This is the first entry of a journal to document our first cephalopod experience. We made an impulsive purchase of an unidentified octopus on 12/22/07, an easy date to remember as it was our anniversary gift to ourselves. We named it Varys, after the the Master of Whisperers (a cryptic, cunning character known for disguises in George RR Martin's Song of Ice and Fire series). We knew that the octo was collected less than a week before from the coast of Florida by friends of our LFS owners, and thanks to helpful input from members of Reef Central and videos of her first introduction to the aquarium (and yes, we have since removed the dendrophyllias and tubastreas!):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yce5DoMBkeA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KDXTlyyfQE


... we were able to identify that we had an adult O. mercatoris. The octo took up residence under a piece of liverock and was completely nocturnal. We read up on the species and were pleased at how voraciously it was eating (a crab, snail, silverside, crawdad, basically whatever we offered-every night since day one.)

http://www.tonmo.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=4&pictureid=7

Then, on 1/14/08, we added a really nice emerald crab, and instead of an empty exoskeleton outside the entrance to her den the next morning, there was the emerald crab alive and well. We didn't worry, the previous offering had been a pretty big crawdad- maybe the octopus was still full. The next night, my wife remembers in retrospect, she was up in the middle of the night letting a dog out, and decided to turn on the red light and watch the octopus. Contrary to expectation, Varys was not out and about. However, she was able to see the octopus writhing around and undulating in the burrow, and didn't see the emerald crab. My wife assumed she'd missed the hunt and the octopus was under there eating the crab. However, the following morning, the crab was spotted again, alive and well, and the 2 entrances to the burrow were now completely blocked off with rubble and shells.

We feared the worst, that it might be the behavior of impending death, and again there were no sightings of the octopus and the crab survived a third night. We didn't want to ignore a potential carcass under the rock, so on 1/17/08 we finally decided to have a look. To our amazement and complete delight, there was Varys, doing her best to cover over and protect a small clutch of at least half a dozen 8-9mm elongated eggs!

http://www.tonmo.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=4&pictureid=8

We very carefully set the rock back down, only now the walled-off entrances were disturbed, so we were able to observe her behavior a little. She was hovering right under her eggs, and using several arms to "fondle" or "caress" them. She also kept one eye on us, and used a couple of other arms to eject some disturbed pieces of rubble. Probably thinking "stupid, stupid irritating humans.... I thought I trained them better than this...."

Since then, she's refused all food items, including cyclopeeze, jettisoning them with a quick squirt. She walled herself off completely again on 1/19/08, and we haven't disturbed her since then.

We're now making plans for rearing juvies, choosing to be optimistic about the eggs being fertile. Only time will tell...
That's pretty much all we have to share at this point. We are extremely glad to have an online forum since we have zero experience, and please do not hesitate to give us input- we'd greatly appreciate advice, comments, or gentle reprimands...

Cheers,
Greg and Jen Holland

Check out dwhately journals. She was very successful in breeding O. Mercatoris.

Absolutely... "required reading" for us!

good luck! dwhatley is certainly our merc husbandry expert at this point, and it will be fascinating to see how her techniques developed for Trapper and her offspring work out for an unrelated merc!

gholland,

There is an excellent chance that Vary has viable eggs. Great shot of them by the way, I have never seen what they look like :oops:. It is interesting that you see a low count since Trapper only had 6 hatchlings (Miss Broody had more but I don't know how many since I had escapees from the nets).

Continue to offer Cyclop-eeze near the outside of Vary's den but do not "blow" it into her den. Both my females ate this way through their brooding. However, Miss Broody, is now nowhere to be found and may think she is brooding eggs again (this is not supposed to be viable) and is not eating (assuming she is still alive an barricaded behind the shell I have located in an unusual spot). I noticed heavy eating with Miss Broody just before she started refusing normal food so hopfully this will sustain Vary for awhile and she will become hungry and eat (this was the case with Miss Broody but she would only eat the Cyclop-eeze after some point in the process). You might also try using an air line and a small, headless shrimp or freshly killed crab (trapper took quick frozen mithrax) near her any opening you can find near her den (do not offer live, this seems to represent a threat to the eggs and she will blot it away). Be very patient and try dandling it there for about half an hour (you might wait a couple of days so that she is hungry). Twice this technique has worked but now I am at a loss as to what to do as I cannot be sure Miss Broody is where I think she is and I am not sure she is alive (I did see HideNSeek come out from that area last night so he may be the one moving things about and not Miss Broody).

When the babies start hatching try to capture them within 24 hours. You should see little white "ticks" on the glass that you can coax up to the surface. I preferred using my hand or a very fine net for this as using a turkey baster made it difficult to release them to the breeder net (they would stick to the inside). When the babies hatch expect a 5 - 10 day hatching with 2 - 5 per night. Be sure the breeder net has a selection of small shells to choose from (more than the number of fry in the net).

