I was wondering what kind of food is generally best for baby cuttles. i heard that mysid shrimp were a good fit, but i think that they might pick on the cuttles and i wanted your opinions. i've heard talk of copepods. i looked it up on wikipedia but that didn't tell me anything i didn't already figure out. what exactly are the virtues of a copepod?

Small copepods like Tigger pods from Reef Nutrition are only good for the first few days. Live mysids are perfect. Even though I have access to free amhipods, I have decided to buy mysids because they are just a great food that baby cuttles, at least bandensis, take to immediately and with gusto. There is no issue with mysids hurting cuttle babies.

Keeping live mysids can be challenging because they can be cannibalistic, so if you don't have a flow through kind of system to keep them in, try to keep on top of your ordering. There might be a lot to talk about here, but I'm sick right now. :smile:

For wild caught mysids try
www.aquaculturestore.com

For cultured mysids try
http://www.reed-mariculture.com/mysidshrimp/

I bought live mysis from the auaculture store to culture, tossed them in my unused 12 nanocube and added some sand, Live rock, and some Ulva and amphipods and I've been feeding ground up formula one flakes to them and there population has been stedily large. This species likes to spend its time on open sand bed to keep that in mind. Unfortunately seacrop took bandensis eggs off there site the day I went to order them, so I've been waiting around for them to show up some where, but I have a nice strong culture of at least 300 individuals of different ages going in my little tank. I also got some great little tunicates going in the Ulva too.

My 8 cuttles went through 500 mysids in less than a week.

I would like to qualify posting my method by saying that Winkin' and Blinkin' are the first cuttlefish I have tried to raise. They were purchased from Seacrop as new hatches, not eggs, and are now 6 weeks old, growing consistantly and appear healthy.

The first two weeks I fed a combination of new hatched brine shrimp (not over 8 hours hatched, providing egg sack nutrition but no digestion difficulties from shell development), live mysis (minimal quantities), copepods and frozen cyclop-eeze. After 2 weeks I introduced very small shore shrimp and continued with twice a day feedings of the Cyclop-eeze but eliminated the copepods and brine. At 6 weeks, I feed Cyclop-eeze only once a day and as many live small shore shrimp as they will consume in a day (usually 4 but sometimes 6 - I restock daily to ensure 6 in the net at the beginning of the day).

The cyclop-eeze is consumed by both the shrimp and the babies and is gone from the net in no more than 15 minutes (either by consumption or being washed out by the current). So far both my 5 baby Mercatoris and my two Bandensis are growing well with this feeding regime (the Cyclop-eeze remains in the net longer with the octos). There is not enough observation yet to see if the Cyclop-eeze provides true benefit but, so far, survival appears to be positively impacted.

Thales,
Drink some chicken soup (homemade from real chicken)! I have been looking forward to your presentation next week and you are simply not allowed to be ill!

Thanks D - I had a bad day yesterday, but am better today. I fly back home tomorrow and then onto FL on Friday. :D Thanks for the kind words, and I wouldn't trust English/Irish chicken soup as far as I could throw it!

On to cuttles -
Did you see the cuttles strike at the Cyclop-eeze and baby brine?

Thales, looks like I need to split my cultures up then, maybe move one into the 29 gallonI am culturing LR in as well.

At least. I gave up on trying to culture mysids because I would rather concentrate on raising cuttles rather than their food. To do it the 'proper' recommended way you'll need a lot more than two tanks. :grin:
http://www.seahorse.org/library/articles/mysisCulturing.shtml

Thales,
I never saw (see Winkin. Blinkin and Nod in Journals for an "at the time" observation) the cuttles eat anything during the first two weeks. I still don't see them strike at food and I don't think it is because I don't observe the tank often enough. I withdrew the brine and mysis when I saw shrimp disappearing and tails sticking out between the arms though :grin: I believe they intentionally don't eat when I can see them but neither moves away when I squirt Cyclop-eeze in the net, even when I put it right on top of them and I notice the arms twiching. This is particularly significant with Blinkin since he will not stay in direct line of site once he notices me and will ink if I try to observe him from underneath the net. I had used the kitchen sink method (throw a little of everything in the mix) with the baby octos and only lost the one that climbed out of the water (there were only 6 hatchling total and that in it self may be a significant factor). I am coming to believe that a more varied diet might have benefit and that several different sizes of food should be offered, especially with new hatch.

