Ahhhhh, but we can hypothesise quite a lot, my good man (from a dead specimen). I've had many an interesting discussion with a dead squid in a jar.

The arm formula is also rather handy; there are cranchiids that suspend themself in the water column with their arms oriented down, and there are those that do so with their arms oriented up. Arm formula (I>II=III>IV) [dorsal, dorso-lateral, ventro-lateral and ventral] is most likely associated with 'arms up', but IV>II=III>I is likely associated with arms down. Both orientations are not uncommon amongst cranchiids. Then you've got the relative position of the hooks in the central portions of the arms, in Mesonychoteuthis at least (not other cranchiids), and in order for these to be positioned at comparable levels when the arms were held together would require the arms to be in the upright position.

I've been looking at a number of juveniles these past few days (Mesonychoteuthis), and all also have the eyes clearly oriented forwards. Unfortunately the position of the arms in these preserved specimen is neither up nor down, but straight ahead; this is, without any doubt, a post-mortem artefact associatd with the curator fixing them in a relaxed state, orienting the arms along the antero-posterior axis (because this is what they would have expected).

We're fortunate in that Mesonychoteuthis has secondary modification of the arms (hooks), because without this it would have been less apparent how the animal oriented itself in the water column. With it I am quite comfortable saying that the arms would normally be in the 'up' position, like you said.

Oh, indeed dead squid do tell tales... The point is that we know so little that we HAVE to make do with conjecture mainly :sad:

Ahhhhh, but we can hypothesise quite a lot, my good man (from a dead specimen). I've had many an interesting discussion with a dead squid in a jar.

With it I am quite comfortable saying that the arms would normally be in the 'up' position, like you said.

It would make more sense that the arms are held angled downwards as the squid swims slowly along a few feet above the bottom so that the tentacles are aimed ready to seize a benthic dwelling toothfish.

That said, maybe the juveniles/subadults differ and hold the arms up - juvenile toothfish (up to ~60 cm) are pelagic, so the squid could attack from below. This would result in a difference in prey selection with mature adults switching to larger benthic prey and thus avoid competition.

Or maybe all this up/down thinking is an artefact of bipedal simian primate logic and Mesonychoteuthis utilises its environment in 3-D.

.... or maybe the squid swims upside down, has the arms oriented down, which is actually up. The more I think about this the more inclined I am to propose yet another alternative - that Mesonychoteuthis is infaunal, building caves in the sea bed, ambushing hapless fish that swim into them seeking refuge. By using its enormous bulk, supremo cranium and gigonotic eXRay capability - a teuthoid version of XRay - it couples laser-death rays and gelato-blottomous pulsoid transmissions through the two cerebro-cranial opticus maxima, blinding, dazzling, confusing and debilitating predator and prey species.

.... or maybe the squid swims upside down, has the arms oriented down, which is actually up. The more I think about this the more inclined I am to propose yet another alternative - that Mesonychoteuthis is infaunal, building caves in the sea bed, ambushing hapless fish that swim into them seeking refuge. By using its enormous bulk, supremo cranium and gigonotic eXRay capability - a teuthoid version of XRay - it couples laser-death rays and gelato-blottomous pulsoid transmissions through the two cerebro-cranial opticus maxima, blinding, dazzling, confusing and debilitating predator and prey species.

I take it that it was a good Pinot noir?

this clearly indicates common ancestry with that coastal starfish (the name of which eludes me at present) which traps triplefins & shrimps underneath itself by tempting them to swim into what appears to be a nice safe cavern

.... gelato-blottomous pulsoid transmissions through the two cerebro-cranial opticus maxima, blinding, dazzling, confusing and debilitating predator and prey species.

Which of course explains the glop under the skin :heee:

I take it that it was a good Pinot noir?

this clearly indicates common ancestry with that coastal starfish (the name of which eludes me at present) which traps triplefins & shrimps underneath itself by tempting them to swim into what appears to be a nice safe cavern

Allostichaster (Stignaster) inflatus the ambush star

That is SO gerry anderson :wink:

Allostichaster (Stignaster) inflatus the ambush star

Jean, Thanks for the picture, I have never seen or heard of these and it look exceptionally interesting - for a species only tank :hmm:

Your side of the world has the most interesting and aggressive creatures!