GOOD LUCK!

1/21/08

An arm emerges....

Today we offered Varys a thawed mysis shrimp by pipetting it into the gravel right next to one narrow opening to her den. She waited a moment before an arm began investigating and then the mysis disappeared.

Thereafter, she responded immediately to the pipette by waving arms outside the den to collect more pieces of mysis (directly from the pipette and sometimes with almost frenetic enthusiasm) - at one point she ignored the mysis and wrapped 2 arms around the pipette, pulling it steadily toward the entrance (to investigate it, I suppose). After all, it was clearly a "mysis dispenser" -- might want to look into having one on hand right inside the den.

It's a relief to see some activity. She seemed to be ravenous! Later this evening she also accepted an offering of cyclopeeze for dessert. Gotta admire the dedication it takes to be a brooding octo-mom!

Thanks for the feeding tips, D.

Most excellent! If my experience holds, she should eat nightly with no further problems (you may have an occassional night of minimal feeding). I didn't try frozen mysis (I don't know why not since I keep plenty on hand) and I think variety is a very good idea so please keep reporting what she will and will not accept. Trapper also showed that frantic arm movement (no so much with Miss Broody but she continued to eat larger shrimp much longer than Trapper, was likely younger when she laid eggs and was tank raised and accustomed to being hand fed). I am really enjoying your reports and don't feel so much like the Lone Mercatoris Ranger!

I would nix the idea of keeping a pipette sitting inside the den. Both my girls were very clear about not wanting things put inside, even food as keeping the den clean seems to be an important part of the brooding process. And, yes, you will likely be spending at least 30 min a night with her :sleeping:

I would nix the idea of keeping a pipette sitting inside the den. Both my girls were very clear about not wanting things put inside, even food as keeping the den clean seems to be an important part of the brooding process.

Sorry for the confusion... we didn't mean to imply that we were actually thinking about putting the pipette in the den... it was just a poor attempt at humor -- octopus mind-reading!

At any rate... she accepted frozen mysids and/or cyclopeez for three straight nights before rejecting all attempts last night (1/24). Tried krill first... it was a no-go. She just blew it away from the entrance. Tried cyclopeez next and that was completely ignored. She's still moving around, so no worries there. We were thinking of trying very small pieces of silverside tonight... maybe try mysids again if that doesn't work.

We're trying to set up a culture of large amphipods (gammarus) this weekend... The math associated with feeding baby octopuses is a bit intimidating... 2-3 amphipods/mysids per day times 12 babies (very optimistic)... equals 24-36 per day... times 7 days in a week... you can all see where this is going. There's no way we could harvest that many from our existing tanks so I got permission to collect the filters from the tanks at work with the hopes that I can induce some of the amphipods living in them to come out into a refugium at home. (All of my colleagues are really excited and eager to help any way they can!) I'm sure we'll be buying live mysids online in the very near future too, but this amphipod thing gives us something to do.

Sorry for the mundane nature of this post, but it's just a bunch of "hurry-up and wait" on this end. :)

Tiny 2-4 mm chunks of silverside are a hit... she has an arm out waving around for another piece as I'm typing this.

Oops, guess it was similar to my family suggesting that I main-line coffee!

Keep offering tiny dead food daily. There were a few days my girls just were not hungry but (I mentioned that you might see this on occassion) for most of the brooding cycle, they ate daily.

As for mine, Miss Broody is nowhere to be seen and I am afraid she may have died behind the shell that is wedged in the LR. A serpent star had been staying very near the shell up until two days ago (I could sometimes locate my octos by the location of the serpents) but has now moved to a different part of the tanks so I fear the worst for her. The two males continue to eat regularly and the five (or six, still don't know for sure) babies are growing faster than their parents did on Cyclop-eeze and small shore shrimp. I have some frozen Krill and clam that I will try to feed later this week. None of my others would eat either but your success with different food suggests I should try again. Thanks!

Interesting observation tonight. We tried a new offering- a small ~5mm chunk of clam. Varys ignored it on the pipette, and so we deposited it at the entrance to her den. She continued to ignore the clam offering, and we were thinking about removing it... especially when we saw that it had attracted the attention of a decent-sized bristleworm, which started down after it.

As soon as the bristleworm got close, within 1-2 mm distance from "her" chunk of clam, that arm came whipping out and she snatched the clam. Then she seemed to like it... waved around for another piece. After the bristleworm was out of sight, we deposited another bit of clam for Varys, but the bristleworm was apparently poised and ready to go because it immediately appeared again and honed in on the clam and started to abscond with it. Varys shot out an arm and got herself "stung" trying to take her clam back! The bristleworm won that round and Varys was left literally "shaking it off" with little flicks and wiggles on the end of the arm that touched the bristleworm.

