Mega-Squid! (click here) (http://www.pref.kyoto.jp/kaiyo/2-topicnews/news/2002/02-02-01/mega-squid/mega-squid-01.html)

Running that term through image-search turned up a series (http://www.pref.kyoto.jp/kaiyo/2-topicnews/news/2002/02-02-01/mega-squid/mega-squid-02.html) of terrific photos of a very large squid dying on the coast of Japan. The animal lolls in a deep tidal pool, and a line has been fastened to it. The squid appears to have been alive when photographed, as the arms show quite a lot of movement between the individual frames, with one appendage appearing to slap atop one of the rocks ringing the pool. The URL provides the only English-language information on the pages, suggesting that the stranding took place in the Kyoto area, in February of 2002. Any TONMO'ers with Japanese reading ability, please take a crack at translating the text accompanying the photos.

Some squid.

:heee:

Clem

It is Architeuthis Clem; I'm surprised the images are online .... there are more, and they're sensational, but they're not images that a doco company could use, as some of them are pretty barbaric (the ropes). The specimen is now preserved in Japan.

I first saw these last year, in addition to another quite stunning pic ... and I'll say no more. I'm glad that the images are finally online, as it is THE FIRST LIVE ARCHITEUTHIS EVER PHOTOGRAPHED!!!

The images were used to try and secure funds to get a submersible working trenches off Japan, but the bid to secure funds was not successful. It is a shame really.

There's more that can be added to this story.

!

Seeing that living eye is incredible!

Scroll down on that page, and click on the blue hypertext characters to access SEVERAL MORE photos!

Holy...

All right, now that I'm no longer lying passed out on the floor, I should be able to respond to this news with more than an emphatic exclamation point.

I'm having to adjust my mental image of Architeuthis on the fly, as it were. The intact, living eye is incredible to see, and not what I expected; I'd have expected to see a larger orbit of generally round configuration, not an ellipse. In fact, it almost looks as if the animal has a sort of lid structure, but I'm ignorant of the particulars of Architeuthis ocular musculature.

Since we're all used to photgraphs of deflated, flaccid giants, the apparent robustness of this animal is startling, as is its apparent willingness (and ability) to extend appendages above the surface and onto the rocks. The sequence of photgraphs also shows what looks like color-shifting on the surfaces still bearing an intact skin integument, especially along the arms. Was it "flashing" its chromatophores?

Too many questions and not enough background information right now, so I'll just go back and stare for awhile. What an amzing thing.

Clem

The translation of the site from Japanese to English, according to babelfish.altavista.com:

The enormous squid it appears! !

When in the Goshiki beach seashore of Amino Cho, overcoat length approximately 2m, the arm is extended on January 15th, the enormous squid which reaches to also 4m was captured.

At the point where inquires to Mr. Koutarou Tsuchiya of the Tokyo University of Fisheries, it was found that it is 1 kind of ƒ_ƒCƒIƒEƒCƒJ.

ƒ_ƒCƒIƒEƒCƒJ large number is discovered from midst of the stomach of the sperm whale, but as for the squid which this time is captured the arm to be thick the possibility of being new species is high in comparison with those, so is.

As for the specimen in a complete way, those which even in the world nearly 30 years ago are collected in Tottori prefecture just is 1 individual.

Sending to the National Science Museum as a valuable specimen, it is the schedule which is investigated.

Offering the people and the photograph of the local end which cooperation it receives to capture conveyance, and the like gratitude says in Chief Yoshino ward chief and Nakagawa of the Amino town hall agriculture and forestry marine products section whom it receives.

Method of being which more looked at the photograph clickingthis!
And then, on the second page:
Spitting ƒXƒ~, still, living it probably will do, is.

In spite even in the night, everyone of local end came to multitude sight-seeing.

While being connected to one late quay, it died. Discharge in order to keep with the refrigerator.
It is sent by the university, is investigated.

It returns to the front page

Wow, the smell must have been pretty bad. Amonical squid breaking the surface. Blech!

Just plain wow. It's good to see this reminder that there is more going on behind the scenes in research than we see...

rusty

NO FRIGGIN WAY!!!

These are REAL?!?! WAAAAAAHOOO!!!!!!

AMAZAING!

Steve, any thoughts?!?!?

John

Sweet cow of Moscow!!

Okay... breathe, John... *sigh*

First Question: The Eye.... was it reflecting light? Do they have a tapetum lucidum like certain mammals? .... Wow....

I can't believe this... Wow....

I can't even think of a second question....

John

Thoughts? Many.

1) I wish I had been there.
2) I wish Dr Tsunemi Kubodera had been successful in securing funds to get a submersible deployed in the area where this brute was caught.
3) I wish I had been there.
4) I'm happy that these images are now online!!
5) I wish I had been there.

Incredible pictures. I can hardly believe I am looking at them.

I wonder how this animal was caught? Was it a fishing boat crew who caught it and towed the poor thing back to harbour? I don’t suppose we will ever know the details of the exact circumstances.

I agree the eye is not how I would have expected it to appear, somewhat smaller, and the arms have a somewhat flatter cross- section. Is that a keel on the third arm? It also seems that the outer skin on the mantle is peeling away; particularly noticable in the area around the fins. I wonder if that is damage caused by the rope, or is ‘moulting’ of the outer surface of the skin a normal feature?

Clem, I’m going to buy you a drink one day for this discovery!

