This is really a continuation of the thread located here: Octopus (http://www.tonmo.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11732)

Since we already identified the Octo I thought this forum would me more appropriate for posting updated photo's and videos.

Check out Glove's camouflage here. Look like that shell?

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o210/Domboski40/DSCN1738.jpg

Here is a video of Glove eating: Eating (http://s121.photobucket.com/albums/o210/Domboski40/?action=view&current=DSCN1740.flv)

Here is a video of Glove foraging in the evening under actinics: Hunter (http://s121.photobucket.com/albums/o210/Domboski40/?action=view&current=DSCN1765.flv)

Here is a picture of the other Octo who had 3 legs and now has 3 legs and five small legs. Can you see him?

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o210/Domboski40/DSCN1749.jpg

Nice color changes on him. Do you have two octopuses in the same tank?

Nice color changes on him. Do you have two octopuses in the same tank?

So far they mostly stay away from each other. They have interacted on occasion without any problems. The one that seems most interested is the smaller one loves to touch Glove. The interest hasn't been mutual yet. I keep a close eye on them and if it seems a problem may be forming I have a 24 gallon AP ready for one of the Octos. They have been together for about a month and a half.

Are they both A. Aculeatus?

Are they both A. Aculeatus?

Yes

Some of the conversations that followed post #5 in this Journal got out of hand and resulted in my locking the thread, so we've decided to remove all posts back to post #5 and reopen this Journal. Many interesting things were said along the way, and I hope the best of them will resurface.

Nancy

I love his skunk look...

Today I witnessed the first interaction between Glove and a ribbon eel (at least my first time seeing it). Surprising considering Glove has blocked off one of the three entrances / exits I created in a PVC tunnel as his den. Glove did not want the eel attempting to go into his den so he gently pushed the eel away. I wish I had video!

Here is a video of Mr. 3 Legger. I still have to spot feed him but he has shown signs of daytime hunting. It seems as he grows his tentacles back his confidence builds. When he is 100% is probably when we will get a true gauge on the interactions of the two Octopuses. I think you can see his stub tentacles if you look closely: MR. 3 LEGGER (http://s121.photobucket.com/albums/o210/Domboski40/?action=view&current=DSCN1802.flv)

Here is a pic too:
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o210/Domboski40/DSCN1801.jpg

Here is a couple of pictures of one of Glove's neighbors:
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o210/Domboski40/DSCN1797.jpg

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o210/Domboski40/DSCN1798.jpg

Here is a picture of the crab holding pen and some fiddlers:

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o210/Domboski40/DSCN1787.jpg

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o210/Domboski40/DSCN1789.jpg

More Pics:

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o210/Domboski40/DSCN1824.jpg

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o210/Domboski40/DSCN1826.jpg

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o210/Domboski40/DSCN1832.jpg

Check out this video. I dropped a bunch of pods and live mysids in the tank for the seahorses as a treat. Check out who joined in on the feast: Hungry Octo (http://s121.photobucket.com/albums/o210/Domboski40/?action=view&current=DSCN1804.flv)

Good pics and I especially like the video!

Nancy

the "skunk stripe" look is great, is that Glove's typical look when excited about food?

I'm also frequently surprised at how many reports there are of cephs eating crustaceans much smaller than they are, everything from dwhatley's mercs eating cyclop-eze to humboldts scooping up krill with their arms. I'm not at all clear on how they get the small things to the beak, and whether they just swallow them alive or use some beak-radula action to chew them up. It seems like large suckers wouldn't be able to grab small critters, although maybe the small ones at the ends of the arms would...

Thank you.

The skunk look is something new now that he has that large snail shell near his den.

Monty,
I am still trying to figure that out. Except in the video I posted where Trapper would take the Cyclop-eeze by mouth almost directly from the pipette, I can't say that I have "seen" them eating the tiny food but I know they do. I think it "sticks" to their suckers and they must move it up to the mouth. If you remember, I posted a question back with Trapper and asked if there was any chance of directly ingesting from the suckers since there seems to be a sense of taste there. I remember you replying that there was no suggestion of this ability but watching even the tiny ones sweep the water columln for small food still makes me wonder.

Rigby has "attacked" pods before but he lets them go... I don't know if he just doesn't know what to do with them or if he just thinks it is fun to catch them and let them go... kinda like fishing... but i see him let them go..

SandV,
This is definitely consumption. Trapper lived over 12 weeks on nothing but Cyclop-eeze (while and after brooding young). After she quit eating crab and shrimp, I noticed her "sweeping" the water whenever I would feed the babies so I started including her in the pipette feeding. Now I include Cyclop-eeze daily in the diet of the adults as well as the new babies (note I said include as I also feed crab and shrimp). The adults will sometimes decline shrimp but never decline the Cyclop-eeze and are still doing well after nine + months.