We were worried about our girl, since they have such sensitive skin, but she seems to be ok. Since then, she's accepted 4 more tasty chunks of clam, which is more than she's ever eaten since holing up with her eggs! =)

Somewhere in one of my posts (Miss Broody, I think) I also saw a similar, "Thats MINE" reaction with both a bristleworm and a serpent star (I think the serpent incident was with Trapper) so your posted observation helps to confirm some of my own notes on behavior.

I have tons of bristles in the larger tank (not as bad in the smaller one) and plan to try my gravel vacuum soon to reduce the number but a lot of them live in the LR in addition to the sand where the vacuum won't do much good. They don't seem to be a problem for the octos though and help keep the excess feeding (especially with the babies) from polluting the tank. If Miss Broody has, indeed expired, they will help there as well but I have not seen a group of them clustering anywhere. Not a fitting end but nature helping out in my mini piece of the ocean.

Rigby does it too... he lets the bristles slowly come out and when he thinks they have gotten close enough he swats at them and they retract to start the journy again and he will wait until they get close and do it again...

We had a glimpse of Varys' eggs with the red penlight tonight and didn't see embryos, but maybe that's not sufficient illumination. On the bright side, no sign of fouling or decay, either. Hope springs eternal =)

Ate 2 ghost shrimp (freshly killed), 3-4 frozen mysids, and some pieces of silverside tonight. We're having a pretty good time with feeding this girl. She makes us laugh. She's quirky.

She takes her time, but hustles to beat the bristleworm if need be.

If she really doesn't want it, she blows it away, otherwise it's just a matter of time. We've made the mistake of trying to remove a piece of food we thought she wasn't interested in with the pipette, and she will snatch it away from the pipette as fast as she can.

If we get involved doing something else and don't put the next food item in in a timely manner, she waves at us.

Oh, and you DON'T put any offerings near tiny den entrance number one. Only near tiny den entrance number two. She will routinely blow the food back from entrance one, but will accept it immediately moments later from entrance two. (These entrances are approximately 3 cm apart). No idea why this is the law, but apparently it is. =)

I can't help with what to expect with the eggs as I have yet to see even a glimpse of one :hmm:.

Varys is certainly eating very well. Trapper would take one crab or one shrimp a night (I did not know to try the Cyclop-eeze until feeding the fry). I wonder if she would have taken more if I tried again later but then she did not eat as early as my captive raised. My four males will only take one shrimp OR an occassional live crab (they are eating more crabs now than ever before, however) so I extremely impressed with both the quantity and variety you are able to feed.

One thing I did get Trapper to do (but not Miss Broody) was to extend an arm and touch my finger on the glass (my finger was on the outside). She would only do this once a night, usually in acknowledgement that I was there to feed, and would do it with me most nights once she started.

:baby: :baby: :baby: :baby: :baby: :baby:

We have embryos!

http://www.tonmo.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=4&pictureid=57

:smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke:

congrats!

Woohoo!

Congratulations! You have a good change of being able to raise the hatchlings.

Nancy

fantastic thread. it's exciting to follow the brooding process. congrats on the inhabited eggs, and excellent photos. keep them coming!

YES! It is great that you can photograph the eggs (let alone SEE them)! Ditto on Mikewise request!!

Been awhile since we updated, and really not too much exciting to report. Varys has a pattern of eating well for about 3 days then blowing food away on the fourth day. Overall favorite for her is frozen mysids but rejects even those on her off nights. We've been making an effort to re-photograph the eggs but she's been too fast at covering them up when she notices that camera. Kinda odd that she'll let us look at the eggs but hides them from the camera.

Now they're quite "plump" as though they were about to burst, and we can try to describe them: you can distiguish the mantle and 2 eyes, and at this point the mantle is oriented down, so that the baby is basically hanging upside down, but Varys sometimes has an arm under, and keeps the eggs oriented sideways. On the egg that we can see best, there's another smaller dark spot that's down where the distal end of the tentacles would be... maybe just a fired-up chromatophore?

Valentine's Day 2/14/08 will be exactly 4 weeks since we first spotted the eggs. We're going out for a nice dinner.... wouldn't it be cool to find little "ticks" on the glass when we get home?

If Vary's eggs hatch like Trappers and Miss Broody's, you will only see 2 to 5 a night so start watching Vary (intentional miss-spelling ;>) closely. Other's (with different species) have reported mass hatchings and "snow" but with the count you have, I expect something similar to my own experience. Remember these are "white" ticks and it will take careful observation to see them (hopefully you are using a red light most/all of the time). I don't think I ever spotted them during the day.:fingerscrossed:

We're 30+ days into the egg development and Varys is proving rather uncooperative when it comes to getting a decent photo these days. :banghead: She actually does appear to see the red light when we shine it into her den, as she quickly covers up the eggs and shakes a tentacle our way. Any attempts to use a white light have had the same effect... until tonight. Using a white LED flashlight we were able to get one good pic:
http://www.tonmo.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=4&pictureid=62

...and a brief movie (9Mb) (http://www.occc.edu/gholland/varys/eggs.mov) (I've quit using youtube because of the poor quality after conversion). Give the movie a minute to load after clicking on the link... even though it says "done", it will take a few seconds. You can definitely see all the little brown chromatophores on the babies now and sometimes they even move inside the eggs (can't see them moving inside the eggs on the movie though, just Varys doing her thing).


