Hi

Welcome to Physiology & Biology, where we will attempt to answer those technical questions you might have on aspects of cephalopod biology, systematics (as in: what species is this? How do I identify my species? What makes this different from that? Where might I go to find out this or that?), and physiology (none of us is a physiologist, so help will be needed here from the cephalopod community). It is a huge field, and sometimes some of the responses will be taken straight from text books, sometimes we'll make them up and then duck for cover, and sometimes we might have to leave them in the 'too hard' basket, but we'll do our best. Moreover, for some questions there may be no known answer, or we might not know it (highly likely), but as many experts check out www.TONMO.com, I'm sure an answer will be forthcoming.

There are a number of online articles:
Guide to frequently used characters, character states and measures in cephalopods,
Articles on Architeuthis (the giant squid) reproduction and buoyancy, and large-squid-fixing notes,
Fact sheets on Architeuthis, Mesonychoteuthis (the colossal squid) and a few other squids that attain 'giant size',
And cephalopod biology, to name a few.

We've also gone LIVE with SQUIDCAM; see the same-titled thread right here. Lighting will be a challenge (for non-southern hemisphere folk at night), but as we'll have to have 24-hr lighting on the tank (albeit reduced at night, necessary to keep these visual predators alive), you should be able to see something. We'll also establish regular feeding times, so you can tune in and watch them devour their prey, 1-1.5 times their own size.

If you are interested in researching cephalopod systematics, or aspects of their biology or ecology, a number of research possibilities are detailed as announcements in this forum. That's not to say that this is the only research being conducted down here (in wonderful New Zealand), and if you have something else you'd like to do then you are more than welcome to approach us with ideas.

This thread has recently been split into two: Physiology & Biology of Cephs, and Marine Conservation. We've done this so as to more easily track the two types of thread. There is a lot of overlap between the two, and a few parallel discussions, so don't forget to check out Marine Conservation also (where you can learn all about the importance of cephalopods in ecosystems, and in the diet of whales and fish).

A lot of information posted on these threads can only be found on TONMO. Sometimes we post information that has yet to be published; some of it might never be published; sometimes we are thinking out aloud (and we might change our mind after discussion); sometimes we simply have fun. Join in.

Tony has done a marvelous job setting this up, and we thank him here for all of his help.

Read on, enjoy, and thanks for tuning in.
The team

http://www.tonmo.com/phpBB/download.php?id=3362

Over the coming weeks Tintenfisch and I will post some 'you read it here first' articles. Welcome to TONMO.com live!

Over the coming weeks Tintenfisch and I will post some 'you read it here first' articles. Welcome to TONMO.com live!
Rock on! :band:

:shock:

…Meanwhile, on a bed of papyrus floating in the South Pacific, a most strange phenomenon was underway.

......oh dear. Are Queen Sheetal and the tutu-clad cane toads about to be resurrected? That brings back fond memories of early days :goofysca: :heee:

Hi everyone! I'm new to tonmo.com, and I'm so glad I found my way here. Now I can ask questions and get answers! HOORAY!!! :D

I've got a proposition for all the folks out looking for Architeuthis. What if it's at the poles? It makes sense, doesn't it? The places they wash up and/or are caught trawling most (South Africa, New Zealand, Newfoundland, etc.) are right at the end of currents that circulate down/up from the poles! The water there is certainly cold enough for the ammonia to have neutral buoyancy (except when it gets too cold and it becomes less dense). I agree with the idea that New Zealand is just a breeding ground, so they probably die from exhaustion and rise to the surface after breeding.

Is this plausible to anyone else or am I crazy :jester: ?

~BigSquid8Me

I've got a proposition for all the folks out looking for Architeuthis. What if it's at the poles? It makes sense, doesn't it? The places they wash up and/or are caught trawling most (South Africa, New Zealand, Newfoundland, etc.) are right at the end of currents that circulate down/up from the poles! The water there is certainly cold enough for the ammonia to have neutral buoyancy (except when it gets too cold and it becomes less dense). I agree with the idea that New Zealand is just a breeding ground, so they probably die from exhaustion and rise to the surface after breeding.


Not a crazy proposition at all, but I don't think (I must stress 'think') this is the case.

There are two 'populations' of Architeuthis found in New Zealand waters; a West Coast South Island winter-spawning 'population' and an East Coast South Island summer-spawning 'population'. There is no genetic evidence to suggest that these two 'populations' belong to different species, although they are of comparable age, sex-ratio and size-class structure. The summer-spawning East Coast specimens almost invariably are caught beneath surface waters (~ 500 m depth) with a subantarctic water temperature signature, and the West Coast specimens almost invariably are caught beneath waters with a subtropical surface temperature signature (satelite imagery) - quite bizarre really because you would expect it to be the other way around. However, what surface temperatures tell us about water temperatures at 500 m is unknown (it is all I have to go by, that's all). Usually Architeuthis are caught in waters at temperatures between 7 and 9 degrees Celcius.

The paralarvae (= larvae) of Architeuthis have been caught in waters of subtropical nature, or those where the two subtropical and subantarctic water masses converge, but not in Antarctic waters. Moreover, adult/subadult Architeuthis have not been taken/trawled in Antarctic waters.

