Regarding the possible large size of the squid species. In 1994 whilst on board the 40 foot yacht 'Respite' I encountered a bioluminscent object during the early hours 40 miles off the Portuguese coast near Nazare that dwarfed the yacht. I estimated the body (Mantle?) to be between 80 to 150 feet long and 20 to 45 feet in diameter. The trailing area (beyond the truncated end) appeared to have wriggling pink tubes (Tetacles?) with dark blotches. It was a dark cloud covered night appart from the glow of the yachts navigation lights. The object was visible due to a red bioluminescent diamond 'coarse fishing net mesh' and a brighter glow near the 'head and tentacle' end. I now (many years later) recognise that its shape and movement had the characteristics of the squid family but on a grand scale. From this experience I can now believe that a type of squid 200 feet long could exist. Regarding whale scars would they grow at a uniform rate and remain circular as the whale matures or would they distort?

Perhaps what you saw may have been something like a very big Lion Mane's jellyfish? I am not sure if they are luminiscent?

if it was a jellyfish, it would be one of epic proportions.

:welcome: to TONMO! My dad's boat is also named "Respite," but it's not so big... and we've never seen anything like that (although he rarely takes it out of San Fransisco Bay, where there is a paucity of giant squids).

I'm not sure what you mean by "diamond 'coarse fishing net'"-- did it look like it was covered in a giant, glowing fishnet stocking?

This is certainly larger than any known large squid, if your estimates are correct. One possibility I can imagine is that it may have been phosphorescent algae or similar stirred up by some large object and leaving a trail... I've seen things like that off California occasionally, although usually glowing blue-green rather than red.

Most large squids don't have photophores distributed like that, almost all are actually pretty dark. Taningia danae has light organs at the end of its arms and I think a few other places, but, as in most squids, they tend to be small, localized points of light. Red bioluminescence is quite rare in marine species, squids included, because red light doesn't travel well in water, so it's neither good for countershading for camouflage nor visibility for attracting mates or prey. There are a few exceptions: there's a very deep-sea fish (maybe a lanternfish or an angler?) that uses red light that it can see but most deep sea animals can't, so it can see its prey in the dark. I've occasionally wondered if the (non-glowing) red coloration of many large squids is because with their large eyes they can see each other in the dark waters they normally inhabit, but other animals there with smaller eyes tend to see them as black since there's so little red light.

I suppose I've gone rather afield of the question, but a glowing red squid would be interesting. The size and pattern being unlike any squid reported make me inclined to look for a non-squid explanation, though.

I would be inclined to follow your conjecture, Monty: a disturbed "cloud" of bioluminescent plankton would be my first guess, but red, hmmmm, not familiar with any other species bar the aforementioned deep sea teleosts, Malacosteus, Aristostomias, and Pachystomias...

(EDIT: Erenna tentilla!)

Maybe it was a Neil Diamond course fishing net? :no_diamond:

Our "friend" Ice Cherry is playing Rotterdam on the 24th of May, by the way, run, do not walk, to the hills!

http://www.homepages.hetnet.nl/~rstoof/RickNeilstudio.jpg

This was not a jellyfish. It approached the yacht at tremendous vertical speed, say 50 knts. Later that night 2 dolphins approached and went under the yacht. I could see them due to the white phosphoresence. They were far slower than the large bioluminescent creature I saw earlier as it approached vertically (It slowed as it went horizontal and under the yacht). I have spent quite a few hours at sea in various sailing craft over the last 45 years and have seen sharks, whales, dolphins and porpoises. I was initially trained as a Yacht Designer and have mechanical engineering and Yachtmaster qualifications so hope my technical training would help me assess what I had seen. I have tried to be as objective as I can, based on what I know and what I have seen, I remain convinced that this was some sort of large squid species with a mantle arround 100 feet long. I cannot think of any other explanation that fits the facts.
When it left the yacht the 'leading' end dropped down so that it hung vetrically. I was able to see it due to a white swirling arround it's body (the mantle contracting, pumping and generating flow in the Siphon?). It gave the impression of an upside down rocket prior to take off. It then rapidly accelerated into the depths and disappeared.

DESCRIPTION OF EVENT JULY 1994 30 MILES OF PORTUGUESE COAST
Yacht and Location:
I am a structural engineer/designer (55 years old) with long experience (45 years) of the sea and small boats. In between engineering jobs I worked as a delivery skipper in the early 90's. In 1994 (probably around the 5th of July based on the log which I only have from the 12th onwards) I was assisting delivery of a Jeanneau Sunshine 38 named ‘Respite’ (a 38 foot long modern shallow fin and skeg yacht with stomach jarring slamming characteristics, painted black below WL and with some barnacle fouling on the bottom). We were making slow progress under sail, about 30 miles off the coast of Portugal (probably north of Peniche where the Nazare Canyon runs to a depth of 5 km), and it was about 2 am with the boat was banging (slamming) into a slight swell with light winds. We were doing about 4 knots at max and more probably only 3knots in a Northerly direction.