They look like they're ready to pop any time... Can't be long now! We're working on individual containers for each of the babies... just to insure that we don't have any issues with cannibalism and so we can feed and view them more easily. Promotional materials for the "Mercaplex Octominiums" will be made available ASAP!

Greg,
You might want to rethink the baby containers slightly. I used breeding nets inside the main tank for three reasons.
1. Food density - If the food is too scattered they will not get enough to eat. By keeping several in one container, you can keep the concentration higher at feeding time with more consumption.
2. Because of 1, you will need a way to clean out the containers and refresh the water on a continuous basis.
3. Water movement. I believe the babies need a continuous water flow (at least in the first few weeks). I am not sure if this is to keep the food moving or to help with respiration but I believe it is necessary. I have a power head directed at the net during the day but now turn it off at night.

As for the red light, mine notice the LED flashlight but not my overhead lights (red are on 24/7). The octos in the small tank have a type of outdoor florescent with a red lens and it has never effected them negatively. The larger tank has a set of red LED's that seem to be OK but if I move it around they do notice so I am thinking that the LED spectrum is more visible.

I also have another thought on my disappearing young. It has not made much sense that they were consuming each other (I know this did not happen with the first group as all but one survived). If the babies try to eat a shrimp that is close to their mantle size, there is always considerable left over that stays in the net for me to clean up but most of the young just disappeared with no trace of corpse. However, last night I caught one of the adult males inside the empty breeder and it got me thinking about the possibility that they may be the culprits (very late/early since I have never seen this before). With the first group, only the mother was present in the main tank. This time around there are two adult males and I am leaning toward this as an explanation (anictodotal to be sure but the dissapearances have had no other satisfactory conclusion). You might consider a couple set off individually and several in a breeder net to see if one group fares better than the other.

Also, you will have to give them small shells or LR (shells are recommended) to use as dens so photography will be very difficult and they are very sensitive to flash. The two that I kept without dens (but in a darkened environment) died very early, as did the one little guy that was active during the day.

I keep watching for your birth announcements!

D- thanks for the input. Shame on those adult males!

Well, we had several reasons to want to separate them. We mainly want to be able to monitor the feeding of each individual and eventually we hope to be able to recognize appearance and personality differences that may develop. Cannibalism may not be an issue but then again, it only takes one with cannabalistic tendencies to theoretically cause a problem.

Our thinking was: the pro of the breeder net is the water movement allowed through the net, which naturally has to be better than stagnating water in a "cup". We figured that any type of holes drilled into the more solid container that would be numerous and large enough to allow for good water flow would also be easily escapable for a tiny octopus baby. However, the cons of the breeder net are that it's hard to see inside unless you're looking down from above, and they're not easily divided into smaller containers if there is an issue with aggression between babies.

So, we are working on a combination floating container that will have the back and bottom side composed of breeder net, and these will be oriented such that the return flow from the filter is directed at the rear net portion. The front of the containers is clear plastic for observation. They'll each have a couple of small shells to choose from in their containers. We think that particulate waste matter can be pipetted out, and "surface skimming water changes" are easily performed by dunking or partially lifting the container out of the water and allowing new water to flow in...

We'll get a picture of these when they're ready and hopefully get some feedback.

Sounds like an interesting and potentially successful set up if there is enough room for each of the babies to swim and hunt the tiny food. Dunking should be no problem during the day as it is almost a guarantee that they will be inside at that time. I am all but certain that Varys won't be a problem and I am not totally sure the males have been. However, I have and still do see them hanging out by the nets at night. I assumed they were just eating the Cyclop-eeze that washes through the net but now I can't be sure.

I am looking forward to the pictures of your contraption! You might try an experiment with the water movement in a bucket to be sure you will have current through the chambers. I am not sure what you could use as a dye, but maybe just some food placed at one end and see how it moves about.

Well... I just fed Varys a piece of krill and sat around waiting to see if she would want another piece or spit it out. She seemed to eat most of it, but spit a small bit of leftovers. I tried to coax her into trying another piece, but when I went to put it in front of her den... she spit out a baby! :baby:

I can now see two of the little twerps swimming and crawling around the tank... where's the camera...

Whoo HOO! I've been watching for this post!

Now to CATCH them ;>). I used a number of methods but found that Jean's favorite (turkey baster) did not work too well. It was the easiest way to catch them but VERY difficult to get them OUT of the baster. If you have a VERY fine net (brine shrimp fine) that works but anything with even medium openings could be a disaster. When I could get them in my hand, this was the best technique but not always doable.

