I decided to journal Trapper's hatchlings on a new thread (see http://www.tonmo.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8349 for the mother's journal and the hatchlings first 12 weeks).

Recap summary:

The Mercatoris hatchlings (does anyone know the proper name for octo babies and at what point I should call them juveniles?) began being born March 17th. Over a 5 day period, only six babies hatched. During the first week one died after climbing up the net about an inch above the waterline and apparently could not find its way back into the water. The remaining five are now approaching 13 weeks old (I changed the breeding net to one that is larger and has no netting out of the water). They rarely leave their current shell dens (but do change shells on occassion) and lie in wait for small shore shrimp and pipette fed Cyclop-eeze. Two of them will occassionally hunt the lower side of their partitioned net. In addition to the shrimp and Cyclop-eeze I have provided sailfin molly fry, snails, new hatch brine, pods and live mysis (brine, pods and mysis for the first 3 weeks only and in combination with Cyclop-eeze). The fry and snails are surviving very well on the Cyclop-eeze but the octopuses have no interest in the fish or snails as food. It is appears that they ate the brine, possibly the pods and always the Cyclop-eeze.

So far, there has been no cannibalism but they are very well fed. I have recently twice found one shell firmly secured to another occupied shell but neither octopus seems to have damaged the other. I have also seen squabbles over the use of a particular shell. I keep the shells at least an inch apart and so far, everyone is alive. I plan to add a couple larger shells this week to try to avoid more arguing :roll:

The net is open topped to the water but none have ventured out into the main tank. Since Mercatoris are nocturnal, it is difficult to photograph them and impossible without a flash. They do not appear to be concerned with the flash and remain visible after my attempts to capture them on film (well, electronic media).

lol, they are still so Tiny. I can see an eye peeking out of each of the two circled shells on the far left.

bigred,

If you look more closely (and use your imagination) you will see two arms and two eyes in the shell in the lower right. I wish I could get a shot of one of them out of the shell. They really do look like octopuses and have really grown a lot but they started out much smaller than the cuttlefish. Both are about an inch total length, including arms. The cuttles are ready for their first tank (15 gallon) but the octos are no where near ready to hunt in the 45. It is easy to understand why we don't see these as juveniles from the wild.

:shock: oh, I can see the two arms coming out of the top of the shell, I can't make out the eyes. I can see the eyes on the left because there is more light there, hence more contrast. probably real fun trying to hold the camera still long enough to get a shot without using the flash (I know you didn't want to cause 5 little ( well 15 little 8-) ) heart attacks.)

bigred,
Actually I DID use a flash, the reddish cast is the red LED that is on 24/7 but it is impossible to get a picture otherwise. Stangely enough, they don't react to it much at all (I do tilt it to point just over the netting to avoid reflection and minimize the brightness on the octos). I intended to start flashing the camera every night at feeding time so they would associate the light with food but they really have not reacted to the brief light. The most difficult part is feeding them with one hand to try to get them to come out and trying to shoot with the other :hmm:. One in ten are in focus.

Trapper's five little offspring are still growing. I am still feeding cyclop-eeze nightly with a pipette. The catch some of the live shrimp in the net if the shrimp come close enough to their dens but I don't see them out hunting now and all but one actively show feeding posture when I squirt Cyclop-eeze into the net to announce feeding time.

I still have all five in the same net and intend to separate them soon but have to admit to being a bit lazy about going ahead with the plan. I am seeing two and sometimes three of them creating "doors" from some of the extra shells. Occassionally one will use a shell housing another but so far we have had no known fighting. I do, however, separate the shells when I see this happening and is the primary reason I think I need to split the group. Three of them have been more interactive with the feeding tube (they will grab it and "climb" up with their den's attached) and had decided to put these three together and leave the more recluse ones together but one of the more recluse ones is now also reaching for the tube and insisting on "more food, NOW" (my interpretation of the grab and climb action) behavior so I may wait until the fifth one shows the same confidence before I split them. They are still nowhere near ready for a large tank and my hand feeding may delay their release for quite a while.

I am still worried about how to transition them on to larger food. They continue to grow so I know they are getting nutrition but I have no knowledge of how much they should be growing and thus can't tell if I am underfeeding them. Roy has posted an observation stating that cutting back on food for tank raised octopuses may have a positive impact on longevity but did not include any hints on quantity or age so I am still pretty much shooting from the hip.

I can't tell them apart except by their choice of dens. One has the den behavior of it's mother and only exposes one eye while the others tend to come out enough to see both eyes when they feed.

All five babies are still in their breeder nets (now split into two groups). Up until tonight I wondered if they would ever leave their shells and explore. I do not want to release them to the tank until I am sure they can find food.

Earlier this week one of the shyer ones started leaving his den and staying out all night (and day but not day active). Tonight two others (as well as the original venturer) were out of their shells for at least an hour. I stuck my finger in the net and touched one. The one underneath the platform reached up to touch me and spooked the one I was touching so we had a brief inking but the surprised one did not go back to his shell and we played a little touch me game for a few more minutes.

None of the three were frightened enough by my fingers to go back into their shell but they were not overly please with the flash when I tried to photograph them. The pictures are pretty miserable and I took a number where the octopus saw the camera before I could get even close to focusing and all I filmed was shell:hmm:

The octo that stays out of its den for as long as a full day is beginning to interact in a non-aggressive way! Two days ago it was exploring the lower section of the net so I moved my fingers around on the outside of the aquarium and it responded with an arm wave. This was a definite response and not just coincidence. Several times this week (tonight included) I have wiggled my finger inside the net and it will reach out and GENTLY touch my finger. Tonight we played touch me for about 10 minutes. I ended the game when it blew on my finger but I came very close to being able to touch its mantle and hope to progress to that with this one. So far, none of the other 4 have been this receptive.

In the other net, I have one that is agressive (the one that tried to separate my nail from my finger 8-)). It is always the first in that net to come out for food and grabs at the pipette. If one of the others shows an arm, it will grab at its sibbling. I am planning to move the two in the other net (they seem to coexist very well as you will note in the attachment) into their own aquarium tomorrow and will put the aggressive one in a net by himself.

The attached picture is taken at night with a red light. To the eye, both octopuses appear to be white, only with the flash can you tell that one is showing brown coloration (interesting since they are in an almost identical environment).

Something that might be fun and interesting to keep in mind as you're observing these kids is at what age they start showing various behaviors. There's an interesting report in Hanlon & Messenger (p.145-146) showed that hatchlig Sepia officinalis couldn't learn to stop attacking shrimp behind glass, but adults could, which suggests that some brain capabilities, in cuttles at least, develop further with age... it would be interesting to compare your mercatoris hatchling observations with the batch of bimaculoides Zyan will hopefully have shortly! I'm not sure what the analogous experiment would be for an octopus, though. But it's interesting to consider the difference between brain development needs in octopus hatchlings, which are "on their own" from the beginning, as opposed to humans, which get care, food, support, and instruction from their parents. Maybe young cephs have more instinctive behaviors so they can fend for themselves as their nervous systems develop, while mammals just have instinctive tendencies to accept what their parents give them.

Monty,
I have thought along similar lines and is one reason I had asked Carol when Biddle started to socialize. With 5 it will be interesting to see if the others follow the same behavior pattern as my interactive little guy or if they remain more recluse. One of my reasons for keeping this journal is to MAKE me record my observations at the time rather than just trying to remember.

After I recorded our interaction last night, I played with him a little more later that night (early in the AM). He is definitely interacting with me and not trying to eat my finger (unlike the aggressive sibbling) and is not showing fear. I want to put two of them in the other tank but am somewhat afraid I will lose the contact in the more open environment. I could move the two in the other net but since this little guy wants to explore I keep thinking he would be happier in the larger aquarium. My parameters are not quite equal so I may wait a week to decide ...

Wishy-Washey Momma

Well, OK, maybe it is not their first day at school but I put them into their first tank. I have been delaying this but decided I really needed to move the more agressive one into a net by himself so my best buddy and his net mate went into the 15 gallon tonight. Film at 11:00 - well maybe more like 2:00 AM and on PhotoBucket since they are too long for direct posting.

Well, maybe tomorrow. It seems PhotoBucket is very slow to upload and convert tonight.

Here is one, I don't know if the others will upload or not:

http://s116.photobucket.com/albums/o6/dwhatley/Octopus/?action=view&current=FirstTank03.flv

This is the little guys first experience with rock. He came out several times and just felt the LR with his/her arms. The other one disappeared into the live rock and I have not seen anything but arms coming out for food since.

Cute little guy!

Please be sure to send this to Tony (tonmo) so we can keep it in the gallery - I'd hate for this one to disappear!

Nancy

Nancy,
Unfortunately the stills are not clear enough to keep for posterity and the videos are too long to download to the site. I am trying to get the best of the videos into photobucket now (I can do a direct FTP for pictures but the videos have to be loaded from their download program and converted - takes forever). The listed video is the second best and I have loaded a longer but not as clear one but the longest one really shows him/her touching and examining the LR for the first time and is actually fairly well focused.

I finally got the longer and best of the videos of this little guy's first curiosity about his new environment up to my photobucket site (too long for direct TONMO load).

http://s116.photobucket.com/albums/o6/dwhatley/Octopus/?action=view&current=FirstTank02.flv

There are actually two octopuses in this tank but the other one (always shy) has taken up a home in the LR and only shows its arms. Anyone know a good name for a creature that is ONLY arms? These little guys are over due for a name.

I noticed this strange behavior the other night and was able (sort of) to capture it on video. I now have good night viewing lighting over the 15 gallon tank but all my pictures will be monotone red and poorly focused.

If you look just to the right and below the eyes you will see a continuous movement. That is the tip of the arm being intentionally wiggled. Initially I thought it might be a lure to attract the shrimp but I get this response whenever I wiggle my finger at the glass (more finger movement bring increased activity and I was wiggling my finger while taping) and it seems to be more of a warning or threat than an enticement. It is definitely deliberate but Interpretation is not clear.

http://s116.photobucket.com/albums/o6/dwhatley/Octopus/?action=view&current=ArmWiggle01.flv

The pair in my 15 gallon are proving to be more interesting to observe than the three in the 45 snice I can only find the one in the 45 that has taken the mother's brooding den at the front of the tank.

I have modified the outdoor Flourex light (65 Watt, 6500K) by adding 3 layers of red transparent film and leave the light on 24/7. This gives very good viewing light but poor lighting for photography.

The "female" was finally viewable (I saw more than just arms) but only stayed out a short time after I sat down to observe the tank.

