say as well). I agree it's going to be a hard one to prove but the same can be said of many lawsuits which ended up being landmark cases.

respectfully

J


It is hypocritical to state on one hand it is not alright to treat animals poorly and on the other hand have students cut them up. None of the specimens you are using volunteer. You are talking degrees of cruelty. Please do not take that the wrong way, I feel as humans we need to use animals for research and testing. In the end it will not only help us but it will hopefully help the animal.

I really hope they do not pass legislation on Lobsters because I love the TV show the Deadliest Catch!!!

I really hope they do not pass legislation on Lobsters because I love the TV show the Deadliest Catch!!!


Humm, I don't think lobster laws would effect Deadliest Catch but it might effect my annual lobster dinner :hmm:

Humm, I don't think lobster laws would effect Deadliest Catch but it might effect my annual lobster dinner :hmm:

I know,just trying to lighten the mood.:mrgreen:

Thanks for toning it down a bit, jellyman.

I've tried to look at this from a few different perspectives. I think most people would be offended by throwing a dead dog or cat or dolphin or seal onto the ice, and probably even most dead food animals like chicken, cow, lamb, or pig. For some reason, I see less problem with tossing a fish, I'm not sure why, and I guess most people lump octos in with fish. I'm not sure there's a lot to be gained, or a solid legal standing, for a lawsuit on the subject, but I can imagine an indirect gain of bringing it to the attention of the media that octopuses are animals that are kept as pets, that have personalities, and are perhaps worthy of similar respect.

There are some countries that give cephalopods the same protections as vertebrates with respect to humane treatment, and there are some research institutions that treat them as "honorary vertebrates" in the U.S. even though they're not legally required to.

I think the "invertebrate" classification is not really an appropriate measure, anyway... if, rather than whether an animal has a backbone, we use number of neurons as the criterion (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_animals_by_number_of_neurons ) then an octopus should be treated with more respect than a cat. I'm pretty sure that if people were chucking dead cats onto the ice at hockey games, a lot more people than Patrick would be filing lawsuits.

I also think there are some qualitative differences between using animals for legitimate research purposes, so I disagree that it's hypocritical to "have students cut them up" and yet object to this hockey thing. It seems to be a fairly accepted norm that use of animals for research is more acceptable than use for food, pets, or entertainment, and that any of those should be done humanely and respectably. Throwing animal corpses around for entertainment is somewhat frowned upon in general, so it does seem weird that octopuses and fish are somehow not worthy of this respect. In any case, researchers also have well-defined standards of treatment to which they are supposed to adhere, so it's not really a fair comparison.

I'm not sure whether a lawsuit is the ideal method to pursue this; it does seem a bit quixotic and will require court time, but it also is not as frivolous as a lot of lawsuits that I hear about (and even one I wasted 2 weeks on jury duty for.)

I know,just trying to lighten the mood.:mrgreen:

That and the last I saw, king crabs were the item of the crazed frozen fishermen.

That and the last I saw, king crabs were the item of the crazed frozen fishermen.

True enough. There is a show called Lobsterman. That's pretty good too but deadliest Catch is better.

The reason I filed the lawsuit, was to have the court issue an order to Christopher Ilitch, to publicly state that methods will be implemented to guarantee that no real octopus bodies will be brought into the arena in the future. Every time I remember the man twirling the octopus like a lasso, it turns my stomach.
Octopus are caught for only 3 reasons: 1, food, 2, scientific research, and for pets. Not to be killed an their bodies used for our amusement.
If anyone is interested in this, you can contact me directly:
peewee_91762@yahoo.com

i forget where it was posted, but most of the lawsuits ive seen are basing thier cases off of one thing. apparently they have to have been refrigerated for 24 hours+ previous to sale. i may be quoting that wrong. man the red wings are screwed. theyre about to get hit with a lot of lawsuits. im surprised nobody addressed this earlier since its been around for a few years.

I watched part of Deadliest Catch once and had to turn it off; the sight of them hauling up hundreds to thousands of deep-sea crabs was too tragic for me. Made me feel sick.

:twocents:

I watched part of Deadliest Catch once and had to turn it off; the sight of them hauling up hundreds to thousands of deep-sea crabs was too tragic for me. Made me feel sick.

:twocents:

Really?? What do you eat? And in all seriousness I'm really interested. Everything we eat wheter it is farmed like cows or harvested like king crab is at the simplest form alot of life being prepared for human consumption. Those crabs have been being harvested for decades and due to the strict quota enforcement some of the largest numbers are being produced today. This is truely one example of how to properly farm the ocean.

there is a difference between the way an animal is used for, as you all say, "entertainment." attempting to keep it alive, healthy, and active in an aquarium, especially for educational purposes, is significantly different from throwing its dead body around in celebration. the first is constructive, the other destructive. therefore, using a cephalopod, or any animal, for constructive purposes does not make one as "guilty" as using it for destructive purposes- unless of course the government in question is pro-destruction. and using an animal as food is not destructive- it is the way of nature, that the predator eats the prey. however, in nature you will notice that animals eat only what they need- when was the last time a wild animal killed in surplus for the heck of it?

there is a difference between the way an animal is used for, as you all say, "entertainment." attempting to keep it alive, healthy, and active in an aquarium, especially for educational purposes, is significantly different from throwing its dead body around in celebration. the first is constructive, the other destructive. therefore, using a cephalopod, or any animal, for constructive purposes does not make one as "guilty" as using it for destructive purposes- unless of course the government in question is pro-destruction. and using an animal as food is not destructive- it is the way of nature, that the predator eats the prey. however, in nature you will notice that animals eat only what they need- when was the last time a wild animal killed in surplus for the heck of it?