.... details are sketchy, but from what I understand the specimen was 'noosed' at sea (it was floating on the surface), then hauled back to land; it's in a big rockpool. There is no video (I asked last year; just these stills). The loss of skin could be attributed to capture treatment.

The eye is sitting within a socket in the head; note the anterior sinus .... they're not supposed to have this ... it's always lost in the frozen specimens (very onychoteuthid-like in appearance). The socket into which the eye fits is muscular, so what it is doing here is constricting, obscuring much of the eye.

ps, yes, that's a keel
pps, it's probably worthy of its own thread, don't you think??
ppps, the next sensational find is likely to be a live ammonite!

Re: your PPS.... done!

That's some picture. I've written a kind note to the Webmaster to see if we can't have the photo hosted here on TONMO.com, and to see if there's any further info that can be lent.

-- tonmo

.
ppps, the next sensational find is likely to be a live ammonite!

Hey, you are not sitting on another batch of secret photos, by any chance? :D

Clem get to work! You never know what the good Doctor is hiding!

I wish I had been there.

Me too!

J

Did someone say LIVE AMMONITE?

That Eye is spooky, why is it yellow? I'm going to have nightmares about a large bright yellow black & white eye. Those fishermen should have run into a school of those things, they would have pulled the boat under.

Did I hear LIVE AMMONITE? :ammonite:

...overcoat length approximately 2m, the arm is extended on January 15th, the enormous squid which reaches to also 4m was captured.
Perhaps "overcoat" is Babelfish's attempt at translating "mantle," as the animal appears longer than 2m overall. 4m looks about right for an overall length.

ƒ_ƒCƒIƒEƒCƒJ large number is discovered from midst of the stomach of the sperm whale, but as for the squid which this time is captured the arm to be thick the possibility of being new species is high in comparison with those, so is.
This might refer to the 3rd arm with its keel. The 4th arm pair is visible in the photos in their "zipped" configuration, beneath the animal and conforming to the surface of the rocks on the bottom of the pool; you can just make out the slightly spread tips of the arm pair on a patch of green seaweed. (Click here for frame.) (http://www.pref.kyoto.jp/kaiyo/2-topicnews/news/2002/02-02-01/mega-squid/mega-squid01.jpg) In another frame, it appears that the squid has cocked its tentacular clubs, one to either side of the ventral surface of the mantle, giving the animal a somewhat comical "Spock" look. (Click here for frame.) (http://www.pref.kyoto.jp/kaiyo/2-topicnews/news/2002/02-02-01/mega-squid/mega-squid08.jpg)

Spitting ƒXƒ~, still, living it probably will do, is.
Inking?

With all the onlookers present, you'd think someone would have brought their camcorder with them.

:heee:

Clem

Why the **** did it take Clem (bless him) doing an image search to reveal this? Would we have ever heard of this if he hadn't?

I remember when you mentioned this last year Steve. Glad to see that the pics were released eventually.

So can we asumse that the squid was at the surface dying when it got snared?

Fantastic! I was just saying the other day (yesterday!) that I was "waiting for the day someone photographs a living archy".

Let us know if anybody manages to get some hi-res versions of these!

So, we know that the eye looks different on the live squid compared to dead... I am waiting to see if the feeding tentacles are held up rather than trailing!

Holy ceph! Wow!

OH MY GOD!

The last time I posted on here was almost 2 years ago....but this image has got me so excited I can't stay quiet. That photo is UNBELIEVABLE!

I've been waiting to see something like that my entire life. I'm kinda of confused as to why there wasn't major news about this. Its big news when a dead one washes up....I figure this would've made headlines all over the world....with or without the rope attached to it.

Steve can you shed any light on this for us? Also, why the hush hush about the rest of the photos? I would love to see them. Sorry not trying to be brash...I'm just so excited its hard to contain it. Thanks so much for the photos!!!

P.S...Steve, been a big fan of yours for a long time.

Hey, Bennett! Welcome back! You've got some catching up to do, my friend... :mrgreen:

OMFG, that is unbelivable, are you guy's sure it is real??
...OMFG look at the guy holding the flashlight--compare it's size to the archi, o' man that's a HUGE SQUID!!! :notworth: :notworth: :D

http://www.pref.kyoto.jp/kaiyo/2-topicnews/news/2002/02-02-01/mega-squid/mega-squid-02.html
more piccies. :D

Hey tonmo! I never really went away...my old job said they were monitoring our internet surfing so I go out of habit posting. But I never stopped reading! This has become quite the site!

good lord!!! :shock: :!: look at its eye!!! that is the most amazing thing i have ever seen!!! the eye is smaller than i expected, and why is it yellow?
thank you clem!!! :notworth: :notworth: :notworth: :notworth: :D :) :P :mrgreen: :rainbow: :yinyang: :cyclops: :heee: :talker: :thumbsup: :goldfish: :tomato: :sun: :police: :read: :coffee:
:squid: :meso: :belemnit: :nautiloi:

the eye is smaller than i expected, and why is it yellow?

Interesting point. Is this a reflection of the rear of the retina, similar to the 'red eye' effect so common with flash photography, or is there a biological explanation?

Whenever I've had an Architeuthis lens it has been transluscent/colourless, so I think the yellow colour is an artefact of the flash. The actual eye often has a pink/golden sheen, so the colour of the lens could have something to do with reflection from the eye itself.

Not sure.

.... wish I had been there!

