Hi all,

I recently purchased a small vulgaris for my classroom, and everything seems to be going well.

I'm a little concerned, however, that he's not eating. Currently, the 75-gallon tank is full of live freshwater ghost shrimp, two scarlet hermit crabs, and a damsel. He's been in the tank for a week with no evidence of eating.

About twice a day, I'll lift up the live rock he hides under to show my students. I know the light and other stimuli are stressful for him, but it's hard to resist the temptation when the students are begging to see the exciting new octopus.

Here is my question:

Will my octo eventually become accustomed to moderate light and interaction, or am I killing it with stress?
Is it naive to think that I'll be able to teach him that the classroom stimuli (lights, students, etc.) are not a threat and that he's safe?

The octo's health and well-being are my top concern, so I'd like to know what you think.

Thanks in advance,

Dustan

Welcome to our board.

You shouldn't lift the rock, and you should probably remove the damsel. They have been known to pick out octopus eyes and are just really territorial fish.

What kind of lighting is on the tank?

Thanks for the reply Animal Mother, and the welcome...

I just have a 15W florescent on one side of the tank for aesthetic purposes. The classroom lights add a bit as well.
I initially took out the damsel, which was my starter fish, but put him back in. At this point, I would be relieved if my octo eats him :)

-D

yea when you lift up the rock it just stresses him out. also try putting an emerald crab or fidler crab in the tank. i know it's hard to wait because i just recently got my octo about a week ago. now he is out all the time and explores the tank. just be patient and he will come out.

i'll agree with Animal Mother about not lifting the rock and with permanently removing the damsel. you might want to try red lighting: octos can't see red, and therefor it appears to them that the tank is dark. the downside here is that the red lighting could affect growth of cyanobacteria, so more maintenance would be required in that aspect.
how long has the octo been in the tank? it often takes a week or two to settle into a new environment, and lifting the rock is going to cause him to be reclusive for alonger period of time.
make sure that the students don't EVER tap on the glass. the vibrations through the water will harm the sensitive octo.
this kind of stress will cause even more hiding.

ONE MORE THING:
some octos are just naturally reclusive and/or nocturnal. they may not come out or become tame at all. personally, i don't think such a sensitive animal belongs in such an environment.

Have you cycled the tank, if so for how long, it usually takes 3 months for a tank to be mature enough for a ceph. also, fresh water animals are usually not good nutrition for salt water animals, you will want to use fiddler crabs, or salt water shrimp for food. If you could post pics of your octo, it might help us identify it, just in case its not vulgaris, companies more often than not have no idea what type of octo they have, and just name it some random name they find. If the octo is old, it could be going through senescence(sp?) which would explain its lack of eating. You might want to check water quality as well, just in case. octopuses are very sensitive to water quality

oh yeah... :welcome:

Also if you have fresh live rock, the octy may well be eating amphipods etc on the rock.

We find that telling the kids (In a small public aquarium) that moving the rock all the time is like a mean giant lifting off the roof of their house to see what they're doing... it does seem to help the kids understand why they can't do it all the time. Make sure the dank is in the dimmest part of the class room and perhaps change any lighting on it for red lights (octis can't see that).

If he's young he'll probably get used to the kids being around if his home is left alone (ours get used to many people around and being photographed!) and he can come out in his own good time. I've attached a couple of our classroom activities that the kids might like to do.

Cheers

J

Thanks Jean, L8, daddy, and Fish for the replies and the advice,...

Starting tomorrow, no more rock lifting (hopefully I haven't created any long-lasting anxiety in the little guy).
Also, I'll order some fiddlers and marine shrimp for food.
I'll work on getting a photo posted. I know he's some type of brown Atlantic octo.
From arm to arm, he's about the size of my hand, so I assume that he's relatively young. I can't imagine that being the full size of a vulgaris, if that's the species.

The tank's been up for about two months. It has live rock and carbon filtration, as well as a protein skimmer. Also, I've read that water O2 levels are extremely important, so I have multiple air stones and a (covered) power head with high O2 input.

Again, thanks everyone for the help. If my octo could post, I'm sure he would thank you too for ending the live rock lifting :^D

Great activities Jean, awesome, thanks!