Description of Event:
The vessel was suddenly approached rapidly by an under water object from the starboard aft quarter. Initially my eye was caught by a whitish circular glow in the water, which must have been the object viewed end on coming vertically upwards towards us. The trajectory of the object was close to vertical and then it rapidly slowed and changed to horizontal motion aligning itself with the fore and aft axis of the boat. It then slowly travelled vertically towards the underside of the vessel. The shape was that of a mildly tapering cylinder round at one end and truncated at the other, outlined by a glowing net shape (it was dark – no moonlight) of varying shades of red colour (as if a slightly tapered cylinder had a bright red coloured fishing net rapped around it - the nodes were thicker than the connecting lines which tapered in to the middle then widened, the reds were of varying shades – it reminded me of the mesh of a structural finite element model). Initially I thought it might have been a dolphin (they glow white in the water due to phosphorescence) but why glowing red? It rotated with its ‘forward?’ end lining up with our transom and aft end lining up with the bow. The forward round end was a smaller diameter than the rear end. The rear end appeared to stop abruptly as if cut off at right angles (truncated). The diameter to length was about 3:1. The diamond mesh size was about a tenth of the diameter. This all happened over about 5 seconds. The body continued to move vertically in the water, towards the bottom of the yacht (It must have been at quite a depth when I first saw it) and became visually much larger. It was at this point that I became alarmed as I could see the red mesh outline of the body projecting beyond the vessel forward and appearing less so aft and to port and starboard. I thought I could now see something pink/red beyond the ‘cut off’ area – wriggling tubes forward well beyond the bow with very bright luminescence all nearer the surface of the sea. This bright, wriggling pink area appeared to be just beyond the ‘cut off’ of the mesh body. The mesh colouring was now relatively very bright (but less bright than the luminescent area forward of the bow which was not a mesh but continuous) especially when compared with earlier (it had been deeper down) the more intense red colour clearly showing the shape of the body but not in as bright a way as the luminescence forward of the bow. I think the reds on the mesh were changing shades of colour. I estimated the size as a minimum of 60 foot long by 20 foot wide although when I draw my scale line of vision side view of the yacht afloat above this creature it could have been far larger (note the area forward of the boat appeared to be closer to the waters surface than the net delineated taper cylinder shape laying under the stern – the tapered mesh end hanging down maybe 30 degrees or more to the horizontal).
It lay for a while under the bottom of the boat aligned fore and aft and motionless save for the wriggling forward, say for 10 seconds. It did not appear to break the surface. In an instant the taper end rotated down and forward towards the yachts bow. It then dived down from the yachts port bow travelling taper end first and was seen by myself as a whitish streak disappearing quickly into the depths.
I normally have detected whales by smell or the sound or exhaling when they are close, no smell no noise - I felt my life might be in danger and was in shock at the shear size of the thing. My instincts were to keep perfectly still whilst standing at the yachts wheel, whilst this occurred (not even moving my head). I did not have the time or the inclination to shine a torch over the side and it was all over very quickly. It appeared to act as one body and not like a school of fish i.e. a complete entity.
Tim Lipington MRAeS AMRINA Inc.Eng. RYA Yachtmaster

It did look as if it was covered in a red bioluminescent glowing fishnet stocking showing by outline a body shape - a taper cylinder rounded at the leading edge and truncated at the trailing edge. At the edge I thought I could just see the edge of the body, a different shade from the sea indicating something solid. Beyond the bow of the yacht I could see a brighter glow in the water as if a submersable had its search lights on. This was only in the forward area where the wriggling tubes were. The body was defined visually by the 'fishnet stocking' - hope this helps you picture what I have seen. I am planning to get a painting created to show what I saw.

Your description sounds fascinating and intriguing - if it was a squid then maybe A.G.Starkey wasn't making it up?! :sink:

This is a very elaborate story, Tim. Excuse us our scientifically inclined scepsis, as it might get in the way of wonderment. I am eager to find an explanation, as you are yourself, but rest assured that no known cephalopod comes anywhere close to your description.

Let's speculate!

Hoax is not interesting and therefore off the map, if only for argument's sake. On top of that, I will, as always, assume your integrity to be complete, until proven otherwise. I read your similar entry on wikipedia, and as we are a humorous lot at TONMO, the thought of one of our established posters to have created a new ficticious account with your wiki entry in mind, did cross my mind initially...

Suspense of disbelief.

On to the topic. Was there any hint of fins near the tapering end of the ghostish apparition you encountered? Secondly, would you concur that a speed of 50 knots is hard to attain by even the fastest marine creatures, such as sailfish (clocked at 110 km/h = 68 m/h!) and mako sharks? The hint this assessment gives of exaggeration might lead some posters to read your other statements in a similar light. On a third note, could a small submersible, as indicated by a glow of underwater lights, not prove to be Occam's razor in this particular case?

I look forward to your assessments, convinced as we all are that mysterious creatures still abound in the vast open ocean.

I totally understand any disbelief regarding what I have stated. I still find it hard to believe what I have seen but I can only desribe the encounter as accurately as I can. My estimate of speed is a pure guess based on relative sizes and could be far too high (it was based on an instantaneous impression). If one scales up a squid to the extraordinary sizes I am suggesting then it should be possible to estimate the speed potential for a syphon driven sprint to the surface. I will go back to my Naval Architecture theory - dynamic similitude (scaling) and see if I can come up with some numbers!
As an avaiation structural signatory and ex delivery skipper I can only hope to present myself as a reliable and responsible whitness.
I am trained to be cynical as part of my job so understand and expect any such responses. I can only repeat that I have attempted to describe what I saw that night accurately and to the best of my ability. I am an senior engineer and experienced sailor. I have no reason to make up such a story. If it was a submarine the people would have had to have been strapped in as it travelled vertically up and down. What were the wriggling tubes about? How would they be part of a submarine? I have been at a loss for the past 14 years to explain what I have seen but it does appear to have some squid characteristics - I do not think it was a whale or a shoal of fish. I would like to know if anyone else has ever seen anything similar?