I suspect that the eyes on dead archi's are swelled up and inflamed,
note: the size of a archi that is alive.
Very peculiar, I wonder if this is the same archi:
http://www.f2.dion.ne.jp/~nkd25/graph/squid_agent.jpg
Image from http://www.f2.dion.ne.jp/~nkd25/html/kraken.html

HOLY MESONYCHOTEUTHIDS!!!!!! That's AMAZING. I can't believe it.... The eye is really unusual. Don't know what that has to do with it, but who gives a squid?

Great picture. Good work, o.v.

POSSIBLE other photo of the specimen here (scroll down), though as my Japanese is somewhat lacking I cannot say for sure:

http://www.wingz.co.jp/ceto/ceto12/#index_3

Also:

PLEASE CHECK THIS OUT:

I am not sure what form of squid is visible here drifting in the water but I think this will be of extreme interest:
http://homepage1.nifty.com/ozok/ika-story2.htm

When reading the subject heading I was thinking....nah this can't be real....but..but..WOW! :bonk:

I suspect that the eyes on dead archi's are swelled up and inflamed,
note: the size of a archi that is alive.
Very peculiar, I wonder if this is the same archi:
http://www.f2.dion.ne.jp/~nkd25/graph/squid_agent.jpg
Image from http://www.f2.dion.ne.jp/~nkd25/html/kraken.html

You guys are surprising me no end!!! That Architeuthis is actually the largest I've ever had, at ML 2.25 metres (when fresh). It is a specimen that I sent to the National Science Museum, Taichung, Taiwan, some 4 or 5 years ago now (one of the best trips I've ever had) - a specimen sent to a good friend, Prof Chung-Cheng Lu (you'll see him also on one of the docos).

I had only seen one other, poor-quality image of it. The museum itself is probably one of the best museums in the world - it rivals anything in the USA - truly sensational, and the people there were fantastic. It was during this trip that Lu showed me the only known specimen of a new deep-sea cirrate (a specimen of something we've since described as Luteuthis shuishi (the genus named after Lu)). I can't wait to go back!
Cheers
O

PLEASE CHECK THIS OUT:

I am not sure what form of squid is visible here drifting in the water but I think this will be of extreme interest:

http://homepage1.nifty.com/ozok/ika-story2.htm

I've just put the text above the photo of the squid being fed from the boat through Babelfish and this was the result:

"ƒ_ƒCƒIƒEƒCƒJ; Ghost squid of knowing deep sea. It is famous even with confrontation with the sperm whale. As for the mode of life it is not elucidated still excessively. As for this adult upper tier as for length to ahead the torso long 2m foot approximately the 6m as for those of the lower position when going around the torso long 2m you insert to the foot more largely than that excessively, it is thought as the thing which exceeds the 8m with presumption."

This would seem to indicate we could could be looking at a second photo of a live Architeuthis . I'm not sure, I think it could be Moroteuthis. Experts please help! What do you think?

Phil if it were to be a archi my best bet would be that it is a juvenile, wouldn't you agree steve?

Phil, all, the first image (in the tank) is definitely Architeuthis, but I don't think this is the same specimen that you saw in the earlier 'mega-squid' photographs (something Tsunemi Kubodera said last year ... I think that specimen has been on display for quite a few years; I don't recall the name of the museum in Japan that it is on display).

The second suite of images are rather interesting.
The first 2 images are of Thysanoteuthis rhombus

The next two, some ommastrephid (possibly Ommastrephes, but don't quote me!!!)

The next two, another ommastrephid (possibly Eucleoteuthis luminosa)

The next two, in the water, something weird but non-architeuthid (the head is far narrower than the mantle) - it is possibly a spent female Moroteuthis, but I'd like to have a closer look at it.

The next two images have me scratching my head; they're very interesting, and really Architeuthis cannot be discounted - but I'd like to see the specimen. How many rows of suckers can people see on the arms? Four?? Difficult - could be a mega-gonatid squid; it doesn't look like an onychoteuthid to me (as in not Moroteuthis robusta).

The final image is most likely that of Grimalditeuthis

Thankyou for the quick response, Steve.

Looks like two rows of suckers to me, though it is difficult to say for sure. Is that a keel visible on one the upper arms in the top photo again?

If anyone cannot download the images of the squid in question, please click below. Especially if you are good at image enhancement!

http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/download.php?id=934

this is the biggest thing thats happened to mollusks since... when? :grad:

...The eye is sitting within a socket in the head; note the anterior sinus .... they're not supposed to have this ... it's always lost in the frozen specimens (very onychoteuthid-like in appearance).
Steve,

What's an anterior sinus?

:roll:

Clem

It looks like this.

http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/download.php?id=935

Looks like two rows of suckers to me, though it is difficult to say for sure. Is that a keel visible on one the upper arms in the top photo again?

I see two rows of suckers on the arms. In the lower picture, The lower arm near the head is turned back, and seems to clearly show two rows of suckers turned up. This picture was tough to enhance, it was not of great resolution to start with. ;)

It also appears, at least in the top picture, that the tentacles are cocked back along the length of the mantle. I don't know if this is significant. I don't see a keel, but I'm also not entirely sure what that is. If you mean a raised edge along the length of the arm, I don't see that.

What intrigues me is that it looks to me like this animal is going after something on a line that appears to be a dead squid of some sort. It looks like the dead squid(?) on the line has been torn in two, with the mantle and viscera still on the line, and the head and tentacles loose in the water. In the first picture, it looks like the large red animal has the head and arms of the dead animal in its own arms on the left, while in the second picture, it appears to have the arms and head more cradled in its arms. I could be completely off-base on this, though... it's hard to tell. It may just be water froth churned up that makes it look like the red animal's arms are around something else.