-Dustan

Dustan,

Air bubblers are an issue. Cephs don't seem to do well if there are bubblers in the tank. The air can get trapped in the mantle cavity and that's fatal. Get them out! Unless you can change them into air lifts which are essentially hollow tubes attached to the undergravel filter and the airstones go into the tubes. The idea is that water will be sucked through the filter and bubbles will be discharged at the water surface, hopefully out of range of the mantle. The power head should be fine and is probably capable of oxygenating the water with out the bubblers.

J

Just curious, but what grade and subject do you teach

Wow, didn't know that, so thanks for telling me.
I'll take them out tomorrow morning.
Looks like I have a lot to learn...

Cheers,

Dustan

:welcome: and I'm glad you're asking good questions. I'm concerned that the octo isn't eating, since although the freshwater shrimp aren't that nutritious for them, usually octos consider them pretty appealing. It's not unusual for a new octo to hide for a long time, weeks sometime (and lifting up its rock may extend that), often they will come out at night and eat. However, a very common reason for an octopus to not eat is that there are water quality problems. I didn't see an answer to whether you had cycled the tank for three months (although since you mention the damsel as a "starter fish" I expect you have) but sometimes adding a large octopus to the tank can cause even a stable tank to go through a mini-cycle, so it's probably a good idea to do a water change (maybe 20%), and it's certainly a good idea to check the water parameters.

If it's that big, and it's U.S. Atlantic, it does sound like it's a vulgaris or briareus. If it is a vulgaris it is likely to outgrow the 75gal tank eventually-- they get quite large. Pictures might help us make sure of the ID, or look at pictures of briareus-- there were a lot of briareus for sale a few months ago, so a lot of people have them right now... I think the "Conan the Destroyer has Eggs" thread has some good pics.

A few other things I'll mentioned, although you seem to have researched things well enough that they're more for completeness: if the tank ever had copper-based medicine used to treat fish diseases, that stuff stays in tanks pretty much forever and cephalopods are sensitive to the copper at even trace levels. Unfortunately, there's not really anything you could do about it, but you can test for it. Also, you don't mention your octo-proofing strategies, so I just wanted to make sure that you've taken care of that.

Dustan,
Does your "brown" octo have false eye spots (blue)? Do his arms look almost stubby? This year has been a big one for Hummelincki which are more daytime oriented than the Vulgaris. Take a look through the Journals section and see if any of the photos look like your new student.

From arm to arm, he's about the size of my hand, so I assume that he's relatively young. I can't imagine that being the full size of a vulgaris, if that's the species.


Just to clarify... are you using "arm to arm" to refer to the span from the tips of the arms, or the base of the arms (across the mantle)? Sorry if it was clear to everyone else and I'm just being dense.

L8, I teach biology and marine science, 10th graders mostly. If you'd like to see what I have in the classroom, check out the link below:

Classroom Pets (http://schoolcenter.guilford.k12.nc.us/education/components/scrapbook/default.php?sectiondetailid=188328)

Thanks for the welcome Monty.
I'll take you advice and do a water change, just to be safe. I'm a little ashamed to admit that he's inked a few times, and I've read the ink can pollute the water somewhat.
I cycled the tank for about two months before adding him, and I've tested for copper. Speaking of copper, I usually add a trace element supplement to my tanks. However, I noticed that this product has a small amount of copper, which is metabolically important for some animals, but is it worth the risk of using in my octo tank?

As far as octo-proofing, I use mesh to cover all filter inputs/outputs, and blue duct tape to cover all other openings. So far so good....but I'm furiously knocking on wood right now :smile:

"D," my octo looks exactly like your avatar pic. He doesn't have blue eye spots, and spends a lot of time with his arms wrapped behind his head.

gHolland, good question, I wasn't very specific there. I would say, although it's tough to tell, that from arm tip to arm tip, he probably covers a 6-inch diameter.

Thanks to everyone again for your posts. They are most helpful, and I can already tell that octo enthusiasts are a great bunch!

Cheers,

Dustan

"D," my octo looks exactly like your avatar pic. He doesn't have blue eye spots, and spends a lot of time with his arms wrapped behind his head.

gHolland, good question, I wasn't very specific there. I would say, although it's tough to tell, that from arm tip to arm tip, he probably covers a 6-inch diameter.


First off Dustan, I just want to say what a wonderful job you're doing with the rapid-fire questioning! :wink:

Thanks for the clarification on size... when Monty said, "If it's that big," I was thinking, "If it's that small"...