Now to CATCH them ;>).

NO KIDDING! Wow. They went to ground very quickly, burying under rubble and rocks... still trying...

Mine, at least, all went to the wall at night. I would wait until they come out to the tank wall and not attempt to get them out of the LR.

Pictures?

No pics yet... I had gently herded one baby out of the rocks and onto the wall using a chop-stick and as soon as I grabbed the camera... SWOOSH! Off it went under the opposite end of the large rock that Varys is under. No sign of the second baby. They are larger than I expected... and totally brown except for a brief moment when the one went white as I was prodding it.

This makes 36 days since we first spotted the eggs... maybe 39 or 40 days since Varys first disappeared and went into "broody mode". Water temperature remained between 74 and 76 F.

I guess I'll leave them alone for now and get some sleep since I need to get up early... I'll try again tomorrow. Good thing I manged to finish the Mercaplex Octominiums! So very exciting! I really need an octopus wrangler emoticon! HAHA

:band: :welcome: :baby::cheers:

Got back out of bed about half an hour later and took several shots including this little poser...

http://www.tonmo.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=4&pictureid=66

It's about 5 mm wide and this is just minutes after it got spit out of the den. I counted 5 last night and could still 4 when I woke up this morning. Gotta run now... :grin:

Nice shot.

We were so wiped out after the late night and early morning that we didn't stay up late enough to see most of the babies last night, but we did find two. The plan was to capture them and begin isolating them in the Mercaplex Octominiums and we did manage to catch one using a 2 oz measuring cup instead of a baster. (We had spotted it buried under the coral right next to the glass front, so we were able to scoop it and the rubble out together. Even then, it shot out of the rubble and nearly escaped over the side of the cup before we could tip it into the octominium!!) The other baby we almost caught must have known how to teleport because one minute it was in the cup, the next it was gone... nowhere to be seen. :new_beammeup:

The one we did manage to wrangle is now the first occupant of the Octominiums. It seemed to respond to bits of cyclopeez gently targeted at it and we added a few amphipods for it to hunt. By this morning it had taken up residence in one of the shells:

http://www.tonmo.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=11&pictureid=72

Here's a view of the containers in Varys' tank.

http://www.tonmo.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=11&pictureid=70 http://www.tonmo.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=11&pictureid=71

We have several more units ready to go into other tanks as well. Of course, we'll have to catch the little squirts before all our hard work can be of any use. More pics and details on the containers are listed in our "Mercaplex Octominiums" gallery (http://www.tonmo.com/forums/album.php?albumid=11). Circulation seems to be very gentle but distinct with the water return nozzle directed at the netting covering the backs of the containers.

how many do you have? do you plan on putting on in each?

I bought a turkey baster today so I could try Jean's method... It can take a little effort to coax some of them out of the tube, but it works really well! The only thing I had to figure out was that after I sucked them up and lifted the baster out of the water, I had to immediately put the tip of the baster over the container I wanted to deposit them in or some of them would swim right back down the tube and PLOP themselves back into the tank. I don't know how many I thought I had caught only to wonder why the container and baster were both empty!

As of this moment, I'm happy to report that we have 6 babies in the three units that are in Varys' tank. Not sure whether to try moving 3 of them out and into the 3 containers in another tank or not. D... you didn't seem to have any problems as long as they were well fed right? (And no adult males in the tank!) They all seem to be accepting the cyclopeez which is good since my order from Sachs is still some time away (long story). One actually inked a couple of times, but I removed those and all seems well.

I know there was at least one more egg in the den last night so there could still be more hiding out. Here's a few pics of the current "oc"cupants...

http://www.tonmo.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=4&pictureid=73 http://www.tonmo.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=4&pictureid=74 http://www.tonmo.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=4&pictureid=75

Very cool,it must be "fun".

Dread,
Thanks to D and everyone else who has advised us here... it's a total blast!

Be great if you could do that for a living huh.

Greg,
With the first batch, I only had 6 and kept them all in a large breeder net. I had them in the standard type net for a short time and lost the one when it climbed up the net and couldn't find the water but the other five lived together for several months before I split them into groups of two and three and after 11+ months the males are all still alive but showing signs of old age (Miss Broody was never seen again after the second mating). My second brood has not faired well but I don't think it is from babies eating babies. The young started to come out for feeding early but then started disappearing and not coming out when I would feed. Now I think it may have been the adult males entering the nets causing the extreme shyness and loss of young but this is only conjecture.

WATCH OUT! If you THINK you have a baby in the baster and then it does not come out, do not assume it slipped out the bottom. They are very hard to see in the baster. Be sure you completely refill the baster if you think one escaped and check again with it full of water. Mine would stick to the inside of the baster and were all but invisible with no water.

Love the Mercaplex Octominiums!

We're up to 11 or 12 babies now... can't keep track!

We're up to 11 or 12 babies now... can't keep track!