Regarding the question were there any fins at the taper end I do not remember seeing any evidence that there were any. I had a sly backward glance to see how far the thing extended aft beyond the yachts transom but only remember seeing the red mesh showing the round tapered end. However there may have been fins present but not visible. I was only able to see clearly what was outlined by the red bioluminescent mesh and the bright glow in the water forward. The yachts navigation lights gave a low level of light intensity (port & starboard + stern lights). The object/creature was able to move vertically at a slow and in what appeared to be a a very controlled way so that it lay just under the yacht with the truncated end near the surface beyond the yachts bow and the body hanging down at about 20 degrees to the surface of the sea and projecting beyond the stern. It was keeping pace with the yacht at say 3 knts. I would have thought fins were present required to provide this ammount of control. However I can only relate to the world what I have seen and I did not see any fins. I do not remember it breaking the surface or making contact with the yacht.

Maybe you had an encounter with "bloop" ?

http://archives.cnn.com/2002/TECH/science/06/13/bloop/

and on this subject, I wonder if any more was heard of this:

http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2004/12/20/184723/82

I can only describe what I have seen but if had to stick my neck out I would say it was squid-like in many ways, maybe it was a member of the "bloop" family! Perhaps the military can explain? I feel I have done my bit in trying to comunicate a description of this encounter. If someone else has had a similar visitation from the deep then it will give my description more credibility.

Tim Stress Eng, I've searched far and wide for stories of Giant Squid encounters, the only thing I'm wondering is why are we hearing of your remarkable encounter only now???

Why have I come out of the closet now? At the time we, (The crew of the yacht) explained this event to ourselves as probably a whale with a net wrapped arround it. Although I have always doubted this explanation I was the only member of the crew on deck at the time and thus the only one to have experienced the encounter. We had a yacht that was not in the best of condition with which we had had problems. We, as a crew needed to get on with the task of getting her safely across the Bay of Biscay and this was the priority not some wild story from one of the crew of biloluminescsent sea creatures. On returning to the UK I returned to engineering and was very busy on various projects and also in my personal life. I did not appear to have any sensible 'vehicle' in which to publicise the encounter which I did not think anyone would believe anyway. This was an encounter of which I have no proof and I was concerned that such a story might also effect my credibility among my fellow sailors. I am now older and professionally a little more established and have access to the current, more highly developed, internet. Development of the Internet has also allowed me to attempt to search for an explanation from my desk without it taking up a large ammount of my spare time (as with most people I have many other interests and priorities). In my search (to some extent inspired by Dr Steve O' Shea's recent publicity) I have learnt enough to have convinced myself that what I had seen could have been some sort of squid species. Subsequently I have always made light of, and joked about this encounter with my friends and colleagues. Having now decided that what I had seen may be of scientific intererest and may be taken more seriously I have taken the gamble and am attempting to relate this experience to a section of the scientific community. I am not getting any younger and I did want this observation of an encounter to be lost in case it proves to have some significance. I am hoping that my experience will trigger other people to come forward who have had similar sightings. As I have stated the yacht slammed into say every second or third wave very badly being very flat up forward. My hunch is that the hitting of a flat surface on the water sent shock waves which appeared to attract the attention of this visitor and later on that night, what I assumed to be two dolphins (torpedo like shapes highlighted by white glowing phosophorescense) which swam under the boat, stopped instananeously and then swam off and disappeared. I have devoted some of my spare time to this 'cause' only over the past 12 months. Thus my story has only appeared during this period of activity.

Tim, could you post a link to the Wikipedia article of yours someone referenced -I tried, but can't seem to find it.

Rob Romero

Without stealing Tim's thunder, it's here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Tim_lipington

Since I wrote the piece in Wikepedia I have thought long and hard about the experience and will try and add more detail to the article.
In the past I tended to think - no one will believe me so whats the point in telling the story! So I put it to the back of my mind and got on with things. Revisiting my visual memory's of that period of my life and this particular event is bringing back more specific detail of the encounter.
The speeds I have talked about sound rather wild and implausable but are a guess from an instantaneous impression of speed combined with my estimated size of the object. What speed capability have modern technology torpedo's and attack nuclear submarines? How fast are small squid? How would that speed scale? If one assumes my description is true it triggers so many questions. All I can say is that I was in the wrong place at the wrong time or right depending on ones view and without any understanding of what was occuring this was what I saw that night.

Has to be the right time and I bet if you could, you'd go back and encounter it again. I'd glady give up my right leg to experience something so unknown - although I have seen some very strange lights in the Devon night sky whilst out and about with my telescope (and no, it wasn't an airplane, satellite, meteor or planet and no I was quite sober, worse luck!).

Probably right, however this appeared to be a large object when compared with the yacht. I'm glad that it quickly appeared to lose interest in us. It could have been the wrong place if this had not been the case.

One further thought about my attitude and state of mind at the time of the sighting whilst working as professional delivery crew; the boat was very uncomfortable at sea with this terrible, stomach jarring banging and slamming as we tried to push to windward and we were very fed up life on board the boat whilst at sea. I had a contract engineering job (I had just about run out of money whilst delivering small yachts and needed the money I could earn on contract) waiting for me in Cambrdge in the UK and all I was interested in was getting home as quickly and as safely as possible.
The last thing I wanted to see was something that appeared far larger than the yacht approaching underneath the yacht near a potentially vulnerable fin keel and spade rudder. We had enough other potential risks and problems to contend with in our attempt to get the boat across the bay of Biscay and to the UK without encountering one that was not even on the radar. So at the time I did not appreciate nor feel blessed but more cursed with having my eyes open to a possible risk that prior to this I did not know existed. A comforting thought as you try to sleep with less than 9 mm of GRP between you and and the sea. We knew that being run down by shipping, submerged containers, whales protecting young, bad weather, food and water contamination, sudden iillness, MOB and fire/explosion were possible risks but not this.