The "male" continued to exhibit interesting behavior. He was again out in the open but had his first arm over his eyes (typical Merc posture). Thinking he may be showing hunger, I offered a small live crab by hand. He disappeared into the LR and proceeded to systematically jet out the carcass of the last crab he had eaten. First the legs flew from the den then the empty body casing but he did not take the fresh crab. OK, maybe he wanted shrimp (there are several live shrimp in the tank) so I hand presented a shore shrimp. He touched and held the shrimp then pushed it back into my fingers when I released it. I continued to offer it and he insisted on pushing it back into my hand (he did not use his siphon and was definitely pushing it into my fingers, not just away from the den area). I then offered it to the extended arm of the "female" who took it immediately.

The male continues to twirl the ends of multiple arms when he sits in the open and he sees movement outside the tank.

http://s116.photobucket.com/albums/o6/dwhatley/Octopus/?action=view&current=ArmWiggleAndBobbing01.flv

In the ID request section, Christine Huffard (Mucktopus) provided a link to one of her published studies on A. Aculeatus:

http://mollus.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/eym015?ijkey=KKEaa79OOS387DW&keytype=ref

and mentions male guarding behavior when a male and female pair of octopuses live within touching distance. I am wonder if this is what I am seeing.

Addendum:
I noticed after posting that I can see a larger sucker near the base of the first arm. The photo is ugly but you can see the enlargement:

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o6/dwhatley/Octopus/MaleEnlargedSuckerCrop.jpg

I also shot another video of the arm movement where you can see the full mantle. I missed the interaction with the serpent. The octopus will rapidly swipe at shrimp to chase them away but gently pushes away the arms of the serpent star. If the serpent insists, the octopus continues to gently relocate the arm until the star accepts the new position. His lack of interest in eating today is a little frightening, surely we are not already approaching the end.

http://s116.photobucket.com/albums/o6/dwhatley/Octopus/?action=view&current=FullMonty.flv

this is a *must read* for me, thanks for sharing and keeping us posted!

Excellent documentation :)

Thanks for recording your observations, "D", and sharing them with us.

I wish we could figure out a way for you to get better stills, despite the red light. Does anyone have any ideas for this?

Nancy

After almost 6 months, I finally named the two babies that live in the 15 gallon. Sistrurus (pygmy rattlesnake) and Medusa (all you see of her is snake like arms).

Sistrurus is the most interactive pygmy I have found in any of the journals on TONMO. Anytime after the light go out in the room (timed at midnight) he will come out when he sees me sit in front of the aquarium. Unfortunately, I believe he is entering the senscense part of his life as he has quit eating live food and will only eat Cyclop-eeze. He pushes away any other offered (alive or freshly killed) but does not hide or ink when I offer it. He did reach up and take a shrimp offered to Medusa two days ago but just bit it to be sure it was dead and then threw it away. Additionally, his patterning appears incomplete when I take a flash picture (not detectable to the eye under the red light) and the arm movement that gave him a name may be the "cork screw" look mentioned in other posts. He does wander the tank for an hour or so early in the morning and I have seen him dash out at shrimp but he does not eat them. His poop is red (Cyclop-eeze) with some darker brown coloration so he may be eating something else during his late night tank crawl.

Knowing this, I was very sad tonight when he did not come out to greet (or warn me away) as he has been doing nightly. I can normally see his eye in his den anytime (day or night) and after 10 minutes of looking, I could not find him. I sat in my feeding chair depressed and was about to feed Medusa when I noticed a frantically waving curled up arm right at the front of the tank :mrgreen: It seems Sistrurus relocated and I just failed to see him right in front of me (his prior den was to the side and close to Medusa's).

Medusa continues to live in the LR and only display an arm or two when she detects Cyclop-eeze. She will nightly take one (and one only) freshly killed shrimp placed in an entrance hole and will eat a portion of it (not the whole thing). Tonight I tried one that had eggs thinking there might be more nutrition and she did eat all the eggs in addition to part of the tail and head (she ejects the remains when finished eating). Some nights she will eat some additional Cyclop-eeze and other she will just blow it away from her den.

I believe these two may have mated. They have lived together all their lives and have never displayed aggression toward each other. I have a photo of them in a barnacle cluster with one above the other. This is only conjecture. I am reasonably certain Sistrurus is a male because of the obvious large suckers on at least two front arms (I can't see his arms clearly enough to check for a hectocotylus and the arms are so small I am not sure I could detect it even with good lighting). I see nothing of Medusa but her arms but she is acting much like Trapper. Curiously, she does not display the curled up arm movement (one of the others has but not as dramatically, Sistrurus does this nightly when he first sees me).

I think I need to remove the live shrimp from their tank soon as I am afraid they will kill any babies that hatch (especially the peppermint that has lived in the tank for over a year).

The three that were left in the larger tank all left their nets within two days of evacuating Sistrurus and Medusa. I located one quickly, the second after a week and the third not at all (one was always exceptionally shy). One has taken Trapper's den. I believe this one to also be female but she is much smaller than Trapper and has taken several shells into the barnacle to fill up the space. I believe she may be brooding as she does not come out of the den. She has been very reluctant to come out to feed but showed hunger tonight and pushed her doors away to eat. I will try offering a dead shrimp tomorrow night.

The second (largest of the 5) has been displaying for food a few minutes after I begin feeding and was also "missing" tonight. I located him (guessing on behavior only - this is the one that also showed the fast curled up arm tip movement) at the top of the tank behind the overflow. Later, I found him in the barnicle cluster (not the same barnacle) as the first. It seems strange that both potential males would move their dens on the same night.

I took a picture of Sistrurus' poop because it tells something about what they are eating and no one could tell me what to look for when I was learning how to take care of Trapper. Although not so obvious in the picture, it looks a lot like a small brissle worm without the brissles. I never actually saw any of Trapper's feces but Sistrurus is not so modest (another reason for thinking he is a male :tongue:).

I obtained the sample when he jettisoned it but do have a question for you biology majors, "What orifice does it come from?"

Since Sistrurus is consistently coming out to visit with me every night, I got bold tonight and tried to gently stroke his mantle. I never attempted this with Trapper but have wondered about the pygmies reaction since several of the bimacs have enjoyed head scratching. At first he kind of scrunched down into the LR (no ink and no disappearing though), then gently pushed my finger away but eventually, he let me "pet" him behind the eyes. He is so small that it was hard to be sure I was actually touching him but I could see his eyes bob with my finger stroke. The second time he was not resistent and seem to get that catatonic look that an iguana has when you stroke it (sort of like rubbing an aligator's stomach - or so they say). I am sure it was the lighting but I swear his eyes glazed over (almost demonic looking). The third time he did not go quite so limp but showed no objection to the attention.

Just too cool for a Merc!

I finally gave names to the three in the 45 gallon tank, inspired by the fact that at 4:00 the morning I finally caught site of Mia (Missing in aquarium) :shock:

Sistrurus and Medusa

Well, I was wrong about Medusa brooding. This past weekend she moved out from the LR and into one of the barnacles. She tried one for a day but has stayed in her second choice since Sunday (2 days so far). She keeps a door handy (generally by capturing a passing snail - she does not eat or kill it). She chose to remain solitary in one of the original shell clusters that was in her breeder net over the more luxurious grouping in the front that Sistrurus uses on a part time basis. I have not seen her venture out of her den but she will still accept a dead shrimp as well as filter feeding Cyclop-eeze.

Prior to this weekend, I have seen Sistrurus make mad dashes out of the LR, into the open and then quickly back, occassionally bumping his mantle on the tank outer wall. I was concerned that this might be old age confusion but have decided it was only timid exploration. He now knows his tank and will wonder in and out of the LR as well as up and down the darker side tank wall (one side faces a refugium with a 24/7 light - lower than their tank but still providing some ambient and keep the keeper from tripping over things). Some nights he will stay out and play (come in and out of view for maybe half an hour) but other nights he retires to his most used den after dinner. I think he sleeps, strolls, sleeps and strolls in spurts but I have not yet watched an entire night - harder to do now that I have a full time job :roll:). He will not take live or dead food from my hand any more and the shrimp and crab population appear to be stable. He may be eating pods as I know there have been some nice sized ones in the tank and I have seen him using his arms as if feeling through the LR. He swats away the live shrimp when they come near but will still gently move the serpent arm when it searches for food in his area (which is any time I am feeding - greedy fella and will reach up and inspect my fingers for food).

I tried a mirror last night and he moved over to the section that would allow him to see his reflection and sat on the wall for quite awhile (after I left the room). I am not sure that the mirror was the catalyst though and I moved it to a section (hex tank) that is not normal form him to tank crawl. So far, I still have not seen him next to it but I will check again later tonight.

Miss Broody, HideNSeek, Mia
Miss Broody does not seem to leave her birth barnacle at all but will filter feed at night and is usually in position when I go to the tank. HideNSeek changes dens but has started to come to the barnacles sometime around feeding time (I don't see him/her go into a shell but will see him/her after I have put Cyclop-eeze in the tank, leave and then return. Mia has been hiding again for two days but I don't think anything is amiss. The shrimp population in this tank also seems to remain stable. I can't tell about the hermits and snails but the small fiddler crabs seem to disappear (hard to know for sure). I did see one shrimp eating hermit remains but this could be from shedding and not octo feeding.

I saw occassional inking if I frightened one of the octos while they were exploring their breeder net. None of the five has inked in the larger envrionment. It is important to move slowly or even Sistrurus will duck into a den and darken but the fear quickly passes.

My initial concern that at 6 months and half the size of Trapper, the baby octos were already close to the end of their life span is diminshed since Medusa was not yet brooding and Sistrurus's actions have other explanations (the curled up arm waving is now a definite feeding posture but he is the only one that exhibits this in a predictable manner). Their minimal eating habits are still a concern (I know they all eat but I would expect more appetite) but I am comfortable I won't see them out walking in daylight anytime soon.

I obtained the sample when he jettisoned it but do have a question for you biology majors, "What orifice does it come from?"

The digestive tract in squid and octopus is U-shaped... food goes in the beak, travels down the esophagus to the stomach and ceca at the end of the mantle, then comes back through the intestine (under the ink-sac), and ends at the anus, near the inside of the funnel. Once excreted from the intestine, the feces is generally blown out the funnel. Yummy. :roll:

There is also a basic diagram of the whole digestive system here (http://www.tolweb.org/accessory/Cephalopod_Digestive_System?acc_id=1993) .

Tintenfisch,
Thanks! The diagram also explains the more opaque spot at the tip of the mantle even on a male. Somewhere I saw that the overies were here but was sure Sistrurus was male so know that the stomach is positioned at the tip give me a better understanding of what I am seeing.