At 6 weeks, I also put in a small amount of frozen mysis (large size from PE but only 3-4) that is enriched with Cyclop-eeze. It disappears but I don't know if it is the cuttles or the live shrimp that consume it (the frozen shrimp are too large to go through the netting).

I was able to catch several new born gulf pipes the last time my male released babies and tried feeding only Cyclop-eeze from the get go but lost all of them the first week. They are very difficult to raise for the first 3 weeks so I can't say the experiment was a total failure without trying it multiple times. I have found that the larger babies are more likely to survive and I will go back to using brine for the first week the next time (my mandarines find them a delightful change in diet so I only have the opportunity to try raising them when I actually see them being born and get there first).

I don't think that they are eating the cyclop-eeze. :grin: Too small, not moving and such.

I have seen newly hatched cuttles strike at RN Tigger pods (essentially live Cyclop-eeze), but only for the first few days. After that they ingnored it. I also tried Cyclop-eeze, but didn't see any interest.

At two days I see baby cuttles strike at amphipods, which sometimes get away. However, I have never seen mysids given at the same age get away from the baby cuttles.

The only food I have seen baby cuttles eat without hesitation in front of me has been mysis. When I fed amphipods, I almost never saw them strike.

I have no idea if a varied diet would be more beneficial to baby cuttles or not - especially if we have no way to tell what they are actually eating and what they aren't eating. My feeling is that it is more important to get them the food they will eat most that is most nutritious, and so far that seems to be mysis.

Now, I could be wrong about the cypolp-eeze, but since you are feeding with a kitchen sink method there just isn't any way to be sure.

The only reason I bring it up is because I worry about people deciding to raise baby bandensis on cyclop-eeze based on your report, but the reality being that they aren't actually eating it. People are still trying to raise them on enriched brine and having dismal results because of old, persistent reports of it being a suitable food. Anecdotal evidence has been a major problem in other areas of the saltwater hobby, so I am cautious when I see it. :smile:

Like I said above, I have stopped with the amphipods and switched to just mysis starting a couple days after hatching and the growth rates I have seen have been amazing. Its also neat to see baby cuttles catch mysid after mysid after mysid which chewing on the first mysid.

I have also been rethinking my stance on net breeders for the reasons you mention. I recently built a baby nursery - basically a small tank plumbed into the main system - with a sand bottom, and I have seem more activity from the cuttles in there than I ever saw in net breeders. The net breeders do make a great, convenient way to keep baby cuttles in a larger tank, but perhaps the constantly exposed nature of the container make the babies uncomfortable (hows that for anecdotal!)

RR

I saw more color patterns on my cuttles in the first day in the tank than in the six weeks or so they were in the net breeder. The breeder is a very convenient way to keep them, but my experience seems consistent with yours.

How big is your baby nursery? The nice thing about the breeder is its small enough that I can put x number of mysids in, know they'll be seen, and be able to keep track of if they're eaten. I'd be worried about losing that capacity in even a two-and-a-half gallon tank.

Dan

The net breeder I am using is at least 1.5 x (possibly 2 x) larger than the standard affair (I am bringing one to TONMOCON to show because I have found it so versatile). I have it situated so that the overflow from my filter is in direct contact with one side and I have a rather large (for a net breeder) piece of LR in the net that provides almost a cave. I think the set up may come closer to emulating Thales' small tank than the typical net breeder. Winkin and Blinkin show high patterning and color change (I think the LR is the primary reason along with the white, rather than blue or green, plastic supports). I suspect they are ready to graduate to their first tank but will wait until after TONMOCON so that I can monitor their food consumption.

Thales, I have been paying close attention when I feed the cyclop-eeze and up until today could not guarantee that they were eating it. Since I feed very small shore shrimp and I know the shrimp eat the Cyclop-eeze, I also know the cuttles are ingesting some of it indirectly but today Winkin actually came up to the top of the rock when I added the evenings food and I am quite sure she was eating it (Blinkin will not come out from under the LR when he sees me but does not ink or leave the area when I squirt the Cyclop-eeze close to or even on top of him). Both appear to be "grazing" with their arms when I squirt it near them.

I fully agree that feeding ONLY brine (and I am very careful to specify that brine must be new hatch) or ONLY Cyclop-eeze should not be the message I communicate but these two are so fat and healthy looking I hesitate not to report what I see as it occurs. My fear is, of course, that further down the road there could be health problems if the supplement is not fully suitable. I would like to encourage others with access to a more scientific environment to add it to their list of options to try but perhaps I should only mention my attempts in their journal until these two live out their lives and I can fully document a complete life span. Unfortunately, with only one trial, it would still only be anecdotal.

