Fresh back from another gallavant around New Zealand we've picked up a few new squid from the New Zealand region. Albeit damaged, the attached is most unusual and could well be the true Magnapinna (rather than the 'mystery squid' with the 10 long poorly differentiated appendages (8 assumed to be arms, 2 tentacles).

There's a suite of other taxa in the collection that represent first records for New Zealand - a few that have me scratching my head. Quite sensational material! We've also got a fully mature Taningia and 2 more Architeuthis, something that could well be a massive, mature Echinoteuthis, and some absolutely bizarre Chiroteuthis specimens.

I'm posting online a few images of the ?Magnapinna, but the identification may change as more detailed work is undertaken on relationships between this specimen and others referred to Mastigoteuthis (s.l.).

O

http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/download.php?id=854

http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/download.php?id=853

http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/download.php?id=852

Round 2

http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/download.php?id=855

http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/download.php?id=856

http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/download.php?id=857

Round 3

http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/download.php?id=860

http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/download.php?id=858

http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/download.php?id=859

The buccal membranes attach DDVV (to the dorso-lateral side of arms 1 and 2 and to the ventro-lateral face of arms 3 and 4). The suckers are biserial on each of the arms basally and distally, but the distal half to quarter of each of arms 1, 2 and 3 has the suckers crowded in 3 to 4 rows - they secondarily assume biseriality for the distal-most quarter.

The tentacles have been lost at capture. The dorsal mantle length is 153 mm, the specimen an immature female. The fins are extremely muscular and thick, very Taningia-like in appearance. No filaments are apparent at the ends of any arms (characteristic of larval/paralarval Magnapinna). There are no hooks on any arms, and the arms are short and muscular (unlike the inordinately long arms of the deep-sea brute referred to ?Magnapinna).

Anyone want to guess at what we have here? It could be some bizarre form of a previously described Mastigoteuthis (s.l.) species .... but it doesn't look right to me.
O

My personal favourite is the uninformative shot! It looks so like some I've taken (OK lots :( ) and chucked in the back of the cupboard !!!

But what a great animal! looking forward to hearing more reports on it (& all the others!!)

J

Hello,
I just subscribe to the list. I am writing in reply to the Magnapinna subject.

I examined the photos posted by Steve O. about the specimen that seems to be Magnapinna. Actually, is not.

It is a member of the Mastigoteuthidae, but definitely is a new species,
and why not, a new genus (Osheateuthis) Why not.

I have data from another specimen also from New Zealand waters with the same characteristics, this is a male of 96mm ML, fully mature. The main feature to separate it from other mastigoteuthid species is of course the size and arrangement of suckers, mainly in the distal third.

One more specimen, very damaged (only head and arms) examined in the NHM in London have the same features, I do not have the data but I suspect that is from the Atlantic Ocean.

Well, if you think my data are useful we can put them together to described the new taxa.

Regards,
Alejandro

Welcome, Alejandro! Please post pictures of your specimens!

Melissa

Hi Alejandro. Thanks for posting (for those that don't know Alejandro, he has published extensively on Mastigoteuthidae, and actually lives in Christchurch, New Zealand). Nice to have you aboard the SS www.Tonmo.com.

Are you aware of other species of 'Mastigoteuthis' (s.l.) with the same distribution (number of rows) of suckers on the distal portion of the arms? This, and the general muscular nature of the brute, lead me to believe it was something 'different', but instead of referring to it as a new species I made the suggestion that it was Magnapinna (as the adult/subadult of Magnapinna was unknown). The enormous fins of the larval/juvenile Magnapinna are similar to those of this particular species.

It is just about impossible to see how the larval/juvenile form attributed to Magnapinna is conspecific with the deep-sea long-armed form tentatively atrributed to this genus, without intermediate-sized specimens. There is no way that the New Zealand specimens are the same as this deep-water long-armed form (this I know). Have any long-armed brutes been found (that you are aware of?), or any intermediate-sized 'Magnapinna' (a pic would be dynamite).

I've two other 'Mastigoteuthis' species here (both await description from NZ waters), one is 'giant sized' (and frozen), the other is large bodied (pickled many years ago); both are known from single specimens only. I'm still trying to get my head around the Mastigoteuthis, Idioteuthis, Magnoteuthis, Echinoteuthis business (the species allocation did change throughout a number of papers); I don't believe that all/most should be lumped together in Mastigoteuthis (as on TOL).