What is particularly interesting is the sharp difference in colour between the dorsal and ventral sides of the animal. The ventral side looks pale, while the dorsal side is vivid red. Could we be seeing some kind of environmental camoflage in action; light side toward the bottom to blend with the surface, red side toward the surface to blend with the dark depths?

I keep saying "the red animal" when I want to scream "ARCHITEUTHIS!!!". :heee: It sure looks like a giant squid to me! These pictures show what appears to be a large and robust animal, not a trick of the light making a much smaller squid appear to be big. The main clue to me is the swivel on that line; it looks like the kind of swivel used on deep-sea fishing gear to connect the leader to the line (the line is above the swivel leading offscreen; the leader has that tapered white egg shaped thing on it and runs into the "bait"). Perhaps this photo was taken by fishermen who snagged something with a trolling line they didn't expect? I'm trying to identify the gear on the line; if it's what I think it is, a floater meant to keep submerged bait from sinking too deep and a deep sea fishing swivel, that is one big G.D. squid.

I forgot to mention: those big swivels, at least ones I've seen and used, are usually about 2-4". So if you figure that swivel is 4" long... you do the math on the animal. :) But it's hard to say for sure, and almost impossible to identify fishing tackle from a picture like that. Could be 4", could be smaller. This page has some pictures of the tackle I'm talking about.

http://www.blueoceantackle.com/rigging_kits.htm

Scroll down to the "barrel snap swivel kit" and "ball bearing snap swivel kit", and compare those to what's visible in the first picture. Those swivels are each about 2-3" long IIRC.

(Edited for accuracy and to correct hyperbole from overenthusiasm and lack of sleep. ;) After fact-checking with my salty ol' pop, those swivels are not as big as I remembered from when I was a lad. The biggest deep sea swivels can be as big as 5", but they would look very distinct. That one in the picture is probably no more than 3", maybe 4".)

That's interesting information about the swivel there, Bald Evil. That's useful as it is the only indicator of scale that we have for this new specimen. I think you are right about about the arms wrapped around the dead squid it is being fed on in the second photograph, I don't think that there is any other item in the water with it. I've attached a photo showing where I interpreted the animal having a keel on its third arm, the axis of orientation seems to indicate, to me anyway, that the arm is the same (the third arm) as the one in the Japanese photo above.

http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/download.php?id=936

I found an email address for some one in the local marine lab who might have more info. about your big squid . kaiyose@mail.pref.kyoto.jp

I do not know what questions to ask so I will leave it up to some one on this board to make an inquiry. I am living in Japan. If I can help in gathering information about this discovery let me know.

Phils,

Welcome to TONMO! You've picked an auspicious moment to introduce yourself to the forum. As you can see, we're scrambling for any bits of information pertaining to the "Kyoto incident" and the photographs taken of a living giant squid, Architeuthis. I think the information we're most interested in relates to the circumstances of the squid's capture and any notes taken about the behavior exhibited by the animal before it expired. If the lab you provided an address for can be of any assistance, we'd appreciate it many times over.

Above all, The man who could probably provide the answers is Dr. Tsunemi Kubodera, a teuthologist whose name can be found attached to numerous cephalopod-related papers, and the recipient of the Architeuthis brought ashore near Goshiki Beach, Amino-cho, Kyoto. Dr. Kubodera maintains a Japanese-language web-site (http://research.kahaku.go.jp/zoology/kaisei/index.html) with, among other things, an impressive online catalogue of squid beaks. I've done a blind crawl through the site and found an image of Doctor Kubodera (http://research.kahaku.go.jp/department/zoology/zoology3/kubodera/image/Daiou1.JPG) alongside what might well be the Architeuthis pictured alive in the link at the top of the thread.

We could easily submit a laundry-list of questions for the man, but he may not be aware that news of a living Architeuthis has caught fire here at TONMO. (He may not be aware of TONMO, period.) Perhaps e-mailing Dr. Kubodera a link to this "Living Architeuthis" thread is in order, as a courtesy. Who knows? If he has any free time (and backlogs of work seem de rigeuer for teuthologists), perhaps he'll drop in one day.

:?:

Clem

PLEASE CHECK THIS OUT:

I am not sure what form of squid is visible here drifting in the water but I think this will be of extreme interest:
http://homepage1.nifty.com/ozok/ika-story2.htm

Phil,

Hmmm. The first thing that occurs to me is that we're looking at two different animals. (I'm referring to the "blue water" and "black water") photographs.) The day-time photograph shows what looks to me like an Ommastrephid squid going after a fish-head. I agree that there is a tentacular club visible next to the mantle, but the manus seems rather too broad and rhomboid in shape to be Architeuthid. The pale shape visible in the mass of tentacles on the left could be a large 3rd arm-keel extending from the midpoint to the distal portion of the arm. The fins appear to be frozen "mid-flap," suggesting that they are muscular enough to be used in propulsion or stabilization. Overall, I'd say the signs point to an Ommastrephid, possibly our old friend (enemy?) Dosidicus.

The "black water" photograph is harder to sort out, since the arms are surging and obscured by bubbles. Bald Evil's observation about the dorsal/ventral color divide is likely on-target, and the animal is probably countershading against the bright illumination emanating from the onboard lights.

Phil, what magic phrase did you use to find these photographs?