Re squid speed I will carry out a preliminary 'look see' using naval architecture principals. Regarding my revisiting the scale of the creature I encountered (in reply to the obvious scepticism as to the scale I have described), I have recently checked in the local marina the relative size of the bioluminescent squid-like animal that came under the yacht off the Portuguese coast in the summer of 1994. I climbed on board a similar sized yacht and envisaged the limits of the creature I saw. I was able to align these limits with several marina features.
Here are the values - Mantle 100 feet long plus, plus tentacle length and mantle diameter 35 feet. I think this encounter is living proof that the 100 foot plus squid exists in fact I would stake my professional engineering career on this fact.

I cannot surely be the only man on the planet who has seen this large creature. I am hoping that others will now come forward with their encounter descriptions.

Its vertical ascent gave the impression of great speed towards the sea's surface. For small squid I have seen values of 40 km/hour quoted. Scale this up and what do you get? Drag goes up proportionally with cross section area. I guess that the power goes up proportional with mass - muscle size? Could such a large squid be capable of 80 km/hour or 45 to 50 knots for short bursts. My instantaneous guess from what I saw at the time was it's vertical speed was 50 knots. I can imagine that the squid has a very low drag coefficient (very slippery shape) and being jet propelled is capable of high speeds for short bursts.

To clarify my position: my angle is that of a small yacht sailor who has seen something unusual and not as a knowledgable marine biology scientist; although my wife has worked as a research biologist and I have worked in engineering research so I have some idea of how some areas of research work. I have no vested interest in whether anyone believes me or not and can only say to people this is what I have seen and this is what I think it was (having spent the last year looking part time into the possibility of large sea creatures). I hope this is not just dismissed as 'crank dilusions' and that the possibility that such a large creatures exists is more seriously considered.

My only concern is that 'large' has to develop from small, so a '100 foot-long' specimen (whether some new species or a very large specimen of some other known species) has to grow from something that's rather small. (Otherwise the parent squid would be several km long.)

I am not aware of any streamlined squid (given you've been talking hydrodynamics) that is known from specimens of immature-to-large-size only (meaning the mature animal is super-sized). Moreover, something of the size you report must (during development) reach a more 'conventional' giant or colossal squid size before attaining sauropod dimension; giant and colossal squid are readily consumed by sperm whales. No 'giant- or colossal-sized beak' of an unknown species of squid is known from the stomach contents of predators such as the sperm whale (or other predators), to support the existence of a beast of the dimensions you propose.

I'd say whatever it was that it wasn't a squid. Sorry.

It had a squid shaped profile and propelled itseslf with the tentacles trailing. When it headed for the depths the leading end (taper rounded non tentacled end) dropped down untill it was hanginging vertically down with tentacles uppermost. There appeared a swirling of white glowing phosphorescence around the body - I could no longer see the red diamond mesh bioluminscent outline (this vision reminded me of a rocket on a launch pad but upside down) which I subsequently assume was the mantle rythmicly contracting to generate propulsion pressure for the syphon exiting the phosphorescence and generating the swirling glow. It then dispeared accelerating to what appeared to be a great speed travelling vertically downwards from near the surface of the sea off the port bow of the yacht. At no time during this encounter did it break the surface but had the tentacle end nearer the sea's surface (beyond the yachts bow) than the rounded tapered end (beyond and below the yachts stern). I guess it hung at about 20 degrees to the sea surface whilst under the yacht aligned fore and aft with the yachts centreline. I only wish an expert had been on board as a whitness - I am sure that he or she would have been totally amazed at what we encountered that night 30 or 40 miles off the coast of Portugal (I think we may well have been passing over the Nazare Canion). Knowledge is generally based only on what we have encountered. The unknown often comes as a shock and I was certainly very shocked by what I saw that night. I can only repeat that it had many squid-like features in both shape, form and locomotion - thus my conclusion that it was some sort of super sized squid. If not a squid what was it as it was certainly not a whale although for shear size had the scale of a large whale or was even bigger? What else can I say as a layman in these matters!

Just a further thought Steve, if this animal exists it would be a top end predator feeding on smaller animals such as juvenile or small whale (say around 40 foot long). Surely it would be too large for a Sperm Whale to tackle for food thus no large beaks would ever be found inside whale stomach's. When it dies surely its remains would drop to the bottom of the deep ocean. We would thus never find any evidence such an animal exists by conventional squid study methods. The animals would probably feed during the hours of darkness.Thus I propose that the only way we would know of this animals existance is by a chance encounter. I think that we could possibly attract it to the surface by slapping the surface of the water (simulating the slapping of a whales fins on the sea surface) together with presenting a whale-like profile on the surface of the sea thus simulating what I think occurred off the coast of Portugal in 1994. Shock waves will travel vast distances in water so could be detected from a long distance away.