Jean, Thanks for the picture, I have never seen or heard of these and it look exceptionally interesting - for a species only tank :hmm:

Your side of the world has the most interesting and aggressive creatures!

We keep them in a community tank! Ok mainly small filter feeding anemones, but a few crabs, & snails etc too. It takes them a good week to deal with a prey item. It took the one in the picture about 6 days to finish that snail.

Likening it much to the mighty sarlacc :shock:

That's MY pinot speaking, no doubt, slurredly..... *hickup*

That's MY pinot speaking, no doubt, slurredly..... *hickup*

Ahhh, that is why your reference is inverted!

I didn't even know I had one...

Allostichaster (Stignaster) inflatus the ambush star

:shock:

Is it not Stegnaster; I cannot imagine this being an Allostichaster Jean?

:shock:

Is it not Stegnaster; I cannot imagine this being an Allostichaster Jean?

I'm sure you're right, I just used the name in my echinoderm book!!!!!! But it's a bit out of date.......so Stegnaster it is!

J

:wink:

OK all; here's the air date, 9pm 31 August, at the following link (you'll see a couple of squid docos on this day).

Enjoy (http://dsc.discovery.com/tv-schedules/daily.html?date=20080831.244)(because you'll see it before we ever do!)

Great.... I guess.... Please, tell me what it's like, I haven't a clue whether it'll air in the NL and when....

I've marked my calendar - so Steve, I assume we'll get to see you in this episode - I hope.

Nancy

I've clicked the remind me button. Hope it works. I'd better mark my calendar too.

I've marked my calendar - so Steve, I assume we'll get to see you in this episode - I hope.

Nancy
That's a safe bet Nancy. I hope I don't disappoint!

That's a safe bet Nancy. I hope I don't disappoint!

Don't worry Steve, our standards aren't that high. :sagrin:

:wink:

Here's an interesting twist (http://www.stuff.co.nz/4663891a7693.html)

Wuss, huh? Did you read the comments? Your Wild Boyz appearance was cited. That is destined to stick with you forever. Aren't you glad?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbwxLHHXxKo

Oh dear. A syndicated story is out with so many errors in it. Time to run and hide, because I don't want anything with 49cm (READ 49 mm lower rostral length) beaks chasing me about!

I notice you didn't post the story or the link. It must be really bad!

http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5hf6j0ho0AzZZsxjy0-vG9gdUjLqQ

"The New Zealand squid's lower beak measures around 40 centimetres across, while other beaks have been found -- usually in the stomach of predator sperm whales -- measuring up to 49 centimetres."

Here's a relatively accurate (http://www.odt.co.nz/news/national/18978/more-secrets-colossal-squid-revealed) story; finally!

Yay! With the brooding blob theory once more committed to cyberspace :wink:

It does me proud to see the brooding blob theory rise again.

Clem

Here's a relatively accurate (http://www.odt.co.nz/news/national/18978/more-secrets-colossal-squid-revealed) story; finally!

I could make a clever comment about this "relatively accurate" story being in the OTAGO daily times............but I won't :grin:

measuring up to 49 centimetres."

That would be over one and one half feet!

Oh great! Got past being a giant gelatinous blob several hundred posts ago, and now will become one again in a hundred or so posts!:sad::mesonych:

And I'll be wearing flares and have sideburns just in time for the nth hundred post.

I'm not responsible for rehashing the same old ... the press is a funny beast.

Oh great! Got past being a giant gelatinous blob several hundred posts ago, and now will become one again in a hundred or so posts!:sad::mesonych:
No.... Not again.... Please... pleaheahease.... the darkness... the cold... I can't go back there..... Somebody DO something?!

That would be over one and one half feet!

Well, MonsterQuest seemed to think Dale & Scott would find an octopus with a beak on that scale. But they didn't. Probably because it sneakily avoided their cameras, that stealthy Octopus Megalomaniac or whatever they called it...

Maybe I should've posted this one (http://www.tonmo.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14315)over here?