:heee:

Clem

It certainly seems more in character for dosidicus to be going after a baited line than for architeuthis. :/ And I am inclined to agree with Clem that the two photos are likely to be different animals; even if the darker shot was taken in the shadow of a vessel, it looks more like a picture taken at nighttime with a flash than during the day in a shadow.

So now I guess the question is: do the physical characteristics that are visible align more closely with dosidicus (or another animal) or architeuthis? That is for more skilled eyes than mine to determine. ;) I can't find a good image of dosidicus to compare it to.

Edit: I dug around and found some illustrations and pictures of dosidicus; it really doesn't look much like the animal in the pictures. The fins of dosidicus seems very large and pronounced, the animal in the first picture seems to have much more narrow fins. Also, I don't think that what appears to be a rhomboid tentacle club on the left side of the animal is a tentacle club at all; it looks to me like churned water around the end of an arm, or possibly part of the bait in the water. The tentacle I referred to as cocked back by the mantle is on the right side of the animal, just behind the head, like a shadow under the water. To my eye, that appears to be longer and more slender than the shape on the left, and not moving (so perhaps its shape is more likely correct).

Of course, I want to be looking at an image of a living architeuthis badly enough that my next edit will probably include the discovery of a tattoo reading "Architeuthis sum" on the mantle just above the head. :madsci:

Clem, Ku is a good friend of mine, but he's really busy; I'll drop him a note (he actually showed me those rock-pool Architeuthis images last year); there's also video of 'another squid' that is probably the finest video of its type out there ... a documentary company's dream.

I'll respond re those queries shortly.
Cheers
O

It certainly seems more in character for dosidicus to be going after a baited line than for architeuthis.

Totally agreed, Bald Evil. I'm not convinced the animal in the blue water photo is Dosidicus. Compare the photo with this one:

Humboldt squid (http://www.bajadestinations.com/hbarc/hb2002/hb020902/WilliamsSquid.jpg)

It seems to me that the fins are much more muscular with Dosidicus. In the linked photo the fins seem to take up almost half of the length of the mantle, but in the blue water photo the fins seem to be at the apex, occupying the last fifth or so of the mantle length. Also the head seems to be too bulky.....it's so difficult to tell.

To be honest, it's the animal in the black water photo which really intrigues me. I suppose it is possible it is the same animal if, say, it had been caught in the shade of a sail. But I am inclined to agree with you, that it could be a second animal.

They're not the best of pics, but the tentacle clubs are of interest (expanded, the tentacles short; see the right side of the animal in the blue-water shot ... the one that looks very similar to Architeuthis).

See if anyone can find better images of Berryteuthis (scroll down the attached link).
It can't be discounted ... yet.

http://www.zen-ika.com/zukan/31-40/p36.html

hmm I've downloaded the images to my comp, and now that i've studued them more intently it look's to me as if that live archi was struggling for life long before it got washed ashore.
Must have been caught by some ol' sea-fisherman, arrg! :heee:

I see on ceph-list there is some debate as to whether or not this is a hoax! Mainly because of that eye! Some suggest that Archi eyes are round therefore this must be a hoax :bonk: I doubt that someone with the standing of Dr Kubodera would be associated with something like that and anyhow who knew WHAT a living giant squid's eye looked like :x excepting maybe a sperm whale and they ain't telling :D

What a cynical world we live in!

J

I see on ceph-list there is some debate as to whether or not this is a hoax!
Jean,

That's quite sad. Perhaps the "under the radar" nature of the Kyoto event and the long interval before making it public accounts for some of the suspicion. As for the eye, I think Steve explained it very well; confronted with flash photography, the squid is contracting the muscles surrounding the eye and the pupil has shrunk accordingly.

Grrr.

Clem

Ja ... sad .... but this is definitely no hoax. So, they're talking about this online elsewhere?? Why do that when they could chat away here?

Bizarre world we live in.

So, they're talking about this online elsewhere?? Why do that when they could chat away here?


Well, that's an easy question. It's the difference in mediums. A bulletin board is something you have to go to and check periodically, but a mailing list delivers the information to you. In many ways it's easier.

Regarding the furor on Cephlist about this squid pic, well that's what makes scientists scientific: skeptisicm. Their prime instinct is to ask questions. You gotta admit, every person outside the scientific realm who has handled a squid has observed big round dumbstare eyes, so seeing a picture of an Architeuthis with an eye that really needs a big hairy black eyebrow over it is startling. (It does, doesn't it?)

I'm quite shocked that news of this photography didn't make the desktops of many CephList readers.

Rock on, Jimbo

You gotta admit, every person outside the scientific realm who has handled a squid has observed big round dumbstare eyes, so seeing a picture of an archeteuthis with an eye that really needs a big hairy black eyebrow over it is startling. (It does, doesn't it?)
Cephjedi,

An excellent point. The logical rejoinder to any accusation of fakery is this: why expend the effort to produce an image that does not fit the preconceived notions of what the animal should look like? Most of us expected a big, staring google eye. A faker intent on creating a believable facsimile would craft an image that met expectations.

As for the native skepticism of scientists, it's to be expected, but I sense that something else is at work here. I just can't put my finger on what that might be.

Now I'm seeing a hairy black eyebrow. Dammit!

Clem

Does anyone know the sex of these Archi? Or at least of the first set of pics?
Just curious.
These pics are something else. Incredible. :shock: :goofysca: :bugout:

I was wondering if it was an adult or a juvenile? :)

WOW!! I need to start coming back here more! This is amazing!

Wow.... amazing.... I must come here more often.

Incredable....

