Yesterday I bought a 65 gallon tank setup.

And my first Octo!

I setup the tank and got him situated.

I used BIO-Spira enough to treat 95 gallons(Over kill for the 65 gallon tank), Live Rock, Live aragonite sand.

The Nitrate and Nitrate are both zero.

PH is perfect.

but alkalinity is high. about 300. But the pet store i recieved him from was about 280.

I am going to be monitoring the tank 4 times daily for any spike so i can change the water but i dont think It will spike. Im pretty sure the tank is cycled.

My question is.

I put an, in-tank heater in. It occured to me today that maybe he could cook himself if he sat on it....is that possible?! has anyone else had that problem?

second i was wondering how do I feed him?

Thanks for any help. I might have more questions to come too.

I am also new here but there are a few things that I have learrned: First, Octos like the cold so a heater would not be a good idea--they like it room temp or less. Second, it takes about 3 months to cycle a tank before you can introduce the octo- the tank will cycle for that long. I am sure others on here will give you alot more info on all your questions. It is just a shame if the LFS would sell the octo knowing the tank has just been set up so I hope your lil guy is strong and very lucky.

well i turned the heater down to 75

I did some more research I believe hes a vulgaris Octopus.
So hes tropical. Bimacs like it cold not Vulgaris.

Do you have a picture of him? We can help you ID him if you do. Proper identification can be difficult. Even tropical species can tolerate cooler water and it will make them live longer. I believe O. Vulgaris are sometimes found in colder waters, but I'm not sure. Seventy-five is fine to keep your tank at, that's what I keep mine at, mostly because I don't feel like turning the heater down another 3 degrees. It almost never comes on anyway. Maybe in the winter I will lower it.

There's a lot of red flags for you right now. First, your tank is a new setup. Ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate don't go up automatically right when you set the tank up. It will usually take about a week for the first nitrogen cycle to start up. The ONLY way to shorten this cycle by a lot is by getting cycled everything; that means rock, water, and sand. Otherwise it will take about 3 months for your tank to fully stabilize. The first month will be especially hard for anything in the tank because of the ammonia, then nitrite spike, and the nitrate spike later. Another thing you have to worry about is if your live rock is cured or not. Usually it will be semi-cured, but not fully, in which case the rock needs to finish dieing off, and increases the ammonia. This is good long-term because it gives the initial nitrogen cycle a jump start. When there is something in the tank while this is going on it is not a good thing. The biggest problem with putting an octopus into a brand new setup is that the tank will not be able to handle the bioload. Octopuses carry a huge bioload with them, after 3 months of cycling the tank is ready to handle it, but definitely not at first.

The heater will not harm the octopus. They are smart creatures and will not allow themselves to melt away if they can get away from it.

Feeding can be live food, or you can try frozen shrimp from the store (uncooked--grey). I would start by having snails and hermit crabs for him to attack. Another good thing is fiddler crabs if you have access to them, or you can buy them online. Once he gets used to the tank you might be able to feed him frozen shrimp.

I don't know of a scale to measure alkalinity that goes up to 300. The most common measurements are in dKH (should be between 9 and 12 in a reef tank) and mel/q (or something like that >.<, which I think is supposed to be in the 3-3.5 range). I don't believe octopuses care what the alkalinity is though.

The last thing for now is that a 95 gallon tank would be more suitable if you really do have O. Vulgaris. They get BIG and need a large tank.

Hope I helped. Good luck.

Dude, I know you want to keep him, but you should PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE consider returning him to the LFS if you want what's best for him... perhaps a better LFS considering they sent you home with a new setup and an octopus the same day.... oh that makes me furious. Flaming furious.

Seriously, this is likely to be a huge disappointment to you very soon. You can read Crocgurl's thread on "What's wrong with my octo?"

:!::alarm:Yikes, Animal Mother prompted me to go read more closely.

I had mis-read your post, and thought that you somehow transported a cycled tank full of water to your house. If you've just put the rock, filter media, sand and water together for the first time, you'd better get that octopus out to a properly cycled tank elsewhere very fast, since it is guaranteed to go through some cycling that will be lethal to any octopus between now and when it's stable.