You just can't please everyone all of the time! Colossal Squid is a T-rex, and I get criticised. Now Colossal Squid is a lethargic brooder (late in life) and I get criticised! From this day on the Colossal Squid is just a normal squid, with no interesting character/state (and I'm going to work on polychaete worms)! Everything said recently was said immediately after the colossal defrost; if you go to the following link (http://www.careers.govt.nz/default.aspx?id0=1050103&id1=J80079&id2=3E930577-FF37-456A-A750-3C945D2298E5) and click on the link at the bottom of it (radio interview; tired Steve) you'll hear it all over again.

Perfect food for a Colossal Squid, Antarctic Toothfish, especially if an ambush predator. The Toothfish is no tuna (http://journals.cambridge.org/download.php?file=%2FANS%2FANS14_01%2FS0 954102002000536a.pdf&code=ea5a0e819f69c2834786ecfec8f757c2) (click the link)!

Dude, if a Polychaete Worm and a Colossal Squid got into a smackdown fight over a Toothfish, who would win?

Someone should make a "documentary!"

From this day on the Colossal Squid is just a normal squid, with no interesting character/state!

I hereby criticize you.

Why thank you cherub. You'd better practice your arm wrestling!

Tonmocon III! :smile:

Edit: Oh My Elder God! If I click "speak" American English, it proclaims "TONMOCON Iä! Iä! Iä!"

:shock: :cthulhu:

Why thank you cherub. You'd better practice your arm wrestling!

Am I going to have to bodyslam bounce you off 3 beds this time?

:grin:

Am I going to have to bodyslam bounce you off 3 beds this time?
You and whose army? I'll have a lethargic giant gelatinous blobby Colossal Squid under my arm, and another 4 in file behind me!

You never Know Steve, those giant gelatinous blobby Colossal Squid may just be helping to body slam you! :sagrin: And better the beds than the floor....

As you know all too well, Steve, Colossal's fins regularly detach themselves from their blobby moribund mantles to independantly become voracious predators; be sure to hedge your bets a little, when wishing to take on the Mountain of a Man that is White Kiboko....

Honestly, I leave you lot alone for a few weeks and look what happens. :roll: Everyone has obviously forgotten that both Meso and Archi pale in comparison with the mighty onychoteuthids, whose deceptively 'normal' squid appearance hides their infamous Razor Hooks of Death. Sheesh.

When you leave us we become, disoriented :bugout:, distressed :cry:, discombobulated :bonk:, disturbed::scream::, and (some of us) demonic.:sagrin:
Don't go away again.

I see we are dazed and confused as usual? Anyone no of a good Indian takeaway in Christchurch? I seem to be quite popular down there :) And its that much closer to the Ross Sea than Wellington

Anyone no of a good Indian takeaway in Christchurch?

Please translate to American. Is an Indian takeaway the same as an Indian take out restaraunt, ie you can take the food home eat? :smile:

Please translate to American. Is an Indian takeaway the same as an Indian take out restaraunt, ie you can take the food home eat? :smile:

The Kiwis can use polarized language in their signaling so that they can communicate with conspecifics without predators observing. I understand their pheromone systems are also very complex. The social behavior and communication of these creatures certainly offers opportunities for further study. Perhaps over a beer.

are we far enough off-topic yet?

The Kiwis can use polarized language in their signaling so that they can communicate with conspecifics without predators observing.

Ahhh, I thought is was simply covegent language evolution and did not understand the need for covert protection whilst communicating.

This thread had a topic?

Yes, it had...

It's only coz I love you guys that I don't delete this entire thread!

Yes, take away = carry out.

Speaking of the strange habits of people from away, do kiwis play cricket? The prof in charge of my lab has decided that he wants us to play a match against the zebra fish lab (small fish vs big fish). Is there anything I should know before participating in this strange ritual?

erin

Fear the Blackcaps....

So is a Meso. still threatening as long as it has a cricket bat?

Are Cricket players gelatinous blobs? :sink:

I guess I'll find out at the practice/"wait, so you don't swing it like a baseball bat" meeting next week.

So is a Meso. still threatening as long as it has a cricket bat?

With tentacle clubs like that, it doesn't need one...

Oh wait, I'll need to revision, it uses it's clubs to gently stroke dead toothfish on the ocean floor at 900 meters. Wait a minute, there is no ocean floor at 900 meters...

Now what?!

Steve?