Gloves Suckers on the Glass:

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o210/Domboski40/DSCN1855.jpg

Mr. 3 Legger's Suckers on the Glass (as you can see, Mr. 3L is out much more when the halides are on now that he has grown a bit):

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o210/Domboski40/DSCN1856.jpg

I love that gorgonian in the second pic

So far, no sign of enlarged suckers that I can detect (3L may not count in the observation) but I am not sure all species have this male/female distinction and Medusa did not show his until several months after they were very clear on Sisturus (both Mercatoris). So far, observing my 2 males in a small tank and two males and 1 female in a larger tank, I am beginning to think that males are more social than females (observations limited to this one brood) and that keeping two males together may produce better pets, just no young.

I witnessed another interaction between Glove and my Blue Ribbon Eel. This time I was nervous (probably because I was walking out the door on my way to work ughh). It looked like Glove took a very aggressive pose and almost seemed to be grabbing the eel to bite. I was surprised that the eel wasn't squirming or trying to get away. I took a closer inspection and it just seemed like Glove was inspecting or just liked the way the eel felt. Weird. Anyone have an idea of what this behavior is? I've always kept my Octos in species specific tanks before these two so I am not sure what Glove was doing. Glove was light brown in color, no patterns, and seemed almost to be stroking the Eel. As the Eel was swiiming around, Glove would pull in part of the eels body towards him (thats what made me think he was going to bite) but then would let the eel swim away gently as if he liked the way the Eels body rubbed up against his suckers and tentacles. The Eel showed zero sign of alarm or that he felt like he was being restricted.

I'm just hoping it wasn't Glove sizing the eel up as a potential meal (the Blue Ribbon Eel is full grown). Any thoughts?

I can't remember anyone putting a ribbon eel in with an octopus before. It is very possible that he wants to eat the eel. It is also quite possible that he was just examining it. If you continue to worry about their interaction move one of them unless you want to see how it plays out.

d- I think a more accurate way to differentiate between male and female is the 3rd left arm curling. Have you noticed this on your mercs? My O. Hummelinki did not have enlarged suckers on his hectocotylus but ALWAYS kept it curled. There were no suckers on the last couple centimeters of his hectocotylus.

Eels and octopuses are natural enemies. Watch Octopus Volcano (Animal Planet) to see a large eel trying to attack an O. vulgaris (it doesn't succeed because the octopus is able to retreat further into its den).

I don't know what this means, but anything goes in a mixed tank. Your tank inhabitants may live together in peace for some time, and they you'll find that one has eaten another (or, maybe not).

Nancy

im new to octos,but i do have experience with reptile's.I have a friend that kept a mixed monitor tank with little problem for aprox 6 months(not a good idea).he went to feed them one morning and thier was only 1 fat monitor,and unfortunatly the eater died also do to a blockage.not that this will happen, you would know better than i would but it can.

There is risk for sure. The ribbon eels are much more peaceful than most marine eels. I know that sounds silly but its because they have no choice. I've never seen eels with such poor eyesight and the inability to catch anything other than super slow dying minnows. I feed mine frozen fish on the end of a stick and it takes major patience. They are easily confused and only eat small fish that fit easily in their mouth and can be swallowed whole. Any sudden movement by me and they jet back into their den.
That is why I was suprised the Octos curiosity (or what ever it was) didn't startle the eel. It makes me think there has been a lot of interaction between them over the last 2 months plus that I have not witnessed personally. Hopefully the eel keeps his guard up if and when he needs to. I'm not worried about the eels eating the Octo as I am of the opposite. I'm going to hang tight and see what happens in the next week or so. It could possibly be time to move the Ribbon eel into another tank as it is not the best sign that he is free swimming so much (now you all know why I have so many tanks). He may no longer be happy with the current set up. The other ribbon eel I have, almost never comes completely out of his den and I have had that one much longer (about a year or so).

Here is a picture of Mr. 3 Legger getting a rare and somewhat expensive ($10) treat (I don't mind the money as long as he enjoys and it brings variety to his diet):

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o210/Domboski40/DSCN1885.jpg

Ouch! Is that a little lobster or a shrimp (it seems like I remember an old, old video that showed a Vulgaris getting a lobster out of a jar, maybe a Cousteau film? ) Please, please continue to let us know what they ignore and what they attrack and what you move! I keep watching my Mercs for signs of changing relationships too. At this point, I have decided not to move anyone and just observe (they are almost 10 months old now). So far so good. Ribbon eels are my favorite but I have never kept one (for some reason Neal won't agree to one and he likes eels).

Shipposhack, yes, the Mercs curl up their hectocotylusized arm but they curl all their arms (even as juveniles) and the tip is very, very hard to observe (even when they are poking it about - I think I need a blow up female octopus doll for Sisty and 'Dusa). The suckers, on the other hand, turned out to be a definite sign of sexual maturity in the Mercs (and not just on the third arm), and easy to spot, especially when plastered on the tank wall :grin:. As you mentioned, not all species show this distinction but it is an additional confirmation for those that do.

[QUOTE=dwhatley;107334]Ouch! Is that a little lobster or a shrimpQUOTE]

It is one of those purple reef lobsters (about 2" maybe less). I got them just to see if they would eat them and sure enough Mr. 3 Legger devoured both.