Miss Broody (the possible female that lives in mom's brooding den) has gotten somewhat agressive in the last two days. She will now accept live crabs from my fingers BUT she also wants the fingers :yinyang:. First she secures the crab while holding onto my finger then proceeds to tug with all her strength, lifting the entire cluster of barnacles unless I use a free finger to keep them in place. She will let the crab move from arm to arm but never lets it escape while she pulls herself out of the den with determination. She continues the crab shuffle and hand attack for several minutes. I have not felt anything like a bite (in the past I could feel a numbness from the suction, not the actual beak) but she is quite insistent that my fingers belong in her den.

HideNSeek was a major concern last night and I feared I may have lost one to predation (noting Miss Broody's agressiveness and the fact that he/she will share the barnacle condo at feeding time). He/she was breathing but not moving in the front corner (hex tank) and did not react to finger movement outside the tank (no ambient light). Fearing the worst, I attempted netting but could not get the net under him. Next I dislocated (figuratively) my shoulder and reached over the canopy and to the bottom of the tank to attempt a rescue/quarantine. I discovered that the net had been blocked by a piece of coral and that HideNSeek had actually made a den by burying in the sand, the piece of coral was a door. Once disturbed, he turned indignant brown and crawled to his normal feeding chamber and also accepted a crab. I have yet to read of another merc burying like this but it might explain some of the disappearances. I wish I had not disturbed the den now, as it was a great viewing spot.

Mia is MIA and has been unseen for 3 days. I don't worry about him since he rarely comes over to feed by hand (there is a banquet live in the tank and hand feeding is my choice).

Sistrurus remains consistent and comes completely out of his latest den once the lights are out and someone sits in a chair in front of the tank. After feeding he will often wonder the tank, play a little I spy over the live rock or climb up and "slide" down the tank wall in what seems to be entertainment (he will touch but ignore the floating "toy" in the tank).

I did get an unexpected reaction to the new mirror location. He is very calm as long at the light are off in the room and no one makes any sudden movements in front of his tank. I have knocked the bubble reducer net in the tank almost daily (I finally altered it to minimize this problem) and he does not even flinch when I stick my hand in the tank to retrieve the contraption but last week he turned white, took on a torpedo shape, dashed to the other side of the tank and inked. It took me a couple of hours to realize that he was on the mirror side of the tank when I put my hand in :oops: Fortunately, a few minutes later he was peeking back over the LR to see what was going on.

I am worried that all he is eating is the Cyclop-eeze (at least all I see him eat and I have not seen any obvious diminishing of the live shrimp, snails or hermits). I continue to try other foods (including thawed frozen clam) but he rejects it and ran away from the live crab offering.

Medusa continues to eat one shore shrimp and Cyclop-eeze from her barnacle den. I have not seen her leave this den (her second) since moving in but I do see more than just snake arms now.

Thank you so much, D, for taking the time to document the lives of these little octopuses! I always enjoy reading about them. You've proved that even little noctunal mercatoris can be facinating for the right person!

I'd like a better descripton of the Cyclop-eeze you feed them. I have some in the form of leathery flakes which I used to add to a blender mix for gorgonians. Did you say yours was frozen? And is it whole little shrimps?

And what do you mean when you say they "filter feed"?

Nancy

Nancy,
Thanks for the encouragement. And you bring out a good point in that a keeper must be nocturnal, dedicated and very patient (the babies really didn't do much the first 5 months) to have an octopus experience with the Mercs. Anyone expecting the interaction of the larger ones would be disappointed. Sistruris comes close though :grin:

Yes, the cyclop-eeze I use is frozen (I don't use dry or flake except to feed the food so I am not familiar with the other forms) and it is hard to find the smaller "bars" that used to be sold. It is quite expensive but the quantity is large for the price if you can find it locally. Unfortunately, I have to have mine shipped so I spend an unmentionable amount of money :sad: when I have to buy it. It looks like the frozen is whole critter, red and is slightly larger than new hatch brine. It looks a lot like the specs in Zooplex and about the same color (makes me wonder about what they use in Zooplex since it does not have to be kept cold). All my filter feeding inverts eat it (including the feather dusters) as well as the few fish I keep (excepting the lion, Trundle only eats live shore shrimp).

Filter feeding may be an erroneous term since octopuses have no filtering device but I am whole convinced that the Mercs catch small particles in the water with their suckers and then move the food to their mouths. Cephbase has a photo that shows new hatchlings swimming in the typical Merc posture and brings attention to the raised arms without explanation. I am sure this is a feeding pose.

http://www.cephbase.utmb.edu/imgdb/imgsrch3.cfm?ID=135&PhotographerID=&CephID=555&Location=&Keywords=&LowestTaxa=

All my babies except Sistrurus feed with their arms curled outward from their dens anytime I squirt the Cyclop-eeze into the tank. Sistrurus is more overt and comes out into the openl rapidly wiggling his curled arm tips at feeding time. I fed them late last night and late again this evening and it took Sistrurus 10 minutes to appear tonight (normally it takes about 3 minutes after I sit in front of the tank).

Toward the end, Tapper would climb up the tank wall and position herself to be beak fed directly from the tip of the pipette (I have posted a video of this on her thread) but prior to this she would sweep the water with her arms (and is how I realized she was eating it). I tried putting the food in a shell (among other similar experiments) so that she could "dip" her arm in a rich mixture of the food but she ignored it. If the food is too dense, the octos will blow it away (it may effect their breathing but that is just conjecture based upon my observations). It does appear that Sistrurus will also pick it up on the live rock but I have not seen this in any of the others.

Twice this week Sistrurus has done something a little unusual (actually, everything he does is unusual for a Mercatoris but this is new for him). At feeding time, I put a freshly killed shrimp in close to Medusa's den (she moved to the back last week the night I said she had not moved in awhile). I never see her out hunting but she has always taken my offering. Normally, I will feed Sistrurus for awhile then feed Medusa. Last week I put my hand in the tank to feed Medusa after only giving Sistrurus a couple of squirts of Cyclop-eeze. He surprised me by bumping my hand (he feeds in the front and my had was awkardly positioned in the back behind the live rock). Tonight, he initially ate only a small amount and went to the back of the tank. When he didn't come out for more, I looked behind the live rock and he was sitting over the primary entrance to Medusa's den. After I squirted the area with food, he went to the front as normal. I am not sure what to make of it but it is interesting.

Normally, I will feed these two first, go feed the other three and then come back to this tank to see if Sistruris wants to play. Tonight was a play night and he was wall walking (when he was first introduced to the tank he would make little dashes out to the walls and then zoom back to the LR, now he often climbs up and down the tank walls after feeding time). I put my hand in the tank and he played around my hand for a good ten minutes (can you say prune?). He let me "pet" his mantle and sometimes even seemed to rub against my hand. If I move my hand he would come over to it. He does not climb up into my fingers but will reach out and touch them. There is absolutely no agression or attempts to capture my fingers.

Miss Broody, on the other hand, will take my offering of live crab or dead shrimp but will always try to take my fingers into her den. Her posturing tonight reminded me of an evil octopus pose I saw somewhere (something like this: http://cgi.ebay.com/Long-Boho-Vintage-Silver-Octopus-Charm-Necklace-Catang_W0QQitemZ220155602204QQihZ012QQca tegoryZ50649QQtcZphotoQQssPageNameZWDVWQ QrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem ) and was about as intimidating as a small octopus can look.

HideNSeek will come to the front when he wants to be fed but is very shy. I have to put a shrimp in front of him and then "not look" so that he will take it (but he always does, albeit, sometimes 5 minutes later). He/she has been hungry for the last two nights and moved into a barnacle next to Miss Broody (making him/her easy to find and feed).

Mia, is still MIA. I see him slipping around to the back about once every 10 days and he never comes forward to eat. The fact that I see him secreting to the back makes me wonder if he is visiting Miss Broody at night but that is nothing more than second guessing:sly:.

As I mentioned, I am not sure if Mia's secretive tank front foray's are to visit Miss Broody or for some other reason but HideNSeek definitely had something other than food on his mind when he moved in next door :sly:

I checked on the tank before going to bed and saw HideNSeek with an arm near Miss Broody's den. He quickly returned to his own barnacle when I approached but I sat and watched for the next hour as he VERY slowly (almost undetectably) came back out of his den and inched toward the adjoining chamber. Once he made contact, he magically was in front of her den opening. I watched for five minutes or so with my fingers crossed that I was seeing a mating and not a murder, then got out the camera (probably not the smartest idea since I had to use the flash). I got off two shots and they initially did not seem to notice but you will see a brown object in the second one where Miss Broody began to push a snail shell (as a door) to the front of her den and HideNSeek quickly released her (more from the shell I think than the flash) and flew back to his den, leaving something in the water. With the lighting, I cannot tell if it is ink or sperm. I won't do that again but I will post the two pictures.

its like an octopus clown car... 1 barnicale and 15 octos in it!

Na, just 3 and only two that sometimes share the "car". The little male will "visit" one of the other rooms when he wants to be fed or has other things on his mind but doesn't live there full time. Mia (the other, not in the picture, that I think is male) has been seen toward the front of the tank but does not seem to use the barnacles. Miss Broody lives their full time. I would say it was more of a cat house than a clown car :sly:

Mia showed up tonight and was climbing the back wall, pretending to be a snail part of the time. I am convinced that the "mimic" of the Mimic and Wunderpus is no different than other octos. I think it is the coloration that allows us to see the immitations. I also think the mimicing may be natural or we misinterpret what they are mimicing since the Mercs have shown all the posturing attributed to the mimicing octos and they have never seen the creatures that are supposed to be being mimiced (I have even seen Sistrurus do the "sting ray crawl").

Roy had mentioned that Merc mating was violent. With HideNSeek and Miss Broody, it was not. The night after the above pictures were taken she left her den door fully open and was positioned upside down with her mantle fully exposed to the opening. After 3 days, she found a large shell (still inhabited by a hermit crab) and had closed her den more tightly than ever before and does not open the door. Trying to keep her fed is difficult but the hermit is somewhat helpful. If I put a shrimp near the opening, the crab will take it and then she takes it from the crab. Tonight I gave the crab a male fiddler leg and she still has not figured out how to bring it into her den with the shell blocking the opening. She gives up and then come back to it but will not remove the shell.

Monty, I left the red plastic tubing in the tank even though it has been totally ignored, until tonight that is. HideNSeek was inside it tonight when I came to feed the tank. Once I started feeding, he came out and went to the barnacles in the front but it will be interesting to see if he goes back to the tube now and stays there during the day.