I think what Steve was getting at is if it was a new (to science) species of squid, it wouldn't just jump from being small to being super-sized and immune from all other top predators in an instant - it would have "in between" sized growth stages as well where it could be vulnerable to being eaten by the likes of sperm whales (and therefore the beaks would potentially be available for study). I guess maybe it could have some sort of defensive against the normal large squid predators or perhaps it was an exceptional size of "known" squid - speculation of course. You did mention that at first you though it might have been a whale caught in a net, but on closer inspection, it didn't have any whale features?

I am sure the sea hasn't yet given up all of its mysteries and whatever you saw that night, confirms it....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/6768821.stm

Yes the crew pursuaded me that it was a whale which helped my peace of mind at the time - I am now convinced that it was not a whale. Maybe some known species of squid get plentifull food and this turbo-charges their growth and changes them rapidly to the 'super-sized' squid which may also develope different chacteristics to the smaller squid on the way. Maybe this type of squid protects it young? This creature made a decision not to attack and thus possibly displayed reasoned thought. Are squid intelligent? I understand your difficulty but I also find it difficult to understand how I could have seen such a thing.

For reference, Tim's original description is here: http://www.tonmo.com/forums/showthread.php?p=114057#post114057 with further details in following posts.

In addition to the sensible biological objections Steve raises above, it seems to me that the observations are not consistent with any other observation of large cephalopods. The description of the size, behavior, pattern of luminescence, and geographic location are quite different from any sighting of any large cephalopod ever reported. I understand that you very much want to convince people that what you saw was a tremendous squid, but if that were the case, you would likely find things became more consistent with your memories as you discuss this in a forum with experts, while, in fact, you are finding yourself arguing hypothetical ways that this hypothetical giant squid might be different than every other cephalopod ever studied. If it's a squid that's completely unlike every other squid in every way except gross shape and living in the water, why assume it's a squid at all?

As the only eyewitness, if you insist it was a squid for your own personal belief reasons, in the absence of any other evidence, no one can prove anything one way or another, but what you have described is not consistent with any cephalopod supported by any other evidence than your account, so if you're hoping that repeating the story is going to eventually lead to someone giving you an answer you like better, they'd be bucking the trend.

You requested that you not be considered a crackpot, but frankly, coming up with rationalizations to support the conclusion you want to believe in the face of all evidence to the contrary is typical crackpot behavior. Steve is a world-class expert in giant squids (and a number of other cephalopod taxa, and toothed whales, and the ecology of other marine organisms)... I wouldn't say that his opinions are beyond questioning, but suggesting "maybe everything Steve said is completely wrong" should not be done lightly. If your theory about what you saw requires that, I think you need to give some very serious thought to re-evaluating it.

In any case, it was certainly not Mesonychoteuthis hamiltonii based on size, location, and description, so we should probably steer this thread back to discussion of the upcoming thaw of the large specimen of that species... (admittedly, I strayed pretty far off-topic in debating extrapolation of squid size based on beak size, too :oops:)

I'm going to copy the posts from the "squid sucker marks on whales" and this thread related to Tim's eyewitness account into a new thread for discussion there.

I totally understand your response. You are quite correct in making the point that I am not a world leading specialist in the study of squid. I am however, a senior engineer (Acting Head of Structures for a an aircraft company and a UK Civil Aviaition Designated Structural Signatory and a qualified delivery skipper) and as such hope that the responsible position I hold within this company and have held whilst working at others will be taken into account when my account and conclusion are judged. I have attempted, in good faith to describe what I have seen accurately and in as much detail as I could remember. From what little I know about marine life, this was my conclusion i.e the 'nearest fit'. I knew that this would be controversal and this is probably why I have not attempted to report this at any time over the past 14 years. I appologise if I have caused any offence but I stand by my description. I am not suggesting Steve is completely wrong and I am right but I wanted to emphasise how strongly I thought it resembled certain squid characteristics. I would not be so arrogant as to say that the worlds leading experts are wrong and I as a complete laymen am correct, but what was it?
I do hope that people will take an even handed interest in my description of this encounter and not just dismiss it out of hand and that is why I have been perhaps a little to forcefull with my opinions. If there are inconsitency's and some ill considered statements in my responses it is partly because I am rushing this out in between current engineering work and I again apologise.

Look, I'm sorry I rubbed you the wrong way, but I decided that you seem like an intelligent enough guy that I shouldn't just dismiss you out of hand, ignore you and hope you go away, or make fun of you. However, when I decide to give someone that level of respect, that goes along with the idea that I'm not going to pull punches in having an intelligent debate.

This site has an unusual mix of professional scientists, educated lay-people, and complete novices, but I've been continually impressed at how we're able to have intelligent and reasonable discussions that address all these levels. I am immensely pleased that we have world-class experts who are willing to participate, and I think it's important to take them seriously.

The collected wisdom on TONMO about the biology of cephalopods, giant and otherwise, is something I'm proud to be part of. I am not a professional squid expert, and I may shoot from the hip occasionally, but I have found no shortage of professionals willing to correct me when I'm wrong. The fact that the people who have spoken up don't see a way to reconcile the report of your experience with your theory that it was a giant squid is telling, but more telling is that none of the experts who have remained silent have jumped in to defend your theory.

I haven't seen anyone dispute your description, and I think that's entirely reasonable since, as a single eyewitness, there is no way to get any more information than what you report. You assert "From what little I know about marine life, this was my conclusion i.e the 'nearest fit'." Perhaps, then, you should take the attitude of a student, and learn more about the characteristics of giant squids, and consider objectively whether, as you learn more, the explanation of "giant squid" as what you saw becomes more or less plausible. It seems that there is a strong correlation that the more expertise anyone has about squids, the more they react with skepticism that your description matches a squid. It also seems that you have less interest in discussing why that is the prevailing view, and more interest in repeating that you're sure that you're right.