There is no way anyone here has ever found to avoid this. Reasons why bio-spira is not a solution are discussed here:

http://www.tonmo.com/forums/showthread.php?p=99552

I'm with Animal Mother on this-- if you don't get that octopus to a stable tank environment soon, it is certainly going to die.

:mad:To the store that sold a new set up with an octopus...............Please take him back and if not to the store he was bought, I question their knowledge on anything then to a trusted one that knows what they are doing. I don't blame you for undertaking this too soon, I blame the store for poor information. I'm glad you found us to ask, but unless you know someone with a seasoned tank, the octopus is doomed.

If I were standing around in a fish store and noticed this going on I would definitely have to speak up. I might possibly even go to jail for assault. Man this type of thing burns me up.

I wish cruelty laws applied to marine animals.

I don't blame you Swimdude, that's a hard opportunity to pass up. But GEEZ what people will do for a buck.

well i have been checking the water for the first cycle.

As i said I think the tank will be ready for the guy. I spent a ton of money on cycling products and maybe the combination will help him out.

The store wont take him back because he is a marine animal.

Heres what ive done. I dont have another salt tank cultured that i could put him in but i have gone out and bought:

Live rock to help cycle.
Live Sand
"Prime" to get rid of ammonia
And I bought enough bio-spira to treat 95 gallons. and i used them all for the 65 gallon tank the octo is in.


^THIS WAS ALL DONE DURING THE INITIAL SETUP^

They told me I needed a heater for the tank but everyone has told me he didn't need it so i removed it.

The Octo is at my work in my office. So Im going to go tonight to do a water check. Yesterday when I left the nitrate was at .15. but it hadn't changed since the setup. its stayed at .15.

Every week for the next month I will do water changes and each time ill add bio-spira. enough to treat 20 gallons. I think this will act as a buffer for the ammonia while still letting it cycle.

Let me know what you guys think.

Im trying to safe this guy. Hes showing now signs of stress and is active.

I have a good feeling he'll be ok.

If the ammonia does spike does that do any damage to the octo? other than stress or does a spike of ammonia cause for example brain damage? Or does it just make it stressful on the animal?

ammonia and nitrite are alot more harmful than nitrates IMO and could kill your octo.

Any ammonia even as low as .25 is harmful and you will see him in distress. I have had tanks crash and the reason I realized this was the octopus was trying to physically get as close to the waterline as possible as it burns their delicate skin.

High levels of Ammonia, or Nitrite can cause stress to the animal if it doesn't kill him. Nitrate can be tolerated up to 30 ppm. They will not cause brain damage, the octopus will just not be very happy.

well as i said its only 15 ppm.

which is a normal level for any tank.

any other tips for keeping ammonia low?

a normal level for keeping any tank?
IMO that is pretty high, If my tank was at 15ppm I would be freaking out.....
I try to keep mine from 0-5 but its usually closer to 0, anywhere over 5 and I start getting nervous

Look, this is no way to keep an octopus. You need a well-cycled mature tank. You need to return this octopus to the local fish store where you bought it. It was irresponsible of them to set you up like this for octopus keeping.

Octopuses can't tolerate much ammonia at all. They area also very sensitive to nitrites, as other posters have mentioned.

What are you going to do?

Nancy

well as i said its only 15 ppm.

which is a normal level for any tank.

No way is 15ppm normal. I work in a public aquarium (& university Marine Laboratory) and although we mainly have open flow through tanks, we do have one or two on recirc and consider that we're in serious trouble if nitrates get up to 5ppm.

You need to remember that an octopus is an animal that will produce ENORMOUS quantities of waste, far more than an equivalent sized fish, plus they're very messy eaters so the bioload on the tank is very large and thus it needs to be chemically very stable BEFORE you add an octopus. No matter how much cycling junk you put in it, it will not be stable for a some time, especially with an octopus in it.

OK so you can't take the octopus back, so you are going to have to be exceptionally vigilant with your water quality parameters, and jump on any bad changes immediately. Read the octopus care pages on this site, they are really very good.

BTW if he is indeed a vulgaris, then a 65 is going to end up too small for him, these animals reach 24-36 inches in length. You need to start thinking about rehoming him, releasing him or upsizing your tank (if the latter then get it cycling ASAP!!!).