You should be aware that it is possible to play cricket for FIVE DAYS and still be TIED AT THE END. Enough said!

oh no, don't worry, the first thing I asked was how many days long the test was going to be. Anyway, the fish need to be fed four times a day, so we have a limited amount of time to play.

I this the point where I warn you about having a maiden bowled to you, or are you brave enough to play straight? Ops Imay have said to much.....

You speak in riddles, my friend.....

Cricket? Nobody understands cricket. You got to know what a crumpet is to understand cricket.

Now what?!

We wait ... hopefully this cricket business will end and we'll be back on topic. Otherwise I'll have to insist that all of you become supporters (http://www.tonmo.com/store/subscribe.php)so that you may post away to your hearts content in endless 'pointless threads'

uhhh, does that mean Mark has to become a supporter?

:wink:

Everyone should!

But of course - I was just pointing out that all the other hijackers were either staff or supporters :sagrin:

Sorry, DoShea. Cricket talk will move.

How big were the colossal larvae?

About 1/1750th of a double-decker bus. :wink:

Ed.: :bus: :bus: :bus:

About 1/1750th of a double-decker bus. :wink:

How come no one uses the smiley I made for these sorts of discussions :bus: :boohoo:

Any one know international airing of the documentaries?

I pleadge that I will become a supporter as soon as someone in or near NZ realises that I am free, to be paid a high salary, for little imput....

And I promise no more Cricket or of topic posts SOS

M

I posted this but cannot find it now...:oops:
In the vid they talked about the statoliths for reference to age according to annual growth. Was the age of the specimen determined? I didnot catch it if it was. Reason I ask was the stark contrast in TL relative to prediction.

Correct me if I missed something but I don't think they took the statolith from the large one since it appeared to be major dissection when Ku took it out of the damaged squid and this one was destined for display.

Correct me if I missed something but I don't think they took the statolith from the large one since it appeared to be major dissection when Ku took it out of the damaged squid and this one was destined for display.



Ah. So was it determined that this animal was fully mature?

It had eggs. He seems to think they brood them inside the mantle and the eggs were not very mature from what I saw (and may not have been fertilized yet - I don't recall if Steve ever pronounced them fertilize or not). Assuming they only breed once (big assumption) then she would have been close, depending upon how long the eggs took to mature.

I posted this but cannot find it now...:oops:
In the vid they talked about the statoliths for reference to age according to annual growth. Was the age of the specimen determined? I didnot catch it if it was. Reason I ask was the stark contrast in TL relative to prediction.


D is correct (of course :wink:): we did not collect a statolith from the large specimen, Ku collected one from the Architeuthis specimen we also looked into to illustrate the great morphological differences between the species. With regards to total length, it would not come as a surprise to me if Mesonychoteuthis follows Teuthowenia to a degree, the latter species which' females' tentacles completely atrophy towards maturity. There is too little data to make a proper regression curve, but the indication is at least there in the current material.

D is correct. well, close, I remembered Ku removing the tiny shell remenant but not from which squid. :oops:

the latter species which' females' tentacles completely atrophy towards maturity. There is too little data to make a proper regression curve, but the indication is at least there in the current material.

OB, does this suggest that females stop eating like a brooding octopus? That would kind of kill the idea that the female octo doesn't eat because food might contaminate the eggs (or has that theory been dropped already?).

Thank you for the info. I stumbled on the show during a get together. It really brought me back onto Tonmo, fascinating stuff!

OB, does this suggest that females stop eating like a brooding octopus? That would kind of kill the idea that the female octo doesn't eat because food might contaminate the eggs (or has that theory been dropped already?).

Well, first and foremost, the atrophy thesis needs to be supported by more real life datapoints, but if it were to hold up to further scrutiny, it might also indicate a change of diet, not so much a stop eating altogether attitude. If Steve is right (ho-hum!), mature blobby females might not require active predation to meet their protein requirements.

.... I don't think they took the statolith from the large one since it appeared to be major dissection when Ku took it out of the damaged squid and this one was destined for display.

The statoliths were not removed from the larger specimen. The statoliths of the smaller specimen are frozen in my freezer, next to the steak, frozen peas, and ~ 100kg of Architeuthis gonads.:smile:

I don't recall if Steve ever pronounced them fertilize or not
Very immature D; a long way from fertilisation (and no spermatophores in the mantle).