This may be an overly simple (or controversial) question, but I'll take the risk...

If we are to assume that the animal in the Kyoto photographs is Architeuthis and it shows unusual features, such as the keel, can a particular species be determined? Is it, perhaps a member of its own species? Based on Dr. O'Shea's writings elsewhere on TONMO, any distinction between A. clarkei, A. kirkii and A. japonica are illusory -- there is only A. dux. Any comments?

Thanks for such a wonderful site!

- Ika-san

P.S. Dr. O'Shea, you wrote an earlier appeal for volunteers to help out in NZ. I will be going on a two month paid sabbatical from work next year, and would take little convincing to come down and lend a hand. Can you use an American electrical/computer engineer around the lab or the boat if he pays his own way? Given time I could even get a SCUBA cert... :heee:

If we are to assume that the animal in the Kyoto photographs is Architeuthis and it shows unusual features, such as the keel, can a particular species be determined? Is it, perhaps a member of its own species? Based on Dr. O'Shea's writings elsewhere on TONMO, any distinction between A. clarkei, A. kirkii and A. japonica are illusory -- there is only A. dux. Any comments?


Hmmmm - I've just been quoted. Neither morphological nor genetic grounds exist for recognising multiple species of Architeuthis, at least throughout the North and South Atlantic, and South Pacific, but we haven't been able to secure comparative material from the central and northern Pacific. With this in mind we recognise a single Atlantic/South Pacific species, A. dux being the first described. The Japanese fauna is interesting in that many species are common to New Zealand, in addition to a number of otherwise very closely related species common to these two regions (without recognised [STRESS recognised] taxa known from intermediate locals) (The New Zealand and Japanese cephalopod faunas being amongst the best known/described thus far; it could be an artefact of monographic revision). Nevertheless, there would appear to be a clear biogeographic link between the two regions; because of this I would be surprised if a separate species of Architeuthis occured off Japan. Then again, one thing that never ceases to surprise me when it comes to cephalopods is how often I end up being surprised. A. japonica and A. clarkei are probably synonyms of A. dux, but until these Pacific forms are revised then we'll not know for sure.

As for coming to New Zealand and helping out, well, let me think about this.

.... thinking ....


.... thinking some more .....


.... this might take a while .....


:oshea:


OK, you're on! You tell me what you'd like to do and I'm sure we'll be able to find something.

Steve O wrote:
how often I end up being surprised

This doesn't even need a comment . . . . . .

:shock:
:heee:

Why M, how positively wicked of you - and to think I'd saved you a few flounder .....

Ku is ... really busy; I'll drop him a note (he actually showed me those rock-pool Architeuthis images last year) ...

Just heard back from Ku (indeed, up to all sorts of interesting things). He confirms that these images are of Architeuthis, and that they are no hoax. He also relayed a little more exciting news (biting tongue, biting tongue) ..... news that surprised me a little (pieces of the puzzle coming together; no, GS hasn't been filmed, but startling revelations as to its biology are just as, if not more interesting than a bit of film).

Tiz only a matter of time.

Great. Now I'm not going to be able to sleep again.

:archi: :confused:

.... the new news is pretty sensational, but no thumb screw will extract the info from my tightly bound, stitched and glued lips .....

I also wonder whether Archi is truly ammoniacal throughout its life cycle, or whether this is some development associated with reproductive maturity, or a drop through the water column when a certain size has been reached. This has nothing to do with the recent news .... but a related tangent ....

I would now most definitely think twice about 'swimming/messing with Archi ....' Lock up your children and check your paddle pools before entering!

As an aside, spend a couple of days away from this site and all sorts of pics go online; new Archi's, Meso, Histioteuthis, and this one, Onychoteuthis! :onycho:

These are all rather cool!

I would now most definitely think twice about 'swimming/messing with Archi ....' Lock up your children and check your paddle pools before entering!

Steve,

What happened? Did DNA typing of an Archi's stomach contents reveal a diet of largish sharks?:wink:

Thumb screws? Please, we are civilized here at TONMO.com. The fire-ants will be arriving shortly.

Clem

Also:

PLEASE CHECK THIS OUT:

I am not sure what form of squid is visible here drifting in the water but I think this will be of extreme interest:
http://homepage1.nifty.com/ozok/ika-story2.htm

Righteo ... here's an update.

Yes, the later pics are of Architeuthis, chasing jig-caught Thysanoteuthis!! Apparently this has happened a number of times. There's a pic of Megalocranchia in there too (the large squid partially in frame).

I find it difficult to believe, but themz the facts. Very interesting to note the pronounced counter-pigmentation in the Archi body - dark on top, light/white below; it is obviously an animal of the water column.

which part do you mean is difficult to belive? The fact that it is supposed to be archi chasing dinner?

Yes, the later pics are of Architeuthis, chasing jig-caught Thysanoteuthis!! Apparently this has happened a number of times...I find it difficult to believe, but themz the facts.
Steve,

That's big news. Without compromising intelligence sources and methods, can you tell us anything more about the circumstances? If not, and it's part of something in the works, we'll certainly understand.

Holy Crap. Now I owe Phil a drink.

:wine:

Yeah..Steve,

To identify the squid on the line as Thysanoteuthis you (and/or Ku) must have uncovered some background to the pictures...from just the picture alone I would have thought the bait squid on the line was pretty unidentifiable. Where and when were these taken? Are any more shots available?

Come to think of it, now that these 'live' pictures have been unearthed, are there any more of Clems' original captured GS that can be posted? Seems the cat is out of the bag now, are there any more out there that we could be allowed to see?