I showed the pics (attached in earlier posting) of the thing attributed to ?Magnapinna to Dick Young; he didn't think it was Magnapinna (s.s.) either and suggested M. hjorti (but it was just a guess, and I don't think he was too happy with the suggestion); the number of sucker rows on those arms was a real problem. Does your Atlantic specimen have tentacles/clubs? Have you illustrations of gladius morphology, beaks, sucker-ring dentition?

Quite a few of the macrobenthic/benthopelagic invertebrates found in NZ waters have NZ/North Atlantic distributions; this is not without parallel.

Looking forward to some discussion here
Cheers
Steve

Hi Alejandro

If you're down in Dunedin, Look us up! Kerry & I are always keen to meet other ceph enthusiasts! That goes for anyone else of course :D It's just that Alejandro is on the MAINLAND! Just call the lab or aquarium (it's in the book) or pm us if you're coming down!

Cheers

J

Hi Melissa

Sorry, but I just have some notes and measurements and a bad drawing. But I remember all
details.
Alejandro

Welcome, Alejandro! Please post pictures of your specimens!

Melissa

Hi Jean,

I went to the aquarium last winter (2002), but you were not there.
Any way, next time I will let you know in advance.
Cheers,
Alejandro

Hi Alejandro

If you're down in Dunedin, Look us up! Kerry & I are always keen to meet other ceph enthusiasts! That goes for anyone else of course :D It's just that Alejandro is on the MAINLAND! Just call the lab or aquarium (it's in the book) or pm us if you're coming down!

Cheers

J

Hi Steve,
Thanks for the introduction, but at the moment I spent more time learning digital techonologies but still in touch with my squid notes and pcis.

The Magnapinna armature is very short, and the tentacles thick. I will post later the pic of the Magnapinna n.sp. from the Atlantic. But your specimen has the fins as the Idioteuthis/Magnoteuthis type. So I asumme that the tentacle of that specimen could be Idioteuthis type.

I reached the conclusion that Mastigoteuthidae as defined by Verrill is not a multispecies family. I am more sure now that there is a superfamily o higher taxa with lots of genera/Families with a single or two species each.

The lack of specimens of all stages can not help to support this theory. But, with your specimens could be possible to move in that direction.

Regarding the long armed squid in the TOL, I can not agree completely with the idea that belongs to the Magnapinna group. At the moment, except for my picture I do not know anything else.

So, the specimen similar to yours is from NIWA, which I examined two years ago. If I give you the station number you may guess by heart the position, don't you?

In relation to the last paragraph, I have a lot of information on M. hjorti and PICS of the tentacle, etc. so I wont relate them to M. hjorti.
So, the specimens I examined were very damaged, but I do not have more data on gladius or beak, but I have notes on the sucker dentition and their size, rows and shape.

So, have you had posted already some pics of the Echinoteuthis specimen you mentioned in a earlier mail? I would like to see them.

Cheers,
Alejandro

Alejandro, I'll post pics of the 'Echinoteuthis' from work today; I'm just guessing that this is what it is - it's like the only available name that I can think of that might apply. There's another thread online (Steve's freezer), within which there's a frozen mastigoteuthid that I cannot put a name on either (comparable in size to cordiformis). I can't defrost this immediately (no time), but will do so next week.

Interesting stuff!!
Cheers
Steve

Hi Steve,

Good luck with your defrosting of the giant mastigoteuthid. I will post the Magnapinna tomorrow (because I just found the file, it was lost). Hope to see soon the ?Echinoteuthis. It is exciting!!

Cheers,
Alejandro

Howdo Alejandro. Now this thing has me beat! It's a submature female (nice ovarian development). There's a single specimen only from NZ waters, ~ 1000m deep from the Chatham Rise (I recall - it could have been deeper), collected a decade-or-so ago.

I get the impression it had a secondary tail, but have yet to check out the gladius, or what happens to the gladius in the likes of Grimalditeuthis (I know that this isn't Grimalditeuthis; I've yet to find a good illustration of the gladius of this thing, to find out what happens up the pointy end, other than having a remarkably elongate rostrum-like conus).