It gets harder to count!:grin:

Ah... where to begin? (Get some popcorn, this could take a while :popcorn:)

So the eggs started hatching on Friday (2/22) and continued through about Tuesday (2/26). Varys had pretty much stopped accepting food by this point. At that time, at total of 15 babies had shown up and we removed each into the octominiums as we found them (we had six units set up). By 2/25, we had already lost 5 babies. Nitrate was high (20-30 ppm) so we did water changes and moved the remaining babies in their octominiums to another tank just to be safe. We never did actually see one of the babies eat any of the amphipods we had put into the octominiums or any of the cyclopeeze we targeted at them. At this point, we began to suspect that food was an issue as well. The babies seemed to lose function and coordination of their arms and curled up into sad little balls that eventually couldn't hold on to anything and wafted around in the current. It was tragic! :cry: Needless to say, we were horrified and ashamed. By Thursday (2/28), all of the remaining babies were dead and no new ones had hatched in 2 or 3 days. We were so depressed at this point that we didn't want to get online and have to write about it.
:goodbye:

On Friday (2/29), the live mysids and gamma pods showed up (the timing was our fault, not the supplier's fault). We were about to leave town, so we dumped them into the other reef tanks to feed our other critters while we were out of town for the weekend. We spent the weekend consoling ourselves, trying to figure how we would do things differently next time... although we both agreed that "next time" wouldn't be anytime soon.

We were wrong.

When we got home on Sunday evening (3/2), we were stunned to find 3 new babies in Varys' tank! :bugout: By the next morning, we had spotted 6. The morning after that, we spotted 10. This put the total up around 25 babies? We can only guess that when we first saw the eggs, Varys was only halfway done, and continued to lay a bunch more afterward.

So. Time to implement all those things we had discussed!

#1 Quit using the octominiums. 100% mortality rate = bad. Babies were left in Varys' tank.
#2 Get live foods ASAP. By this point, our LFS had managed to get in a shipment of "Tigger Pods" (Tigriopus californicus -- basically live cyclopeeze).
#3 Order more live food from Sachs.
#4 Stuff Varys' tank with a ridiculous amount of macro algae (with many gamma and amphipods living in it) and start turning on the whites and actinics during the day to help reduce nitrates.
#5 Get gamma pods from the filter media in the saltwater tanks at the college.
#6 Pray.

The results?

On Monday night (3/3), the babies immediately began feeding on the tigger pods. We turned out the light in the octo tank, but left the actinics on in the mantis tank next to it. This attracted all of the little red pods to that wall where they concentrate like moths under a porch light. The babies lined the wall with their little arms shooting this way and that, snagging pods and stuffing their little mouths.
(Video of 3 babies chasing tigger pods on the glass) (http://www.occc.edu/gholland/varys/3babies.mov)

They are usually very good about giving each other space, but occassional non-violent encounters and startled inkings occured. On Wednesday evening (3/5), four of the babies accepted frozen mysid heads from the end of a pipette! :grin: But that is tiring work and requires the patience of Job! They fed from the pipette again the next morning. On Thursday night, we added about 30 gamma pods collected from the tanks at work and several of the babies continued to eat the tigger pods, but they had no luck catching the larger gamma pods.

We weren't out of the woods yet though (and may not be even now). By Friday (3/7) afternoon, 3 babies had died, so we did more water changes. Fortunately, the live mysids showed up later that day. All 200 mysids went right into the tank with the babies. It was a madhouse! At least five of the babies showed up to catch live mysids.

And then, a moment of panic! It looked as though one of the babies had actually caught one of the other babies and was trying to eat it! A few gentle proddings with a bamboo skewer weren't enough to make it let go. It kept stumbling along the the glass and then trying to swim away while tenaciously clutching its great big dinner.

:octorun: "This is mine and you can't have it!" :octorun:

Fortunately, when the baby swam away, it was easier to see its catch and we realized that it had actually nabbed an enormous gamma pod that was at least as big as the little octo itself!
:cheers:

One of the babies was out during "lights on" today, and we aren't sure what to make of that, but it did go back into hiding a short while later. We hope this is not a sign of impending doom. (Baby daywalker video) (http://www.occc.edu/gholland/varys/baby02.mov)

So... it's been quite a roller-coaster ride. We are definitely doing better with the second half of this batch, but overall, we've had a 75% mortality rate and obviously aren't very good at this. Poor Varys. All that self-sacrifice and effort. We've never had this much difficulty with any of our other saltwater inverts (even some of the more delicate ones) and felt like helpless, hapless idiots. We really want to keep these last few kiddos alive and would welcome any additional advice.

Be great if you could do that for a living huh.

Uhh... in light of recent events, we've elected to keep our day jobs.

:razz:

videos arent working :cry: :cry: :cry:

Sorry to hear about you first group of baby's.but I'm glad to hear some have made it so far.good luck!

videos arent working :cry: :cry: :cry:

They won't start playing until they download completely (your browser may say it's done long before it really is)... be patient. Or right click and save the file to your harddrive first.