It is likely that Architeuthis is an oceanic species, living at ~ 500 metres depth in the middle of nowhere, tropical to subantarctic, until it nears maturity and migrates in to coastal regions to breed. Because both adults and paralarvae are caught in subtropical/subantarctic waters it is likely that the entire life is spent within waters of this nature. The missing/intermediate-sized individuals will occur outside of New Zealand waters, where there's not a lot of open-ocean trawling going on (at 500 metres depth). I believe this explains why the subadults/juveniles are so rare in collections (three 'juveniles' known/reported).
Cheers
O

Steve,

Thanks for the fascinating information.

I don't think that I have ever asked you this before, but have you ever had the opportunity to examine any specimens of Architeuthis from North Atlantic waters? I am under the impression that there is little, if any, genetic variation from the South Pacific/Sub Antarctic specimens.

If they are separate populations then why are they so similar? Surely they would demonstrate some degree of speciation if the populations do not mix. Or, on the other hand, do you think there is basically one population that does indeed cross the equator and is truly global?

Cheers,

Phil

Steve,

Thanks for the fascinating information.

I don't think that I have ever asked you this before, but have you ever had the opportunity to examine any specimens of Architeuthis from North Atlantic waters? I am under the impression that there is little, if any, genetic variation from the South Pacific/Sub Antarctic specimens.

If they are separate populations then why are they so similar? Surely they would demonstrate some degree of speciation if the populations do not mix. Or, on the other hand, do you think there is basically one population that does indeed cross the equator and is truly global?

Cheers,

Phil

Heavens, I don't know how this post escaped my attention Phil; sorry - it's been ~ a month to the day.

There is no apparent genetic difference between Nth Atlantic, Sth Atlantic and Sth Pacific 'populations' of Architeuthis; nor is there any apparent morphological difference that cannot be discounted as one of preservation artefact, or damage. The same conclusion has been drawn based upon comparative examination of Architeuthis beaks from all regions.

HOWEVER, I still maintain that we have spatially and temporally separate 'populations' of Architeuthis in New Zealand waters: summer East Coast South Island and winter West Coast South Island 'populations'. Whether these intermingle/cross the equator, move from NZ to South Africa, migrate North to South poles or South to North, I just don't know. So many questions that keep me awake at 10:30pm thinking .... and sometimes into the wee early am hours.

Even when we/someone gets the imagery of this animal alive there'll be so many unanswered questions - all we'll know with that elusive imagery is what the animal looks like, how it suspends itself in the water column, possibly how it feeds .... but these are all just snapshots of a beast in time and space; the bigger picture, understanding the animals life history, will take many more years and much detective work to resolve. So, if you're 12 years old and interested in Architeuthis, believe me when I say there'll be plenty of mysteries left for you to tackle, even when I'm dead and gone (which, hopefully, will not be in the immediate future).
Cheers
O

Dear steve and Phil,

With great interest I have been reading the discussion on the question whether Architeuthis represents one worldwide population or several populations.

Especially the remark, there is no genetic evidence for the existence of different species between the N-Atlantic, South Atlantic etc.

I was wondering where this information is published or when it will be published.

Were Japanese specimens included in this comparison?

Looking forward to a reply

Regards Henk-Jan

Hi Henk-Jan. I don't know how this post was overlooked - sorry for the delay.

Tiz a bad time right now for me to sit down and write about this particular aspect of research; I can say that Japenese specimens were not included in our genetic analyses (although South Pacific and both North and South Atlantic specimens were).

There's a manuscript due for submission on this ... it should have been submitted last year (long story); I'll track down the fate of it and get back to you with more info soon.
Kindest
Steve

See first post in this thread for updates.
Steve

Hi, I'm a new member here :)

I've always been fascinated by large underwater creatures, and I have alot of interest in cryptozoology and the study of 'sea monsters' in general, and therefore the giant squid became a natural topic of interest for me.

However, I always had a lot of trouble finding much information on the so called 'elusive' creature, but this site really has SO much information, its really amazing! I was recently able to borrow a copy of 'The search for the Giant Squid' by Ellis, and this renewed my interest in the Architeuthis, and google led me to this site, which was quickly added to my list of favorites.

Keep up the great work!

Well, Welcome to Tonmo!!!!
Great to have another cryptozoology buff here...Phil, Clem, myself and others are all into the weird beasts too!
greg

:welcome: to TONMO.com Pieces!!

Glad you like it here :) If you have any questions feel free to ask and we'll be glad to help.