The pics are not great, but they give you an overview of the beast. Interested to hear what you have to say.
Cheers
O

http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/download.php?id=1062

http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/download.php?id=1061

http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/download.php?id=1060

Fin (ventral), mantle and funnel-locking cartilages

http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/download.php?id=1065

http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/download.php?id=1063

http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/download.php?id=1064

.... and a few extra wee characters (interesting skin texture/sculpture)

http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/download.php?id=1066

http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/download.php?id=1067

Too weird :shock: Steve, is that skin sculpturing cartilaginous, calcareous, soft........................?

J

May I ask a stupid question about the skin sculpturing? Thanks.

What's it for? It reminds me a little of the dimpling on a golf ball, and it occurs to me that the same sort of thing might be useful in reducing the drag on the squid (by generating a small amount of turbulence that delays separation of the boundary layer).

(by generating a small amount of turbulence that delays separation of the boundary layer).

noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo! not physics :shock: it's too early in the morning!


must have :coffee: must have :coffee: must have :coffee: must have :coffee: must have :coffee: must have :coffee: must have :coffee:

J

The same argument has been applied to Lepidoteuthis; a golf ball without dimples doesn't travel anywhere near as far with the same drive as one with dimples (this is why golf balls are dimpled) ... and no, I haven't the patience or time for golf (maybe I should take it up?).

There doesn't appear to be any cartilaginous tubercule-like structure associated with those dimples, but the same dimple-like structures are also present on the mantle musculature of some onychoteuthid squid (where they seem to be associated with actual blisters/papilla in the skin). Perhaps we're looking at a very abraded surface, and in life the animal would have been quite papillose.

... questions, questions, questions ... I wish I had some answers.

Hi Steve,
Great pics.

At first view does not look like Echinoteuthis to me. But let me check my notes and I will be back to you.

Nevetheless, some large "mastigoteuthid-like" squids, develop in "older stages", some kind of reticulated, cartilaginous tissue on the skin. So I think is a common feature in meso/bathypelagic squids. I have seen that in other species. If you could take a SEM photo will be a good reference for the future.

The armature remind me a grimalditeuthid, you are right, but also the "subconus" in the ventral view where the gladius extends (? clear) :roll:
is very gelatinous, uncommon in mastigoteuthids.

Well, like in pocker, I examined one very similar specimen from south of Japan and I tried to placed it into the Chiroteuthidae, but I was not convinced completely with the main taxonomic features. So I named species "Mastigoteuthis" sp F., 1993 (just to put any name). Later I decided to placed it as a link between Chiro and Mastigo families. This could be a new family, under the Chiroteuthoidea (?).

At generic level could be anything, but at family level I will put together, as I said before, Mastigo/Chiro as a single family, so it could fit in between.

Well, too much speculating, but I will check my old notes and I will bring some info on my specimen from Japan.
Great squid, Steve! Congratulations!
Alejandro

Hola,

This is a Magnapinna n.sp. The photo is the same specimen in ventral and dorsal views. The full length in no more than 80mm.
I really believe that Magnapinnidae is a group with small size species.

Any question? 8)
Alejandro

http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/download.php?id=1070

That's Magnapinna for sure!! WOW! Nice find!!!

Alejandro, it looks like we have a collab paper on that NZ 'Chiroteuthid/Mastigoteuthid' thing doesn't it; I'm glad that it is transitional between these two presently accepted families, as I really did scratch my head trying to accommodate it. It resembled a specimen you attributed to Echinoteuthis in 1994 (Salcedo-Vargus, M.A.; Okutani, T. 1994. New classification of the squid family Mastigoteuthidae (Cephalopoda: Oegopsida). Venus 53(2):119-127), and it was based largely on that illustration (Fig. 4) that I made the provisional identification.

I can't wait to defrost this other brute we have here ... it is weird! Following your 1994 classification, it fits in the genus Magnoteuthis.

I quite like the 1994 classification - I found it very easy to follow (a very nice paper), but got a little confused later on when the generic and specific allocation/identifications changed. You are more than welcome to start up a new thread titled something to do with 'mastigoteuthid/chiroteuthid lineages', and update us on recent generic diagnoses/species identifications/allocations. It would help immensely. I do not like lumping all of these things in the genus Mastigoteuthis (as is presently advocated on TOL, mainly because of the systematic confusion out there). You never know who reads these threads; it would be great to have open discussion on generic relationships and species identifications.

Cheers
Steve

I really believe that Magnapinnidae is a group with small size species.

Any question? 8)
Alejandro

Here's one. Can you sex these things (juveniles)? If small-sized then there should be apparent reproductive strucures - either the nidamental glands or penis should be visible. I still think that the subadult thing (original post) looks like this .... but I'm nuts.

Did yours have filaments at the arm tips, and crowded suckers along the arms? I'd love to see an illustration of sucker-ring armature, gladius and beak details, as this would really help narrow the thing down. I asked Dick about this on their juveniles; neither beaks nor gladius were dissected out.

Very soon I'll take the beaks and gladius out of one of the specimens here (original post) and put them online; it would be interesting to see what you make of it.
Cheers
O

Hi,

I will post some illustrations of the main taxonomic characters. I Did not dissected the specimen because is the only one, and for type designation I decided to leave it like that. But the gladius was quite clear, so I can guess the shape. And yes, the extremes of the arms have filaments and they are very crowded with suckers. I will scan the illustration this weekend and post them.

Thank you for the option to put together all this mess of this families, I am sure you can provide a lot of help. I was meant to put a lot of new info in the TOL, information that I had accumulated in the last 6 years. But I havenot had the chance to sit quietly and write down the ideas.

Will be interesting to put together more information. If an explotion of genera happend, well we can not force the group to fit in the Mastigoteuthis s.l. isn't it?

I am sorry If my paper of '94 clashes with the one in '97, just that I got a lot of new information and I wanted to clarify the apparent contradiction
but, it is time to do it NOW!

Till next,
Alehandro

Hi there,

I am posting drawing of the Magnapinna. The specimen, juvenile is 45 mm ML (excluding "tail" or conus of gladius).

I hope this give you a better idea of the specimen.

Cheers,
Alehandro

http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/download.php?id=1122

http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/download.php?id=1123

http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/download.php?id=1124

Excellent! Thanks for sharing this. Would be great to piece together a paper out of this thread...

few more illustrations.
Alehandro

http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/download.php?id=4071

http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/download.php?id=1126

There is a lot of junk in that squid's trunk. :shock:

There is a lot of junk in that squid's trunk. :shock:

That's the magna in magnapinna.

Do larger fins generally indicate stronger swimmers? Mesonychoteuthis also has a lot of junk in the trunk, compared to Architeuthis, and is expected to be the more aggressive hunter.

Melissa

I was wondering if those huge fins might be better suited to generally slower but more efficient swimming. Could they be used for something like gliding, or as some sort of a drogue to slow the squid's rate of descent?

Thinkin' out loud...

Before answering this post, Um...., I'd like to have a little more imagery (live animal footage) of various squid swimming - especially a contrast between big- and comparatively little-finned squid species.

The enormous and quite delicate fins of this Magnapinna would certainly appear more suited to gentle gliding or hovering than they would be to swimming ... but I don't want to say that this is the case (not yet). Just call it one of those mysteries, soon to be resolved.
Cheers
O

Just call it one of those mysteries, soon to be resolved.

Done. I wasn't really expecting anything solid, given the 3(?) specimens in hand and the 0(?) observations of the things alive in the water.

:cyclops:

Hi,

Have you any idea where or how to obtain some of those submarine videos to analyize squid swimming ?
Cheers,
Alehandro


I'd like to have a little more imagery (live animal footage) of various squid swimming - especially a contrast between big- and comparatively little-finned squid species.

There are quite a few snippets online, various locations, Alehandro, but from what I've seen so far you cannot look at fin morphology in isolation, relating this to an animal's behaviour; the film snippets are very much snapshots in time of a squid doing something remarkable or interesting, quite often an escape reaction, so it's hard to know what they do with their fins otherwise.

Over the next few months we intend to put series of 'swimming-squid' shots online (on Tonmo). Plans, plans, plans .... but little time.

Hello Alejandro,

In case you haven't seen these, yet:

http://www.mnh.si.edu/cephs/vetal01/vetal01.html

The last video clip on the page is especially good, showing mantle contraction and fin flapping.

Clem

Thanks Clem,

I have seen these video clips and they are amazing. Somo of them seems to be middle size specimens.
Something I can learn from those, in the meantime.
Cheers,

Alejandro

Well, I had a pleasant surprise last week - a wee vist from Dr Alejandro Salcedo; we sat down and talked squid all avo - twas wonderful. He's been a bit busy of late, hence his silence.

I like putting faces to names, so for those of you interested in what ceph gurus look like, well, here's Alejandro.

http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/download.php?id=3784

http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/download.php?id=3785