Phil

Seeing that living eye is incredible!

I feel so sorry for him/her/it. I'm just a big softie I suppose.

Amazing photos though.

KRin.

To identify the squid on the line as Thysanoteuthis you (and/or Ku) must have uncovered some background to the pictures...from just the picture alone I would have thought the bait squid on the line was pretty unidentifiable.

Here's the Architeuthis Phil found. (Click Here) (http://homepage1.nifty.com/ozok/daiouika0118-2-1.jpg)

Phil,

The Diamondback squid, Thysanoteuthis is fished commercially off Japan proper and Okinawa. The page you found is maintained by someone on Okinawa (I ran the home-page through Babelfish). It's probably a safe guess that your Archi was observed there, and puts in regular appearances with the local squid-jiggers. If so, I move to establish a fund to provide all squid-fishermen in the area with disposable digital cameras and TONMO's address.

Thysanoteuthis apparently dwells mid-water during the day and heads for the surface at night. With a very thick mantle, muscular fins and comapct head and armature, it must be quite speedy. If Architeuthis is poaching them off lines, that's surprising in its own right, especially given the high-intensity lights that the squid-boats employ; I'd been under the assumption that Archi eschewed such conditions. If the Giant were pursuing healthy, free Diamondbacks, then I'd be even more surprised: such pursuit would require more energy and speed then the GS has been assumed to produce.

On the cryptic side of things, proof of healthy Archis pursuing prey at the ocean's surface would powerfully re-inforce the Giant Squid-as-Sea Monster theory.

What has happened to our passive drifter?

:goofysca:

Clem

What has happened to our passive drifter?

:goofysca:

Clem

Ja ... hence lock your children up and check the paddle pool!

Perhaps it isn't ammoniacal throughout its entire lifespan, but only when mature. The problem is that these intermediate-sized animals aren't really known, so nobody has tested for ammonium ion levels in them (wheras I've done the ammonium/sodium ion ratios on mature individuals).

Nothing surprises me any more - nothing!!!!

which part do you mean is difficult to belive? The fact that it is supposed to be archi chasing dinner?

More that the brute was seen at the surface. It doesn't look like a particularly large one, but all the same it shouldn't be anywhere near the surface given the average depth of capture (at least in NZ waters, n = ~ 75 well-localised specimens) is 498m, with the most shallow being taken at 275m.

.... but then, quite recently, we had the near-fully mature Architeuthis beaks taken from the stomach of a blue shark in northeastern NZ waters - a shark that's not supposed to feed deeper than 150m.

It certainly has me scratching my head.

.... someone else asked 'how we knew it was Thysanoteuthis', based on the fragmentary remains on the end of the hook. They were jigging for Thysanoteuthis at the time, so I guess they assumed that was what it was. Thysanoteuthis does have a very distinctive mantle- and funnel-locking apparatus, that could be discerned from the tattered mantle remains, but I don't know whether they checked (its beaks are also quite [most] similar to those of Architeuthis).

The next question I have is would Architeuthis take a jig? It's worth a shot in known Archi territory. We're scheming away on another expedition somewhere quite new, somewhere where blue sharks have been found with tell-tale beaks in their stomachs, but this is very light pencil at this point in time.

Thysanoteuthis does have a very distinctive mantle- and funnel-locking apparatus, that could be discerned from the tattered mantle remains, but I don't know whether they checked (its beaks are also quite [most] similar to those of Architeuthis).

TOL has a page on Thysanoteuthis, with close-ups of the funnel-locking and mantle-locking structures. Click here to see the TOL entry (http://tolweb.org/tree?group=Thysanoteuthidae&contgroup=Decapodiformes), and compare their photo of the nucchal apparatus to an enlargement of the Archi-chomped Diamondback, below.

http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/download.php?id=1480

I dont mean to tread on anyones feet by suggesting this, but is it possible steve that you guys just dont know as much as we think you do about the habits of archi?

No toe-treading at all WK; it's all guesswork when we're in the dark.

What we do know is that they migrate into NZ waters to breed; from where they come we wouldn't have a clue.

We know that the larvae are found at point x and time y, but after that we wouldn't have a clue where they go (depth and location).

We believe that the adults are only ~ 1.5 years old, but the techniques we're using have not been validated (but are about to be).

We know that the adults are ammoniacal, but we don't know whether this is true of the larvae (and it is unlikely to be the case).

We know that the larvae occur in the shallows (upper metre or so) [at night] and we know that the adults aren't found (locally) shallower than 275 metres, but we don't know where the intermediate-sized animals live (is it 30m, 100m, 1000m....).

We now recognise no evidence for more than 1 world-wide species.

We know that the juveniles eat large prey (relatively speaking), probably 1-1.5 times the size of the larva, and we know that the adults eat small prey (relatively speaking), primarily squid several orders of magnitude smaller than the Architeuthis (in press right now), but we don't know what the intermediate-sized animals are eating, where they eat, what depth they occur at, and even where they are found. Humungous holes in our knowledge. All we can tell you is where the juveniles/immature individuals DO NOT occur (limited by sampling intensity).

The frightening thing is that this lack of knowledge applies to almost every squid (and octopus) species. We really are in the dark. ... and we probably know a lot more about Architeuthis than we do about the majority of other squid species!