If you are interested in learning more about squids in order to evaluate what you've seen, or because you're genuinely interested in general, many people in our community would be happy to help you. And I, and I'm sure I speak for others, would appreciate your input in discussing the implications of hydrodynamics on squid propulsion.

To be entirely blunt, though, you give me the impression that you only want this community to accept your assertion that you must be right, not to learn anything. I actually feel bad about having this impression, and I would love to be proven wrong, because I like to see the best in people, and I am genuinely curious about what you saw from the sailboat. If you want to discuss it, though, I think you need to face up to the fact that no one here on TONMO has said they even think it's possible, let alone likely, that a squid of any sort exists that fits the details of your description.

If nothing else, I suggest that you re-read your apology/explanation, and observe that at no point do you acknowledge the possibility that what you saw could be anything other than a squid, except by putting the onus on us to say "but what was it?" Why should you expect us to have any meaningful opinion on what it may have been unless it was a cephalopod?

I want to clarify that I have no interest in censorship, dismissal, or bullying of Tim or anyone else. I have not removed any posts, I have not banned any users, and I have tried to encourage open discussion, and organized the discussion of Tim's encounter into its own thread, not the dustbin. If anyone has suggestions on a more reasonable way to give Tim's theory about his encounter due consideration, I'm quite open to them. I have to say that I'm feeling more :banghead: than :sink: at present, though.

:welcome: Tim

It is relatively rare for animals to glow red. There are some deep sea fish that do, as well as some siphonophores. When I initially read your description, my first thought was siphonophores. When I have a moment, I will do a little more research on this topic.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/07/050708054735.htm

Sorry--just found this thread. Is this an elaborate put-on?
Everything about it seems to indicate just that. (I didn't
check the original post date--it wasn't April 1, was it???) :shock:

I've had a looooong week.

Vince

Sorry--just found this thread. Is this an elaborate put-on?
Everything about it seems to indicate just that. (I didn't
check the original post date--it wasn't April 1, was it???) :shock:

I've had a looooong week.

Vince

Hmmm, a possibility I hadn't considered (silly me). His join date was 3/31 which could easily have been 4/1 in the UK... It seems like rather late in the game for continuing the joke, but I suppose it is still April...

edit: he recounted his tale here on 11/9/07:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Tim_lipington

which, I think, rules out April Foolery.

A siphonophore is something I hadn't considered at all... interesting idea (and it led me to discover the interesting website at http://siphonophores.org/ ) Reading a bit, I found that many siphonophores are free swimmers... are they fast enough to account for this?

What if this organism was being carried by upwelling? As I recall, 1994 was an El Nino year...

I'm pretty sure that in an el nino year the upwelling that normally occurs on the eastern border of the oceans switches to downwelling and some upwelling takes place on the western border of the oceans. But then again the temperature change from the warm water downwelling might cause an animal to move out of its usual location. And that website that Monty linked to states that siphonophores have been found as long as 40 m (~131 ft)

Very interesting possibility, but the speed would still seem to be a problem.

Hmmm, a possibility I hadn't considered (silly me). His join date was 3/31 which could easily have been 4/1 in the UK... It seems like rather late in the game for continuing the joke, but I suppose it is still April...

edit: he recounted his tale here on 11/9/07:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Tim_lipington

which, I think, rules out April Foolery.

Hallucinogenics are also a possibility. . . . :bonk::rainbow::bugout:

Sorry, I don't mean to be a jerk--really, I don't! But again
this all sounds ludicrous.

But then, I could be completely wrong.

I'm a skeptic.:zappa: (I know--the Zappa icon has nothing to
do with my post, but I thought it was cool anyway.)

Vince

Hallucinogenics are also a possibility. . . . :bonk::rainbow::bugout:

Sorry, I don't mean to be a jerk--really, I don't! But again
this all sounds ludicrous.

But then, I could be completely wrong.

I'm a skeptic.:zappa: (I know--the Zappa icon has nothing to
do with my post, but I thought it was cool anyway.)

Vince

Well, I've certainly learned that a lot of things that sounds ludicrous can sometimes be right... but I'd like to look at the sighting at face value, and see what we can figure out. I'm pretty skeptical about the huge cephalopod, because it seems inconsistent with what is known about huge cephalopods (and it's no doubt obvious that I got more than a bit grumpy on that point) but I can believe that Tim saw something unusual. I'm pretty suspicious that the "looks like a fishing net" is indicative that it was some animal caught in a fishing net, disguising its appearance, since I'm not aware of any marine animal, ceph or otherwise, that has a fishnet pattern... but I can easily imagine that a net in some sort of red flourescent plankton or algae could explain part of this. I started to look for what animals red flourescent protein ( used in molecular biology) was cloned from, but I got distracted by looking at the squidcicle webcam... green GFP was cloned from a jellyfish, but there's a whole page of different red/yellow/green/blue/orange floursecent protein genes that are inserted into embryos and such, and I didn't find a good reference for what animal/plant/etc each comes from... Since I did find a lot of references that red at depth is only known in dragonfish and siphonophores and perhaps a few rare organisms, I'm guessing that the source of the red light was likely to be something relatively shallow-water, like surface plankton or algae.