So... could it be that you have an O. mercatoris... the same species that "D" and I have? "Arms over the head" or "arms between the eyes" seems to be a classic pose for mercs. You might check some of the photos and videos on our journals or the TONMO galleries and see how your octo compares:
Trapper's Babies - Tank Raised Mercatoris (http://www.tonmo.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10133)
Varys, our brooding O. mercatoris (http://www.tonmo.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12170)
TONMO Ceph Image Gallery (http://www.tonmo.com/gallery/index.php)
Good luck!

.
However, I noticed that this product has a small amount of copper, which is metabolically important for some animals, but is it worth the risk of using in my octo tank?


Hi Dustan,

Absolutely not! Octopus are very sensitive to copper and trace amounts can kill. I would imagine that if your other critters are getting a balanced diet the lack of the additive won't really matter!

J

gHolland, I'd say you're right about it being a merc. I checked out those links, and the merc images and videos match up to my octo really well, including color and movement.

It looks like he ate 7 or 8 ghost shrimp last night, so that's a good sign and a relief.
I feed the ghost shrimp marine flakes and spectrum pellets before the octo gets them, so I'm hoping they'll be nutritionally sufficient until I get some fiddlers and shore shrimp.

Thanks for answering that question Jean. I won't add the trace element solution to the octo tank.

So, he's eating now and not escaping, so I guess that's as good as it gets for an octo owner, yeah?

If I do have a merc gHolland, what can you tell me about their personalities and inclinations, based on your experience with that species. I'm hoping they're not completely nocturnal.

Thanks again all for the replies and info.

Cheers,
-D

Dwhatley's raising her 3rd generation of mercs right now. I kept one. I don't think any of us that have kept them have had any luck getting them to come out in the daytime hours. There are several threads loaded with details in the journals section if you have time to search them out and read. I really hope that's not the case. If it was sold to you as a vulgaris, you should contact the store and educate them :)

Hey AM,

Well, the merc news is a little discouraging, especially since the students come in everyday excitedly asking "did he come out yet?"

Since the mercs don't get very large, I might add another small octo, and definitely a diurnal one.
I haven't researched this possibility yet, but I have a feeling I'm going to find out that keeping two octos in the same tank, especially two different species, is a bad idea.

-D

Some people have had some success with multiple octopuses in one tank, but it's not suggested.

One thing I would suggest, is if you want to get a different octopus, offer your merc to up to the people on TONMO, I'm sure someone will take it eventually, then get an octopus from the NRCC, who have a lot of experience with cephs, and definitely wont mix up their octopus species. They dont offer cephs to the everyday person though, it has to be for research or something like that, and being a biology teacher im sure you could get one.

yea keeping 2 diff. octo species together will result in one eating the other. it's not a good idea. to get your octo to come out try getting red led lights because octos can't see red. once you get the red lights turn off all the lights in the classroom and see if he comes out.

They live on a schedule. It's doubtful it will change its habits. Mercs only live (generally speaking) 6-8 months, although D had luck keeping hers past 9 months. But at the size you describe, I'd say it's already an adult and will probably not be around much longer. Perhaps you'll be lucky enough to have a female with fertile eggs. That could make for a great classroom discussion.

I'm a big fan of my never-seen little merc, and I'm very excited to be keeping any octo alive and well, but I think I ended up with the wrong species for my specific needs.

So would you all agree that a vulgaris is my best bet for a hardy species with diurnal behavior?
If so, any recommendations for online ordering? By the way, bimacs aren't an option for my tank (I can't afford a chiller...)

L8, I'll take your advice and get in touch with the NRCC to see what my options are there.

I think it would be, an acleatus would be a good one too, there might be a couple others slipping my mind though. If you do go with a vulgaris, you will NEED a bigger tank, im not sure how big exactly, but the bigger the better, a 150 or so should do it.

hummelinckis are diurnal and i love mine. he's really playful and is out all the time. and the 75 gallon tank you have will be perfect for it. i've heard alot of people get hummelinckis from saltwaterfish.com. but you never know what your getting really.

It's actually pretty hard to reliably get a vulgaris, and it's too big for your current tank. Since this is education-related, you may be able to order from the NRCC and specify an exact species (they only sell to academic and research institutions, but they're much more reliable about identification that hobby collectors and distributors.) For a 75 gallon tank, either kind of bimac, hummelincki (the octopus formerly known as filosus), briareus, or Abdopus aculeatus are about the rights size, and they're all much more outgoing and at least learn to be diurnal.