I witnessed another interaction between the Ribbon Eel (same one) and Glove this morning. This time it was more clear what is going on. The Ribbon Eel is trying to get into Gloves Den and Glove is boxing him out. It was funny to watch today because what Glove decided to do was use his body to fill the entire PVC entrance so there was no way the Eel could fit. He stayed in that position until the Eel gave up.

I feel bad for the Eel because he must remember the entrance and wants to use it. This is definitely a sign he wants more space so I may move him this weekend :goodbye: Although I like having the two Ribbon Eels together as I feel it triggers the feeding response better.

Dom,
I have seen a similar action from my pygmies between my brooding female and a serpent star. The female very gently removes the arms of the exploring serpent. The gentleness of the interaction was what I found so interesting and that you have seen a similar effect with a different animal and octo species. I wonder if the gentleness has to do with self protection in that they do not want to upset the other creature and risk loosing an arm. When the shore shrimp have gotten in the way, the technique is very different and the pygmies swat at them like a fly but don't go after them like dinner, a passing crab, however, usually becomes dinner.

Rigby would swat at the damsel when it would come near his food and swats at the bristle worms when they come out to eat his food...

I have been quiet due to a computer issue and thought I had new updated pics but only a new video. I am sorry to say but Mr. 3 Legger is no longer with us. I found him half eaten about two weeks ago. He was about a 1/3 of the size of Glove. He just didn't seem to grow at the pace Glove did. I guess Glove killed him although I never witnessed any altercations. Very sad :(

That was a few weeks ago. Glove now has some new friends. I've added two Alligator Pipefish and Two more SHs. Glove's eating habits seemed to have changed. Glove wants shrimp and a lot of it. She decided to eat all of my shrimp including my Cleaners I've had for a while. The only survivor is a monstrous coral shrimp. Other than the shrimp, everything else is fine.

Here is a video of Glove disposing of the Exo skeleton of a shrimp. If you watch closely, you'll catch an alligator pipefish eating mysis shrimp: http://s121.photobucket.com/albums/o210/Domboski40/?action=view&current=DSCN1969.flv

Here is a pic of one of the new additions: http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o210/Domboski40/DSCN1957.jpg

Here is a full tank shot: http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o210/Domboski40/Picture115.jpg

Old and new friends: http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o210/Domboski40/Picture112.jpg

Sorry to hear it,but its good to have you back.Are those blue led lights?I just but mine back on my tank tonight.Now that Olorin is settled in I thought it might be ok.

Dom,
I have been wondering how your mixed tank was doing and am glad you are back on-line. So far I don't think anyone has had success with multiple octos in an aquarium unless they were sibblings raised together (my Mercs and Zyan's bimacs are the only ones I am aware of in our journals) and my offspring from the Merc sibbling pairing have not done well at all but I don't know if it is juvenile predation (I had none with the first group) or male adult praying on the young. It seems consumption must be involved as there are no bodies but I don't know if they are eaten after a kill or after a natural death or who eats them.

I noticed that you have erectus and some other type of seahorse in the tank. I am about to start a seahorse tank (again) and would like to know what species the other horse is and how long they have been together (I have had problems when mixing and would like to find another Caribbean species that might survive with the erectus).

Sorry to hear it,but its good to have you back.Are those blue led lights?I just but mine back on my tank tonight.Now that Olorin is settled in I thought it might be ok.

Thanks. No they are metal halides.

Dom,
I have been wondering how your mixed tank was doing and am glad you are back on-line. So far I don't think anyone has had success with multiple octos in an aquarium unless they were sibblings raised together (my Mercs and Zyan's bimacs are the only ones I am aware of in our journals) and my offspring from the Merc sibbling pairing have not done well at all but I don't know if it is juvenile predation (I had none with the first group) or male adult praying on the young. It seems consumption must be involved as there are no bodies but I don't know if they are eaten after a kill or after a natural death or who eats them.

I noticed that you have erectus and some other type of seahorse in the tank. I am about to start a seahorse tank (again) and would like to know what species the other horse is and how long they have been together (I have had problems when mixing and would like to find another Caribbean species that might survive with the erectus).

Thanks D. It is sad Mr. 3 Legger was killed or died. His growth pace wasn't what it should be and I often wondered if it was a result of stress because at one point he only had three legs or some sort of Koi type growth block. That may be a little crazy but he ate so much. I feel terrible about the whole thing.

The other seahorses in the tank are reidi. Everyone in the tank is doing great. Someone was giving away seahorses so I took them so now I have 8.

Back a few posts we talked about the eel interaction with the Octo. They have become so comfortable with eachother that the octo actually lets my younger eel into his den. I couldn't believe my eyes! :shock: I have only witnessed this on 3-4 occasions.

BTW, I will not try and keep two Octos in the same tank again. There is no real benefit that I see or experienced. They never really interact with each other. Maybe down the road I'll try breeding them but even then I won't keep them together all of the time.