I want to give Tim's story a fair shake, and not accuse him of hallucinating or fabricating it, but I'm finding that the squid explanation is requiring more and more science fiction added the more closer we look, so it seems that there is a lot of evidence that it's barking up the wrong tree.

I think skepticism is good, jerkitude is not, and I'm also in the "I don't mean to be a jerk-- really" camp. But one of the things I really like about TONMO is that we can discuss Cthulhu stories and hypothetical "what if..." science fiction and discuss real, solid biology, but we are very good at not getting too mixed up on which is which. I signed up on a "true crime" web forum recently, and it's really made me appreciate how TONMO manages to avoid letting kooky theories get out of hand without needing to be condescending or abusive to people with genuine curiosity... I don't think I'll be spending much more time over there... I have complete sympathy for Tim, in that he finally found a plausible explanation for something that's been bugging him for years, and was hoping we'd confirm it... but as much as I'd love for him to have seen a kraken, I just don't see the observations fitting the theory....

I just found this thread. Very interesting too.

Hmmm, a possibility I hadn't considered (silly me). His join date was 3/31 which could easily have been 4/1 in the UK... It seems like rather late in the game for continuing the joke, but I suppose it is still April...

edit: he recounted his tale here on 11/9/07:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Tim_lipington

which, I think, rules out April Foolery.
I just reviewed this thread, too (but not every word). Lots of content to digest!

Can't you edit / manipulate post dates in Wiki? Even if you can't, it doesn't mean that Tim's involvement here on TONMO.com might not purposefully be in conjunction with April Fool's, with the Wiki entry planted prior. That'd be a pretty good one if it were a hoax! Elaborate, indeed.

But, who knows. Nobody, obviously. So since there is no evidence to support the claims, I'm not sure what left there is to get from this discussion (although as Monty stated, there is nothing here remotely worthy of banning, locking, censoring or closing -- just an observation that there's not much left here of any value).

In the future if someone hauls up a 120 foot squid, or someone finds a squid beak the size of a beer keg, I'll come back and read this thread in more detail! :smile:

:sink:

Can't you edit / manipulate post dates in Wiki? Even if you can't, it doesn't mean that Tim's involvement here on TONMO.com might not purposefully be in conjunction with April Fool's, with the Wiki entry planted prior. That'd be a pretty good one if it were a hoax! Elaborate, indeed.

Although anyone can edit on wikipedia, AFAIK only moderators or 1337 Haxxors can change the dates or contents of the edit history. But Tim seems genuine to me, just so attached to the (what's bigger than colossal) gargantuan, immense squid theory that he comes across frustrated and defensive.

I agree. Truth be told, I wish there was a verifiable sighting somewhere of a ceph of gargantuan proportions. That would be sooooo cool!

And if we act jerky towards him or accuse him of hallucinating, hoaxing etc. what is the chance other people will speak up when they see things out of the ordinary. I was called stupid by my brother for years for being open minded about giant squid reports, guess who was right in the long run. (he claims not to remember this)

Monty, you didn't go on one of those Bob Crane murder websites did you?

Monty, you didn't go on one of those Bob Crane murder websites did you?

Nah, my only Bob Crane interest is the occasional Hogan's Heroes rerun.

If you must know, I find the San Fransisco "Zodiac" killer sort of embarrassingly :oops: fascinating, I think because he was around and about while I was growing up in the SF Bay Area :goofysca: and was never caught, but sent letters and cryptograms that reveal some of his creepy psychotic cleverness. But I can't deal with wading through the conspiracy theorists and people who see patterns in clouds over at the forum about him... and I tried a bit, because they have found a new suspect (who's deceased) that might actually solve the case, but I like the forums here at TONMO quite a bit better, and they only give me nightmares about Cthulhu :cthulhu: (and occasionally Neil Diamond)

I think I didn't ever lose my youthful interest in the strange and unusual and creepy, but have learned enough about exaggeration, fabrication, and wishful thinking that I'm jaded, so I can't suspend disbelief about most "mysteries," or forget that Hannibal Lecter is a fictional character, but since we have actual knowledge of weird, interesting, surprising, and sometimes giant cephalopods, and it's entirely possible that I was in line at the grocery store with the Zodiac killer, I can't rationalize them away with skepticism. So there's "Monty pop-psychology 101," I guess. :rolleyes:

And if we act jerky towards him or accuse him of hallucinating, hoaxing etc. what is the chance other people will speak up when they see things out of the ordinary. I was called stupid by my brother for years for being open minded about giant squid reports, guess who was right in the long run. (he claims not to remember this)

I would point this out as an example of the sort of discussion I like to see with respect to reports of weird sea creatures:

http://www.tonmo.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9379

although in that case there was photographic evidence to go along with it.

At the other extreme is this thread:

http://www.tonmo.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8938

where the proposal is pretty clearly kooky. Ideally, I'm hoping this thread can be more like the former than the latter, although I'm afraid the mundane rather than romantically-cryptozoological explanations will continue to make the most sense to me...

And if we act jerky towards him or accuse him of hallucinating, hoaxing etc. what is the chance other people will speak up when they see things out of the ordinary.
esquid, I completely agree. I definitely have no intents of disparaging Tim at all (or anyone else for that matter) -- I'm just observing that it seems we've run out of runway, since we lack any evidence. It seems like all the available information on this topic has been shared, and now it's just boiled down to "well, do you believe, or don't you?" -- and the answer from most people seems to be that they don't, and I think that's OK.