It's funny how the opinion varies to the degree of what they believe is constructive. There are alot of people and organizations that feel the same way about using an animal for study or as a pet as you feel towards using them in a sports ritual.

Chimpanzee groups raid other groups of chimpanzees and kill for the sole purpose of killing.

Killers whales and dolphins play with their kills smacking it out of the water like a toy.

Killer whales will kill blue whales and eat nothing more then the eyes and tongue leaving the rest of the carcus to scavengers.

Male lions defend and kill to protect their territory.

Elephants have been killing rhinos due to the lack of a dominant male elephant keeping them in check.


I think it is a stupid ritual also, but I do not believe it is worth the attention this guy thinks it needs in light of all the other issues and causes that could really make a difference.

Why would the Redwings be "screwed"? They aren't buying or selling the octopus, the people attending the game are.
The Redwings have nothing to do with it.

Why would the Redwings be "screwed"? They aren't buying or selling the octopus, the people attending the game are.
The Redwings have nothing to do with it.

Exactly!! The Redwing's have actualliy implented a policy of not allowing octopus into the arena and they eject any fan caught sneeking one in. This lawsuit is ridiculous and is going after the money not the culprit.

This lawsuit is probably going to get thrown out of court as soon as it gets to a judge as the defendants are are being charged with the actions of persons they have no authority over and I'm sure that Patrick1948 understands that that. So most likely he is not seeking money damages, but is looking to increase media attention of a practice he would like to see end.

ive been told by a few friends (all red wings fanatics) that the red wings might be gettin sued over it. i was unaware that the red wings actually had a policy against it.

This is Patrick Greene of San Antonio, Texas
I call on all animal lovers in Michigan to start petitions all over the state, to send to Christopher Ilitch of Ilitch Holdings. Tell him that you want him to make sure that no more animal bodies get into the Joe Louis Arena. This horrible tradition with the octopus must be stopped NOW!
Write me at:
peewee_91762@yahoo.com
If the lawsuit fails, then public pressure will do the job.
IF public pressure fails, then legislation in Lansing will do it.

I think that perhaps the horse that is dead and rotting has been flogged quite enough. Please keep one thread open, and let the others here read it.

I will say that, in MY opinion, not that of tonmo or any other spokesperson here, that this is an unmerited lawsuit. I disagree with filing such a thing.

You may as well tilt at the windmills of Asia, where they eat small octopus alive, and have had for centuries.

I won't weigh in on the lawsuit, but I will echo Greg's observation that we've had enough new threads started on this topic. Please no more announcements on this topic unless there is new news to report -- and don't start a new thread, but rather reply to an existing one. Thanks.

Actually, I've just gone ahead and merged all the topics together. This is the right place for discussion of this lawsuit.

Really?? What do you eat? And in all seriousness I'm really interested. Everything we eat wheter it is farmed like cows or harvested like king crab is at the simplest form alot of life being prepared for human consumption. Those crabs have been being harvested for decades and due to the strict quota enforcement some of the largest numbers are being produced today. This is truely one example of how to properly farm the ocean.

I have to admit I haven't seen the deadliest catch....so I need to ask, do these fishers reseed the crab fishery? If not, it's not farming.....it's wild harvest, albeit one that seems to be being managed well.

No, they do not re-seed.

What do you eat?

No seafood, anymore. But before deciding it was easiest categorically exclude all seafood, I mostly tried to avoid anything harvested from a habitat that in no way naturally overlaps with human habitats, e.g., the open ocean and deep sea.

No seafood, anymore. But before deciding it was easiest categorically exclude all seafood, I mostly tried to avoid anything harvested from a habitat that in no way naturally overlaps with human habitats, e.g., the open ocean and deep sea.

That's cool. I'm just a curious person. I like that everyone has differences. I just wish we could all understand that it is alright to be different and not pass negative judgement on people because we see things in a different light. I enjoy a good debate/discussion but I do not like someone "telling" me my way is wrong without an educated conversation. That's how I feel about this lawsuit. Made him upset. Filed lawsuit against the wrong party. Still does not have his facts straight.

I stopped eating saltwater fish a few years ago, but I still eat farm raised (in Arizona !) shrimp now and again. Most of the shellfish are also sustainable, such as oysters and clams. These have been seeded for hundreds of years by the harvesters.

I wish I liked the flavour of calamari, because they are reproducing like crazy in the Pacific, due to the depleted predatory fish population.

Back on topic: I understand the sentiment, but the reasoning doesn't work for me. I hate seeing any animal's life wasted in some sort of sport related event, it is truly foolish. Perhaps he should sue the fans?

Lawsuit has been thrown out. Judge Nancy G Edmunds said the complaint was on its face totally implausable, frivolous and devoid of merit.