Sorry to be so preachy but 'tis a subject close to my heart.

and I'd give your LFS a right talking to!

J

OK I did a water check just now.

THe water nitrate is at about 5-10 ppm.

nitrite is zero.

PH is 8.0
.....so far so good.

And yes I am going to be vigilant on water changes and water monitoring.

I added 1/3 cap of prime to help bring down the nitrite and nitrate levels.

I think ill add one more before I leave work but i see no problems so far.

Heres a couple pics of him.
He seems happy he was walking around on the glass and swimming around and interacting with me and showing no signs of stress.

http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=viewImage&friendID=213104046&albumID=652368&imageID=4662159

http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=viewImage&friendID=213104046&albumID=652368&imageID=4662168

http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=viewImage&friendID=213104046&albumID=652368&imageID=4662182

http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=viewImage&friendID=213104046&albumID=652368&imageID=4662129

I wish you luck....You have been given some very real/wise/time tested advice. Not normal for an octopus to be so active so new to a tank. I would suspect he's uncomfortable.

I added 1/3 cap of prime to help bring down the nitrite and nitrate levels.

I think ill add one more before I leave work but i see no problems so far.



It won't help anything. Snake oil.

I wish you luck....You have been given some very real/wise/time tested advice. Not normal for an octopus to be so active so new to a tank. I would suspect he's uncomfortable.

he was very active at the LFS. he was always swimming there too.

It won't help anything. Snake oil.

snake oil?

A product that doesn't really do anything but sounds good so people buy it. The saltwater hobby is filled with such products, and mostly, people seem to buy them because it makes them feel like they are doing something instead of just waiting. :grin:

well i have been checking the water for the first cycle.

As i said I think the tank will be ready for the guy. I spent a ton of money on cycling products and maybe the combination will help him out.

I have never heard of a case where such products actually did anything. The cycle still needs to happen and to stabilize.

The store wont take him back because he is a marine animal.

Will they hold him for you? Is there another store in your area?

Heres what ive done. I dont have another salt tank cultured that i could put him in but i have gone out and bought:

Live rock to help cycle.

Live rock often helps make the cycle happen as the live stuff on it dies during the transition to your tank.

Live Sand
Same as live rock, unless you bought it in a bag - then it is even worse.


"Prime" to get rid of ammonia
I believe that someone here mentioned that Prime and other decloranators are really bad for cephs of any kind. I don't use them, so I really don't know much about them.

And I bought enough bio-spira to treat 95 gallons. and i used them all for the 65 gallon tank the octo is in.

Most of these short cuts are not used by anyone but new aquarists, and generally result in a lot of frustration as they don't live up to their hype.

Keep lots of saltwater mixed up - maybe a 20% water change would be a good idea, considering the chemicals in the water now, and the ammonia level.

It might give your octopus some relief.

Also - what are you feeding your octopus? Is it eating? It should be eating live crabs or even pieces of thawed frozen shrimp.

Nancy

Hi

Firstly, welcome to TONMO.com and I hope you can see that people are not ganging up on you or being negative (except to the shopkeeper) People on this forum have the animal's best interests at heart... and yours!!!

I am shocked that the animal was sold to you in this way. Unfortunetly I think its chances of survival are slim to none. Do you know any experienced marine animal keepers near you who can help or as already suggested try another store? That first store has ripped you off! taken your money and ran, but also you should have done your research first! You may have wasted money as well as an octopus' life.

If you have any other marine aquarists nearby, see if you can scrounge a few handfuls of sand from their tanks as that will be full of all the bacteria you need to get your tank going...

Nitrate of 15 is normal, in a sense. But its only there because it came in with the water, so what i mean is that it is normal for tapwater. That '15' hasnt been 'made' in the tank it came with the water. DO NOT rely on that as being an indication that your tank has cycled!!!

There wont be any nitrite and Im not surprised, its probably because it is all tied up in ammonia just now which is much more harmful and even small amounts can be fatal.

You did in one day, which I recomend should take at least 3 months (90 days).

In the Nitrogen cycle of an aquarium, ammonia is produced by the animal and is very toxic, it is gradually converted into nitrite by bacteria and then less harmfull nitrate and then either taken out by water changes or reduced even further into harmless nitrogen by more bacteria.