Sistrurus continues to greet me nightly. Most nights he will clown around and play by climbing up and down the tank walls for maybe half an hour while I feed him. Once he is full he will go into the LR or a barnacle shell and sleep. I think he may come out again during the night because Neal has seen him on the glass (acrylic) in the mornings before the sun lights the room. I worry the Sistrurus does not eat enough since, as far as I can tell, he ONLY eats Cyclop-eeze where all my others will eat shrimp or crab (they all ignore the snails and hermits). I also worry that he will be the first to die since he is so much more active than the others.

I am beginning to suspect that Medusa may be male (very sad since I had really hoped to have babies from Sisty). I thought I saw an enlarged sucker last week but couldn't be sure since this one is quite recluse. Tonight, Medusa was in the live rock at the front of the tank and showed her eyes. After eating though she went back to the main rock and Sistrurus reacted quickly and they had a brief skirmish. Medusa made his/her way back into the LR and Sistrurus blocked the opening for a few seconds but did not follow. I am hoping this is a sign that he wants to mate but she is not ready rather than the possibility that they are both male. They have lived very close to each other without problems, choosing to be within arms reach until they were put into the larger tank (they still stayed close for about 2 weeks). Sistrurus' reaction was particularly surprising because he is extremely gentle. If I am seeing a mating behavior, it appears that if a male catches a female in the open, it may match the violence that Roy has seen.

Sisturus has been "wall walking" nightly for approximately 3 weeks. He waits until either Neal or I sit in front of the tank to feed him and then begins his antics (those sticky wallwalkers for kids really do move like Sisty's ballet). His movements are not a regular pattern but he will often go to the top and push an arm or two above the surface, never quite breaking free of the water. Last night (first time) he took two dead shrimp from me after I offered them to his extended arm. He rarely catches live food, has always refused hand feeding and I am always worried that he does not eat well, in spite of the fact that he comes out every night within a very few minutes of one of the food slaves presents. He is more interactive with Medusa and the contact is less aggressive. I have seen her reach out to touch him when he is doing his wall climbing and sometimes they tussle for a second or two but not violently and no one is missing arm tips or has sustained any damage. I don't know if this is courting behavior or just two octopuses reaching maturity in a small tank. Tonight they were both in the same barnacle cluster and when I sat in front of the tank both came out at about the same time. Sisty covered Medusa's shell, quivered and then arched over the opening for a maybe a minute but there was no biting and no arm reaching into the shell.

Medusa has decided to be more social all of a sudden. Tonight she kept reappearing fully out in the open (usually once she disappears you are lucky to see an arm or two and she has shown her full body only a very few times) and actually did a little wall walking (first I have seen). I don't know if this is emulating Sisty (she has been obviously observing him for about a week) or something else. I am going to do a water change tomorrow just in case but I don't think anything is amiss with the tank (I am 4 days later than usual on my every two week change - went out of town - so I am nerveous). This could be the beginning of the end but Trapper did this for a month or more before brooding her eggs.

Miss Broody I am relatively certain she is going to or has laid eggs. She has baracaded herself in her den for almost a month now and only tonight opened her door fully to feed (with lots of encouragement). I tried looking into the barnacle with a flashlight but, like her mother, she fully blocks the back wall of the shell (I never saw eggs in Trapper's den). She fed for quite awhile tonight for the first time since closing her door so I am hopeful she will continue to eat.

HideNSeek shows up (i.e. lets me see him) whenever he is hungry but stays hidden on nights when he catches his own food or is not interested. He has not used the red tube as a hiding place again but he changes sleeping quarters often. He stays low to the substrate and often hollows out places under the rock for his hidding place. None of the others have "made" a den, choosing the rock or shells instead.

Mia continues to be missing most of the time and is still only seen weekly or bi-weekly climbing or resting on the back wall of the tank. He never comes forward to feed and was the more recluse of the 5 from the beginning, never sharing a barnacle cluster with any of the others.

Tony is an orange and black striped serpent star that now thinks he is an octopus. He is often seen inside one of the barnacles attached to Miss Broody's den with arm swaying in the water catching food (at least until he detects feeding time, then he starts feeding in ernest and leaves the shell). Tonight he was wall walking (or at least trying to) and managed to crawl about 4 inches up the tank wall before sliding back to the bottom. Since he can't possibly observe the octos in the normal sense, it is quite interesting to see the similarities, none of the other 10 or so serpents I have acts like this one.

Well, the wall walking behavior new to Medusa seems to be the better of the two alternatives (water quality vs readiness to mate). This evening Sistrurus was out doing his wall walk before we sat down to the tank (not previously observed) and Medusa was inhabiting his last sleeping chamber, hummm.After about 5 minutes into their feeding time, he went to the den and poked an arm in :sly:. He took this position for maybe 3-4 minutes and I was able to (more or less) get a representative shot. I have photo shopped it to reduce the red and with close observation and a little imagination the event has been recorded. If you look closely at the enlargement, you can see the enlarged suckers at the base of several arms (all arms have this single enlarged sucker but they are most easily seen on the front ones).

Miss Broody ate tonight for the first time in over a week. Since she completely opened her "door" I thawed extra Cyclop-eeze and continued to feed until she closed it again. If my assumption that she started brooding eggs when she closed herself in is correct, I expect hatchlings any time. All three octopuses were hungry so I even saw Mia tonight.

Sistrurus and Medusa continue to come out nightly. Medusa no longer stays hidden in the rocks at night and is the first one out on the "glass" (even if I have not come to the tank) but still does not voluntarily interact. Sistrurus has started very active tank walking and jetting about during feeding time. I have read that this activity is a sign of senenence but he only seems to give a floor show while someone is watching (I have not seen him dancing about when I approach the tank or check in on it without sitting down). Medusa will tank walk but is still far more timid and is sometimes grumpy. I have seen Sisturus approach her and touch arm tips without any sign of aggression between them but at other times they will quickly meet beak to beak (without actually touching mouths) and seem to be squabbling. Neither turns deep red during these meetings and they are brief but it does make me nerveous. Tonight Medusa jetted across the tank in front of Sisturus and took a very aggressive (possibly defensive) position. She held two of her arms very rigidly out from her body (not the typical arms up between the eyes pose) and made a quivering motion with them. The whole length of the arm was in a tight motion, not just the tips like in the video that gave Sisturus his name. She did not attack but look ready to take on a ninja.

Sadly, I lost Trundle, my adult dwarf Lionfish this AM. He was noteably active last night and this morning I found him on the floor. We had a cold snap and don't (rephrase, didn't) have the heat on but that is the only thing I can think of that might have cause him to act strangely. I have had him since he was quite small, he was a beautiful specimen. The tank just isn't the same without him. I think I started to feed him at least three times today :cry:

Sorry about the loss of Trudle :sad:

What an interesting journal you're keeping! The photos add a lot, too.

Nancy

Sistrurus and Medusa continue to interact longer with me and more with each other. Sisty will "play" for almost an hour and I am usually the one to stop (to feed the other three). Medusa does a lot of observing and acts a lot like a shy dog that really wants to be petted but is afraid of people (I pet Sisty on the outside of the tank).

Here are a couple of rather poor quality (and worse when uploaded and converted on photobucket) that show their newest interaction:

http://s116.photobucket.com/albums/o6/dwhatley/Octopus/?action=view&current=SistrurusMedusaGreet.flv

http://s116.photobucket.com/albums/o6/dwhatley/Octopus/?action=view&current=SistrurusMedusaHug.flv

http://s116.photobucket.com/albums/o6/dwhatley/Octopus/?action=view&current=SistrurusMedusaChillin.flv

And two of Sisty's typical clowning around when I am at the tank (you can see Medusa s l o w l y climbing up the tank on the back right). This was a short bit of play, he will swim and climb most of the time I will sit with him. When he tires he usually sits on the glass and likes to be "petted" (from the outside) which usually bring Medusa closer to the front for attention. I continue to worry that his exuberance is sesenence but he does not seem to act like this unless he has an audience.

http://s116.photobucket.com/albums/o6/dwhatley/Octopus/?action=view&current=SistrurusSwim.flv

http://s116.photobucket.com/albums/o6/dwhatley/Octopus/?action=view&current=SistrurusClimb.flv

Miss Broody: This is the 4th week since Miss Broody has lock herself into her den but still no babies. She will feed a little by sweeping the water and substrate with one arm poking through a tiny opening in her doorway and may be taking some food offerings left in the shell she uses as a door (it may be one of the other two octos taking the shrimp and fiddler claws I offer).

MIA: I may have confused Mia and HideNSeek at times. I know HideNSeek is a male but thought Mia never came to the front of the tank and am unsure about his/her gender. Tonight one of the octopuses was again in the barnacle cluster where Miss Broody has lived ever since being release to the larger tank. I have always thought it was HideNSeek that occassionally takes a room at this inn and that Mia stays solely to the back of the aquarium. However, tonight I noticed that there was an octopus in HideNSeek's usual feeding place AND an octopus in the barnacle. I just checked in on them again and Mia is now in the back of the tank and HideNSeek is still in his normal place so it might be that Mia has been coming up front occassionally for food all along. I did get a reasonable look at two arms while Mia was feeding and could not identify the overly large suckers I see on both Sistrurus and HideNSeek so Mia may be female but there are times when I can't see the identifying sucker on Sisty so I can't be sure.

I have noticed that Miss Broody and her mother both kept a supply of shells outside their dens but they are not the "midden" pile of expended food carcasses often referred to in the "how to find an octopus" literature. The Mercs seem to want their waste well removed from their homes and always jettison the remains as far away as their siphons will carry them. The pile in front of the female den is an assortment of doors that are swapped out from time to time. When a barnacle it too large to be comfortable, the octopuses have hauled in shells to fill the space and leave the shells inside to be used next time they inhabit the den. Either HideNSeek or Mia have decided that an escaped suction cup from one of the breeder nets makes a good door and has moved it to two different den sites.

Last night (8 months - 1 day since the first of Trapper's young were born) three little octo babies were released to the tank. I caught 2 but one evaded me and the breeder net tipped sideways into the water this afternoon (suction cup failure). I think I see one of the two that were in the net but am not 100% sure (I had forgotten HOW small they are!). Hopefully I will see both in there tonight when I feed. If Miss Broody follows in her mother's footsteps (arm steps just doen't work), I should see more young over the next 3 days. The two that I was able to catch and contain appeared healthy and at least waved their arms at the Cyclop-eze last night. The one that "got away" was very mobile but the tank is not baby safe (shrimp, overflow and a fish I have never been able to catch that was supposed to be food when it was fry) so its fate is not promising. I cleaned down the walls today (and tried, again, to catch the stupid sailfin molly - they eat their own young so it is a valid concern), removing all the white specs (mostly tiny feather dusters) in hopes of seeing the little guys clearly before they are consumed or washed away (I also don't know if the other two octos in the tank would consider them as food). There is a sponge in the overflow and my first batch were able to negotiate it but I would rather not take the chance if I can get to them right away.

