hi can anyone halp me i have very high nitrates 80 ppm in all 3 octo tanks. they all have good skimmers wet-dry and 2 ehiem 2217 on each. i do water changes every 2-3 weeks about 20-30 percent.does anyone think a deep sand bed would help its already 3 inces deep. i have tried all types of removers i dont over feed every other day. does anyone have any advice? thankyou. oh and i do have live rock and i took all the bio-balls out a couple of days ago. but now im worried about rising ammonia.

A refugeum tank might be a good idea.How big is your tank ,and how much live rock do you have?

there all 55 gal w/about 25 pounds of l-rock. i just took out the bio-balls so that should help and i made a diy de-nitrate w/coils in a pvc pipew/bio balls w/slow drip rate. its still not hooked up yet i just made it today. but i know it will take months to work if it works at all. but w/doing water changes i dont understand why there so high?

I would suggest more live rock.

Refugium should help. People have also used remote deep sand beds. The bio balls probably was the source and you should be seeing it drop with progressive water changes. If your shooting to get completely 0 nitrates, you may also want to look into sulfur denitrators as well. Ive actually been reading alot about them lately.

Heres a DIY posting on one in RC.
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1288082

I made a dual stage calcium reactor and Im thinking of just converting the 2nd stage into a denitrator. It should be fairly cheap to make one. Or you can buy a cool one here

http://www.midwestaquatic.com/PRODUCTS/sulfur_denitrifier.htm?gclid=CNux457trZI CFQ0BiQoduCE_MQ

I would suggest performing additional water changes; perhaps every week until the nitrates are back under control, at which point you may be able to do them every other week.

Crushed oyster shell seems to work very well at sequestering the nitrate before finally releasing it into the water.

Good luck with the denitrifier.

Greg

Im having trouble with nitrates as well, do you just crush up some oyster and throw it into the tank? and how much for a 12 gallon?

I think the above suggestions are good, more live rock, deep sand bed, water changes,remove dead animals... one Question is whether the nitrate level is different than in the past? It is amazing how much octopuses and other animals can tolerate in terms of the nitrate level as long as its not a sudden change. If you still have high levels after these changes I would suggest trying vodka.It is commonly used in reef aquaria systems. The 2 carbon ethanol acts as a food source to produce enough bacteria of the sort that breaks down nitrates to nitrogen gas. Much like a denitrator works,only much so much simpler. For a 55 g. tank 1 teaspoon daily is a reasonable dose. Chart the daily nitrates and you'll be pleasantly surprised by the drop over 3-4 weeks.

Export is usually the most surefire way to go. Large waterchanges or a denitrifier.

How old are the systems?

I would be hesitant to add ethanol (vodka) to a cephalopod tank even in small doses, but that does pose an interesting topic. Though, the concentrations recommended (~0.00025%) should not pose any risk as they are well below the concentrations of anesthesia (1-5%) and euthanasia (5-10%).

Obi one,

Is this anecdotal or is there research done on this subject. I am interested in trying this with a shrimp culture setup I have and at those concentrations I would not suspect to see any problems with the use of ethanol. I have ethanol (everclear actually), and I will be using it in a 125g system. I would assume that 2-3 teaspoons (5-10ml) would be sufficient for the system. The nitrate levels currently run around 75 mg/L and that sounds like an interesting method. Any other information you can give me on the subject would be much appreciated.

Greg

I would be hesitant to add ethanol (vodka) to a cephalopod tank even in small doses, but that does pose an interesting topic. Though, the concentrations recommended (~0.00025%) should not pose any risk as they are well below the concentrations of anesthesia (1-5%) and euthanasia (5-10%).

Obi one,

Is this anecdotal or is there research done on this subject. I am interested in trying this with a shrimp culture setup I have and at those concentrations I would not suspect to see any problems with the use of ethanol. I have ethanol (everclear actually), and I will be using it in a 125g system. I would assume that 2-3 teaspoons (5-10ml) would be sufficient for the system. The nitrate levels currently run around 75 mg/L and that sounds like an interesting method. Any other information you can give me on the subject would be much appreciated.

Greg

Julian Sprung attended one of our MAS meetings and talked about this in depth. I haven't tried it personally but the man typically knows his stuff.

How long would it take for the ethanol to evaporate out and how often would it be needed to effectively reduce existing nitrate? My thinking would be to douce a tank between occupants ...

I've used the vodka method quite a few times, both in cold water and tropical reef systems. I am currently using it in 3 tanks. I had found it to be easy and the nitrates always came down to the 1-2 range from levels near 100. It will take about 3-4 weeks to see the drop, but then it is dramatic. A very good protein skimmer is a necessity.

Info on the Vodka method is available. A couple of sources that come to mind are The Reef Aquarium volume 3 by Delbeek and Sprung, and a recent Coral magazine- an English version of a German mag. Also I recall several discussions on reefcentral.com. Often people substitute sugar for the carbon source. And I suppose that if you're not getting the desired results you could drown your sorrows by drinking the vodka(!).