The lure of Architeuthis! Welcome indeed.

well, let me start off by saying that i am new here. I just watched the documentary on the giant squid and it sparked my interest... i got right on the web to learn more. Im a student currently, and heading off to college in a few months. I want to do something along the lines of what you are accomplishing and i find your work facinating. My favorite course right now is ap biology, and i want to pursue some sort of marine biology in college. Zoology facinates me, and i love learning about new and exciting things in the world of biology! Keep up the good work, you are an inspiration! :D

:welcome: there Jesska. A tremendous number of people are involved in these docos; if they don't all do their job then the whole thing can come crashing down (and that doesn't look good, especially on telly). I didn't do my job - they all died after we caught them; now I have to make good, and am busting my foofoo valve to ensure that the next time we go out there are no tears - only happy squid. We're almost there!

will there be another documentary, do you think, when you do get it right? Im so engrossed in this topic now... its been on my mind all day!

also... you dont give yourself enough credit! You did what no one else has done before!!!! you were able to keep deep sea squid alive longer than anyone else, and even though you werent able to achieve the goal of keeping the giant squid larva alive, just being able to do what you have done was worth it in my mind. Biology is the constantly changing, and we are constantly learning more and more, you just helped us along a little bit... So i keep my original salute: keep up the good work! :notworth:

Thanks; I've beaten myself up for years over that last one.

Another doco? I'm not prepared to go out and do this all over again if I'm not sure that I can keep them alive. It has taken many years to build the confidence levels back up again, and now that I'm able to keep these things alive for quite a while I suppose I should embark on yet another fundraising exercise so that we can do it. Yes, Discovery Channel would like to do it again, but we've got to be able to provide something quite different - the last thing that people want to see is a repeated exercise.

If I do galavant off on something like this (and am successful in raising the NZ 1.2 million required to do it), then I'd probably go for both the adult and juvenile. I'd not use submersibles, but would use an ROV (and this requires a rather large and expensive ship).

I'm just about to embark on another substantial undertaking, but people will not see this televised for a couple of years (the production time will be that long, given a number of things we're proposing to do). It will be one of the most insanely interesting things I've ever done; it is only distantly related to squid, but will knock your socks off when it becomes public domain (and people will hear about it (and probably smell it) before it's televised for sure).

oooo... the anticipation! Sounds very interesting indeed. How long will this expedition last? Any details? sorry if im intruding... just curious i guess.

I have been a lurker on this forum for about a year now, but i've finally decided to post something.

I study archaeology at the university of Leiden and have been interested in cephs for as long as I can remember.

I have a question concerning the beaks.
As an archaeologist I appreciate the difficulty in properly identifying species/cultures from small amounts of physical evidence.
I would like to know, how beaks are characteristically different.
How, for example, you can tell if a beak belongs to a collossal or a giant squid.

Also, are drawings of beaks made and if so, where could I find them?

Lastly, a question about the giant/colossal squid fact sheet:
There, it is stated that a comparison study of the beaks would take place to determine once and for all, if the colossal squid really is larger than the giant squid.

I thank you for your time

Hi, Hans. :welcome:

Glad you're here! In answer to your beak questions... here's a page from the Tree of Life site that highlights the features used in identifying/characterizing ceph beaks: Cephalopod Beak Terminology (http://tolweb.org/accessory/Cephalopod_Beak_Terminology?acc_id=1980) . The other major reference that deals with beaks, and much more comprehensively, is what's fondly known as 'The Beak Book':

Clarke M.R. 1986. A handbook for the identification of cephalopod beaks. Clarendon Press, Oxford. : pp.273

And a couple others that might be of interest, or more readily available... Clarke did a lot of work on ceph beaks, especially from whale gut contents.

Clarke, M. 1962. The identification of cephalopod “beaks” and the relationship between beak size and total body weight. Bulletin of the British Museum (Natural History) Zoology 8(10): 422–480, pls 13–22.

Clarke M.R. 1962. Significance of cephalopod beaks. Nature. 193 (4815) : pp.560-561

Clarke, M. 1965. “Growth rings” in the beaks of the squid Moroteuthis ingens (Oegopsida: Onychoteuthidae). Malacologia 3: 287–307.

Hope they help!

Thanks for the info!

My next question concerns Mesonychoteuthis size.

Has the beak-size comparison study taken place yet?
If it has, can we now say for certain wether or not Mesonychoteuthis is larger than Architeuthis?

Hans, this is something that Kat & I (in conjunction with George Jackson) are looking at right now (mainly Kat). It shouldn't be too far off - just have to get a week-or-so out of the way first, before it's polished and ready to go.

Steve,
I am interested in the ability of squid to regrow severed arms or tentacles in regard to the giant or collosal squid sizes. Help.

Thanks,
Robert Gillum

Hi Robert. They can certainly regenerate lost 'parts' of limbs (as in parts of arms or tentacles), and can almost certainly regrow an entire limb (intuitively), but I cannot prove the latter (as in entire limb regrowth, if severed at the base). I'd have to look at a number of animals and see if there was any obvious disparity in arm or tentacle lengths (you often see regeneration of the tips).

so, what did the giants do to lose their arm tips? Lucky escapee from the jaws of a hungry sperm whale? Large sharks? Or even nipped off by small fish?

Hi Robert and Steve,

Just to add some info on regeneration. I recently came across a specimen of Octopoteuthis sicula. I was amazed that all arms except for two arms were regenerated (very small arms of 10 mm). Interestingly the distal photophores of the arms had also regenerated.

Cheers Henk-Jan

how do photphores regenerate? And how did they know where to be in the first place?


(Sorry if you've covered it before, but I must admit that I am sometimes a ignorant fool.)