I still have never seen an octopus egg :hmm:

:baby::baby::baby: Congratulations OctoMom!

congrats!

So far I have 4 in the net and one known live still roaming the tank. I have not seen the one I missed last night, the roaming one was born this evening. The ones born tonight seem bigger than lasts night's trio but it is hard to tell. I am quite sure one was considerably larger than all the others though (keep in mind that these are tiny critters). For a reference, on the glass they look very much like a white, hungry (not bloated) Georgia tick. Myserable comparison but that's what they look like.

:baby:Congrats D!!!! I did not read that one had eggs. Looking forward to pics!

C

Congratulations! This is the third generation, isn't it?!

Nancy

Miss Broody(mother) and HideNSeek(father) are sibblings from Trapper so these are first generation tank bred and second tank raised and third in the tank.

It has been a loooong week and I have been up until 5:00 AM most mornings monitoring the hatching. I have lost count of the number of babies we have put into the net but I think it is close to 30, assuming some are not escaping and being reincarcerated. There are still 5 loose in the tank that refuse to crawl to a place of capture or are spooked by my capture technique (which makes me suspect escapees :wink:). Sometimes I wonder if I have recaptured numerous babies since they are all but impossible to see in the nets during the daytime and I only see 4 or 5 in each net at night.

Miss Broody seemed to release 4-6 a night for 5-6 nights but, unlike Trapper, I never saw her release even one and I think she would wait until I left before doing so. I found that if I would come up to the computer for an hour, there would be more babies to catch but sitting there watching was fruitless. We are assuming she has finally finished releasing young since there have only been the 5 elusive ones spotted for two nights (well mornings actually). Fortunately, neither the shrimp nor the male octos seem to bother the little ones.

I am feeding both nets Cyclop-eeze but am putting tiny (when I can get them) crabs and shrimp in one net but not in the other.

I am thinking about trying to acclimate a couple to daylight but am not committed to the idea, primarily because of my concern that it may hurt their eyes.

if they somehow became diurnal it would be awesome to finally have small octos that require smaller tanks, and are more economic yet still diurnal. Though it is risky, maybe attempt it with only 3-5 of them and see if the results are good or bad, and if good proceed with more.

Simple,
Yes, that is my temptation but having observed the "day" walk of the dying Mercs, it has occured to me that their eyes (and also the reason I have so few decent photos) may be painfully sensitive to light but that they start loosing their site in the end. I am not sure how I could tell if they were adjusting without pain and will have to think about this awhile yet. Also, mine are already in-bred. I may be able to dilute the next generation slightly by pairing cousins but I just don't know the ramifications of continuing this line. A lot will depend on the health of these babies (and if Medusa and Sistrurus also have young). Miss Broody had 5 times as many babies as her mother but the count is still quite low from what is considered normal (mind you I am not complaining that there are not 100).

You should be able to notice loss of sight by how they are hunting in comparison to the nocturnal ones. It would also be a good idea to only use low ambient light for the diurnal ones in order to keep the amount of light they get as low as possible, and maybe later increase it a little. These are just suggestions, as i am relatively new to octo keeping overall, but i would just love it if there were diurnal dwarf octos (hence, why i am so interested). Please keep us updated.

I dont think I would worry too much about in-breding yet. Many inverts are inbred for successive generations without problems and I think I am right in saying that it was the F14s that were only starting to show problems in the NRCC's Sepia when I was there. I remember having that conversation with James in 2002.

Keep up the very good work D

Thanks for the in-breeding info Colin. I would like to continue with these guys for at least one more generation if I can but have been concerned about the effects of in-breeding. Do you recall what occured at the point of problems? Since I started with a low birth rate and the tank raised generation improved on live born, so far so good (but still low from what the "statistics" quote). Should I look for malformation, failed eggs (I have yet to see an egg and would swear these were live births if I didn't know better), reduced live births? I am not even a little bit trained/educated in biology so I am only guessing (and somehow I don't think I could identify -retardation) and could use some coaching!

Speaking of untrained observation and second guessing. I am beginning to think that the Mercatoris (assuming that is what I have) may be inclined to be more scavenger than hunter. My thinking is certainly anticdotal but in review,
Trapper (1st generation WC female adult)
- She was by-catch from a stone crab trap. Stone crabs are too large for Mercs to kill and eat, was she after the bait?
- Snails and hermits ignored in the tank (mithrax crabs may have been eaten but it is unknown if they were alive or dead when consumed).
- While brooding she ate best when hand fed and eventually would not take live food but would take freshly killed food.
- After the hatching she actively at the zoo plankton I was feeding the hatchlings and would not take other food.

Tank raised (2nd generation, Trappers offspring).
- In the breeder net, would only catch shrimp from their shells, only one of 5 left the den to apparently hunt.
- All 5 could not or do not catch live shrimp after being released to the tank but will eat them if fed by hand (the one that "hunted" just swats them away now). Some will take "live" by hand others will only take dead and ink if given live.
- Ignored fish fry in breeder net (offerred after several months of age).
- Ignored snails in breeder net (all snails survived the 5 months the octos were kept in the net) and are ignored in the tank.
- Igored hermit crabs in breeder net and continue to ignore them in the tank.
- Brooding mom would take crab claw but would swat away shrimp that could have easily been eaten, will take dead shrimp or crab.
- All continue to eat Cyclop-eeze daily, only minor evidence that crabs in tank are being eaten (unknown if consumed before or after death in tank, no remains are ever found).
- All 5 seem to be living a normal lifespan.

Tank bred (current week old hatchlings)
- Have not eaten tiny live shrimp in net.
- One of two tiny crabs still in the net, second may have escaped - no carcass in the net.

Additionally, I have seen no signs of cannabilism and wonder about the origination of the statement. I don't recall Roy mentioning it in the blue rings either (he did mention "touching" and infections that seem to arise from it). The babies do seem to squabble over dens (I added more) and react when they bump into each other but there is no inking or paniced flight. The same has been true of the two second generation I keep in the 15 gallon.

Lastly, sadly, I think Medusa is a slow to mature male and not a female (sad because I was hoping for young from Sisturus, not because I needed more hatchlings to raise!). I started to notice enlarged suckers a couple of weeks ago but they were not as large as those on Sisturus. Medusa has always watched Sisturus and eventually copies his behavior (or so it seems). This week Medusa started curling up the third arm to the right. At first I had hopes of mimicing but the suckers on the arms are definitely larger so I think Medusa is a late maturing male (Sisty and HideNSeek matured at about the same time so I think Medusa is the latent one). I suspect the meeting tussels are a dominance thing and it seems they now meet (when they are going to grab each other) with their enlarged suckers exposed which makes me wonder if the enlargement has something to do with dominance. I think the "mating" I saw and recorded was either exploratory or an "any port in a storm" kind of action since there were no females available to a randy male.

If Roy or Crissy are monitoring, comments on my thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

I am pretty sure it was only to do with the success rates of breeding/hatching and the vitality of the youngsters...

I have absolutely no idea how many fry are in nets and how many are still loose in the tank! I thought I was recollecting three to five each night for the last 5 or 6 night (I did finally think of something to block the hole in the net) but Monday night I was observing the tank at 3:00 AM and discovered that Miss Broody was still tossing them out of her den :roll:.

She took a shrimp early Monday night so I initially thought it was shrimp remains or poop that she jetted out until it started swimming. Same thinking with the second and third :shock:.

I have seen some of them go into the live rock so I am at a total loss on how many there are. If I figure 5 a night for 10 nights I think I would be close (since we counted 30 - give or take - that were caught). She is still keeping a shell door tightly closed on the den and I did not observe last night so I don't know if we are done yet or not.

Not knowing how many hatchlings there were also makes it impossible to know how many losses there may have been. So far all the ones I have seen appear healthy, are eating and I have seen no dead ones in the nets but I don't see many live ones either (perhaps 10 per net late at night) as they hide in every imaginable cranny in addition to hiding on and in the shells.

There is one that has been isolated from the others and given a name. It had been seen swimming early in the evening when there are still white LED's over the tank. Neal insisted on naming it Blade after some show (movie?) about a day walking vampire :roll:. I have one other in that net because I moved the red plastic tube (that Monty found) into the same net and a baby octo had already taken residence. I am feeding the diurnal hopeful net between 6 and 7 in the evening but also feed at 11:00ish and 2:00ish when I feed the others. Tonight I did not see Blade swimming when I fed but did see him later, with lights still on, on the side of the net. I tried stroking the tank where he was perched and he did move an arm in response so I am convinced he is not blind.

wow thats very good, keep us updated on Blade, and hopefully other will follow his habits. If you do get any more of them to turn diurnal, that you wont be keeping, i would be very interested in purchasing one. Maybe if you separate a small group and only feed during the day they will be more inclined to come out. Also, if you catch any of them out during the day try feeding them, sort of like a reward and they might learn that if they are out in the day they will get more food than usual. These are just some suggestions, that i thought of today at school..

Exciting to hear of so many babies!!!

:D

Wow! Such fun! I am a tad bit jealous. Keep up the great work :)

AM,
You know the drill. If your interested in going back to pygmies, let me know but I thought you were considering attempting brooding briareus(?)

I have been trying to photograph Sisturus' enlarged suckers as he seems to have "extras". According to Mucktopus, the norm is two or four but Sisty has enlarged suckers on all eight arms and double enlarged suckers on most (if not all, very difficult to determine as he won't hold still with them exposed for long). Here is the best shot I have managed todate. Note the curled up hectocotylus as well.

So far so good, I think :hmm: I still have no idea how many babies I have or ever had in the nets. I still have a couple loose in the tank and can usually see them sometime after 1:00 AM. I only KNOW about two deaths. One that had lived in the red tube (and may have died many days before I realized it) of unknow cause and one I found in the overflow filter sponge (I rescued two from the sponge but this one managed to get below the exposed part at the top).

I put the octo from the red tube in a dish of saltwater and after two days, it looked no different than when I found it so I am not sure how long ago it died. I have not found other dead ones but have added a couple of snails to the nets for clean-up and would expect they would remove any remains before I would see them.