Methanol works better than ethanol in marine tanks for feeding denitrifying bacteria. But in reality you should be doing water changes as without a sophisticated denitrifying filter the amount of bacteria that you can grow in your aquarium is minimal and would not be able to convert the nitrate quick enough due to denitrifying bacteria needing specific enviormental conditions to grow such as very low D.O. also the bacteria will start producing Hydrogen Sulfide which is a lot more toxic than the nitrate if there optimal conditions are not present.

thanks for everones input. i talked to a guy today. he said to use a 2 liter fillit half way w/ live sulfer w/ a slow flow rate. the water enters to th bottom of 2 liter and over flows into sump. does any one know if that would harm octos? he used it on a fish only and he said it worked great.any answers about hurting my octos? thanks

Watch your pH very closely, sulphur can acidify in water (acid rain!)

J

this thread talkes about these, and you all might find it a good read..
http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=115444

long story short, he feeds his this. (non methanol)
http://www.eosenvironmental.com/product/microc_g.htm

What is the root cause of the nitrates? Not enough LR, or LS? Are there pockets of built up detritus that are causing this?

Hah, oops just read the other posts. A remote sandbed in a 5 gallon bucket with a lid on it would greatly help with NNR.

The root cause of nitrate is simply having animals in your system. Regular water changes are the best way to keep it down. A remote sandbed may work, but most people who use advanced techniques like that keep animals that don't generate as much waste.

Not that I am excusing practicing less then ideal husbandry, but I've read many scientific studies on Octo's. One study raised the Nitrates to 500PPM and it had no ill effect on Octo's other then slowing their reproduction rate. Again, I am NOT saying that you should duplicate this but I think they'll be fine until you correct this. Also, the three things for nitrate reduction that I would reccomend is 1-1.5 lb/gallon quality live rock, an oversized protein skimmer (euro reef, bermuda,deltec, remora) and a macro algae transport system (i.e. refugia of at least 5-10% of total water volume). I would not rely on chemicals as this is masking the problem not attacking the solution. Also, check your source/make up water and make sure you use RO.

Not that I am excusing practicing less then ideal husbandry, but I've read many scientific studies on Octo's. One study raised the Nitrates to 500PPM and it had no ill effect on Octo's other then slowing their reproduction rate. Again, I am NOT saying that you should duplicate this but I think they'll be fine until you correct this. Also, the three things for nitrate reduction that I would reccomend is 1-1.5 lb/gallon quality live rock, an oversized protein skimmer (euro reef, bermuda,deltec, remora) and a macro algae transport system (i.e. refugia of at least 5-10% of total water volume). I would not rely on chemicals as this is masking the problem not attacking the solution. Also, check your source/make up water and make sure you use RO.

Just to clarify this (particularly the "less than ideal husbandry" part):

There is a study, cited in Boyle (1991) The Care and Management of Cephalopods in the Laboratory and on Hanlon's publication page as "Hanlon, R.T.; Forsythe, J.W. 1985. Advances in the laboratory culture of octopuses for biomedical research. Lab. Anim. Sci. 35(1): 33-40." which apparently reports 500 mg/l as only impacting reproduction, but I don't have a copy or an indication of what species were tested. However, the relevant sections of Boyle provide other context:

p.31 As with fish, it is the build up of nitrogenous excretory products which poses the main problem for closed sea water aquaria. Boletzky and Hanlon (1983) recommend the adoption of Spotte's (1979a) standards: < 0.10 mg/l ammonia, < 0.10 mg/l nitrite, < 20.00 mg/l nitrate. However, higher levels of nitrate concentration are tolerated by some octopuses, eg Eledone cirrhosa (50 mg/l nitrate, Boyle 1981a), Octopus joubini and O. digueti (100 - 200 mg/l nitrate, Forsythe 1984; DeRusha et al 1987). These levels have been measured for relatively few species and range of tolerance levels are not established.

and p.32 In small recirculating systems ( 2600 l ), with biological and mechanical filtration, physical absorption ('protein skimmers') and UV sterilization, Hanlon and Forsythe (1985) were able to hold a maximum octopus biomass of 15kg. Sustained levels of ammonio-notrogen and nitrate*-nitrogen of up to 0.20 mg / l were tolerated. Nitrate-nitrogen could be held at 500 mg/l although it was felt that levels over 100 mg/l were affecting reproductive success. Clearly the holding capacity of any aquarium is more related to its ability to control water quality rather than absolute space requirements of the animals

I am assuming the nitrate* is a typo for nitrite.

Since this was a study in extremes, it sets a cap for one species of octopus that can survive, but not reproduce, at very high nitrate levels. That doesn't mean this should be considered safe, healthy, natural, or appropriate, and Hanlon's recommendation is cited as 20 mg/l (= 20 ppm) maximum as a rule.

I'm not trying to be pedantic or argumentative, just make sure that people reading this don't read into this that high nitrate is "OK."