Dom,
I will differ slightly with you on the two octos in a tank. In addition to myself, I know of two other successes. All three successes, however (Mine - Mercs, Zyan Silver - Bimac, Mote Marine - Vulgaris), were same species animals raised together from hatchlings (the Mote Vulgaris were found together in the wild). I do not know of a failure with this formula but I don't know of a success trying to place two adults and/or different species in a tank.

Very interesting with the ribbons! I thought you were going to move one of them but I assume you decided to hold off on the move and the current relationship developed. Please keep a posting on their continuing relationship as it is something I might also consider down the road.

Dom,
I will differ slightly with you on the two octos in a tank. In addition to myself, I know of two other successes. All three successes, however (Mine - Mercs, Zyan Silver - Bimac, Mote Marine - Vulgaris), were same species animals raised together from hatchlings (the Mote Vulgaris were found together in the wild). I do not know of a failure with this formula but I don't know of a success trying to place two adults and/or different species in a tank.

Very interesting with the ribbons! I thought you were going to move one of them but I assume you decided to hold off on the move and the current relationship developed. Please keep a posting on their continuing relationship as it is something I might also consider down the road.

Sorry D, I didn't mean to make it sound like I was making a recommendation to other people but rather for me personally I will not keep two Octos in the same system anymore.

I ended up not moving the ribbon mainly because I was so busy at work I forgot about my plans. :lol:

Updated Pics. Glove's appetite has slowed down :). Its been over six months since I got him. Glove will only eat shrimp now. I know it appears Glove is eating a silverside but he actually he turned it away.

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o210/Domboski40/2331713337_82bd76849a_o.jpg

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o210/Domboski40/2331712621_773cbf0023_o.jpg

gorgeous gorgeous pics.

Nice pics.Always good to hear your updates.

Dom,
Does he still get along well with the ribbon eel?

those are beautiful suckers....

Dom,
Does he still get along well with the ribbon eel?

Yes D. As you know I have two Ribbon Eels in the tank and I haven't had a problem. In fact, Glove has been more mobile with the dens which has led to much more interaction. I have one long PVC that is buried in the sand that runs from the back left corner to the front right corner. There is an entrance at each end and in the middle. Glove used to choose one of the three entrances and block off the PVC so the Eels could not get to where Glove was hiding. Now, Glove has given back some of my corals (THIEF!) that was used to block off the PVC and removed all of the sand from inside the PVC and actually uses the entire PVC as a den. Of course Glove has to share it with the ribbon eels. It is kind of funny seeing them together. I will try and take a picture for you.

With all of the inhabitants in the tank with Glove, the only casulties were cleaner and fire shrimp, Two pajama cardinals and one small convict tang. Everything else has been left alone.

Here are some pics of one of my eels eating:

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o210/Domboski40/JHL_5150.jpg

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o210/Domboski40/JHL_5144.jpg

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o210/Domboski40/JHL_5147.jpg

If eel's and octo's can get along in a small tank,Why can't we get along in this great big world of ours:cry:

I really like eels and have had several fresh water varieties over the years and my son has kept snowflakes and a wolf eel (not actually an eel if I recall) but my very favorite is the ribbon. I keep wondering if one would survive with an octo when we convert our largest tank but I would be devistated if it did not work out and would not have an alternate environment if I had to separate them. Do they approach visitors other than at feeding time?

Not really. They always have there heads out almost like a garden eel in the sand. They have learned that when the stick is in the water it means food so that is the only other time besides feeding time they come far out. I watched my black ribbon eel grab my only banggai cardinal and eat it on friday. I couldn't believe it fit in its stomache. My eels eat shrimp, squid and silversides. I haven't gotten them eating anything else yet.

Here are some pics from a week ago. Check out the coloration in some.

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o210/Domboski40/DSCN1998.jpg

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o210/Domboski40/DSCN1999.jpg

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o210/Domboski40/DSCN2004.jpg

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o210/Domboski40/DSCN2005.jpg

We are sure Glove is Aculatus right? So many of the pictures remind me of Octane (Hummelincki) and I was very carefully observing the mantle patterning tonight and Glove's markings look the same.

I wonder if that blue/green is created by the halides? I have a very dull starfish that looks deep blue under actinics and if you ever see a mandarin with the lights off, they are really sort of brown so I am thinking that some shades of brown reflect a blue color under certain wavelength.

I wanted to post a recent full tank shot that someone took for me as I received a few emails asking me what corals I have in the tank. I think there is a perception that I have a typical reef tank when in fact I do not. The only corals I have in the tank are a fluorescent green candycane (@ 10 heads), maroon mushrooms (5-6 polyps), assorted ricordia mushrooms (@ 5 polyps), pumping xenia (3 stalks), a few small frags of montipora (4 frags), one encrusting gonipora rock, small pulsing sinularia, blue zoos (3 heads), and a large toadstool leather. I think it appears that there is much more in my tank mainly because of the Gorgonians of which I have over 15 species in the tank and maybe because I have metal halide lights. The lights are for the plates.