Greg,
Great videos! I have been fretting that you haven't posted.

After your experience with the octominiums and my 99% (I still have one and a second is once again loose in the tank and may or may not be alive) mortality rate, I would agree that feeding is the primary issue. When I only had 6, I only lost one when I had over 20 I lost almost all of them and I have been leaning toward feeding density as a factor. Unlike you, I only found the bodies of about 4, the rest disappeared. I turned off the flow in the net at night to allow more food to stay in the net and this may have been a mistake. With the first ones, I did this after they were several days (maybe even a couple of weeks, I didn't record the timing) old. The flow may have helped the Cyclop-eeze seem more like live food and possibly should have been left on at night or at least turned back on after an hour.

Another possible factor is the age of the babies. I know that in cuttles, if they hatch before totally consuming the yolk sack they are unlikely to survive. The first that died within a couple of days may have hatched too early while the later ones may have matured enough to make it.:fingerscrossed:

Water quality is always a concern with octos and I do pretty heafty water changes on a regular basis (especially since Miss Broody disappeared and now MIA has not been seen for a week). However, my two most active adults (Sisturus and Medusa) live in a 15 gallon tank, are a week shy of a year old and remain active and interactive as well as continuing to eat well. HideNSeek (in the 45 gallon tank with the breeder net) has become more recluse and no longer not shows up for dinner but I have been able to locate him nightly and the crabs continue to disappear. The water quality in the larger tank should be better than in the smaller one - at least as far as nitrates are concerned - so I am disinclined to think that the water is a factor in my case.

Quick update on Varys: our momma merc is still in the den. She does not come out and she rejects food. She may be eating pods but we haven't seen it.

Now the fun part: Update on Varys' kids....

We have 8 survivors! They are hunting and eating fine, and have started some entertaining behaviors.

One we like to call "Skimmer" .... he hangs at the water surface like an upside-down water strider. It's happened twice but we weren't fast enough with the camera the second time. (The first time we were too dumbstruck to do anything but stare with puzzled intensity and mouths agape). He splays his arms out and rides the current around the tank several times using the surface tension. Any ideas what he's doing? He's healthy and vigorous and knows how to hunt. Might be just something to do for fun and entertainment....

We had to fish another out of the sump. We watched the little booger ooze through the fiberglass window screen that we had siliconed over the slots that allow water flow into the back chambers of the Biocube. (It worked for Varys, but the baby did indeed prove that anything they can get the beak through, they can get the whole body through!) This guy was probably up there because the amphipods sometimes collect up there. Couldn't get him to go back through- instead the little turd went over the next chamber and down into the bioballs. :banghead: All is well, but it took removing bioballs one by one and inspecting the interior of each bioball until FINALLY finding the one he was hanging out in. Then we put the bioball into the main tank so he could come out on his own.

They do scare each other when one tries to enter a shell already occupied by a sibling. The occupant will come out with arms waving, and somebody will ink. Not sure which one inks. They're fun to watch when they're stalking and pouncing gamma-pods. They're not very talented but they do occasionally score.

It's 8pm here, and we turned out the light 10 or 15 minutes ago. Seven babies are already out. Just recieved 500 new live mysids... Paul Sachs has been great about getting them out the door and to us quickly. Time to feed these kids.

Here's a photo of one baby hanging out on some red macroalgae. We think the picture shows a little bit of attidude. They're a lot of fun. :smile:

The one hanging upside down may be eating stuff at the top of the water. Sisturus and to a lesser exent Medusa come to the surface and flop upside down (not swimming though) at feeding time. Since I feed Cyclop-eeze every night in addition to shrimp or crab every other night, I am sure that they are catching the Cyclop-eeze with their suckers.

Your little ones are much more entertaining than mine were at this age but mine were in much smaller quarters until they were 5 months old. My one remaining captive bred almost never comes out of her shell except to change to a larger shell. I worry that she is not eating enough but she continues to survive and has changed up to her third shell this week.

After stuffing themselves on live mysids the previous night, the babies barely even showed themselves last night. Two of them did start closing the entrances to their shells with pieces of gravel though. Not surprisingly, these two shells are the same ones where the repeated "intrusions" have happened... kinda like putting a NO VACANCY sign on the doorknob. :lol: We've now seen as many as ten of the little squirts at one time!

great pic!

Thanks monty. It's kinda interesting that they don't seem to be bothered by repeated flashes (it's a pain to get it to illuminate the subject on a closeup like that), and yet, the little green light on the camera seems to send them scurrying!

We lost Varys today... :cry:

3 months after we got her, and 1 month after her eggs began hatching. She had been refusing food ever since her eggs started hatching and as far as we know, never came out of her den after she entered it to start brooding... until today.

Varys came out this afternoon with the lights on and I spent an hour or so petting and photographing her. She was so weak and had lost much of her color. We knew this was coming, but it seemed so sudden because she hasn't been out and feeding the way D's mercs have been doing as they get older.

She is survived by 10 or so hatchlings that are now about 10 days old and eating well.

RIP Varys :angelpus: :sad:

RIP Varys. :angelpus:

Very nice pic of her and glad you were able to spend time with her on her last day.

Good luck with the little ones!

Nancy

Greg,
Thanks for posting the last day picture as I think it helps to collect info on aging and pictures show so much that you might miss when just looking. One of the things I notice that I had seen but not thought was something that may be common is the almost squarish shape to the mantle. If you look a the end of Trapper's thread you will see a picture of her in her last days and the mantle is the same. Also, the eyes seem cloudy and I am noticing this in one of Sisty's as well but I don't remember if this was true with Trap. Varys shows much more color than Trapper did but she survived almost 12 weeks after the hatching (I think 4-5 weeks may be normal for the Mercs second guessing from the few that have been documented here). I feel comfortable in saying that whether or not they eat is a major determination on life extension. I spiked Trapper's shrimp with a small amout of antibiotic as an infection preventative. Not having a control animal, I don't know if there was any positive effect. None of mine have ever shown external infection but the cloudy eye may be a sign of something internal. I have not given antibiotics to the males but may consider it soon. The weakness was also very evident with Trapper and she could barely climb the tank wall. It appeared that she just fell off when I found her a couple of hours after feeding time.

Miss Broody was very young when she produced eggs. After the hatching she did not look weak or have problems coloring and I had high hopes she would live a lot longer . Unfortunately, with the second mating she left her tank front den and simply disappeared. I still think she was hiding up in the crevice where I noticed the oddly placed shell but I never saw an arm come looking for food and I believe she starved. The shell shifted at about 4 weeks and dropped completely after about 8 with no sign of what held it in place.

MIA (male) just disappeared without any obvious symptoms. Sisty is very white and only eating Cyclop-eeze most of the time (I think he ate a shrimp tonight for the first time in over a week, he definiately took it but continued to hold my fingers so I am not sure if he ate it or it just fell into the shell he was sitting in). Medusa still has good color but is fisty and stays angry red a good bit of the time and HideNSeek is somewhere in between (but has started to show up again for nightly feedings).

I am sorry that Varys did not stay out for a few days at least (here again Trapper was a little unusual because her final walk lasted almost 2 weeks in stead of the more typical 1 day and Sisty has gone back to coming out later rather than staying out in the day light). Trapper would sit on my hand as long as I could keep my arm in the water (I think the soft skin texture had something to do with her contentment) and no longer had any kind of fear. Somehow they almost seem like little puppies at this stage but it makes their passing all the harder.

I wish more of my captive bred had survived as it would have been worth the risks to try swapping a couple but I only have the two left from this line. I had thought about trying to get another adult female but, with luck, I will be attempting a couple of JoeFish's Briarius next month.

About a week ago, we moved Varys into the 20 gallon tank that was originally intended to be her home before she laid eggs in the other tank. We knew the end was coming and didn't want to risk it happening while we were away and possibly causing water quality issues for the babies. I was very fortunate that this was spring break so I was at home instead of teaching.

Here's a clip (http://www.occc.edu/gholland/varys/varys04.mov) of my first (and only) chance for real finger-to-tentacle contact with Varys. When I first saw her sitting out, I put my hand in and she grabbed me. She then crawled about halfway onto my hand before I got nervous and withdrew it. I wasn't sure how much I trusted her since we hadn't played that game before. Now I'm sorry I didn't let her climb on...

Early yesterday, while she was still inside her new barnacle home, the shore shrimp in the tank would come poking around and she would swat them away... she even caught one and pulled it inside, but then let it go. Later, while I was petting her, I was horrified when I realized that one of them was actually eating the tip of her arm! I quickly removed them from the tank, but by that point she was fading fast.

She definitely had cloudy eyes and you can see how heavily she was breathing and how non-responsive she was in the video. I had hoped she would last quite a bit longer since she seemed to eat some while brooding... but maybe she was older than Trapper was when she started?

I don't think we mentioned it before, but Mr. George R.R. Martin actually posted the pic we sent him on his fan pages (http://www.georgerrmartin.com/fans/index.html). He's a funny guy... he was very quick to point out that his character Varys is nicknamed "The Spider", not "The Octopus"... Well, at least we had the correct number of legs! I expect we will have to start naming the babies after Theon and the Greyjoy clan whose symbol is a kraken. (And if Mr. Martin happens to read this, we're still waiting for that next book! :wink:)

Varys was definitely a great, first cephalopod experience and again, our thanks to you D and everyone else who helped us and Varys through it!

R.I.P. Varys
3/19/08

The babies now have their own journal (http://www.tonmo.com/forums/showthread.php?p=113891#post113891).
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