Great advice guys,...
Vulgaris is out,.....I'll look into tracking down a hummelinckis or one of those other species if they're available.
All this great info is a tremendous help.

Thanks again!

Bio_Teacher,
It looks like our team has really covered most of the options and I can't add much BUT ... If you use some of your current LR and substrate to start a small tank (maybe for home or in a dark corner with a red light) while you look for a more suitable octopus, your little Merc can do fine in a round/hex 15 or rectangular 20 gallon tank. If you keep the water level a good 2" below the top (read that as 2"-3" not 1.5") and invest in a $35 skelter skimmer/filter and LOT of replacement filters, your little Merc can also have a home. You may even decide to keep the tank active after this one passes on :wink:.

If it is female, the egg hatching (about 4 weeks) would definitely be something the kids will remember but it will be very difficult to feed them since they too will be fully nocturnal. I believe it might be possible to get them to feed earlier if you keep the tank covered (like a bird cage :grin:) and I have found that a red light can be left on 24/7 without impacting their eating. If your little one ate several shrimp at one sitting, there is a high chance it is female and about to brood so you need to decide about a tank switch very quickly (you can't successfully add another at this point, even another Merc would be risky). Also, if you can quickly find a set of the large purple barnacles (pictured in the links gholland provided of my journals), I have had two females to take up residence and brood in them and was able to observe them over the entire brooding process.

Unfortunately, when you see a Merc out in the light of day, it is very near the end of its life (two weeks max, more likely a couple of days). Sisturus has started coming out at about 9:30 now but I try not to count that since it is not really daylight (he has been a very unusual Mercatoris and I don't expect to ever have another this interactive so I am fighting with reality as he is now 11 months old).

After I looked at your website (nice job)I was going to comment that you might not have a Mercatoris - then I saw the photo credits.
Welcome to your new addiction!

Hey dwhatley,

I think I'll take your advice and set up a smaller tank for my merc.

What do you think about briareus? I found one online (http://www.saltwaterearth.com/welcome/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1_73&products_id=381), and the greens and blues are quite stunning.
Monty suggested that species, but I'm not sure how big they get, how long they live, and how diurnal they are. I need to do some research there before purchasing.

Thanks for the website compliment. I haven't updated it since I got my merc.

If its a she, and she's pregnant, I'll definitely let you know and review your brood journal.

Take care,

-Dustan

Briareus take some adjusting as they are naturally nocturnal, but most of the members on here have luck converting them to diurnal. They can grow to 7 inch mantle, 24 inch arms.

Also, be careful with the pictures on websites often times, they find the pictures online and post them, or it is a picture of an octopus they had long ago.

Bio_Teacher,
You could read on the site for days (and I highly recommend it) but there are some relatively short articles (under the same heading) that give a good overview of keeping an octopus as a ward. The Journals expose the wide range of personalities ;>). One of the things you will note in the articles is that all octopuses that are home aquarium eligable live for roughly 1 year (basically birth, growth, reproduce and die). There seems to be a seasonality that suggests that this is about the same as the life span in the wild. The female (with one known exception) broods one batch of eggs, usually doesn't eat (many of us have had good luck feeding them - especially the Mercs - in an aquarium while brooding). The normal cycle for the female is death within a week after the eggs hatch (Mercs hatch out over about a 10 day period) but if you can keep her eating, it is viable to extend her life for several week.

Please keep us updated as you continue to experiment and let us know how the students react as they become accustomed to their new roommate(s).

Well, I think with all the info and advice from everyone here, I know enough to responsibly keep whatever species ends up in my classroom. It seems that with such short lifespans, I'll have the opportunity to keep a variety of (octopi, octopuses, or octopods?, hehe).

I witnessed a really funny event today with my merc. It was under a rock peering out, and I noticed it was firmly holding on to a hermit crab that was trying its best to get away. At first I thought it was eating the hermit, but it was just holding it to barracade the entrance. Poor little crustacean :^D

I'm going to order from saltwaterfish.com, which I hear from fishkid typically sends out hummelincki octos. He said they're active during the day and very interactive with him, so that sounds like a good option.
My current merc is going to get a smaller home in a darker area of the room.

Cheers, and thanks to all...

-Dustan