It appears that the little guys are eating the small shrimp I put in the nets as the shrimp disappear and I found a shrimp head in one net tonight. This group seems more recluse than their parents but it may be I just don't remember how hard it was to find them at this stage :wink:. They are still very, very small and well camoflaged in the white netting and grid.

All five adults are still doing well. All the males now spend at least some of their wake time near the top of the tank with occassional experimentations with their arms quickly out of the water (not long enough to break the water coverage though). Sisty started doing this several months ago but the others do it far less often and did not start until this month. During the day, they all remain hidden.

Mia has a new "big" octo trick that he has employed twice. He has squited water at me when I have annoyed but not frightened him. The spray does not get me wet but it does come about 4 inches above the tank.:heee:

Miss Broody has survived her first month post-hatching and is still taking a shrimp nightly and feeds on the Cyclop-eeze. She will drop her doorway after I start feeding the tank but I have only seen her leave her den once and that was a quick stretch without losing contact with the shell. I have noticed that she breathes very heavily during feeding and she seems to have some difficulty extracting the shrimp from the large pipette I use. She is conserably larger than any of the four males and I wonder if this is a distinct difference in the sexes (this is the first time I have seen her full body since she started brooding her eggs).

How big are you adult males?

AM,
You know the drill. If your interested in going back to pygmies, let me know but I thought you were considering attempting brooding briareus(?)

Well, between being unable to determine the issues with the past two octos and the difficulty of finding another source I moved all my corals into the 75 and got a couple of frogfish. I still have my 30 gallon set up though :)

I might be able to keep a few, given they will tolerate each others company.

AM,
My 9 month old males are quite small compared with their mother (who was quite large - about twice the mantle size). Measuring Sisturus (good ole Sisty is always out at night and still plays with me for anywhere from 15 min to an hour), his head and mantle in a resting position is 1", his arms are about 2" from tip to beak.

At one month the babies are still too small to ship and I could not find more than 6 in the nets tonight. This does not mean that there are not more (and I suspect there are at least twice that many) but they have lots of hiding places and are very difficult to find. The six I found tonight came out for feeding (first time) so I got some kind of head count. I have not found any more dead and I do not believe they kill and eat each other (in spite of what has been posted, observation suggests otherwise) so I either have escapees roaming the tank or they are in the shells and between the grid rungs. I need to review my posts to see at what age I could consistently count their parents.

I have my original 5 living together as two males in my 15 gallon and 3 (two males and one female) in my 45 without problems. The boys will "attack" each other from time to time but there is no panic in the encounter and no detectable attempts at harm. My uneducated guess is that I am seeing dominance challenges. The two males in the larger tank don't seem to attack each other as often as Sisturus and Medusa but do hang out together in the back of the tank much of the time (where I can't observer well). Sisty and 'Dusa will touch each other without being in "attack" mode and the whole of their interaction seems more playful than aggressive (no ink, no damage, no color changes, no panic detachments).

The Mercs don't seem to be interested in attacking anything live other than crabs (they did eat live shrimp as babies). They leave the snails and hermits alone and never paid any attention to the small fish fry I raised for them (sailfin mollies). As adults, they do not even catch the shore shrimp but will eat it if I kill and immediately feed the body and tail section by hand (or in the case of the all the ones in the larger tank, with a long pipette). I am not sure Sisty and 'Dusa even eat the crabs (they do go missing after about a week though) but I have seen HideNSeek catch one recently and believe MIA catches them fairly regularly. At 9 months all of them come to the front of the tank at supper time but MIA only stays long enough to be seen and then goes to the back of the tank and waits for food to be delivered.

I think, but cannot be sure, that the smaller tank has helped with having more human friendly octos. Medusa was very shy at first and I only saw arms for several months after introducing them to their own tank (out of the breeder net). Sisty has been active from the beginning and was the most active in the net. Medusa is still much shyer than Sisty but seems to watch him and copy his actions. He will take a shrimp by hand (from fingers) and stays out almost as much as Sisturus but is not at interactive. The three in the larger tank will only take shrimp from a large pipette (about 8" long) and only interact at feeding time. Besides the tank size difference, the smaller tank is in our eating area and more heavily trafficed which may have a greater impact than tank size (and would somewhat correlate with your observation that Einy liked to be around movement rather than bing isolated). Their only tank mates are serpent stars (and a very small common star in the 15 gallon and a pencil urchin in the 45), hermits, snails and bunches of brissle worms.

Picture of HideNSeek (the father of my current babies) waiting for food to come down from above :hmm: You can see Miss Broody's arm inside the barnacle shell as well as my over population of bristle worms (they love Cyclop-eeze too).

I have mentioned that none of my Mercs have never eaten snails or hermit but Sisty may have made a liar out of me last night. I fed them very late (early AM) and Sisturus was not at all happy with me. He decided to do a zoom to the back of the tank when I finally showed up and collected a snail crawling on the tank wall along the way. He seemed to use the snail as something to grasp and then popped his entire mantle and head out of the water several times. No pictures, of course but very strange behavior. He still had the snail shell with him tonight up until feeding time. Initially he was reluctant to come out of his den (most unusual as he is usually waiting on me) but eventually came out leaving the empty snail shell behind and acted normally.

It also appears that the two fiddlers I put in the tank last night have been consumed (or at least I can't find either one of them). Medusa and Sisty rarely eat the live fiddlers and one will usually stay in the tank a week or more before disappearing.

The appetities of all 5 seem to be increasing as they approached and surpassed 9 months old.

It maybe the overly bright full moon or the fact that my brood is nearing their end but HideNSeek took up residence in Miss Broody's condo last night and mated with her for over an hour ronight (I was too excited to look at the time but I took photos over most of the event and they are time-stamped :smile:). It is highly unlikely that Miss Broody has eggs or would survive a second brooding but it was interesting to know that the Mercs would breed a second time. Miss Broody is the only female of this group so I would say "any port in a storm" but MIA has never demonstrated the mating behavior of HideNSeek (taking close residence a day or so before mating). The first time, HideNSeek mated for two different nights but was interupted with the camera flash during his first attempt. Tonight the camera did not scare him away (one may have inked though) and he spent a full hour poking around in her shell with his hectocotylus. This time I had an excellent view and could actually see the tip of the arm as he would investigate. He seemed to withdraw the arm and it would bunch up almost into a ball for a short period of time then he would straighten it and continue to prod and poke inside the shell, sometimes giving a shutter.

It was both terrifying and interesting as I was not 100% positive that he was trying to mate. There are so many references to predation that I was concerned he was attacking a weakened female but ultimately, it was clear I was seeing a second mating. I considered separating them but decided against interferring, knowing that Miss Broody was scheduled to expire soon (her hatchlings are over a month old) and if I separated them, HideNSeek would simply return after I stopped observing. Fortunately, my first inclination was correct and I still have not witnessed any kind of cannibalism with the Merc. Most of the babies have "disappeared" so I cannot say it has not happened but I have yet to see anything close to a killing.

Sadly, the pictures are ALL out of focus but here are the best of the bunch, notice the lump in the last picture, that is the best I could do trying to get a picture of HideNSeek drawing his hectocotylus up into a ball off and on during the event:

Hey D - you will have real problems shooting into an aquarium if you aren't perpendicular to the pane. Shooting at an angle will distort the image and the camera will have problems with auto focus. Also, it looks like you have a plexi tank, which can cause distortions because of the bowing of the pane.

Other than that, what a great night you had!

I don't think Miss Broody was overly pleased with HideNSeek's amorous overatures. Sometime after my photographs, she moved to another shell (she had not left her brooding residence for more than 5 minutes since release to the tank). When I tried to encourage her to take a shrimp, she left her new dwelling and scampered off into the live rock. This is the first time I have seen her even investigate the main tank. I could not find her at all last night. Tonight she was in yet another of the barnacle condo shells until HideNSeek snuck up on the shell. He acted strangely and was sneaking to the shell entrance in full camo. Once at the front of the chamber, Miss Broody sprung out at him. He dodged her, commandeered the shell and took up a feeding pose. Miss Broody darted for cover under the LR but continued to watch the outside world until she noticed I was watching her, then she again vanished. All very unusual.

Sisty and Medusa are together more and more often but with little or no fighting. They do appear to be trying to mate with each other during the encounters and I have gotten a very clear look at the tip of the hectocotylus as they explore for an opening. Randy little critters - brings to mind the opening clip of the Mr. Hell video :sly:

Miss Broody has disappeared and has not been seen for two weeks. I see a shell that is wedged up into a live rock cubby but it has not moved (a near by shell has) and her arms don't come out when I feed Cyclop-eeze. She left her den several days after her second mating with HideNSeek and I am afraid she has not eaten since.

HideNSeek and MIA come out for feeding at night but don't interact much with each other or with me. Both will take a freshly killed shore shrimp most nights but will often hide afterwards rather than staying out or exploring. They seem to be eating more crabs now but I don't see them catch them.

Sisty and Dusa still live well together. We see them out touching each other early (for them - about 10:30 ish) most every night but I am having a hard time getting pictures. They are also showing some physical signs of aging but are much more interactive than the other two males in the larger tank.

Babies are two months old but I still don't know how many have survived. There are two that feed openly at night but I think there are more that come out later and eat the live shrimp. I separated one that was more aggressive than I felt was safe in the net but I believe he escaped into the tank through a hole I failed to notice and cover (I spotted one loose two nights ago but could not catch it). I think there were fewer hatchlings than I originally guestimated now that I know they have been escaping but I really can't guess on the numbers with any feeling of confidence other than I know two died and I counted ten alive at one point. I have not found any more dead but know there are fewer than ten left. The ones I do see are about the size of an eraser.

Great picture :)

Wonderful journals D! We picked up a merc from our lfs about 4 weeks ago and this week we discovered that she is expecting! Your accounts are going to be so helpful! Thanks a million and best wishes for continued success!
Greg

BTW, what was your routine regarding reef additives (if any) while you had octo eggs (Reef Plus Vitamin Amino Acid Supplement, Reef Complete Calcium Supplement, etc.)? Up to this point, my wife has added such things to all six of our tanks twice a week for corals, liverock, etc., but had a moment of concern when she remembered that we now have octo eggs in one. Thanks!
Greg

Greg,
Octo biology is so different from most other things that the recommendations are to NOT add the typical enhancers. Since I don't keep much other livestock with my octos, I have followed this advice. It is not that vitamins, calcium and iodine (the things I personally add to my reef tanks) are known as negatives it is just that the effects are unknown. I have not had the rate of success (83% - lost one of the 6 born when it climbed out of the water) I had with the first goup. I can think of four things that are different

1. There were considerably more fry so underfeeding and possibly predation may have been a problem.
2. I fed live shrimp earlier this time and they eat less Cyclop-eeze in favor of the shrimp.
3. I did not include new hatch brine in the first weeks of feeding (I am wondering if it might help hydration since there is no nutrition but it is not a proper food and should never be the only food)
4. This batch is inbred (first is unknown).

I don't know which, if any of the above are impactive. I will suggest, however, that you find some frozen Cyclop-eeze to feed both the new borns and the mother when she stops eating (you can offer it to her now as I feed this to mine nightly along with shore shrimp (freshly killed nightly) and crab (live in the tank about one a week are consumed). I thaw it in a small dish with saltwater and use a plastic pipette to put it in the tank/breeder net. Do not squirt it directly on the octos though as they do not seem to like the "wind" from the squirting. Also be sure it is well diluted as it seems to bother them if it is too dense (I don't think this is a major thing but they do eat better if it is well diluted and I think it has to do with breathing - just conjecture).

Please start (if you have not already) a journal on your new critter!

Sisty was really funny tonight. Since I was overhauling my reef (for the new octo) in the breakfast room, the lights were on well past the norm (lights are normally off at 10:30 ish and feeding is roughly at 11:00 but it was closer to 1:30 tonight. I have fed late many times before but the lights were off at the normal time). The minute I turned the lights off Sisty was out front on the LR doing his very fast arm wiggle and glaring at me (he does not do the arm thing very often any more). When I passed by the tank he sprang to the glass and continued with the frantic arm gesture. Normally, I have to feed a few rounds of Cyclop-eeze before they want their shrimp but he was so determined to get my attention, I offered shrimp after only a couple of squirts and he grabbed it from my fingers. When I offered the shrimp to Medusa, he climbed up my finger and took it directly with his beak (or at least inside her webbing). Dusa is usually fussy about the shrimp and sometimes does not want it from my fingers but will take it from a tube so this was an interesting event. He did not continue to grab at my hand once he had his shrimp and did not try to bite but made it clear I was late feeding and should be ashamed :lol:.

One just does not expect this much interaction/reaction from the Mercs and I wish I knew if there is anything I am doing that has encouraged it or if these two are just unusual. I will put two of the hatchlings in the same tank to see if location and tank size (heavily trafficed room, small hex tank) could be part of the answer.

It has been three weeks and still no sign of Miss Broody. I believe she may have died this week behind the shell I noticed wedged in a rock. I think it is possible that she positioned the shell and then was too weak to move it and likely starved. A serpent star has been staying close to the area during most of her disappearance but moved to a new location yesterday. In the past, I sometimes have been able to find a missing octo by locating a serpent and I have been squiting food into the rock in that area with the hope that she would eat but I have not seen any arm movement. The serpent's change of location makes me think she may have died and I cannot get to the shell to check or remove any remains. So far the water is OK and the biologics are well established. I will do extra water changes for the next week and monitor for ammonia but don't know what else I can do.

Five or Six (I still don't have an exact count as I need to see all of them at the same time to be sure) of her young are now recognizable octopuses and are likely to survive. They are eating primarily Cyclop-eeze and less of the live shrimp. I am going to reintroduce some frozen mysis and try adding frozen krill to their nightly feeding since gholland has been having success feeding their brooding mom with several different foods.

I possibly put Sisturus and Medusa in harms way last night. I have mentioned that they are often together and touching each other and sometimes "attack" but never do harm. I went to feed last night and did not notice they were together when I put the Cylop-eeze in the tank over what I thought was one octopus. One fully engulfed the other's mantle with its web and the captured one was struggling to free itself (they have never attached like this nor has one ever had trouble extracting it self). I used the pipette to separate them and they both took shelter in the live rock. Half an hour later they were back at the top of the tank, together and acting normally. I made sure to place the food where there was no direct competition and will continue to be more cautious. Neal mentioned the feeding frenzy instincts of the Humbolts and I wonder if I witnesses something remotely similar.

They are acting normally tonight and were peacefully together near the filter inlet again. This time I started feeding at the other side of the tank and they separated to come feed.

I found one of the babies dead two days ago. It looked quite cannabalized and I hope to take a picture before it decomposes. I had separated one of the babies because it appeared to be aggessive (possibly two since I moved it in a barnicle house) but decided to move it back because of my concerns about feeding density. I don't know if reintroducing one to the group made it a target for agression or if it really is more agressive than the rest and killed for housing (there is plenty of prime realestate). The only other things in the net are a few small shrimp and snails. The clean-up crew could have been munching on one that died naturally but my feeling (hope) is that it was killed by another octopus. I hope I am not going to loose the rest to natural causes. At 2.5 months I think I am down to four juveniles.

FYI a hungry pencil star can make huge holes in a breeder net. I had to transfer all the shells to the net with the small hole (hopefully everyone was still in residence and not running around in the main tank). I would like to find something like a hair net to replace my netting (these are about twice the size of the standard breeder nets and have a plastic grid floor about 1/3 of the way down and I think a hair net would be about the right size). If anyone knows of a place to find a thick one, please post it.

Still no sign of Miss Broody after about 4 weeks. I would have expected to see a body by now (water parms are OK but I am changing out water weekly in stead of bi-weekly) unless she is indeed trapped behind the suspended shell that I can't even touch, let alone investigate.

The four males are still doing OK. The two in the large tank are not as regular about coming out to feed (they are eating more live crab than previously) and are less interactive and more skiddish than they have been. Sisty and Medusa still come out like clockwork but they are often at the top of the tank (yes, I do more frequent water changes on this tank now too) when they are out. Sisty let me pet him for a while this week (I don't try it often) but both males in the smaller tank seem less interested in the human companion.

I think I am down to only three offspring now (I regularly see 3 at one time but there may be a fourth). You just can't get cocky with any success in this hobby. I keep thinking I am missing something important but I keep missing it. There is a possiblilty that the fact that these were inbred effected their mortality BUT I do not find many carcasses. Either they have escaped the net and died (or are not coming to the outer walls, you would never find them in the LR) or they are being consumed (either from an alive state or after natural death) by their sibblings. These little ones do not come out and feed at all like the first group and that also has me puzzled.

The two males in the same tank are also more recluse than they had been (MIA and HideNSeek were always less human sociable than Sisty and Dusa). I will only see them long enough to give a shrimp about every other night and then they quickly vanish.

Sisty and Dusa, on the other hand, continue to greet me nightly and perform at least an hour of ballet. Both sets of males hang out together and are often found touching. Unfortunately, everytime I try to photograph Sisty and Dusa together, they see me and come over to see if there is a food offering. If I give attention to one (usually by rubbing my finger on the tank), you can count on the other to come over and want attention as well (even when they refuse additional food). They have learned an interesting trick. Sisty has done this for quite some time but now Dusa also feeds at the surface and will bring his mantle out of the water in kind of a rolling dance (the third pictures shows part of the movement but they actually bring their full mantle out of the water). When the behavior first started, I changed out water immediately but have since noticed that they only perform the antics when I am known to be present. If most Mercs acted like these two, they would be very popular pets. Unfortunately, I think these are the extreme exception. I also think Dusa would be more timid if he did not follow Sisty's lead.

The pictures were taken with a flash and, unfortunately, reveal their aging much more than in their normal red lighting.

Just because I am afraid their time is getting short, a few more pics of my acrobatic duo, note the requsite cup of coffee:coffee:

Sisty and Dusa seem to be breaking the stereotype for dwarf octos! I love the vids and pics. Do you have any current photos of the babies at this stage?

It would be wonderful if that interactive behavior could be continued through selective breeding... Too bad our girls are laying so many months apart!

Greg

Greg,
Sisty is very special and I was terribly disappointed when Dusa (originally Medusa) started to show large suckers (there is a photo of Sisty trying to mate with Dusa so I was not the only one disappointed). I don't think Dusa would be any different than the other two males if he did not live with Sisty. There have not been any other reports of Mercs interacting and I hand feed a shrimp (no stick) to Sisty every night (sometimes Dusa will take one from my fingers but usually wants the plastic tube delivery). He comes to the front of the glass earlier and earlier (and is now sometimes out before lights out - a bad sign I am afraid). A long time ago, I read that it is likely that if an octopus is human friendly, its offspring will be as well but I can't find where I read it and I have no idea if the person recording the statement was going on anything but heresay. Sisty showed to be different from the rest of his sibblings very early and was always rooming with Dusa (which is why they are housed together). I am thinking (based on one and only one clear observation) that it may be that male octopuses (or at least Mercs) are somewhat social with each other where females are totally recluse from the beginning. Since I only had the one female with the first batch, this is an uneducated observation about the females but both pairs of males tend to hang out together for at least part of the evening.

This is the only photo I have recently tried with this batch of young. These do not come out and eat as well as the first group and I rarely see anything but arms (and you will have a hard time finding any part of the two in this picture :hmm:).

Oops, never mind :oops:. It looks like I did not transfer the picture to my hard drive but it was not a real loss since looking at shells in a net does not convey much info.

All four males are still with me at 11 months and 10 days but they are showing signs of aging. Since Sisturus has always been so active, I have feared he would be my first male to die of old age and I am afraid this will be the case. He is now coming out as early as 7:00 PM with the overhead lights on and seems to be continually hungry (Trapper also always seemed hungry in her final two weeks). He stays primarily white (more clearly observed now that he comes out with the lights on) with only a little patterning. Dusa will also come out once I give Sisty food but his color is better and he generally "goes back to bed" until lights out after checking out the food offering. Sisty stays out but sleeps (eyes closed) on the glass. I have also noticed that his eyes are wide open, even with the lights on but he seems to still be able to see well enough to notice my fingers on the aquarium.

Sisty continues to come out to look for food somewhere between 8:00 and 9:00 PM and is constantly hungry. When offered a freshly killed shrimp, he will try to take your fingers with it. I have been adding more live crabs to the tank as they are disappearing faster (two a week for the tank would survive most of the week until they disappeared until this last month, now I put in two every other or every third day in addition to feeding cyclop-eeze and one dead shore shrimp apiece nightly). Tonight one of them caught a crab very quickly and the other wanted it! Poor focus, I am afraid - not because they separated or moved but because I can't get the autofocus to focus under the red light. They would not separate when I used the flash or put my fingers in the tank. Finally, I offered a third crab and the original capturer kept his meal.

Hey D, you keep finding out new things about these animals all the time, keep up the good work

I Really love reading this post! Thanks and good luck!