No matter what elixers you are putting in your tank from bottles, like many experienced aquarists I have yet to se them live up to the claims.

Do you have an ammonia test kit? get one as a priority if you dont.

If you get any reading from that at all then you need to do a water change to dilute the toxins and make sure that the new water being added is at the same pH, salinity and temperature as the tank.

Your alkalinity is fine and not worth bothering about at this stage. You have a higher reading than the shop becaus eyou have just used new salt to set up, it will diminish over time...

Being active could be a sign of stress in a new octopus! Most new octopuses will sit in the huff for a few days.

You said you spent a ton of money and sorry to say but that shopkeeper seen you coming! I wouldn'd go back there again!

I wish you the very best of luck and anything, ANYTHING, you need to know then please ask here!

cheers
Colin

OK tank results for this morning.

This is the 4th day of the tank being setup.

The Octopus has been eating. Becuase I found One shell Of an emerald crab and tons of legs on the bottom of the tank today.

I cant find him, But i didn't tear the rock structure apart becuase i dont want to stress him.

Heres the test results:

Nitrate: 5-10 PPM
Nitrite: 0-.15 PPM
Alkalinity: 300
PH: 8.4

I bought a seperate test for ammonia this morning. Ammonia level came back at 0.

^ALL THIS DONE B4 THE WATER CHANGE^

I also did a 5 gallon water change removing water from the bottom of the tank were ammonia sits. I also suctioned the dead crabs pieces out of the tank too.

Sounds like you're doing all you can! Good luck and I hope it continues to improve. You're right don't pull the rocks apart, he'll come out in his own good time.

J

im trying....

:/

Good that you got the ammonia test! I know you're trying to make this work.

What will you be feeding your octopus - emerald crabs are expensive!

We recommend crabs and shrimp as the food to start with. You can try thawed frozen shrimp to start with, and live crabs.

Nancy

let me put it this way...

money really doesn't concern me.

So yes i was going to feed him emerald crabs. I have a guy shipping 6 to my doorstep each week.

saves me time going to the LFS

You can get fiddler crabs dirt cheap from aquaculturestore.com

todays readings.

After a five gallon water change....not the best but still not bad.

Nitrate 15-20 ppm says safe for invertabrates on the test kit.

Nitrite .15-.25

alkalinity 300

PH 8.4

Ammonia 0

I added a half capful of prime to the new 5 gallons but should i do another half capful to see if it helps?

I swear by prime i know you guys dont like chemicals and shit but that stuff is sold everywhere and i have never heard a bad thing about it.

the nitrate and nitrite have dropped.

Nitrate is about 5 ppm now.

Nitrite is 0

what test kit are you using?

API for the ammonia test kit

mardel For the nitrate nitrite alkalinity and PH

What kind of water are you using? Is it RO/DI? If so, I would recommend daily water changes for awhile. It will help reduce the toxins in the water. More chemicals in the water will not help at this point. The octopus is producing waste that needs to be removed. In a cycled tank, the waste would be converted/removed by the bacteria. In your tank, the only way to remove it is by water changes.

Keep up the good work. Hopefully this nitrite will quickly go!

Talk about ironry! I helped sort out a few comments on a fishkeeping magazine in the UK and guess what they sent me as a small thankyou? A big bottle of 'Cycle - a super concentrated formula... with beneficial bacteria to consume ammonia'!!!!!!!!!

:/

Did another 5 gallon water change and the water is at 5-10 ppm nitrate and 0-.15 nitrite.

He is still doing good but has been hiding all day.

just like yesterday. but i fouund another craked open crab today.

Is that how octopus eat? do they crack the thing in half and eat out the inside?

Becuase every crab I have ever pulled out has been cracked open and empty inside.

ooo p.s. i was tired this morning and dropped the test tube for the ammonia test kit and it broke so i dont know about the ammonia today.

Yes, that's the way the octopus eats crabs - you'll have to clean up after him!

You really need that ammonia test kit. Could you buy another?

Nancy

A member here, Not going to say who but if the person wants to come out and tell he or shes is they can,

but anyways they are sending me one that sits in the tank and monitors the ammonia level 24/7. It was very kind of them. Thanks again.

thats great news, I have used one of them before and they will give you an early warning!