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o210/Domboski40/JHL_5085.jpg

We are sure Glove is Aculatus right? So many of the pictures remind me of Octane (Hummelincki) and I was very carefully observing the mantle patterning tonight and Glove's markings look the same.

I wonder if that blue/green is created by the halides? I have a very dull starfish that looks deep blue under actinics and if you ever see a mandarin with the lights off, they are really sort of brown so I am thinking that some shades of brown reflect a blue color under certain wavelength.

I don't know D. Gloves tentacles seem much longer than Octanes. In the picture above, Glove is actually pulling an Asian shore Crab from the cave next to his den.

You could be right about the halides. I just changed the bulbs from Hamilton 14Ks which are a bit blue to Ushio 14ks which are more white. I liked the coloration of the Hamiltons much better but the Ushio gives off much more light.

Here you go D. Pictures of one of the ribbon eels and the Octo in the same den as promised a while back. I know they are not the best pictures but this is the best I have been able to do. It is rare for the Octo to be out in the middle of the day. You can see the Octo peeking out at the base of the eel.

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o210/Domboski40/DSCN2072.jpg

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o210/Domboski40/DSCN2071.jpg

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o210/Domboski40/DSCN2056.jpg

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o210/Domboski40/DSCN2055.jpg

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o210/Domboski40/DSCN2050.jpg

Finally some better pics:

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o210/Domboski40/2397925148_1da95a3e17_o.jpg

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o210/Domboski40/2397093319_9d92924976_o.jpg

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o210/Domboski40/2397925266_cf9be215dd_o.jpg

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o210/Domboski40/2397924412_c28fce64b1_o.jpg

On your first set of pics, with a blue ribbon eel, on the third one down, I see the tail of a mandarin dragonet, is this correct? If so, how big of a tank do you have, how long have you had it, what does it eat, is it hard to defeat, and do you think I could keep one in a 12 gallon tank? I know this is off topic, and a lot of questions, but Im really interested in keeping one and cant find a straight answer online.

I really like your octo pictures as well, Im jealous of all you guys that can take such good pics, I can never take such good pics. :rolleyes:

On your first set of pics, with a blue ribbon eel, on the third one down, I see the tail of a mandarin dragonet, is this correct? If so, how big of a tank do you have, how long have you had it, what does it eat, is it hard to defeat, and do you think I could keep one in a 12 gallon tank? I know this is off topic, and a lot of questions, but Im really interested in keeping one and cant find a straight answer online.

I really like your octo pictures as well, Im jealous of all you guys that can take such good pics, I can never take such good pics. :rolleyes:

I do have a Mandarin in a 72 gallon bow front. This particular Mandarin was bought with special consideration. It eats mysis shrimp. It is nearly impossible to find them eating frozen foods. If you had them eating frozen foods I don't see any reason why you wouldn't be able to keep one in a 12 gallon. I've seen people mating them in 10 gallons. The key is buying them when they are eating frozen foods otherwise they are doomed in smaller tanks. I'd keep an eye out for someone selling one they have had for a while otherwise you may be wasting your money trying to get one to eat. This is definitely one fish that it pays to wait for the right one versus buying anyone you see in the pet store.

There is techniques I've read about online for training them to eat frozen foods but you'll need to supplement their diet with live foods until you get them eating frozen. In a 12 gallon, you won't be able to sustain the amount of pods they'll need to survive so you'll have to buy live foods. A good place to get live foods is Sachs Aquaculture (www.aquaculturestore.com). You'd have to order from them weekly to keep up on the diet for a Mandarin.

Wow! Fantastic pictures.

Wow! Fantastic pictures.

Thanks. Here is one more:

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o210/Domboski40/IMGP0854.jpg

Now, THOSE are PICTURES! New camera or just a cooperating Glove? The color on the sucker rings and the brown that almost looks blue in some light is very much like one of Octane's coloration (Hummelincki) but the Glove's leggy look distinguished the two.

Now, THOSE are PICTURES! New camera or just a cooperating Glove? The color on the sucker rings and the brown that almost looks blue in some light is very much like one of Octane's coloration (Hummelincki) but the Glove's leggy look distinguished the two.

Thanks D. I borrowed a friends camera. What a difference. LOL

Unfortunately a good camera does make a difference, more than you'd think.

Nancy

Hi:

I am just amazed that everything in your tank is alive, its unreal to me that you have an octo, seahorses, pipefish and other fish living together.

BRAVO! I am very impressed, the minute I saw the pic of your full tank I thought everything would be dead within a few days; I applaud you for your continued sucess.

Regards,

Estefano

Hi:

I am just amazed that everything in your tank is alive, its unreal to me that you have an octo, seahorses, pipefish and other fish living together.

BRAVO! I am very impressed, the minute I saw the pic of your full tank I thought everything would be dead within a few days; I applaud you for your continued sucess.

Regards,

Estefano

Thanks. I'm not sure why you would think everything in the tank would die in a few days when the tank has been up running with almost all of the livestock for over a year before this thread was even started.
:confused:

Does Glove ever turn jet black with white circle dots across the body? Just trying to compare with mine :)

Hi Colin,

Glove on occasion will change his skin texture to look almost like a sargassum fish's appearance and will be mostly white with some black. I haven't noticed Glove turning black with white dots though. The closest to that description is the "skunk" look some of the earlier pictures in this thread show.

I've started my local collection this past weekend so Glove enjoyed a nice snack of Grass shrimp (Palaemonetes pugio) and my seahorses enjoyed some Mysis shrimp (Neomysis americana).

so do you think i could put an octo in my 265g reef tank? i think it would be the coolest thing ever! i may try either a briareus or an A. aculeatus. thanks for any info! i keep seeing more and more people keeping octos in reef tanks! i'm starting to think there reef safe! except for inverts.

thats interesting, I'm thinking that mine are not aculeatus, perhaps abaculus?

always good to catch your own livefood isnt it?

thats interesting, I'm thinking that mine are not aculeatus, perhaps abaculus?

always good to catch your own livefood isnt it?

Oh yeah. It's easy on the pockets LOL

so do you think i could put an octo in my 265g reef tank? i think it would be the coolest thing ever! i may try either a briareus or an A. aculeatus. thanks for any info! i keep seeing more and more people keeping octos in reef tanks! i'm starting to think there reef safe! except for inverts.

Assuming you have done your homework on what corals are safe for Octos, the main concern you may want to think about is your coral-scaping. An Octo can and will dislodge and move all the corals it can to make a nice den. I'm not so much concerned about my corals and I still found it annoying. Glove even removed some Gorgs that were glued to rocks. Besides Inverts, your fish can be targets too.

i was thinking about trying a small octo also. maybe a merc? or a hummelincki? there small and i don't think a merc would go after a 7 inch tang. i think that might be my best bet. anyone else have some opinions on this? i would like to hear what evryone thinks about this. btw i have kept a few octos before so i know how to take care of them.

Does Glove ever turn jet black with white circle dots across the body? Just trying to compare with mine :)

The one I kept at work did that.

i was thinking about trying a small octo also. maybe a merc? or a hummelincki? there small and i don't think a merc would go after a 7 inch tang. i think that might be my best bet. anyone else have some opinions on this? i would like to hear what evryone thinks about this. btw i have kept a few octos before so i know how to take care of them.

No, a mercatoris probably wouldn't go after a 7" tang. But as to whether or not the tang will find it and take a bite is a different story. On the other hand, my mercatoris Einy would cling to the side of his container seemingly trying to jump onto my dwarf fuzzy lionfish which was about 4" at the time.
A hummelincki is probably going to take most any fish out. They're pretty bold.

Quick Update:

I have not seen Glove for the past three days. Glove's den is completely covered with shells and rubble. Not sure what to make of it but I'm a little concerned. I've had Glove now for 7 months....

Could be glovette???

holed herself up for laying eggs?

That would be cool although I would rather Glove (ette) live a lot longer.

Well, it would certainly be a challenge :)

Unfortunately, it is unlikely that if Glovette it is there would be any viable eggs UNLESS your three armed guy was male and he mated successfully. I seem to remember you hoping there would be a mating but I don't recall you identifying the sex of either of the octos.

Yeah that's why I thought it could be a successful mating... time will tell.

I did not see Glove but I moved a lot of rubble away from the den in the afternoon yesterday and it is all back covering the den this morning. I would guess the eggs are not viable (if that is in fact what is going on) and dwhatley is right, I never did sex them. Mr. Three Legger grew all of his legs back but was found dead after I had him for three months or so. I did witness some interaction between the two. Mr. Three Legger was much smaller than Glove and I assumed he never reached full size but who knows.

Question: If by a stroke of luck there is eggs and they are viable, will Glove open the den to release them into the water column? I assume Glove would but thought I'd ask just in case.

Dom,
My mercs "threw" their young out of the nest after hatching by jettisoning them with their siphons so one would assume something similar with the small egged species.

There is another member currently with aculeatus eggs that might be helpful. Redoc is the keeper and these are the two primary reports, questions and answers about small egg young and aculeatus in partacular:

http://www.tonmo.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13256

http://www.tonmo.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13200

The aculeatus I kept built a den the day after I received it and would occasionally accept food, but never left the den except when no one was around. It started refusing food about 2 weeks later. It died about a month after that. :(

Thanks for the links D. I'll read through them later. That is sad to hear Animal Mother.

Still no sign of Glove other than the rubble be added to or changed. If Glove (ette) laid eggs, how long till they hatch (if viable) and how long till Glove (ette) perishes? I'm worried that I can not see into the PVC and if Glove (ette) dies I'd like to remove the Octo quickly but not prematurely. If it is in the links provided by D please ignore me.

If Glovette laid eggs, it would be about a month to six weeks before they hatch. If you have some way to offering food on a feeding stick, continue to feed her.

When an octopus dies, it almost always comes out in the open.

It's also possible, even if she lays eggs and they hatch, that she might live a few weeks after that time.

I know this is a difficult period, we become very attached to them and they never live long enough.

Nancy

Dom,
You might PM redoc since you may (and it sure sounds like it - fertile or not) be right behind him in timing and ask the he keep you up dated on any obvious observations and timings. I know it was extremely helpful to me to be just behind LEV with the Mercs since the experience was very fresh and it gave me vicarious observations just before they were about to happen.

Redoc has put out a call for experiences on aculeatus egg hatchings but has had not takers so it would be very future helpful if both of you would keep at least a weekly log. Keeping her eating is going to be primary in length of survival. The Mercs seem to typically last up to 5 weeks after hatching IF they eat (LEV, gholland and twice for me) but Jean reports that one of their (New Zeland) species dies before the hatching (don't worry, they can get out of the den they are SMALL, the large egged Merc are tick sized and can still get anywhere they want).

I will also make a small exception to Nancy's comment about them coming out of their dens to die. This was true of my wild caught Merc mother, Trapper, and many have reported aimless wanderings and day time sitings of night octos just before death but two of my tank reared did not and I never found the carcasses in a heavily rocked 45 gallon aquarium. Fortunately, the bio-load seems to be very small as there was never a spike or tank suggestion of the demises, they just "disappeared". I find this a bit odd since I have kept dead hatchlings of two species in saltwater just to see how long it takes them to "dissolve" (ie no clean-up crew) and even after two weeks, the corpses were easily recognizable, just dehydrated. This makes me suspect they are easily eaten after death and that the tank effect is very small. I know you have other critters to worry about but you did mention that Mr. 3 legs was already being consumed when you found him.

If you can't get Glove to come to the door for food, you might try sticking food on a stick through the door rubble with a small amount showing outside and see if she goes for it. Otherwise, try squirting some Cyclop-eeze into the den with a pipette. She will likely blow it back out (and may or may not eat some) but she will protect her eggs from the invasion and you will know she is alive.

Well its been a some time but heres the update. There was no way I could get food for Glovette (yes confirmed) so I put about 50 amphipods and 50 small shore crabs about a week ago hoping they would make their way to glove in her den. Well two days ago my skimmer went crazy and there was no obvious reason so I figured Glovette passed on. I've been waiting to engage in a tank overhaul so I decided it was time to do it today. I took out Glovette's PVC and as I was pulling them apart one at a time slowly as I was unsure where Glovette was when I found found her. She is still alive and quite strong. She was holding the PVC pipe together trying to stop me from pulling them apart. There was a boat load of eggs too. I removed the section of PVC where Glovette and her eggs were and put it in my refugium. I took some stray eggs strands and put them in my main tank where they were eaten quickly. The eggs are completely clear. I'm assuming that means they are non-fertile. Glovette looks pretty healthy and actually was trying to catch a grass shrimp and crab I put in the fuge with her.

I'm dreading Glovette's final stage of life. Does anyone on the board euthanize their Octos when they start withering away while still alive? If so, What is the preferred method? Of course I'll search the board as well.

Thanks,

Dom

Dom,
I think you are right about the eggs not being fertile since all other pictures show black eyes this long after the octopus went into brooding.

I have lost a couple of octos now but all have been Mercs so my experience and opinions might change. I have let all die naturally and only with Sisturus would I have considered euthanasia. The others did not seem uncomfortable or in pain and seemed to just go to sleep. Sisty was more heart breaking as he appeared to have a "stroke" (or something equivalent) and loss the use of two arms followed by the inability to stay up right. I still let him die on his own but was internally debating the issue after a full day of this condition. Here is a link to discussion on the topic within TONMO

http://www.tonmo.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11492

Thanks D for the thread. I hope I don't have to euthanize Glovette but since she has a strong urge to keep eating I'm afraid she will extend her life to that point. I always thought freezing was humane as I was under the impression that as the temperature dropped the body functions slowed and the fish would become "drunk" until it finally passed on. It's terrible that a super smart animal has so short of a lifespan and passes in such a manner.

I think I contributed this to the link I sent but I'll repeat what I tried here with Trapper. I did not do this with Sisty and don't believe it would have helped but if infection and skin lession are what you most fear, it might. I injected trapper's shrimp with a small amount of Tetracycline for 10 days after the babies hatched. She lived almost 12 weeks (excessive) from the appearance of the first hatchling and did not show any signs of skin deterioration. She ate up until her last hours and I did not detect undue stress or discomfort other than she preferred softer things to climb on and would sit in my hand or on the pump rather than climbing around in the LR. She was only eating Cyclop-eeze in the end but would take it directly from a pipette and could climb the tank wall to come and eat (there is a video in her thread if you are interested in reading more). I don't think Sisty's affliction was bacterial though but I wish I had tried the one-time shot of antibiotics just to know I did all I know to do. Sisty was 13 months old so it is unlikely anything would have stopped time and I don't kick myself much about it.


As you may have noted in the thread, Gjbarord feels that trying to prolong an animal's end of life is not best for the animal and makes some good points but I still argue that if the life can be extended without pain then it is worth trying. How to make the call is difficult.

I did read that and it is quite interesting. It is so hard to make a decision. I'm a believer that relating our own experience and feelings to understand what another animal is going through is somewhat irrational especially with an animal like a ceph. They are so complex and different than we are. That type of philosophy really leaves a big black hole in what is best to do though in this situation. Right now I'm like 80% leave Glovette to a natural passing and 20% euthanization.

Not all octopuses experience the end of life in the same way. Some have what appears to be a "heart attack" (?organ failure) and die quickly. Others don't seem to visibly deteriorate but are far less active and then pass away. The ones that concern us are the ones with lesions and quite visible deterioration.

Octopuses can live some time after egg laying and even appear to be in faily good shape - just depends.

Nancy

So far Glovette is pretty active and eating grass shrimp. She doesn't leave the eggs as expected.

Well Glovette is still alive but doesn't seem to be eating any longer. She is actually acting weird. Rather than hide in a den, she chooses to cover her head with her tentacle web. Very strange. I feel bad for her. The eggs are all gone. She looks to be in good shape and I'm not 100% sure she isn't eating because I put about 30 grass shrimp in the tank with her. Has anyone witnessed this behavior and could let me know what this means?

No suggestions or answers but a few questions. When you said the eggs are "gone" do you mean they totally vanished or just became empty sacks? Could she have eaten them? There is some conjecture that females may eat unfertile eggs but I have only seen maybe kinds of references. Does she stay in the open curled up all the time or just during night/day? With my 5 mercs, only HideNSeek (male) did something similar during his last week. If I disturbed him, he could swim but would return to that position after "escaping" my intrusion.

No suggestions or answers but a few questions. When you said the eggs are "gone" do you mean they totally vanished or just became empty sacks? Could she have eaten them?

I took most out and the rest are completely gone. She may have eaten them or the grass shrimp picked at them.

Does she stay in the open curled up all the time or just during night/day?

All of the time. Actually today she is looking terrible. She is no longer curled up and is very white. She is also breathing heavily. I'm assuming it is only a matter of days.

Very sad :cry:. I wish I could do something to ease her pain. Do you think I should use benzaclin and put her out of her misery?

:( Tough call.

Sorry dude. Can't answer that one.:(

I've had to make that choice several times so far this year for my pets. We put our 11 year old Dane to sleep when I felt her hips grinding the day she could not get up. Later that night she managed to get up and do steps but we decided to call in the vet. I told her I would try meds if it would keep her comfortable and let her expire naturally but she felt the decision was over due.

I put Sisturus in a separate container when it was obvious he had only hours. When I could not see breathing I waited another hour and then put him in formalin. That triggered an arm reaction. I am sure he was already dead but I hurts me to think he might have had a little life left and that the formalin caused pain.

HideNSeek may have been the worst because I think I extended his life (unintentionally) by putting in an air line.

My main problem is trying to separate my pain from the animals. It is so miserable to watch them die but I feel they have the right to die naturally. I hope I go in my sleep and no one has to make the choice. It does not matter to me but the suffering of the living, whichever choice is made, is the worst part.

Glovette passed away yesterday :cry: She was found when I got home from work. Almost 9 months to the day. She was my favorite Octo by far and will be missed. I hope she lived a happy life. As you all know I never had a cover on my tank (not recommended), housed her with many different species (also not recommended) and even kept her with another Octo (that was brief). I believe she was happy and constantly stimulated. The only basis I have for this is that she never tried to get out. Hopefully I did the right thing.

I appreciate everyone's input and advice. As I always do, I'm going to take some time off before I get another Octo.

I've had to make that choice several times so far this year for my pets. We put our 11 year old Dane to sleep when I felt her hips grinding the day she could not get up. Later that night she managed to get up and do steps but we decided to call in the vet. I told her I would try meds if it would keep her comfortable and let her expire naturally but she felt the decision was over due.

I put Sisturus in a separate container when it was obvious he had only hours. When I could not see breathing I waited another hour and then put him in formalin. That triggered an arm reaction. I am sure he was already dead but I hurts me to think he might have had a little life left and that the formalin caused pain.

HideNSeek may have been the worst because I think I extended his life (unintentionally) by putting in an air line.

My main problem is trying to separate my pain from the animals. It is so miserable to watch them die but I feel they have the right to die naturally. I hope I go in my sleep and no one has to make the choice. It does not matter to me but the suffering of the living, whichever choice is made, is the worst part.


Very tough D. Sorry to hear about your dog. I agree with you 100% about the way to go.

RIP Glovette :angelpus:

We will miss her.

Nancy

RIP Glovette. :angelpus:

Sorry Domboski.

:sad: RIP Glovette

:cry: RIP Glovette.