If Steve is right (ho-hum!), mature blobby females might not require active predation to meet their protein requirements.
:smoke:

... well, an Antarctic toothfish might usually swim 0.2m its body length a second, and can probably manage speeds of 3x body length per second for short bursts (to escape predation). We're not talking tuna here, so there's no need to think of Mesonychoteuthis as being a major, active predator. It feeds alright, but an Antarctic toothfish might sustain it for several days at least .... just think of a giant blob with muscular arms and blobby mantle making do with what it stumbles upon, and not letting go of it.

Call me Mesonychoteuthis :wink:

:roflmao: Me too!

Would the atrophy "idea" explain why, to my eye at least the 2003 specimen has much larger arms and hooks?

The statoliths of the smaller specimen are frozen in my freezer, next to the steak, frozen peas, and ~ 100kg of Architeuthis gonads.:smile:

:yuck: I hope you pay attention when pulling out dinner and that things are wrapped well.

That would kind of kill the idea that the female octo doesn't eat because food might contaminate the eggs (or has that theory been dropped already?).

Hmm, I don't think I've come across this theory before (did I miss it somewhere else?), and it seems like an odd one... the food is contained within the digestive tract, so I'm not sure where the contamination would occur. The theories more often suggested (in squid at least) are that a) the gonads take up so much room in the mantle that there's no room for food in the stomach/caeca; b) the squid focuses all its energy on gonad & egg production and simply stops feeding; and/or the muscle tissues begin degenerating as the eggs mature, so that the animal is perhaps physically unable to pursue food anymore. Or any combination of the above. :smile:

The statoliths were not removed from the larger specimen. The statoliths of the smaller specimen are frozen in my freezer, next to the steak, frozen peas, and ~ 100kg of Architeuthis gonads.:smile:

Do you have them marked with a "use by date"?

:yuck: I hope you pay attention when pulling out dinner and that things are wrapped well.

Well, I guess I am safe if I am ever invited to dinner. I should be able to tell the difference between squid parts and steak and I DON'T eat peas :razz:

People eat Rocky Mountain Oysters....I think guys think it makes them more macho. If you think about the symbolism, the giant squid oysters should be even more..... oh, never mind.

:archi:

Hmm, I don't think I've come across this theory before (did I miss it somewhere else?), and it seems like an odd one... the food is contained within the digestive tract, so I'm not sure where the contamination would occur. The theories more often suggested (in squid at least) are that a) the gonads take up so much room in the mantle that there's no room for food in the stomach/caeca; b) the squid focuses all its energy on gonad & egg production and simply stops feeding; and/or the muscle tissues begin degenerating as the eggs mature, so that the animal is perhaps physically unable to pursue food anymore. Or any combination of the above. :smile:

I recently read or heard the contamination idea (a couple of times but again within the last couple of days but I can't find the clip) and don't know if there was any science behind where the idea originated but my take-away impression was to think it was talking about loose bits of food contaminating the den. I was inclined to discount it but I have only grown out Mercs from one female and I was able to get both my females (mother and daughter) to eat through out the incubation so none of the theories fit my experience. I did find that, as the eggs were closer to hatching, only dead food would be accepted.

I did find that, as the eggs were closer to hatching, only dead food would be accepted.

This is very interesting!

Ahh, gotcha, contamination of the eggs in the den, not while still inside the body. Makes much more sense. :smile:

Originally Posted by dwhatley
I did find that, as the eggs were closer to hatching, only dead food would be accepted

This is very interesting!

That is why I was wondering about the atrophy in the squid tentacles. My original WC merc would eat live if I attached it to a tube and bothered her with it, then she started to refuse and I froze the crabs and offered them dead. Later she started pushing them away but would take dead shrimp directly from my fingers and not the wiggling air line. Her daughter refused the live sooner but would take hand fed shrimp almost daily (both pooped regularly so I know they were actually eating the shrimp).

I'm still not clear on a link between a mature female and tentacle atrophy. Why would a change in diet cause atrophy?

My question was the other way around, could be atrophy be caused by the change in eating style?

I think the theory is that if the animals stop hunting/using the tentacles, they atrophy. This is also observed in mature males in some species.