I don't view this as a negative. A few years ago the larval Architeuthis was completely unknown to science, they were saying the adults were found in Kaikoura Canyon, that they ate orange roughy, assumed they resided in NZ waters throughout the year, lived at depths 1000-1500 metres (and probably deeper), that there were up to 19 species, then down to three, .... and the two greats, that they grew to lengths of 20 metres and weights of a ton or so. They also said it was the largest squid ..... And the one that really smarts, that I'd never be able to keep deep-sea squid alive in captivity!

Not bad for a couple of years I say; I just need a little more help down under, and a few more breaks (luck is a major contributing factor).

WK/all, I'm the first to admit that we're stabbing in the dark in the absence of hard data, and the first to admit that I got something wrong - and man-oh-man have I screwed up big time along the way.

.... and we probably know a little bit more about Archi than the synopsis above would indicate.

:glass:
O

I didnt realise that the Archies were restricted to just one species... which one is it?

Tiz A. dux Col; you'll sometimes hear of two others, A. japonica and A. sanctipauli.

Analyses of beak and body morphology, and genetics throughout the range of these species doesn't support the existence of multiple species, so we go for the first named, A. dux, as the most appropriate name and treat them all as one.

Woot, I was right about the line and tackle. :) I've helped science! Kinda. It'll be interesting to see where these developments lead. Could the capture of a live, mature giant squid be around the corner?

I do find it amusing and ironic that everything we learn about Architeuthis only seems to point up exactly how little we know about them! :P

I have to say that comming to these boards makes me feal like a kid again. This is amazing... I am wondering if Discovery is thinking about sending a documentry crew to get footage of that squid. :)

Bald Evil wrote:
It certainly seems more in character for dosidicus to be going after a baited line than for architeuthis. :/

Whoohoo! Someone mentioned the Humboldt!

We know that the adults are ammoniacal, but we don't know whether this is true of the larvae (and it is unlikely to be the case).

Try eating them. :heee:

This truely is remarkable stuff. I think its exciting that there is still so much to learn about A.Dux, just let your imagination run riot about what we may find out next!

Guys, I have a question. I don't know enough about ceph anatomy (still learning as quick as I can), but what is the 3rd arm keel exactly? I can see it on the photos, but what is its significance? is it found on all or some cephs?

I look forward to your reply(s).

I pondered this yesterday when looking at the squid here. The keel is a flange that extends the length of the third arms.

When a squid hovers/suspends itself in the water column the funnel is projected ventrally, squirting ventrally, providing uplift (it is of course oriented anteriorly when the animal is in its jet-propulsion mode, shooting backwards when the mantle musculature contracts rapidly).

The keels give the animal stability in both forward and backward motion. When targetting a prey item the squid's arms attenuate anteriorly, the squid scrunches its eyes forward and sights the prey up along the arms/tentacles (that are drawn out into an acute point). When the prey moves so too does the attenuated point of the arms, and then the body of the squid itself moves to compensate (its very clever what these animals can do), using these keels much like rudders/wings. I think the lunge forward is driven more by rapid fin activity than it is by jet propulsion (using the funnel, projected posteriorly, and mantle contraction); the keels, during this final lunge forward, probably serve to stabilise the anterior-jetting squid, and allow for rapid changes in direction by subtle changes in inflection.

A squid using the funnel to jet forward (they do do this; it looks quite weird) has the same jerky motion that would be expected from funnel-driven locomotion. The motion of a squid in the milliseconds prior to a lunge, and during the lunge, is smooth (hence a fin-driven lunge towards the prey). The high-speed film shot last week will answer some of these questions.

... just ideas; not sure how much truth there is in all of this.
O

We believe that the adults are only ~ 1.5 years old, but the techniques we're using have not been validated (but are about to be).

How?? What?? Where?? When??...........................Tell me more!!!!!!!!




And the one that really smarts, that I'd never be able to keep deep-sea squid alive in captivity!


O

Sock it to 'em Steve!

J

.... over the next two months. I'll either have my sock in my mouth or a big grin

.... over the next two months. I'll either have my sock in my mouth or a big grin
Steve,

Either way, stock up on Altoids.

:wink:

Clem

Altoids.

Huh :?: :?: :?:

breath mints.... theyre advertised as being "curiously strong"

ahhh Mesa unnerstand (sorry was watching episode II last night and that syntax rubs off :oops: )

We called those........Curiously Strong Mints :lol:

J

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=624&ncid=624&e=1&u=/ap/20040128/ap_on_sc/shark_attacks_1

Could it be???? Page probably will not be available for long. :whalevsa:

I don't know enough about ceph anatomy (still learning as quick as I can), but what is the 3rd arm keel exactly? I can see it on the photos, but what is its significance? is it found on all or some cephs?
Hello Aron,

Back in July, 2002, a 250kg giant squid washed up on a Tasmanian beach. The female, recently impregnated, had what appeared to be keels on all eight arms, not just the third arm-pair. There was talk that it might be something other than Architeuthis, and also talk that the keels might have been strips of the skin integument hanging off the corpse. Don't know how the matter was decided...

Dosidicus gigas also has keels on the third arms. There might be more squid so equipped, but I haven't looked at all the Tree of Life entries, yet.

By the way, I didn't know Olympia was a Bass drinker.:wink:

:beer:

Clem

As for the shark part, it is really good news, but I just hope the sharks aren't on the decline.

Many thanks steve/clem

I now know that little bit more......

As for olympia? she's drinking a pint of 'summer lightning' by the hopback brewery. If any of you guys are every over in the uk, I can recommend plenty of breweries to try out, hey, mayby I'll join ya!

Cheers!