My nursery is 20 x20 x8 with a sand bottom. Within the first week, the cuttles were hanging out at the far end away from the current where the mysids get 'blown' and chowing on them within a minute. It seems to me the sand bottom is what makes the difference. Perhaps without it they feel constantly exposed. Oh - there is nothing but sand in the nursery.

D- You should be mentioning your attempts everywhere! I am just cautious when it comes to stuff like feeding baby cuttles because I have seen so many die from people trying what they think they heard somewhere as a food. :grin: Anecdotal evidence is important stuff, its just that its easy for people to grab onto it as fact. Nothing we can do about it except be careful.
BTW, very cool about the C-eeze. Next time I have baby cuttles I will be giving it a try.
Perhaps now that NRCC has some of these guys, some real science will be done on them.

RR

Cuttlegirl,
Speaking of the NRCC, has anyone reported back recently about Baby-A's eggs? I was hoping we would hear that they had started breeding.

Thales,

I also tried directly feeding the CPz to the mysid I had left after the cuttles were eating the live shrimp. Unfortunately, there was not a lot of motion in that tank and I was not as consistent as I should have been at trying to feed them so my results don't merit close inspection but unlike both pods and shrimp, I never saw any red mysis.

My net breeder is much smaller, less than half that size but I only have two cuttles (I'm waiting out a storm before leaving the office so I can't measure). Are you seeing color and texture changes yet since there is a consistent background?

I cultured my mysis on frozen CPz for about two weeks untill I became lazy.

Opcn,
I was avoiding the L word and have to admit that the F word (no, not THAT word, Forgetful) is part of the reason I am not sure if the CPz would have been a good substitute for new hatch BB's. The fact that I did not see little red bugs swimming suggested that the food may have been too large so I am glad to know you showed a positive result.

Thales,


My net breeder is much smaller, less than half that size but I only have two cuttles (I'm waiting out a storm before leaving the office so I can't measure). Are you seeing color and texture changes yet since there is a consistent background?

The net breeders I used were small too. :D
I was seeing color changes in the first week, but the texture changes seem to start later. I just got home and my current babies are about an inch now - massive! - and they are doing all the things adults do color and texture wise.

Thales,
Mine are about a week behind yours (also purchased from Seacrop) but with the LR I have been seeing color and texture after the first week (well maybe two weeks to see a lot of difference:tongue:). I have been trying to determine how their size compares with the "sizing" chart you put up and if yours are about an inch including arms, mine have caught up! I do notice that they look way bigger after they eat and then slim back a bit in an hour or so. I keep trying to come up with something to put in the tank to use as a growth chart. Knowing the thickness of the plexiglass was only a little helpful but I keep looking for something that will show up better in photos.

I still haven't seen them actually catch a shrimp (just part of the shrimp hanging out of the mouth) but Blinkin let me see him for about 5 minutes tonight.

It is so entertaining to see Winkin walking around on the LR. Are the two arms they walk around on specialized arms? Blinkin holds his arms entirely differently but I may be seeing a defensive posture since he has only allowed me to watch him this evening.

If you don't mind me asking...what is Cyclop-eeze? I never herd of it.

Sam,
Cyclop-eeze (to the best of my understanding) is an engineered copapod developed for feeding young fish and plankton eating inverts. It was developed to replace baby brine shrimp as a first food and is more nutritious (bbs is considered a poor food but one of the few almost everything will eat). It comes frozen and freeze dried (I only use the frozen) and is unfortunately, pretty expensive because of the shipping requirements. I am personally sold on its value for Mercatoris - both young and aging (Drs Foster and Smith has it in their frozen foods if you are interested).

I have tried (one time) using it as the only food for new born pipe fish without success. The two I currently have (two days old) I am feeding new hatch to for at least two weeks before trying the cyclop-eeze.

My feather dusters and other soft corals seem to thrive on it (I also feed my anemones black worm so it is not their only food). There does not seem to be much in my tanks that won't eat it (including snails, crabs and star/serpant star/feather stars). I have not tried it on baby seahorses.