As my 4 males approach their birthday they continue to do strange things nightly. HideNSeek came to the front of the tank to his normal spot on the barnacle condos while I was feeding the two remaining hatchlings (approaching 4 months- saw a mantle tonight for the first time in a long time and they are now the size of 1 month old Bandensis ;>) . Mia decided to come out to the tank front wall (most unusual) and then proceeded to try to mate with HideNSeek. While he was attached to the glass he stretched his hectocotylus out to HideNSeek and began exploring (I could see the triangular tip of the arm as it attempted to explore the mantle opening). HideNSeek (I am assuming I know which is which because of the initial approach of HideNSeek to one of his favorite dens) just sat on his barnacle and Mia jumped on top of him about the time I noticed the arm tip. The resulting pose looked very much like Roy's picture of two Merc "mating" and not like the two matings I have observed between HideNSeek and Miss Broody. The difference may well be that Miss Broody was in a den and not in the open or that she was a willing participant or, of course, that she was actually female. After a couple of minutes, HideNSeek managed to free himself and swam off into the tank none the worse for wear.

This is the second "mating" I have observed between two males. Both times it was when there was no available female (Miss Broody has been missing for two months). The mating between Sisty and Medusa was more like the male/female matings of Miss Broody and HideNSeek, where one octopus was in a shell and the other approached and explored with the hectocotylized arm without violence or struggle. Besides their age, it is also notable that Mia has not actually mated as both male/female matings in this tank were the pairing of HideNSeek and Miss Broody.

Sorry for not even being able to provide blurry pics this time but it was either watch or get the camera ...

I have only seen one of the males in the larger tank (I think it is HideNSeek but I am not sure) this week. The little suspect male has left the net again and I have not located him in three days. There is one baby that has remained in the net that rarely leaves her shell and she seems to be doing fine.

Sisty and Dusa continue to greet us nightly and eat well. Dusa has taken to catching crabs a couple of times a week but I have yet to see Sisty catch one of his own. Tonight Dusa carried his crab around while walking on the glass so I was able to get an almost in focus picture. Unfortunately, I missed photographing more strange behavior. Dusa was walking around with his crab and decided to attack Sisty (in their normal, no hurt attack mode). Sisty was minding his own business and not threatening to take the food but Dusa crossed the tank to aggravate him. I am not sure if he was bragging, trying to share or just senile (they are 12 months minus a week today)

Sibling rivalry among octopuses! I love it!!!!

Just out of curiosity, how big are they now, and what was their growth rate over time? Did they stop growing at some age?

Monty,
Great question but I wish you had asked it about 6 months ago. It never occurred to me to measure them on a regular basis :oops: and sadly, I could have since these two are out on the glass nightly. My gut feel is that they have started shrinking in total mass but arm length seems relatively stagnent. The mantle is hard to judge. One night it may appear very small (relative to "normal" and to each other) but as they swim, the mantle gets fuller and they look "normal" again to me. I will try to start taking some measurements to at least give a proper recording of their size at one year. I can say that none of them ever reached the size of Trapper. A rough guess would be 2/3 her size. The males are all about the same size and Miss Broody appeared slightly larger the very few times I saw her out of her den.

Sibling rivalry among octopuses! I love it!!!!

Actually, I see "Sibbling rivalry" very often but it is usually Sisty that has to horn in if he sees Medusa getting food or even just attention. I offer food first to Sisty because he will swim over and attack Dusa if I feed in reverse. If they are together, I will squirt Cyclop-eeze in opposite directions (Sisty's side first) to discourage a food fight. :mrgreen: Fortunately their fighting and attacks have never resulted in harm (no even inking or panic) to either one. Initially I would hold my breath everytime they appeared aggressive but I have accepted the behavior as harmless - I hope aging will not change the outcome.

Measured Sisty and Dusa against the glass and came up with a 1 to 1.5 inch mantle (tip of mantle to top of eyes) and 2.5" - 3" arms. Both sets of measurements (quite a difference in percentage) were taken in various positions but neither set was of extreme stretching.

I am afraid these may be some of the last pictures of Sisturus. Like his mother, he has lost the ability to change color and is now white all the time. Medusa does not pattern fully but still shows the deep red coloration when in the rockwork but Sisty is white all the time and has stopped eating anything but Cyclop-eeze. He seems to be hungry all the time, is still fiesty with Dusa and can hold his own on the tank wall so I am crossing my fingers that he will live for another week and see his birthday.

HideNSeek continues to be very recluse and I am not 100 percent sure if I am seeing HideNSeek or MIA as one has vanished. The remaining adult in the 45 visits HideNSeek's hang outs but acts more like MIA. I have one remaining grandchild of Trapper. She stays in her shell all the time but continues to grow on the shrimp and Cyclop-eeze but I have never seen her wander the net. The escapee male has not been seen since the day after I returned him to the net and has been missing for over a week so I fear he did not survive the tank even though there is food and little (except possibly his father) to hurt him.

If the little girl (just a guess from the brooding behavior) survives, she will live in Sisty and Medusa's tank after they leave. The larger tank hopes to house one of JoeFish's briarius if I can raise one to Kalypso's size. I have ordered a langerie net to cover the current breeder supports because it has a zipper (and there are holes in my current netting as well as no top). I am not sure if the netting will be fine enough at shipping time and may have to come up with an alternate for a few weeks so any suggestions would be appreciated.

The little escapee Merc has not been visible for well over a week and I should have given up on him some time ago but I just didn't want to believe HideNSeek ate him or that he starved to death so I have been looking at varying times every night. TONIGHT I spotted him! I failed to catch him and return him to the net but he seems to be doing OK. I am not sure if he is just eating the Cyclop-eeze that I feed HideNSeek and the other surviving juvenile or if the small pods I put in last week (trying to get a population started for JoeFish's Briarius) have been part of his meals.

Unfortunately, Sisty is now coming out during the day - not just early but during real daytime. He seems to be going very much like Trapper but still has arm strength so I am hoping he has a little time yet. Monday will be the one year mark for the first hatchling. He was also showing (for the first time) a true cork-screw with his arm tips (not the typical feeding movement). I took a picture today but my printer's USB link has started acting up and the sun is lighting the sky (and I have not yet gone to bed - see why I keep Merc :razz:) so I will see if there is a viable image tomorrow.

This is probably my best picture of Sisty, unfortunately, it was taken to show the cork screw that he has acquired in his arms and his all white coloration. It does a good job at displaying his enlarged suckers. If you enlarge it you can see the double enlargements that he grew early on. He still comes to the front of the tank every night :grin: and is active. He has started to wait until dark now (after almost a month of coming out when we feed Octane) but he stays completely white even in the live rock.

Medusa has been very angry the last couple of days and has been quite red. No apparent reason and I do pretty heavy water changes weekly since they have been getting old. I fed them late yesterday and when I tried to give him a shirmp he attacked my hand and would not let go. He started squirting (it appeared to be more like spitting from the beak area rather than the siphon but I am not 100 percent sure) but refused to release my hand. I picked him up a full 5 inches out of the tank and he still did not want to let go. I have not had the Mercs to do this since they were dime sized. I guess even octos get crotchity in their old age. However, tonight he seemed back to normal.

HideNSeek has started coming back to the barnacle condo regularly again and has been feeding more normally (he would disappear for a couple of days at time and hide if he saw me after MIA disappeared). I included a very poor picture but I don't know that he has any others posted in the journal :neutral:

My little female was out of her shell around 11:00 tonight. This is the first time I have seen her completely away from her den. I thought about trying a picture but she spooked (ie inked) when I moved too quickly so I opted not to try since a flash would have been required. Surprisingly she did not return to her shell and I got a good look at her.

The little male (sex designations are personality suggestions only) is still loose in the main tank and I have not seen him for a day but I did put a mini barnacle condo close to where he had been hiding so I hope he will choose to take up residence.

I found Wiley's newest hang out. He was not pleased with the discovery but at least I got a photo :wink: as he went looking for an undiscovered den

Great pics D!

So the little runaway finally has a name eh? What about the less rebellious one? :wink:

Do you have thoughts of trying to breed another generation if it turns out that you really do have a male and female? And do you remember what age the enlarged suckers started showing on the males?

We dread seeing that corkscrew behavior in Varys, but we know it is coming...

Greg,

I plan to put Wiley and the "yet to be named but I think is a female" octo together in Sisty and Medusa's tank. I would prefer that Wiley stay put in the net so that I don't have to worry about reintroducing them but I think I am going to be lucky to catch him when it is time for the transfer. If the lack of success with this brood was due to in breeding, then a mating will not likely produce viable young. However, Colin mentioned that cuttle research did not have inbreeding problems for many more generations so we will see what nature decides.

I think I noticed Sisty's suckers when I put him in the larger tank (5 months) but Medusa's did not start showing for at least a month and maybe two later. If you blow up the above pictures (double click then click again) you will notice Wiley's third right arm is curled upwards, unlike the other six arms that are visable - I am wondering where the eighth is. I did not see this before but your question "made me look" :grin:. He is 5 months old.

Determining a female is harder. Both Miss Broody and Medusa stayed in dens for a long time where MIA, HideNSeek and Sisturus altered their sleeping quarters frequently and move about the tank nightly. There is a log picture of Sisty trying to mate with Medusa somewhere around the time Miss Broody and HideNSeek mated. The intraction between Medusa and Sisty changed when Medusa matured.

I am concerned about Medusa becoming stressed when Sisty is no longer in the tank since they have been together since birth. Physically, you would not guess that they are the same age and Medusa can still fully pattern but his personality has changed greatly in the last couple of days. He even tried to climb out of the tank tonight and successfully climbed almost totally out of the water. If both octos acted this way I would have done an immediate water change (in spite of the fact that I changed out the usual 5 gallons on Sunday) but I finally realized I had the overhead lights still on (they are usually off at 9:00 ish) at 12:30. Once I turned off the lights he return to his normal night white color and stopped the wall climbing.

I thought we lost Wiley as I had not seen him since the photograph two weeks ago but last night he was looking for food toward the front of the tank. I still could not catch him and he disappeared once more into the LR when I tried but at least he is alive and eating. The "female" does not leave her den much and it is hard to tell if she is eating (other than the fact that she is alive at 5.5 month old). I have only seen her out hunting once and she rejects anything of any size I try to hand feed her (frozen Mysis, dead shore shrimp, snails). I keep live shrimp in her net and they either escape to the tank or she catches them (I have seen her ignore them or push them away). I hope Paul can get me some really small crabs next order now that it is spring. I had expected to move both babies to the 15 gallon by now but the current residence are still, unexpectedly coming out and feeding nightly :razz: and I am not sure how they would accept the food sized babies.