Monty, the other thread you reference is a much better thread for the exact reason that there's fascinating photographic evidence to go along with the theory. Here, we have nothing but a claim and description (albeit very detailed), so we're all at the mercy of the author's "filter," if you will. In that regard I don't think we can compare the two threads.

From what I skimmed (and I may have missed something), there is nothing wrong with this thread other than the fact that it seems to be spent at this point.

no, I just meant that it is good to see people staying civil when it was getting to the point of deadlock. I think you are right in that this topic has run its course and more importantly there is activity on the squidcam!!

Monty, you shouldn't be embarrassed about being into the Zodiac killer, I've got two shelves of books on him and other serial killers. Although I've always had a feeling that someone else sent the letters, or at least some of them.

no, I just meant that it is good to see people staying civil when it was getting to the point of deadlock. I think you are right in that this topic has run its course and more importantly there is activity on the squidcam!!

Monty, you shouldn't be embarrassed about being into the Zodiac killer, I've got two shelves of books on him and other serial killers. Although I've always had a feeling that someone else sent the letters, or at least some of them.

Not to digress from the topic TOO much, but I also have to
admit a fascination with Zodiac AND David "Son of Sam"
Burkowicz (sp?). Something about the serial killer who
taunts the authorities with cryptograms and what not is,
well, fascinating. . . . :twisted:

Vince

Although anyone can edit on wikipedia, AFAIK only moderators or 1337 Haxxors can change the dates or contents of the edit history. But Tim seems genuine to me, just so attached to the (what's bigger than colossal) gargantuan, immense squid theory that he comes across frustrated and defensive.

Maybe it's a tie-in to Cloverfield??? "It's alive. And it's huge."
:wink:

By-the-way, I must admit I skimmed over the bit about
the fishing net. How big to those things get, anyway?
Aren't some literally hundreds of feet long? Are they "reeled
in" like a fishing line? If so, could. . . wait, I think you guys
have already gone this route, huh?

Anyway, personally I would LOVE for there to be something
so massively, well, HUGE down there that it would make
a blue whale look like a minnow by comparison. I believe that
it's possible. Granted, I don't know sh*t about marine
biology--I'll be the first to admit that. But who's to say
that something truly titanic doesn't exist in the trenches
somewhere???

:sink:

Anyway, I want to say that my intent was not[I] to
ridicule the original poster. However, I've been on so many
cryptozoology sites and newsgroups, that I can't help but
be skeptical. (For example, [I]depite the fact that the
person who staged the infamous Bluff Creek sasquatch
film back in--what? 1968?--admitted a few years ago
that it was a hoax, there are still those out there who
say that the film still shows a genuine sasquatch, and that
the person is lying about his admitting it to be a hoax.)

I digress.

But anyway, I would love for this to be true. But I don't
believe a word of it. But then, I wouldn't swear on a stack
of Bibles that it's a hoax or misperception, either. I guess
that's what a true skeptic is, huh?

Vince

I take your point, and I agree that I appear to have made my mind up what it was which appears not very open minded of me but this was based on the opinion of some leading marine biologists in Europe - thus I am attempting to log my description on this site. It was Steves publicity of his work with the Collosal Squid (the photo's) that inspired me to come forward and talk to the Europeans as I thought I recognised certain characteristics in common with the thing I had seen off Portugal. I have sat on my hands on this for the past 14 years and I should have reported this to the coast guard back in 1994. As I know so little about marine life forms I am probably not capable of contributing any more than logging the description and should restrict myself to that, but the squid is such an intriguing animal - so I am curious as to what we know about it and what experts would consider as possible. Prior to coming on Tonmo I have put this description to some of the leading European marine biologists and they are puzzled. They were fairly adamant that it did not sound like a whale and thought it had some of the features of a squid. As I have said with my limited knowledge in this area this is a logging exersise to try and record somewhere an accurate description of what I saw in case someone has seen similar. As a sailor of small yachts I would really rather not have seen this large/object/ animal as at the time it was very intimidating and it has subsequently upset my previous perspective of the sea and what lives in it - I was in the wrong place at the wrong time. I would dearly like someone to prove that this was a figment of my imagination but at present my memory is vivid and I can rerun the 'video' in my mind of what happened. I would like to think that I have made the right moves in bringing this to peoples attention but would now like to slip back into anonymity into the engineering world as I probably have contributed as much as I can and work pressure is building up. I will keep in touch with the Tonmo site and look out for any new developments but meantime I will have to concentrate on things 'engineering'.

PS I forgot to mention I am writing an article for the yachting magazine 'Practical Boat Owner' under the 'lessons learn't' section which will contain a description of the delivery trip and the 'encounter'. Dick Everett, the Deputy Editor will be involved and an illustration will be created which should accurately portray what I have seen. I hope this article will be of interest, especially the illustrations, and this will probably be as far as we can all go with this one - I am feeling a little 'burnt out' with it and need to turn my attention to other things.

I hope this article will be of interest, especially the illustrations
Definitely -- that will be of high interest to all of us here. Thanks Tim for your tireless descriptions of your encounter.

PS I forgot to mention I am writing an article for the yachting magazine 'Practical Boat Owner' under the 'lessons learn't' section which will contain a description of the delivery trip and the 'encounter'. Dick Everett, the Deputy Editor will be involved and an illustration will be created which should accurately portray what I have seen. I hope this article will be of interest, especially the illustrations, and this will probably be as far as we can all go with this one - I am feeling a little 'burnt out' with it and need to turn my attention to other things.


That would be really cool! 8-) Definitely share that with
the group!

Vince