Oh, thanks. Is it less expensive than mysid shrimp? And is so, is it reliable as the only food for baby cuttles at least until they are a little bigger? Lastly, good luck with you pipe fish! :)

Oh, thanks. Is it less expensive than mysid shrimp? And is so, is it reliable as the only food for baby cuttles at least until they are a little bigger? Lastly, good luck with you pipe fish! :)


Baby cuttles need live food, it is difficult to convince them to eat frozen food (although not impossible). Cyclopeeze could be used as a supplement (as in dwhatley's case), but mysids are probably the best first food for them. They will eat live amphipods, Thales has had success feeding his baby cuttles 'pods and then live marine shrimp. Thales has since switched to mysids as a first live food for cuttles. In my experience (and Thales) cuttlefish fed live food tend to live longer. The first few weeks of a cuttle's life are expensive!!!

I forgot that Cyclop-eeze was frozen. So mysids are still the best food for cuttle babies. Can you suggest what would be good for baby cuttles after their too big for mysids? I read something about small shore shrimp.

I got my shore shrimp from aquaculturestore.com.

Have you read Thales article? It gives good background information on cuttlefish.

http://www.tonmo.com/cephcare/cuttlefish.php

Also this thread has a time-line of my cuttlefish's lives.

http://www.tonmo.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6501

As Jennifer stressed (and as I noted with my failure with the pipes), the Cyclop-eeze is only a supplementary consideration, not a substitute for live. I add supplemental vitamins, calcium and occassional iodine to my tanks because I have seen a difference using these additions. Cyclop-eeze is another of these suppliments that I have become a believer in. It is, however, a daily food for my baby octopuses in addition to any shrimp they catch (roughly 2 a week). My cuttlefish has switched to regular hunting and consumes about 5 shrimp each day and may or may not eat the Cyclop-eeze directly at this time. IMO it is a nutritous food and the feeder shrimp in the tank consume it (evidenced by their coloration) so the cuttle has benefit whether or not it now eats it directly or only by consumption of the shrimp.

I think part of the problem with trying to use the Cyclop-eeze with the pipefish is its size (baby gulf pipefish are VERY tiny). These two are still doing well on the new hatch brine and I will continue feeding this way until they are larger, then mix the brine with the Cyclop-eeze until they can eat small frozen mysis (gulf pipes are easy to teach to eat dead/frozen foods, other pipes may not switch so easily, some cannot eat larger foods even as adults).

I am hoping Roy will officially experiment with Cyclop-eeze and compare it to new hatch brine as a first food for octopuses.

Thanks for the links and info guys.

Hey, one more question on feeding. In the article they said that you should feed cuttles at least once a day, but I have read posts on people feeding their cuttles 5 shrimp a day etc... So how much should I really feed them? Do I just feed them as much as they can eat?

When they are babies, I feed them two or three times a day. When they are very small they will eat one mysid a feeding. When they hit a week or two they will start taking multiple mysids at each feeding. When they move to bigger food I drop down to twice a day, and at 3 or 4 months to once a day - though they will eat more.

Is it possible to overfeed them?

Kind of. If you feed to much, they may collect and kill the food, but not eat it.

I see. So you can only pollute the tank? Well, thanks for answering my questions. I'm hoping to get a 200gal tank soon for a group of 8-10 bandensis or less but the aquarium isn't ready yet. I'm so exited and I hope this goes well. I've wanted to keep/breed cuttles since as far back as I can remember...

When I cycle the aquarium, there is supposed to be things in there right?

you can either cycle with some hardy fish like damsels, or acclimated mollies, or you can just buy a couple of jumbo raw shrimp from your grocer to get the cycle started.

And of course, you can't keep thoses damsels or mollies when you get your octopus, so you'd better have a plan for putting them somewhere else.

Nancy

If you add enough fresh live rock, you do not need fish or shrimp. If your liverock is not so alive the frozen shrimp will provide ammonia to get things started (let it decay in the tank, if you do NOT see a nitrite jump, add another). The fish you are using, particularly the damsels, are very difficult to catch once you put LR in the tank and really don't benefit anything but visual stimulation while your are cycling. I have a pair of Chromis in my 45 gallon reef that have proven impossible to catch, even with the on going attempts of 4 different people and a variety of nets and methods. Fortunately, the only reason for wanting to move them (they were my son's initially and donated to my tank when he converted his to a preditor tank) was to put them in another tank and they are not a major problem where they are (not so if you want an octopus in the tank). Your LFS may accept your current fish (if you can catch them) in exchange for product.

Just to be clear: Please don't use fish or any other animals to cycle a tank. The belief that you need to do so is outdated and incorrect. :grin;