Ok, Did a 5 gallon water change today.

I did a poor job mixing the salt today becuase when i measured the salt level this morning it was a little low. like 1.20 - 1.19

but i quickly brought it back up. How does low salt levels affect them?

second water conditions are still great.

third hes been eating. all his crabs are gone.

I don't know if anyone has mentioned this to you, but it's advisable to mix up your salt water in advance, and let it mix overnight or for a day. I use a 5-gallon salt bucket and a small, inexpensive power head pump to mix the water, but there are other ways, too.

It's an advantage to have extra salt water on hand, if you have room to store it.

It's a good sign that your octopus is still eating. Do you have more crabs for him?

Nancy

im going to get more crabs today

i have some frozen krill how do i feed him that? do i just put some in and let him find it?

You can put the krill by him but he might not eat it. Most people will use a feeding stick or their hand to put the food in their suckers and then they will grab it and chow.

Yup, wooden skewer or dangle it with your hands next to it. You might try actually sticking it in your octo's arms, and see if it grabs it. Being thawed dead food, it might completely ignore it, but ya never know until you try!

Either way, you want to make sure it all gets eaten or you'll have to remove it soon so not to foul up your water.

Swimdude,
If you find your water parameters out of wack slowly bring the correction about, not in one quick water change. The exception would be for ammonia or nitrite but for PH, salt content, temperature and even nitrate, adjust slowly as if you were acclimating (even over a period of a couple of days is OK). Since the critters in the tank are adjusted to the current conditions, the shock of the change is worse than the missed parameter. They see changes in the natural environment and can survive gentle swings but the instantaneous ones can be harmful and even fatal.

Nancy mentioned premixing the salt. One of the reasons you are showing low salt may well be that you are not allowing all of it to dissolve (I mix for at least 24 hours and usually 48 or more). If you have room, you might consider a 30 gallon or better trash can over even the 5 gallon suggestion (I keep 20 mixed and areating and 16 mixing with my own space limitations and setup). Successful aquariums are a slow paced hobby with lots of work between the rewards.:heee:

ok so i have had two emerald crabs in the tank for a week now.

and the octopus is still very active.

the water is in better shape. everything is zero. nirite nitrate and ammonia.

the salt is a lil low it was about 1.20-1.21 today.

but he hasn't eaten. how often due they eat?

i also had 6 ghost shrimp in there but dont see them anymore.

If there is food always available, it will eat when it feels like it. It would most likely go after the easiest target. If they were freshwater ghost shrimp, they sometimes parish in saltwater pretty quickly. If you don't see their bodies, it probably ate them since they would be imobilized. Then again, they might have just ended up in a crevice somewhere, or eaten by the Emeralds.

sooo after all my hard work.......my octo inked himself today. I cant do a water change tilll tommmorow and it was just brought to my attention now about 4.5 hours after he did it.

So is there any chance he'll be alive now or in the morning?

65 gallon tank,
Small Octo,
Magnum 350 filter.

Does his ink kill the recently purchased mushroom? thanks

Swimdude,
The ink should not kill anything in the tank, it is not poisonous, but you should try to remove it, especially anything that causes an oily slick on the water surface. Depending upon the viscosity, a simple shrimp net may work. Panty hose (new, not washed) are also helpful. Stretch the material over any plastic hoop (cut out tops will work) and skim the water (try not to cause another episode though). It is probably too late to try to suck it up with a turkey baster but I have done that as well. Anything you can add to increase your filtering will help. If you use a sponge, you should rinse it out well as I have found ink in my overflow sponges several times. The only time panic is in order with inking is during shipment because the octo will sufficate before it can be properly acclimated if it has not already died in the bag.

Do you have a protein skimmer? That will remove the ink.

If not, add more or change out your carbon - that will also help remove ink.

D is right, the methods depend on the thickness of the ink. It can be thin, like fountain pen ink, or in thick blobs that are easier to remove.

Do a water change as soon as you can.

Nancy

well he survived the inking but the crabs caught him....i dont know how but i woke up this morning to them chewing on his head....i was sooooo sad.....RIP...Ed....

Awww :( RIP octodude.

RIP :angelpus:

RIP little guy...:cry: